## Most turn-1 damage in a deck that can't go infinite

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metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
Hiya, so a bunch of us on another forum were trying to work out the most damage we could do in one turn using a deck that contains no infinite combos. Bouncing ideas back and forth, the best deck we came up with was actually pretty wild; figure I may as well show this to the combo forum and get input:

http://www.rpgdl.com/metroidcomposite/phpconversion.php

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

baynne
Joined May 2007
170 Posts
that first combo alone by magic standards could be deemed infinite. and reading further, you claim the number "can't be written in scientific notation"... aka infinite. maybe just my perception... some crazy ideas in there.
crandor
Joined Jun 2004
2447 Posts
Hiya, so a bunch of us on another forum were trying to work out the most damage we could do in one turn using a deck that contains no infinite combos. Bouncing ideas back and forth, the best deck we came up with was actually pretty wild; figure I may as well show this to the combo forum and get input:

http://www.rpgdl.com/metroidcomposite/phpconversion.php

We've already done something similar (with more restrictions, though), but I like your write-up a lot. Where'd you find a calculator that could handle that many digits?
[indent]("...and then we tap Serra's Sanctum for
66,185,228,434,044,942,951,864,067,458,396,061,614,989,522,267,577,311,297,
802,947,435,570,493,724,401,440,549,267,868,490,798,926,773,634,494,383,968,
047,143,923,956,857,140,205,406,402,740,536,087,446,083,831,052,036,848,232,
439,995,904,404,992,798,007,514,718,326,043,410,570,379,830,870,463,780,085,
260,619,444,417,205,199,197,123,751,210,704,970,352,727,833,755,425,876,102,
776,028,267,313,405,809,429,548,880,554,782,040,765,277,562,828,362,884,238,
325,465,448,520,348,307,574,943,345,990,309,941,642,666,926,723,379,729,598,
185,834,735,054,732,500,415,409,883,868,361,423,159,913,770,812,218,772,711,
901,772,249,553,153,402,287,759,789,517,121,744,336,755,350,465,901,655,205,
184,917,370,974,202,405,586,941,211,065,395,540,765,567,663,193,297,173,367,
254,230,313,612,244,182,941,999,500,402,388,195,450,053,080,385,548 mana.")[/indent]
BTW, you should use To Arms! rather than Burst of Energy if you have 4X Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker in play (or however many you have with Minion Reflector). [smallcaps]Edit:[/smallcaps] Forgot To Arms! cantrips. Use Call to Glory. [smallcaps]Edit 2:[/smallcaps] To Arms! might still work if you include Words of Worship (giving you life to pay to Channel), but that might go infinite. It's probably better to just use Call to Glory. [smallcaps]Edit 3:[/smallcaps] I see now that Burst of Energy wasn't used in your final set-up, so the point is moot.

There's a link to the one we did in my sig., but it's archived, so you can't read much of it. In the version on these boards, we had 6 turns, but card-draw and anything else that used your library or gave you access to more cards was forbidden. Only having 13 cards available, we didn't use all of the tricks you have listed (not to mention some weren't printed yet), but we did have Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Doubling Season/Opalescence, which we got into play with Eureka like you use. We used Awakening tokens, Freed From the Real, and Calciform Pools-type lands.

[smallcaps]Edit 4:[/smallcaps] I think your Fork/Regrowth business can go infinite with Willbender. Suppose you've played Fork targeting Regrowth and let all the Replicate copies of Fork resolve. The card Fork resolves, putting a Regrowth on the stack targeting a card in the graveyard (note that the card Fork is not in the graveyard when you choose the new target). Now, use Willbender to change the target of the top copy of Regrowth to Fork. Assuming that playing the Radiate you've been recurring with Regrowth can let you produce at least more than it costs (which it obviously does) and get a Willbender face down, you now have infinite mana: you can play Fork Replicating once, recur the Radiate, get the mana you produce from it, turn a Willbender face down, and get the Fork back into your hand. This costs plus whatever startup costs are associated with the Radiate loop and getting a face-down Willbender.

Speaking of the Willbender, it doesn't work how you want with Minion Reflector. Copiable values are modified by being face-down:
[indent]706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether a kicker cost was paid, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by "as . . . enters the battlefield" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.

Example: Chimeric Staff is an artifact that reads ": Chimeric Staff becomes an X/X artifact creature until end of turn." Clone is a creature that reads, "You may have Clone enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature on the battlefield." After a Staff has become a 5/5 artifact creature, a Clone enters the battlefield as a copy of it. The Clone is an artifact, not a 5/5 artifact creature. (The copy has the Staff's ability, however, and will become a creature if that ability is activated.)

Example: Clone enters the battlefield as a copy of a face-down Grinning Demon (a creature with morph ). The Clone is a colorless 2/2 creature with no name, no types, no abilities, and no mana cost. It will still be face up. Its controller can't pay to turn it face up.[/indent]
You should use Backslide or Weaver of Lies or resign yourself to replaying Willbender every time you want to change a target (at which point you should just use an instant or sorcery, I expect).

[smallcaps]Edit 5:[/smallcaps] You also don't have to use Willbender nearly as much as you seem to think because Fork and Rings of Brighthearth let you change targets already. You should only have to use Willbender on the original spell/ability. (Replicate is a different story; you choose the targets for those copies all at once, so you need Willbender to fix the Replicated Regrowths, for example, but not the Forked Regrowths.)
metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
We've already done something similar (with more restrictions, though), but I like your write-up a lot. Where'd you find a calculator that could handle that many digits?

Typed "large number calculator" into google.

http://world.std.com/~reinhold/BigNumCalc.html

Several programming languages would have also worked.

[smallcaps]Edit:[/smallcaps] Forgot To Arms! cantrips. Use Call to Glory. [smallcaps]Edit 2:[/smallcaps] To Arms! might still work if you include Words of Worship (giving you life to pay to Channel), but that might go infinite. It's probably better to just use Call to Glory.

The opening is just an example of the kind of thing to expect out of the article. We're not actually using Burst of Energy or Serra Sanctum. Yeah, we've had Words of Worship in some versions of the deck (no it doesn't go infinite--you pay 1 mana and you get 5 mana--not a problem as long as you only draw cards using spells)--ultimately it wasn't worth the card slot--higher-layer cards worked better.

There's a link to the one we did in my sig., but it's archived, so you can't read much of it. In the version on these boards, we had 6 turns, but card-draw and anything else that used your library or gave you access to more cards was forbidden. Only having 13 cards available, we didn't use all of the tricks you have listed (not to mention some weren't printed yet), but we did have Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Doubling Season/Opalescence, which we got into play with Eureka like you use. We used Awakening tokens, Freed From the Real, and Calciform Pools-type lands.

Awakening won't help us much--we're not going to hit an upkeep. Freed From the Real would make us go infinite (Kiki-Jiki can tap to produce blue mana...albeit indirectly). Earlier versions of the deck had Voltaic Construct and Mycosynth Lattice, but yeah we were able to pull better numbers by removing untap effects from the deck (allowing us to put in cards that could easily go infinite with untap effects).

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

crandor
Joined Jun 2004
2447 Posts
Typed "large number calculator" into google.

http://world.std.com/~reinhold/BigNumCalc.html

Several programming languages would have also worked.

I tried programming it once before and got a core dump. I was using Scheme because it's supposed to not have size limits on variables, but it's not very efficient compared to other languages, so my computer couldn't handle it. I probably wasn't using very efficient programming methods, either.

Awakening won't help us much--we're not going to hit an upkeep. Freed From the Real would make us go infinite (Kiki-Jiki can tap to produce blue mana...albeit indirectly). Earlier versions of the deck had Voltaic Construct and Mycosynth Lattice, but yeah we were able to pull better numbers by removing untap effects from the deck (allowing us to put in cards that could easily go infinite with untap effects).

Yeah, just sharing

[smallcaps]Edit:[/smallcaps] Shouldn't you also Replicate the Heat Shimmer in layer 18? You can use the mana from the first however many to get more Replicate copies of Radiate. Should add another layer, yeah?
metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
[smallcaps]Edit 4:[/smallcaps] I think your Fork/Regrowth business can go infinite with Willbender. Suppose you've played Fork targeting Regrowth and let all the Replicate copies of Fork resolve. The card Fork resolves, putting a Regrowth on the stack targeting a card in the graveyard

Oh, huh, I hadn't read Fork closely and assumed it became a copy of the spell (as opposed to putting a copy on the stack when it resolves). Yeah, it'll probably have to be cut from the deck.

Speaking of the Willbender, it doesn't work how you want with Minion Reflector.

I'm aware Willbender doesn't work with Minion Reflector. Bounce and replay Willbender is and only needed starting at about once every 20-th layer resolution, so the amount of mana is pretty irrelevant.

You should use Backslide or Weaver of Lies or resign yourself to replaying Willbender every time you want to change a target (at which point you should just use an instant or sorcery, I expect).

Did have Master of the Veil at one point (copy his ability once with Rings of Brightearth) but it's no longer needed when I already have ways in the deck to bounce creatures.

[smallcaps]Edit 5:[/smallcaps] You also don't have to use Willbender nearly as much as you seem to think because Fork and Rings of Brighthearth let you change targets already. You should only have to use Willbender on the original spell/ability. (Replicate is a different story; you choose the targets for those copies all at once, so you need Willbender to fix the Replicated Regrowths, for example, but not the Forked Regrowths.)

The Fork was also getting replicated the max possible number of times when it was played, so yes, Willbender was needed there. (Though as mentioned, will need to cut Fork).

Yes, the Holistic Wisdom Rings of Brightearth copies need to be redirected with Willbender--the first one to resolve gets the Regrowth back to your hand, and then all subsequent copies have lost their Regrowth target in the graveyard (for obvious reasons you can't run two copies of Regrowth). EDIT: (Remember, Rings of Brightearth are triggered, so you must pay them all at the same time).

EDIT:
[smallcaps]Edit:[/smallcaps] Shouldn't you also Replicate the Heat Shimmer in layer 18? You can use the mana from the first however many to get more Replicate copies of Radiate. Should add another layer, yeah?

Unless I'm mistaken it can be replicated one time only--there's no particular benefit to letting Heat Shimmer hit the graveyard when you could be using your Regrowth resolutions to return Radiate instead. And...replicating Heat Shimmer is about as much of an effect as a single resolution of Radiate.

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

mqj
Joined Apr 2008
4086 Posts
Hiya, so a bunch of us on another forum were trying to work out the most damage we could do in one turn using a deck that contains no infinite combos. Bouncing ideas back and forth, the best deck we came up with was actually pretty wild; figure I may as well show this to the combo forum and get input:

http://www.rpgdl.com/metroidcomposite/phpconversion.php

What's the highest, non-infinite-combo damage you can do in one turn?
The rules of this game are simple. You have a Vintage-legal deck. Your opponent has all Islands.dec. Your deck must not have a way to go infinite (sometimes these can be very subtle, so watch out!) You can assume all chance events go the way you want them to (perfect draw, win all your coinflips). You may not have more than 60 cards in your deck, and your sideboard has 0 cards (so no, you can't make your deck 74 cards by copying Burning Wish 14 times).
What's the most damage you can deal? This was the question we asked ourselves, and this article describes the outcome of our mad science.

Assummptions:
"In one turn" means in a particular turn of my choosing.
One turn consists of five phases, in this order: beginning, precombat main, combat, postcombat main, and ending.
All permanents start on the battlefield untapped.

Show

I'll just do 18 cards plus 6 for basic lands and one card to draw.

1 Opalescence
4 Doubling Season
4 Paradox Haze are enchanting you.
3 Copy Enchantment are copies of Followed Footsteps and are all enchanting you.
1 Copy Enchantment is not copying anything.
4 Followed Footsteps are enchanting the Copy Enchantment that is not copying anything.
1 Rhys the Redeemed
1 Mass Hysteria
6 basic lands
1 card to draw

--- Untap ---

--- Upkeep 1 ---
4 Followed Footsteps trigger (ff1 ff2 ff3 ff4) and are put on the stack.
7 Paradox Hazes trigger and are put on the stack.

Let the 7 Paradox Haze triggers resolve and you get 7 additional upkeep steps.

Resolve ff1 and put a token that's a copy of Copy Enchantment onto the battlefield.
There are 4 Doubling Seasons.
This makes it 2^4 number of tokens that are copies of Copy Enchantment.
Have them all copy Doubling Season.
There are 4 + 2^4 = 20 Doubling Seasons.

Resolve ff2 and put a token that's a copy of Copy Enchantment onto the battlefield.
There are 20 Doubling Seasons.
This makes it 2^20 number of tokens that are copies of Copy Enchantment.
Have them all copy Doubling Season.
There are 20 + 2^20 = 1,048,596 Doubling Seasons.

Resolve ff3 and put a token that's a copy of Copy Enchantment onto the battlefield.
There are 1,048,596 Doubling Seasons.
This makes it 2^1,048,596 number of tokens that are copies of Copy Enchantment.
Have them all copy Doubling Season.
There are 1,048,596 + 2^1,048,596 Doubling Seasons.

Resolve ff4 and put a token that's a copy of Copy Enchantment onto the battlefield.
There are 1,048,596 + 2^1,048,596 Doubling Seasons.
This makes it 2^(1,048,596 + 2^1,048,596) number of tokens that are copies of Copy Enchantment.
Have them all copy Followed Footsteps that enchants Copy Enchantment that is not copying anything.
There are 4 + 2^(1,048,596 + 2^1,048,596) Followed Footsteps.

Let f be a function describing the number of Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.
Let f(0) = 4
f(n) = f(n-1) + 2^f(n-1)

For example
f(0) = 4
f(1) = 4 + 2^4 = 4 + 16 = 20
f(2) = 20 + 2^20 = 20 + 1,048,576 = 1,048,596
f(3) = 1,048,596 + 2^1,048,596

There are f(3) Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.
There are 4 + 2^f(3) Followed Footsteps on the battlefield.

--- Upkeep 2 ---
(4 + 2^(1,048,596 + 2^1,048,596) Followed Footsteps trigger and are put on the stack.)

4 + 2^f(3) Followed Footsteps trigger (ff1 ff2 ff3 ... ff2+2^f(3) ff3+2^f(3) ff4+2^f(3)) and are put on the stack.

Resolve ff1 and put a token that's a copy of Copy Enchantment onto the battlefield.
There are f(3) Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.
This makes it 2^f(3) number of tokens that are copies of Copy Enchantment.
Have them all copy Doubling Season.
There are f(4) Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.

Resolve ff2 and put a token that's a copy of Copy Enchantment onto the battlefield.
There are f(4) Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.
This makes it 2^f(4) number of tokens that are copies of Copy Enchantment.
Have them all copy Doubling Season.
There are f(5) Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.

Resolve ff3 and put a token that's a copy of Copy Enchantment onto the battlefield.
There are f(5) Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.
This makes it 2^f(5) number of tokens that are copies of Copy Enchantment.
Have them all copy Doubling Season.
There are f(6) Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.

...

Resolve ff2+2^f(3) and put a token that's a copy of Copy Enchantment onto the battlefield.
There are f(4+2^f(3)) Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.
This makes it 2^f(4+2^f(3)) number of tokens that are copies of Copy Enchantment.
Have them all copy Doubling Season.
There are f(5+2^f(3)) Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.

Resolve ff3+2^f(3) and put a token that's a copy of Copy Enchantment onto the battlefield.
There are f(5+2^f(3)) Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.
This makes it 2^f(5+2^f(3)) number of tokens that are copies of Copy Enchantment.
Have them all copy Doubling Season.
There are f(6+2^f(3)) Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.

Resolve ff4+2^f(3) and put a token that's a copy of Copy Enchantment onto the battlefield.
There are f(6+2^f(3)) Doubling Seasons.
This makes it 2^(f(6+2^f(3))) number of tokens that are copies of Copy Enchantment.
Have them all copy Followed Footsteps that enchants Copy Enchantment that is not copying anything.
There are 4 + 2^f(3) + 2^(f(6+2^f(3))) Followed Footsteps.

There are f(6+2^f(3)) Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.
There are 4 + 2^f(3) + 2^(f(6+2^f(3))) Followed Footsteps on the battlefield.

In slightly expanded notation.
There are f(6+2^(1,048,596 + 2^1,048,596)) Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.
There are 4 + 2^(1,048,596 + 2^1,048,596) + 2^(f(6+2^(1,048,596 + 2^1,048,596))) Followed Footsteps on the battlefield.

--- Upkeep 3 ---
4 + 2^f(3) + 2^(f(6+2^f(3))) Followed Footsteps trigger (ff1 ff2 ff3 ... ) and are put on the stack.

...

--- Upkeep 4 ---
--- Upkeep 5 ---
--- Upkeep 6 ---
--- Upkeep 7 ---
--- Upkeep 8 ---

Using Conway's Chained Arrow Notation I think the following are "ballpark" equivalents.
f(2) ~= 2 -> 2 -> 3
f(3) ~= 2 -> 2 -> 4

At the end of Upkeep 2 there are about 2 -> 2 -> f(3) number of Doubling Seasons on the battlefield and f(2 -> 2 -> f(3)) number of Followed Footsteps.
At the end of Upkeep 3 there are about 2 -> 2 -> f(2 -> 2 -> f(3)) number of Doubling Seasons on the battlefield and f(2 -> 2 -> f(2 -> 2 -> f(3))) number of Followed Footsteps.

--- Main ---
Tap 6 basic lands and 1 Rhys the Redeemed and for each creature token you control, put a token that's a copy of that creature onto the battlefield.

--- Combat ---
Since Mass Hysteria is in play, attack with all untapped creatures.
crandor
Joined Jun 2004
2447 Posts
The Fork was also getting replicated the max possible number of times when it was played, so yes, Willbender was needed there. (Though as mentioned, will need to cut Fork).

Yes, the Holistic Wisdom Rings of Brightearth copies need to be redirected with Willbender--the first one to resolve gets the Regrowth back to your hand, and then all subsequent copies have lost their Regrowth target in the graveyard (for obvious reasons you can't run two copies of Regrowth).

In both of these cases, the copies are created one at a time, and you can select their targets at that time. When you Replicate Fork 2^^^...^^^X times, you don't have a bunch of Regrowths on the stack; you have a bunch of Forks targeting Regrowths. One Fork resolves, making a Regrowth and letting you target Radiate with it. That Regrowth resolves, you pull a Radiate loop, and Radiate is back in the graveyard. Now, another copy of Fork resolves, making a Regrowth and letting you target Radiate with it, etc. You only need the Willbender after the Forks are gone, to switch the top Regrowth to target Fork.

Similarly with Holistic Wisdom and Rings of Brighthearth: you will only ever have two instances of Holistic Wisdom's ability on the stack: the original on the bottom, and one copy on the top:

EDIT:

Unless I'm mistaken it can be replicated one time only--there's no particular benefit to letting Heat Shimmer hit the graveyard when you could be using your Regrowth resolutions to return Radiate instead. And...replicating Heat Shimmer is about as much of an effect as a single resolution of Radiate.

It is something like the effect of a single Radiate, but it happens before you ever play Radiate, which makes it at least a very large gain. For sure, it's better than not doing so.

To be clear, I'm not saying to do this every time through the loop; only the time you actually play the Heat Shimmer. Then, let all the copies (but not the original) resolve, doing the loop in between, granting you much more mana (and also increasing your number of Doubling Seasons and Mana Reflections by a similar factor, of course). This lets you Replicate a lot more Radiates the first time. That, in turn, lets you Replicate a lot more Regrowths and Forks the first time. That, in turn, lets you Replicate a lot more Regrowths and Forks every subsequent activation of Holistic Wisdom, as well as giving you a lot more copies of Holistic Wisdom's activated ability from Rings of Brighthearth. If this doesn't add a layer (which I'm thinking now it probably doesn't), it should at least increase the number at the right.

[smallcaps]Edit:[/smallcaps]
EDIT: (Remember, Rings of Brightearth are triggered, so you must pay them all at the same time).

This is not true. Rings of Brighthearth's triggered ability goes on the stack and waits to resolve like any triggered ability that isn't a mana ability. You pay the (or don't) as the triggered ability resolves, and the copy is created (or not) as the triggered ability resolves. You don't have to (in fact, can't) pay the for every Rings of Brighthearth triggered ability at once.
metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
Assummptions:
"In one turn" means in a particular turn of my choosing.

Oops, that's what I get for writing my opening at 3am. That's meant to be "Turn 1"; fixed.

Let f be a function describing the number of Doubling Seasons on the battlefield.
Let f(0) = 4
f(n) = f(n-1) + 2^f(n-1)

For example
f(0) = 4
f(1) = 4 + 2^4 = 4 + 16 = 20
f(2) = 20 + 2^20 = 20 + 1,048,576 = 1,048,596
f(3) = 1,048,596 + 2^1,048,596

Looks right.

Using Conway's Chained Arrow Notation I think the following are "ballpark" equivalents.
f(2) ~= 2 -> 2 -> 3
f(3) ~= 2 -> 2 -> 4

No, that's incorrect.

f(2) ~= 2->4->2 = 2^^4
f(3) ~= 2->5->2 = 2^^5
f(4) ~= 2->6->2 = 2^^6

Be very, very careful with Conway's Chained Arrow Notation. It's much less intuitive than it looks.

At the end of Upkeep 2 there are about 2 -> 2 -> f(3) number of Doubling Seasons on the battlefield and f(2 -> 2 -> f(3)) number of Followed Footsteps.

That's actually

2^^(2^^5) doubling seasons, and 2^^(2^^5+1) Followed Footsteps.

At the end of Upkeep 3 there are about 2 -> 2 -> f(2 -> 2 -> f(3)) number of Doubling Seasons on the battlefield and f(2 -> 2 -> f(2 -> 2 -> f(3))) number of Followed Footsteps.

Again, that's actually 2^^(2^^(2^^5))

At the end of 8 upkeeps you'll have something like 2^^(2^^(2^^(2^^(2^^(2^^(2^^5)))))))) ~= 2^^^10 Doubling Seasons in play.

In both of these cases, the copies are created one at a time, and you can select their targets at that time. When you Replicate Fork 2^^^...^^^X times, you don't have a bunch of Regrowths on the stack; you have a bunch of Forks targeting Regrowths. One Fork resolves, making a Regrowth and letting you target Radiate with it. That Regrowth resolves, you pull a Radiate loop, and Radiate is back in the graveyard. Now, another copy of Fork resolves, making a Regrowth and letting you target Radiate with it, etc. You only need the Willbender after the Forks are gone, to switch the top Regrowth to target Fork.

Similarly with Holistic Wisdom and Rings of Brighthearth: you will only ever have two instances of Holistic Wisdom's ability on the stack: the original on the bottom, and one copy on the top:

Ooh, nifty. Can't really think of a way to abuse that right now (I either run Willbender or Fork, not both, and without Willbender there's no real use to replicating Regrwoth). We'll see, though--I initially couldn't find a use for Mana Reflection when it was first suggested.

It is something like the effect of a single Radiate, but it happens before you ever play Radiate, which makes it at least a very large gain. For sure, it's better than not doing so.

To be clear, I'm not saying to do this every time through the loop; only the time you actually play the Heat Shimmer. Then, let all the copies (but not the original) resolve, doing the loop in between, granting you much more mana (and also increasing your number of Doubling Seasons and Mana Reflections by a similar factor, of course). This lets you Replicate a lot more Radiates the first time. That, in turn, lets you Replicate a lot more Regrowths and Forks the first time. That, in turn, lets you Replicate a lot more Regrowths and Forks every subsequent activation of Holistic Wisdom, as well as giving you a lot more copies of Holistic Wisdom's activated ability from Rings of Brighthearth. If this doesn't add a layer (which I'm thinking now it probably doesn't), it should at least increase the number at the right.

Yeah, I'll certainly try to squeeze in a mention of it at some point.

It's not going to make a big difference to the final tally, mind--let's just isolate this layer and pretend that Heat Shimmer is targetting Doubling Season.

1 Heat Shimmer does about 2^X.
Replicated Heat Shimmer does about 2^^X.
So far we have 2^^^(2^^X)
Regrowth is going to make us replicate Radiate several times, i.e.
2^^^(2^^^(2^^^(...2^^^(2^^X)...)))

It's...a big enough bonus to squeeze in a note about it somewhere (I'm deciding between the Heat Shimmer section and the Djinn Illuminatus section). It's not a whole extra layer, though, and won't change my estimate for the final number.

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

studoku
Joined Apr 2009
1202 Posts
I love this idea.

It actually outdamages most infinite comboes, since the numbers produced by this are too big for people to use as the number of times to run an infinite combo.
57092228 wrote:
It is not logic: it's Magic.

crandor
Joined Jun 2004
2447 Posts
Yeah, I'll certainly try to squeeze in a mention of it at some point.

It's not going to make a big difference to the final tally, mind--let's just isolate this layer and pretend that Heat Shimmer is targetting Doubling Season.

1 Heat Shimmer does about 2^X.
Replicated Heat Shimmer does about 2^^X.
So far we have 2^^^(2^^X)
Regrowth is going to make us replicate Radiate several times, i.e.
2^^^(2^^^(2^^^(...2^^^(2^^X)...)))

It's...a big enough bonus to squeeze in a note about it somewhere (I'm deciding between the Heat Shimmer section and the Djinn Illuminatus section). It's not a whole extra layer, though, and won't change my estimate for the final number.

Fair enough. I haven't done much with really big numbers (and nothing in quite a while), so I'm having to remember that simple large factors can be negligible, let alone large sequences of exponentiation.
metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
Ooh, nifty. Can't really think of a way to abuse that right now (I either run Willbender or Fork, not both, and without Willbender there's no real use to replicating Regrwoth). We'll see, though--I initially couldn't find a use for Mana Reflection when it was first suggested.

Well...thought of one way to semi-abuse it. It lets us remove Willbender from the deck completely, replacing it with a random Sorcery to act as fodder for Holistic Wisdom. It's not a whole extra layer of recursion or anything, but it's one more iteration at the highest layer of recursion, which...is a big enough bonus to up my final estimate.

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

crandor
Joined Jun 2004
2447 Posts
Well...thought of one way to semi-abuse it. It lets us remove Willbender from the deck completely, replacing it with a random Sorcery to act as fodder for Holistic Wisdom. It's not a whole extra layer of recursion or anything, but it's one more iteration at the highest layer of recursion, which...is a big enough bonus to up my final estimate.

That hurts the Radiate step, though. Each Radiate only puts one extra Heat Shimmer on the Hammerheim without Willbender. I'm not entirely sure how bad that is.
crandor
Joined Jun 2004
2447 Posts
By the way, you need Fervor or an equivalent. Nevermind, I just can't read Minion Reflector.
metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
That hurts the Radiate step, though. Each Radiate only puts one extra Heat Shimmer on the Hammerheim without Willbender. I'm not entirely sure how bad that is.

It just means that Radiate effectively costs for the effect. The first Radiate puts 2^X Hammerheims into play (thanks to doubling season). The next Radiate sends 2^X copies of Heat Shimmer at each of the Hammerheim copies. So we do get X copies of Heat Shimmer pointed at Hammerheim, it just takes two resolutions.

A spell costing instead of is...not really a big deal at this point. (2^^20)/4 is still roughly 2^^20 due to how numbers of this size work.

By the way, you need Fervor or an equivalent. Nevermind, I just can't read Minion Reflector.

Yep, that's why we picked Minion Reflector over Dual Nature. Well...that, and the whole "bounce and replay Dual Nature" had an obnoxious "destroy all tokens" effect.

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

crandor
Joined Jun 2004
2447 Posts
It just means that Radiate effectively costs for the effect. The first Radiate puts 2^X Hammerheims into play (thanks to doubling season). The next Radiate sends 2^X copies of Heat Shimmer at each of the Hammerheim copies. So we do get X copies of Heat Shimmer pointed at Hammerheim, it just takes two resolutions.

A spell costing instead of is...not really a big deal at this point. (2^^20)/4 is still roughly 2^^20 due to how numbers of this size work.

Sounds good.

I'm trying to add another layer to the recursion. I'm looking at All Suns' Dawn, Glimmering Wish, and Boggart Birth Rite. For it to work, there would have to be something to replace Fossil Find that can return Radiate but not anything higher in the chain. Déjà Vu would work if there are instants that can return it from the graveyard.

Holistic Wisdom->Déjà Vu->Breath of Life->Promised Kannushi->Soulshift chain length 5->Hana Kami->Psychic Puppetry? Spawning Pit or Nantuko Husk can enable Soulshift. The idea in general would require removing Aether Spellbomb, and Psychic Puppetry would require removing Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. There might be a way to make this work without Psychic Puppetry or possibly even without Hana Kami, but I haven't found one yet. Is there a way to make the mana work without Aether Spellbomb? Willbender is needed if Breath of Life and Déjà Vu are going to add layers, which is tough without Aether Spellbomb.

[smallcaps]Edit:[/smallcaps] Twilight's Call could replace Breath of Life and wouldn't need Willbender (but you would still want Willbender for Déjà Vu if at all possible).
metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
I'm trying to add another layer to the recursion. I'm looking at All Suns' Dawn,

Won't work. We had looked at some cards that RFG themselves like Woodland Guidance, but the problem is that you can counter the card by removing the target from the graveyard, and then when the card is countered, it doesn't Exile itself. (Holistic Wisdom ended up the safe option because you removed the cards as a cost, so it didn't matter if the ability got countered--the card was already gone).

Glimmering Wish,

Glittering Wish you mean? As I understand it, Wishes can only take cards from the sideboard zone (and the sideboard is 0 cards by the rules of the game). Exiled cards don't work, as it's not an "outside the game" zone. The one card I know of that can de-Exile a card is Pull from Eternity, but it has all kinds of problems (for starters it doesn't even exile itself). I was using it in combination with Déjà Vu for a while, but that cuts Radiate out of the combo.

and Boggart Birth Rite.

Oooh. Although...hmm, I can't figure out what to combo it with. Even Conspiracy only affects creature cards in your graveyard.

For it to work, there would have to be something to replace Fossil Find that can return Radiate but not anything higher in the chain. Déjà Vu would work if there are instants that can return it from the graveyard.

I've really looked for that. I mean, if "return target instant card from your graveyard" existed, then that would make an extra layer with Fossil Find/Regrowth all by itself, because neither of those cards are instants.

Holistic Wisdom->Déjà Vu->Breath of Life->Promised Kannushi->Soulshift chain length 5->Hana Kami->Psychic Puppetry? Spawning Pit or Nantuko Husk can enable Soulshift.

Wait, doesn't that goes infinite with...
The idea in general would require removing Aether Spellbomb, and Psychic Puppetry would require removing Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.

Ahh...okay.

There might be a way to make this work without Psychic Puppetry or possibly even without Hana Kami, but I haven't found one yet. Is there a way to make the mana work without Aether Spellbomb?

Umm...well originally it was more like Channel, Mycosynth Lattice, and either Soul Warden or Tolarian Academy (Soul Warden being way more dangerous of the two). This was trashed in favour of using every mana type as a resource.

Willbender is needed if Breath of Life and Déjà Vu are going to add layers, which is tough without Aether Spellbomb.

Master of the Veil + Rings of Brighthearth lets you turn Willbender face down, and copy the ability to turn Master of the Veil face down; was using this in an earlier version.

My biggest concern with your suggestion right now is actually Doubling Season. You have a fancy soulshift chain going, but you've removed every way to copy DS below the spell layer (bouncing Doubling Season and using Kiki-Jiki's ability being the two obvious methods to copy it).

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

mqj
Joined Apr 2008
4086 Posts
Won't work. We had looked at some cards that RFG themselves like Woodland Guidance, but the problem is that you can counter the card by removing the target from the graveyard, and then when the card is countered, it doesn't Exile itself. (Holistic Wisdom ended up the safe option because you removed the cards as a cost, so it didn't matter if the ability got countered--the card was already gone).

Glittering Wish you mean? As I understand it, Wishes can only take cards from the sideboard zone (and the sideboard is 0 cards by the rules of the game). Exiled cards don't work, as it's not an "outside the game" zone. The one card I know of that can de-Exile a card is Pull from Eternity, but it has all kinds of problems (for starters it doesn't even exile itself). I was using it in combination with Déjà Vu for a while, but that cuts Radiate out of the combo.

Oooh. Although...hmm, I can't figure out what to combo it with. Even Conspiracy only affects creature cards in your graveyard.

I've really looked for that. I mean, if "return target instant card from your graveyard" existed, then that would make an extra layer with Fossil Find/Regrowth all by itself, because neither of those cards are instants.

In your website the following is stated.
Why it doesn't mess with layers above it
(Need to think more what I'm doing with these sections)

I think a good clarification would be what mana you have left in your mana pool to see if arbitrarly large loops can be started or not.

For returning instants, have you looked at
Izzet Chronarch (instant or sorcery)
Nucklavee (blue instant and red sorcery)
Relearn (instant or sorcery)
Scrivener (instant)

For thing similar to Fossil Find have you considered
Forgotten Lore
Shrouded Lore
Bound // Determined (Bound)

For cards not being able to exile themselves when they are countered due to a lack of all legal targets, have you considered
Dralnu, Lich Lord
Recoup
Forbidden Crypt
Planar Void
Yawgmoth's Will
Bösium Strip (Bosium Strip)
Nostalgic Dreams
Soldevi Digger

For other layers have you considered Beacon of Creation with Mind's Desire?
metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
For returning instants, have you looked at
Izzet Chronarch (instant or sorcery)
Nucklavee (blue instant and red sorcery)
Relearn (instant or sorcery)
Scrivener (instant)

I can't run permanents that return spells if I'm running Kiki-Jiki or if I'm running bounce off of a permanent.

For thing similar to Fossil Find have you considered
Forgotten Lore
Shrouded Lore
Bound // Determined (Bound)

Any of them work (although Bound removes itself from the game so it would work a little differently).

For cards not being able to exile themselves when they are countered due to a lack of all legal targets, have you considered
Dralnu, Lich Lord
Recoup
Forbidden Crypt
Planar Void
Yawgmoth's Will
Bösium Strip (Bosium Strip)
Nostalgic Dreams
Soldevi Digger

The trick with somehting like Dralnu or Yawgwin is that I only get to play Fossil Find twice off those cards (once from my hand, once from my graveyard) as opposed to multiple times off of Holistic Wisdom.

Forbidden Crypt I'd need to remove Aether Spellbomb from the deck or it goes infinite. Even in Crandor's deck with Nantuko Husk, play the crypt, wait for the triggered "copy" ability to go on the stack from Minion Reflector (I assume he's still running that), sac the crypt before any copies come into play, and...I'm not actually sure if the crypt will end up in the graveyard; if it does, it goes infinite.

Planar Void--nothing forces the deck pilot to put Planar Void into play.

Soldevi Digger--Decent in combination with cards like Mind's desire.

For other layers have you considered Beacon of Creation with Mind's Desire?

Mind's Desire is only worthwhile if you have a way to shuffle cards back into your library. If you do, then it absolutely necessitates dropping Fossil Find and all other Regrowth variants. And...I wouldn't use MD for Beacon of Creation I'd run it with Radiate.

Here's the trouble, though:

Replicated Mind's Desire (the total number of copies will be X storm copies plus 2^^^X replicate copies...X+2^^^X ~= 2^^^X). Can replay Radiate 2^^^X times. Fossil Find can also replay Radiate 2^^^X times, but doesn't require an additional spell to shuffle Radiate into your library.

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

crandor
Joined Jun 2004
2447 Posts
Glittering Wish you mean? As I understand it, Wishes can only take cards from the sideboard zone (and the sideboard is 0 cards by the rules of the game). Exiled cards don't work, as it's not an "outside the game" zone. The one card I know of that can de-Exile a card is Pull from Eternity, but it has all kinds of problems (for starters it doesn't even exile itself). I was using it in combination with Deja Vu for a while, but that cuts Radiate out of the combo.

I actually meant Reborn Hope; I missed by quite a bit on that one (I had written up some stuff, and it deleted itself, so I forgot to double-check everything). I was hoping for Reborn Hope and then a multicolored thing that can grab Radiate, but I haven't found anything that works yet.

Anyway, that's correct; wishes can no longer grab things from the exile zone. If they still could, Burning Wish would be an obvious include.

Oooh. Although...hmm, I can't figure out what to combo it with. Even Conspiracy only affects creature cards in your graveyard.

I was hoping for a Goblin instant or sorcery that could fetch Radiate, but I haven't found any yet.

Umm...well originally it was more like Channel, Mycosynth Lattice, and either Soul Warden or Tolarian Academy (Soul Warden being way more dangerous of the two). This was trashed in favour of using every mana as a resource.

Master of the Veil + Rings of Brightearth lets you turn Willbender face down, and copy the ability to turn Master of the Veil face down; was using this in an earlier version.

My biggest concern right now is actually Doubling Season. You have a fancy soulshift chain going, but you've removed every way to copy DS below the spell layer (bouncing Doubling Season and using Kiki-Jiki's ability being the obvious methods).

How 'bout Blind With Anger instead of Psychic Puppetry? That can untap Dowsing Shaman and let you re-play Doubling Season or something. It still needs mana; Blind with Anger could just untap some lands, of course. Hoodwink could let you re-play any artifacts or enchantments...?

This has been taking up more time than I'd like to spend on it, so I think I'm going to bow out, at least for a while. If you'd like to keep working on the Soulshift chain, one idea I had was to use Tangleroot as the only source of and not re-play anything with Creature as a printed type below Hana Kami...or maybe that doesn't matter if you can't bounce Hana Kami at will. Hoodwink or Dowsing Shaman can still let you re-play Doubling Season. I was still planning on including Minion Reflector, yes; if your write-up is to be believed, it adds an extra layer every time you have a layer involving a permanent coming into play, which is upwards of 7 extra layers in the Soulshift chain. I don't know if there are any colored artifacts like Fieldmist Borderpost that can't generate all their own colors (I'm not too familiar with the newer sets), but that could let you keep your mana layers and still have the Soulshift layers above. I'm not sure of a great way to do any of that, but those are my ideas if you choose to try to incorporate the Soulshift chain.
metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
I actually meant Reborn Hope; I missed by quite a bit on that one (I had written up some stuff, and it deleted itself, so I forgot to double-check everything). I was hoping for Reborn Hope and then a multicolored thing that can grab Radiate, but I haven't found anything that works yet.

Ahh...okay. Yeah, the problem with running two regrow effects is that they can't both be able to return the other, and the one that can't return the second regrowth effect needs to be able to hit Radiate. Reborn hope can't hit Radiate, so it can't be the lower-layer regrowth effect. And we don't actually need restrictions on the upper-layer regrowth effect.

Well...wait, we do need restrictions if there's THREE layers of regrow effects. So uhh...Spitting Image instead of Heat Shimmer (and something that gives haste), Reborn Hope, Déjà Vu, and Reap, along with supporting cards Willbender and Donate.

Reborn Hope can only return Spitting Image.
Déjà Vu can only return Reborn Hope or Spitting Image.
Reap can return anything, but nothing can return Reap.

-1 layer for loss of Radiate
+2 layer for gain of two regrowth layers.

I...well there we go, I think that works.

And...hang on a sec, I think I'm going to double-post so that I can address the Soulshift strategy in a seperate post (I have plenty to write about that too, and if I cram it all into one post it'll be enormous).

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
How 'bout Blind With Anger instead of Psychic Puppetry? That can untap Dowsing Shaman and let you re-play Doubling Season or something. It still needs mana; Blind with Anger could just untap some lands, of course. Hoodwink could let you re-play any artifacts or enchantments...?

Blind with Anger could work, yes. It might allow the inclusion of Kiki-Jiki, and if there are any problem lands or mana sources, we can make those legendary.

This has been taking up more time than I'd like to spend on it, so I think I'm going to bow out, at least for a while. If you'd like to keep working on the Soulshift chain, one idea I had was to use Tangleroot as the only source of and not re-play anything with Creature as a printed type below Hana Kami...or maybe that doesn't matter if you can't bounce Hana Kami at will.

The big problem with that is that it collapses 7 layers of Soulshift into 1 layer, since if you're not replaying any of the others, there's no point in targeting anything but Hana Kami in your graveyard, so you basically have 7 soulshift creatures that all target Hana Kami.

Hoodwink or Dowsing Shaman can still let you re-play Doubling Season.

Hoodwink: no, it's neither Spirit nor Arcane so can't go as the bottom layer. Blind with Anger on Dowsing Shaman can work, though.

I was still planning on including Minion Reflector, yes; if your write-up is to be believed, it adds an extra layer every time you have a layer involving a permanent coming into play, which is upwards of 7 extra layers in the Soulshift chain.

Right. Well...let's calculate that now and see how it goes.

Play Doubling Season, and copy it for each Mi...

Wait, we have a problem: we NEED to be able to bounce and replay Minion Reflector too, otherwise we don't get the X effect out of it.

-Blind with Anger
-Dowsing Shaman
+Hanna, Ship's Navigator
+Psychic Puppetry (she had to be legendary...)
-Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

Right, take 2:

Tap Hanna, Ship's Navigator to play Doubling Season, and copy it for each Minion Reflector in play (every second time you will have to bounce Minion Reflector instead). 2^^X.

Layer 3:
Replicate Psychic Puppetry to untap Hanna Ship's Navigator X times. 2^^^X.

Layer 4:
Sac Hana Kami to return Psychic Puppetry and copy it X times with Rings of Brightearth. As you pointed out, no need for any redirection.

Layer 5/6:
Play Hana Kami and pay for X copies from Minion Reflector, then let the triggers resolve one at a time (in between which we'll repeat layers 1-5 to make lots more Doubling Seasons).

Layer 7/8:
Play Soulshift-1, put X copy triggers on the stack with Minion Reflector.

Layer 9/10:
Play Soulshift-2, put X copy triggers on the stack with Minion Reflector.

Layer 11/12:
Play Soulshift-3, put X copy triggers on the stack with Minion Reflector.

Layer 13/14:
Play Soulshift-4, put X copy triggers on the stack with Minion Reflector.

Layer 15/16:
Play Soulshift-5, put X copy triggers on the stack with Minion Reflector.

Layer 17/18:
Play Soulshift-6, put X copy triggers on the stack with Minion Reflector.

Layer 19/20:
Play Soulshift-7, put X copy triggers on the stack with Minion Reflector.

Layer 21/22:
Play Soulshift-8, put X copy triggers on the stack with Minion Reflector.

Layer 23 being a Heat Shimmer effect (compared to layer 18 for Heat Shimmer before). Yes, that's definitely worth-it.

I don't know if there are any colored artifacts like Fieldmist Borderpost that can't generate all their own colors (I'm not too familiar with the newer sets), but that could let you keep your mana layers and still have the Soulshift layers above. I'm not sure of a great way to do any of that, but those are my ideas if you choose to try to incorporate the Soulshift chain.

Right now I'm not seeing a definite way to incorporate mana period. Well...maybe Gaea's Cradle Orochi Leafcaller and Freed From the Real to get X untaps of Hanna, Ship's Navigator instead of one untap, which in and of itself would only produce 2^^X mana because we wouldn't be able to pay for all the Mana Reflector costs so it's not actually advantageous...BUT WAIT we also throw in a ridiculous colourless source like, say, Soul Warden, then it's 2^^^X.

And...wait, we can replace Gaea's Cradle with Forest and Mana Reflection, and then use Blind with Anger again and bring back Kiki-Ji...wait no, definitely not (can't have Kiki-Jiki with Freed From the Real); okay, scratch that.

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts

1. Hanna, Ship's Navigator can be Rings of Brighthearthed
2. Freed from the Real can be Rings of Brighthearthed, although this is not hugely relevant if Hanna, Ship's Navigator still has coloured mana in her tapping and we're doing Orochi Leafcaller + Gaea's Cradle for our coloured mana (i.e. limited coloured mana).
3. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker can be run if we don't run Freed from the Real, and adds...the same number of layers in-theory (2), but more layers in-practice due to the practical issues with Hannah's tap cost. Of course, in order to do this we need Norritt and Blind with Anger to untap Norritt. (Actually...that's even better because we can Rings of Brighthearth Norritt).

This pushes us really strongly into "we want to just forget about mana" territory (i.e. Channel + Mycosynth Lattice + Soul Warden). *shrug* seems to be stronger though.

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
Okay, entire article updated with soulshift.

http://www.rpgdl.com/metroidcomposite/phpconversion.php

Most of this is like what I already posted here, although with some exceptions. Notably Karakas, and the entire engine surrounding it.

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

himetic
Joined Jun 2009
216 Posts
problem. the combo can go infinite, just use the untappy-thing to untap serra's sanctum and keep making more untappy-spells to untap it more, etc.

i mean, yeah, you don't CHOOSE to target sanctum for infinite mana, but you could argue that a simple infinite-mana combo doesn't have to choose to go infinite. you're just making a bad decision in order to avoid being infinite. seems like a technicality to me.
metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
problem. the combo can go infinite, just use the untappy-thing to untap serra's sanctum and keep making more untappy-spells to untap it more, etc.

i mean, yeah, you don't CHOOSE to target sanctum for infinite mana, but you could argue that a simple infinite-mana combo doesn't have to choose to go infinite. you're just making a bad decision in order to avoid being infinite. seems like a technicality to me.

Nope--Djinn Illuminatus only gives the spell replicate, and replicate is a triggered effect based on extra costs you pay as you cast the spell, and you only actually cast the spell once. It's NOT , copy target spell that costs (which would go infinite, you're right). You can't create more copies of the untapping spell WITHOUT casting another untapping spell, which requires having another untapping spell in your hand (since the first one will go to the graveyard).

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

mqj
Joined Apr 2008
4086 Posts
Okay, entire article updated with soulshift.

http://www.rpgdl.com/metroidcomposite/phpconversion.php

Most of this is like what I already posted here, although with some exceptions. Notably Karakas, and the entire engine surrounding it.

Additionally: note that Minion Reflector will never copy Black Lotus, because if March of the Machines is in play, Black Lotus dies as a state based action before triggered abilities go on the stack, and if MotM isn't in play, then Black Lotus isn't a creature so can't be copied.

This is not entirely correct. If March of the Machines is on the battlefield and you cast Black Lotus, then Black Lotus does come onto the battlefield as a 0/0 creature which triggers Minion Reflector but is not yet put on the stack. Then just before any player would gain priority state based actions are checked, sees a 0/0 creature, and puts it into its owner's graveyard. Then Minion Reflector's ability goes on the stack. Of course putting a 0/0 Black Lotus token creature doesn't get you anywhere in the end since before you can use its mana ability, it is put into its owner's graveyard.
metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
This is not entirely correct. If March of the Machines is on the battlefield and you cast Black Lotus, then Black Lotus does come onto the battlefield as a 0/0 creature which triggers Minion Reflector but is not yet put on the stack. Then just before any player would gain priority state based actions are checked, sees a 0/0 creature, and puts it into its owner's graveyard. Then Minion Reflector's ability goes on the stack. Of course putting a 0/0 Black Lotus token creature doesn't get you anywhere in the end since before you can use its mana ability, it is put into its owner's graveyard.

Ooh, thanks for the correction. Noted, updated, and credited.

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

himetic
Joined Jun 2009
216 Posts
Nope--Djinn Illuminatus only gives the spell replicate, and replicate is a triggered effect based on extra costs you pay as you cast the spell, and you only actually cast the spell once. It's NOT , copy target spell that costs (which would go infinite, you're right). You can't create more copies of the untapping spell WITHOUT casting another untapping spell, which requires having another untapping spell in your hand (since the first one will go to the graveyard).

hang on then. you're right on replicate, (been a while since ravnica, i forgot how it works, i was thinking of the guildmage i think) but if you have to pay all the costs at the same time, do they not resolve at the same time? you can still tap kiki in between each resolution?
crandor
Joined Jun 2004
2447 Posts
hang on then. you're right on replicate, (been a while since ravnica, i forgot how it works, i was thinking of the guildmage i think) but if you have to pay all the costs at the same time, do they not resolve at the same time? you can still tap kiki in between each resolution?

Correct, the stack always resolves one object at a time, and players get priority in between resolutions.
metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
Emailed WotC before I went on vacation saying "hey, you interested in running an article like this?" No response. Ah well.

That said, back to the combo...here's my current thought:

-Djinn Illuminatus
-Goblin Flectomancer
+Mirari
+Fork

Bounce and replay Mirari so that you have lots of them in play, and have lots of copy triggers, then as Crandor described with Rings of Brighthearth let each Mirari trigger resolve only when the target you want is in the graveyard, therefore removing the need of redirection spells.

Removing redirection spells would also (I think) let us bring back Fork, since now Fork resolves, creates a copy of Reap and chooses targets. Once the spell copying is done (that spell copy now on the stack) the physical Fork card goes to the graveyard, but we have no way to change the targets of the spell copy on the stack to return Fork.

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

darkeshrine
Joined Jul 2009
2094 Posts
Hiya, so a bunch of us on another forum were trying to work out the most damage we could do in one turn using a deck that contains no infinite combos. Bouncing ideas back and forth, the best deck we came up with was actually pretty wild; figure I may as well show this to the combo forum and get input:

http://www.rpgdl.com/metroidcomposite/phpconversion.php

:evillaugh That was great, i gave myself a splitting headache laughing at it. Only one bad side effect... all the doubling seasons are gone at the end of the turn.
Its going to eat me!
Quotes and such
57044478 wrote:
57311168 wrote:
What happens if there's a tie for first?
Monkey knife fight
metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts

Okay, updated draft with a link to this new copy of the original topic (as opposed to the broken link to the old forums).

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
So...every once in a while a new card will be printed that will make me think "did this combo just get blown wide open?"  I can't be the only person who raised an eyebrow at this card:

So...the question on my mind was whether this would massively increase the combo, or cause it to go infinite.  Turns out?  Neither.  The card has no place in this deck.

"Now wait", you say, "Surely when a token comes into play, a bazillion copies of this produces a bazillion triggers, which you can resolve one by one, and some things you have coming into play do tap so you'd get a lot of untaps out of that".  Yes, and yes again.

Here's the problem: when a token comes into play, instead 2^X tokens come into play (where X is copies of doubling season), and immediately for each token Y untap triggers go onto the stack (where Y is copies of amulet of vigor).  This gets you a total of (Y+1)*2^X taps.  A bonus, right?  Wrong.  If instead of producing Y copies of Amulet of Vigor so that there were lots around, you had instead copied Doubling Season one more time, you'd do better--instead of (2^X)*(2^X) you get 2^(2^X).

So...yeah, a card that looked so promising; doesn't seem to actually advance things at all.  (Unless...I remember looking at some cards and thinking "I wish that didn't come into play tapped because then it might fit into the combo"--can't remember what those cards are now, though.

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

crandor
Joined Jun 2004
2447 Posts
So...every once in a while a new card will be printed that will make me think "did this combo just get blown wide open?"  I can't be the only person who raised an eyebrow at this card:

[Picture of Amulet of Vigor omitted.]

So...the question on my mind was whether this would massively increase the combo, or cause it to go infinite.  Turns out?  Neither.  The card has no place in this deck.

"Now wait", you say, "Surely when a token comes into play, a bazillion copies of this produces a bazillion triggers, which you can resolve one by one, and some things you have coming into play do tap so you'd get a lot of untaps out of that".  Yes, and yes again.

Here's the problem: when a token comes into play, instead 2^X tokens come into play (where X is copies of doubling season), and immediately for each token Y untap triggers go onto the stack (where Y is copies of amulet of vigor).  This gets you a total of (Y+1)*2^X taps.  A bonus, right?  Wrong.  If instead of producing Y copies of Amulet of Vigor so that there were lots around, you had instead copied Doubling Season one more time, you'd do better--instead of (2^X)*(2^X) you get 2^(2^X).

So...yeah, a card that looked so promising; doesn't seem to actually advance things at all.  (Unless...I remember looking at some cards and thinking "I wish that didn't come into play tapped because then it might fit into the combo"--can't remember what those cards are now, though.

I agree with your assessment; it will have to be slipped in as another layer if it's to do anything useful, and at the moment, I can't think of a way to do that without going infinite.
metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
In the mean time, getting me thinking about this again resulted in some productive Gatherer searches (where I was searching for something completely different).

Slithery Stalker combined with some sort of donate effect, perhaps that new creature.  Rather nice  clean gain here, let's you flicker Body of Jukai by donating it, exiling it, and bringing it back under its "owners control" (i.e. you), but Slithery Stalker can't flicker itself (no infinite there) and can't flicker Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (no infninite there).

The other interesting potential gain is that the deck doesn't use life as a resource at all, right now, so Chainer, Dementia Master or Phyrexian Reclamation won't cause an infinite.  Of course, they can both return Kiki-Jiki, so they're pretty much forced into the "recur kiki-jiki" part of the combo.  The other restriction is that we now need a permanent that gains life without going infinite (i.e. can't be a non-legendary creature because of Kiki-Jiki, can't be a creature because of Phyrexian Reclamation, and can't be an Artifact or Enchantment because of Hanna, Ship's Navigator).

This leaves two options: Planeswalkers.  I don't know how to combo well with planeswalkers (like I'd want to use a lifegain ability multiple times, and I can't think of a good way to bounce without going infinite somewhere else.  They're not currently creatures, but even if they were, copying them is a mess as, last I checked Mirror Gallery doesn't cover Planeswalkers.

The second option is land, and...Miren the Moaning Well works...reasonably well, it just doesn't end up with much bang (it replaces Karakas, and does get one more layer, since tapping the well produces X triggers so X life, then 2 life does Phyrexian Reclamation, so Rings of Brightearth triggers a second time for Y Kiki-Jiki flickers).  Although...wait, Boon Reflection, that adds another layer (as lifegain triggers already on the stack would grow, instead of being fixed to the power of whatever creature was sacrificed).  Dunno, though--I feel like if there's some way to make life a resource without dropping Karakas, that would be so much better.  Still processing this one.

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

Mage24365
Joined Jun 2009
7601 Posts
Uh, this CAN go infinite. Use Kiki-Jiki to target another one.

Sig
Disclaimers
My initial responses to rules questions are usually just answers. If you want an explanation as to why, say so. Just because it says I'm there, I'm not necessarily there. I leave my browser open so I don't have to reload ~30 tabs. Anyone who wants to text duel me through either PM or chat can just PM me with a format (and a time if playing through chat). I don't play standard.
# Card Blind Hall of Fame
3CB
3CB #1 (1/30/11): Won by silasw, with Mishra's Factory, Orzhov Basilica, Vindicate. 3CB #2 (2/13/11): Won by Vektor480, with Mishra's Workshop, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs 3CB #3(2/20/11): Joint win between defuse, with Saprazzan Skerry, Scalding Tongs, Energy Field; and Mown, with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Inkmoth Nexus, Sheltered Valley 3CB #4(3/13/11): Won by Mown, with Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boros Garrison 3CB #5(3/20/11): Won by silasw, with Black Lotus, Channel, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
5CB
5CB 1 (3/6/11): Won by Maraxus-of-Keld, with Tropical Island, Thallid, Nether Spirit, Daze, Foil
quotes
56819178 wrote:
So, how would I use a card that has a large in the top half and "sui?l? -- pu?? ?is?q" across the middle?
57031358 wrote:
99113151 wrote:
Winning is not important if: 1. You win by a blowout. 2. You pay billions of dollars in cards to win. If you like wasting money just to win one game, while you could have saved it to lose a few and end up winning more in the future, then it is fine by me.
what? do you ceremonially light your deck on fire after a win?
57169958 wrote:
Or did no one notice Transmogrifying Licid before. (And by not notice, I mean covered their ears and shouted LA LA LA LA )
57193048 wrote:
57169958 wrote:
Hmmm... I think the most awkward situation at the moment is simply the Myr Welder / Equipment / Licid / Aura craziness, but I'm pretty sure he's aware of it.
If the most awkward thing going on right now involves Licids, I declare victory.
56287226 wrote:
We regret to inform you of Trevor Kidd's untimely demise in an unfortunate accident involving a mysteriously blown breaker box and a photophobic creature of unknown origin at his home near Renton, Washington. We at the Wizards Community apologize for any inconvenience or delay, and assure you we'll be preparing a replacement to assume his duties as soon as we finish warming up the cloning vats.
[02:47:46] It doesn't merely "come out of suspend" - you take the last time counter off, and then suspend triggers and say "now cast that! CAST IT NOOOOOW!" [02:47:49] Because suspend has no indoors voice
[10:11:33] !opalescence [10:11:33] Opalescence {2WW} |Enchantment| Each other non-Aura enchantment is a creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost. It's still an enchantment. · Reserved,UD-R,Vin,Leg,Cla,USBC [10:11:51] *sigh* [10:12:10] Otecko: Do you have a question about Opalescence? [10:12:17] sure [10:12:23] \$10 on humility interaction [10:12:25] :P [10:12:29] :D [10:12:47] humility + opalescence put into play by replenish
Ego
58325628 wrote:
Mage is awesome, BTW.
56967858 wrote:
Dear Mage24365, You are totally awesome. Thank you so much. I hope you are able to dine in Paradise without kicking the bucket to actually get there, and that every dollar you ever make magically becomes two more.
58158398 wrote:
56761258 wrote:
I don't think there are any cards like that. There are things that prevent you from activating activated abilities, things that increase their cost, and things that counter them, but I don't think anything triggers from them specifically. There are things that trigger from targeting, so that might be relevant, but I can't think of anything that triggers from targeting a player. I'm almost positive there's nothing that triggers from damage being prevented.
Rings of Brighthearth; Dormant Gomazoa; Samite Ministration.
56761258 wrote:
Well played.

metroidcomposite
Joined Sep 2005
1923 Posts
Uh, this CAN go infinite. Use Kiki-Jiki to target another one.

Err...target another "one"?  Another what, exactly?

If you mean "use Kiki-Jiki to target another Kiki-Jiki" then no, from Kiki-Jiki's text:

Put a token that's a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control onto the battlefield. That token has haste. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step.

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

Mage24365
Joined Jun 2009
7601 Posts
Obviously. Can't believe I missed that...

Sig
Disclaimers
My initial responses to rules questions are usually just answers. If you want an explanation as to why, say so. Just because it says I'm there, I'm not necessarily there. I leave my browser open so I don't have to reload ~30 tabs. Anyone who wants to text duel me through either PM or chat can just PM me with a format (and a time if playing through chat). I don't play standard.
# Card Blind Hall of Fame
3CB
3CB #1 (1/30/11): Won by silasw, with Mishra's Factory, Orzhov Basilica, Vindicate. 3CB #2 (2/13/11): Won by Vektor480, with Mishra's Workshop, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs 3CB #3(2/20/11): Joint win between defuse, with Saprazzan Skerry, Scalding Tongs, Energy Field; and Mown, with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Inkmoth Nexus, Sheltered Valley 3CB #4(3/13/11): Won by Mown, with Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boros Garrison 3CB #5(3/20/11): Won by silasw, with Black Lotus, Channel, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
5CB
5CB 1 (3/6/11): Won by Maraxus-of-Keld, with Tropical Island, Thallid, Nether Spirit, Daze, Foil
quotes
56819178 wrote:
So, how would I use a card that has a large in the top half and "sui?l? -- pu?? ?is?q" across the middle?
57031358 wrote:
99113151 wrote:
Winning is not important if: 1. You win by a blowout. 2. You pay billions of dollars in cards to win. If you like wasting money just to win one game, while you could have saved it to lose a few and end up winning more in the future, then it is fine by me.
what? do you ceremonially light your deck on fire after a win?
57169958 wrote:
Or did no one notice Transmogrifying Licid before. (And by not notice, I mean covered their ears and shouted LA LA LA LA )
57193048 wrote:
57169958 wrote:
Hmmm... I think the most awkward situation at the moment is simply the Myr Welder / Equipment / Licid / Aura craziness, but I'm pretty sure he's aware of it.
If the most awkward thing going on right now involves Licids, I declare victory.
56287226 wrote:
We regret to inform you of Trevor Kidd's untimely demise in an unfortunate accident involving a mysteriously blown breaker box and a photophobic creature of unknown origin at his home near Renton, Washington. We at the Wizards Community apologize for any inconvenience or delay, and assure you we'll be preparing a replacement to assume his duties as soon as we finish warming up the cloning vats.
[02:47:46] It doesn't merely "come out of suspend" - you take the last time counter off, and then suspend triggers and say "now cast that! CAST IT NOOOOOW!" [02:47:49] Because suspend has no indoors voice
[10:11:33] !opalescence [10:11:33] Opalescence {2WW} |Enchantment| Each other non-Aura enchantment is a creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost. It's still an enchantment. · Reserved,UD-R,Vin,Leg,Cla,USBC [10:11:51] *sigh* [10:12:10] Otecko: Do you have a question about Opalescence? [10:12:17] sure [10:12:23] \$10 on humility interaction [10:12:25] :P [10:12:29] :D [10:12:47] humility + opalescence put into play by replenish
Ego
58325628 wrote:
Mage is awesome, BTW.
56967858 wrote:
Dear Mage24365, You are totally awesome. Thank you so much. I hope you are able to dine in Paradise without kicking the bucket to actually get there, and that every dollar you ever make magically becomes two more.
58158398 wrote:
56761258 wrote:
I don't think there are any cards like that. There are things that prevent you from activating activated abilities, things that increase their cost, and things that counter them, but I don't think anything triggers from them specifically. There are things that trigger from targeting, so that might be relevant, but I can't think of anything that triggers from targeting a player. I'm almost positive there's nothing that triggers from damage being prevented.
Rings of Brighthearth; Dormant Gomazoa; Samite Ministration.
56761258 wrote:
Well played.

winwithkithkin
Joined Oct 2007
3 Posts
A idea that came to me at 2am in the morning so it may not be the greatest:

This also doesn't keep it Vintage legal, but makes it so much more fun.

So with Eureka, you put into play....ready...Topsy Turvy. The reason for this is so we can abuse Awakening, Followed Footsteps, and Paradox Haze, to make the number of Doubling Seasons grow, this might make more layers, and it might make infinite, or it might not help at all, idk, and before you go from your upkeep to your untap, sacrifice Topsy Turvy and you get to go back in the normal direction, so you can attack, or just use a card like comet storm to win then.

Have fun guys. This is one of my favorite threads of all time
syrazemyla
Joined Oct 2007
102 Posts
Glittering Wish you mean? As I understand it, Wishes can only take cards from the sideboard zone (and the sideboard is 0 cards by the rules of the game). Exiled cards don't work, as it's not an "outside the game" zone. The one card I know of that can de-Exile a card is Pull from Eternity, but it has all kinds of problems (for starters it doesn't even exile itself).

If this is your problem, then I wonder if Cast Through Time from Rise of the Eldrazi would help.  If you have two Pull from Eternities, you can cast one, exile it with rebound, then cast the other to pull that, exile it with rebound, and I'm not sure how you get them out of the graveyard.  But it may help with what you were planning.