Who wants to see a 4e Birthright?

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Lets get a rebirth of Birthright. Give me a wish list of what you'd like to see.
Lets get a rebirth of Birthright. Give me a wish list of what you'd like to see.

I have a set of conversion notes kicking around somewhere.....

Dundjinnmasta(??) on BR.net was also working on something. See my sig for a link.

However in the spirit of being encouraging and enjoying different takes I'd like to see your (or others) takes on integrating the magician class/concept, bloodlines & racial write up's.

On a more complex level the domain rules, war rules. Realm spells are easy but that would be interesting to see also.

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Nietzsche

TSR Worlds

Alternity

Birthright

I'd like to see a multi-class only class (like spell scarred in FR) for blooded characters, a rules for running a realm as a party using skill challenges, and a mass combat system (like in SWSE Clone Wars Campaign Guide). The biggest problem I had with BR in 2E was that everyone wanted to be a ruler. Once everyone had their fiefdom, it degenerated into a board game instead of D&D. Using skill challenges and letting the party run the realm as a group with a nominal figure head will go a long way towards keeping the feel of D&D and letting everyone get involved.
I'd like to see a multi-class only class (like spell scarred in FR) for blooded characters, a rules for running a realm as a party using skill challenges, and a mass combat system (like in SWSE Clone Wars Campaign Guide). The biggest problem I had with BR in 2E was that everyone wanted to be a ruler. Once everyone had their fiefdom, it degenerated into a board game instead of D&D. Using skill challenges and letting the party run the realm as a group with a nominal figure head will go a long way towards keeping the feel of D&D and letting everyone get involved.

Even when my players were rulers of different places I tied them together with a greater story line of adventures. Just depends how you run it.

As to 4e conversion. Head on over to BRnet. I have started some myself along with others.
The biggest problem I had with BR in 2E was that everyone wanted to be a ruler. Once everyone had their fiefdom, it degenerated into a board game instead of D&D.

This has always been my issue with birthright and is quite frankly part of why I want to see a 4e birthright about as much as I want to see a 4e council of wyrms (which for the record is next to not at all). I just don't see converting the system over without keeping this issue around or making it feel like something completely different.
I gotta say I absolutely loved Birthright and it was the source of my group's favorite campaigns. Everything revolved around how you, as the DM, organized the adventures. We did a series were one player was the king of Roesone, one the king of Aerenwe, one just a common thief, and the other the religious leader of a territory that stretched across both countries. I tied everything togther with an enemy that was threatening both countires. The day to day operations of the countries was left to trusted lieutenants so the PCs could roam freely. Periodically they returned to manage crisises and marshall their forces. As long as the threats applied to both countires and the personal interests of the other PCs, it kept things unified and all parties interested. We never had any issues and enjoyed it greatly.
I would be very interested in seeing this put together!
i want to see a 4th edition birthright, and i want the novels too.;)
4e and Birthright aren't working together: at least in the way you all expect it.. Dundjinnmasta is in a horrible fight over his power gaming and munchkin proclivities with the majority of the Simulationists and Actors on BR.Net.

Author of Elementalism in Atlas Games' Occult Lore. DAZ 3D

4e and Birthright aren't working together: at least in the way you all expect it.. Dundjinnmasta is in a horrible fight over his power gaming and munchkin proclivities with the majority of the Simulationists and Actors on BR.Net.

4e and Birthright work fine together, using a variation on the skill challenge concept you have a workable domain and mass combat system. One that could be very good with some professional input.

The bloodlines are easily conceivable as a multi-class option or even as a group of bloodline options, something I'd like to see explored.

Not everyone will have the same desired outcome in a conversion so your not going to please everyone no matter what. I never liked the 3e adaptation for example but it pleased many. Personally I feel that Dundjinnmasta's attempt fails on many levels, but that's me, as long as it works for him and his group what does it matter.

Early on in 4e's arrival I did my own conversion and whilst I haven't had a chance to playtest it honestly feel that it will achieve the same feel and fun factor as my original 2e games.

Birthright and 4e only don't work if we lack the energy, creativity or imagination to see how it CAN!

My .

Later days

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Nietzsche

TSR Worlds

Alternity

Birthright

Well,

The most important part about Birthright is that it is low magic powered. There are limitations on arcanists. Kings have divine blood, etc. More importantly, the types of adventures you have in BR are fundamentally different than the types of Adventures you have in FR or D&D.

There is a strong political aspect to BR, that is why characters tend to be more powerful than the usual character in D&D. Being powerful shifts the focus of adventure away from the "mundane." In BR, you run wars, collect taxes, go into the intrigues of court, etc. New powers need to be thought up, and old powers need to be done away with.

Of course you can have regular adventures with regular D&D characters; but you are most likely acting under a noble or king.

Author of Elementalism in Atlas Games' Occult Lore. DAZ 3D

I moved msg.
I don't know too much about Birthright, but the idea of playing royalty sounds pretty cool. You can add my name to the "Recreate Birthright" petition.

Just a thought, though? Anything that eliminates existing character options is unlikely to garner much support from WOTC. That is the complete opposite direction from where they are trying to take the game.

If we can come up with ideas of how everything can possibly be included, we might get them to consider officially publishing the setting for 4e.

For example, the restriction on Arcane characters? Why is that? Is it possible to assume that "the players are special," and leave it at that?

I did play in this setting a few years ago, but the guy that ran the game was.... confused..... about D&D at the time, so I doubt he portrayed the setting correctly. (He is a V:tR junkie.)
I also think the restrictions in Birthright have no place for a 4E conversion. I understand why they were there during 2E. The creators were trying to make the already euro style 2E default even more euro style trash. (No offense euro people, but your real life history has no place in my fantasy.) What drew me to birthright was the rules for ruling your own kingdom. Blood abilities had no appeal for me (something else for players to have who have their own special ability score rolling dice and never play a character without at least two 18s). Elves having no clerics or religion also sucked. It is almost like the creators were saying 'your character options shall be chosen by us, free and creative thought not welcome here'. But that was my biggest problem with 2E.
Birthright would work well with 4e using the skill systems. I wouldn't mind changing the clerics, and elves (it could be a new age of cerilia). I still have my birthright map on the wall, but it would be fine if the realm boundaries changes because it was the future. Same thing goes for no dragons (why? there are new ones). Send me an email if you want to get something started.

[email=talaxar@hotmail.com]talaxar@hotmail.com[/email]
I always thought it would be cool to say that the taint of Azrai had transformed the Manslayer's followers into Drow. The real question is deciding which elven nations are elven or eladrin. I am of the opinion those elves who switch sides at Mount Deismaar became elves while those who simply quit the field and departed became eladrin.

I am still working on my own rule conversions, last thing I need done are the ruling options to skill challenge.
For me I'm not sure a straight conversion is what would be desired.  It is safe to say that 4e has a tremendous amount of Planar source material that could be incorporated into the game.  I think while the Shadow Realm is mentioned in the Atlas, the Fey realm is clearly easy to incorporate (perhaps 'the Shadow Realm' is a broader term for the Shadow Realm and The Elemental Chaos).  Certainly the new gods would inhabit the Astral Sea.  So the origin story of a battle between the gods and Azrai can be easily the gods and Primordials and just shift Azrai as the leader of the Primordials.

There is probably little reason different races couldn't be added: Dragonborn, Teifling etc...they just weren't apart of the dominant realm builders in Cerilia.

I like the notion mentioned above of using the skill challenges as part of the regency/warfare aspect of Birthright.

Sources could be useful for ritual level limits I suppose. 

Bloodlines could be an extra power per tier.  Not unlike getting a magic item with a power - but it can only be taken away by those with a Bloodline 'magic item' through Bloodtheft - where you accumulate the xp associated with that level of 'Bloodline'.  If you like the notion of powerful bloodlines pick a magic item effect 3-5 levels higher than each tier level (Bloodline xp bonus) and just give it to the player.  So the heroic tier might start with a level 4-6 level magic item effect, paragon tier might gain a level 14-16 level magic item effect...and so on.  Just a thought.

I think what makes Birthright such an interesting campaign setting is the very rich tapestry of NPCs and their political ambitions.

In my own Birthright campaign, I decided that the Gorgon was harvesting Bloodlines because he wanted to become a god (2,000yrs wasn't enough - he needed/wanted immortality).  When he found the Serpent had indeed become a god (in my game) who had not pursued the Bloodline accumulation approach like the Gorgon, this became very vexing for the Gorgon as the strategy he had pursued for centuries may not work!  This created tremendous doubt in the Gorgon.



I would love to see a 4E treatment of Birthright and I think it could fit with the largely Gamist slant of the 4E system really well.  Separate systems for Bloodlines (mainly a Character option) and for running "Realms" (effectively a parallel game to the "adventuring" game) would be great additions to the D&D Game in general, IMO - and would enable play in Cerilia to boot.

As to the world itself, I loved the original background concept and the political texture, including the religious and mercantile stuff.  That there were churches/sects of the same god that had theological and doctrinal differences was very neat.  I also liked that it was not a "kitchen sink" world - sometimes, less really is more.  It's not like the PCs couldn't use magic - it's just that there were clear reasons that they were 'special'.

As to the "board game distraction", I think that can fit with the "low magic" tendency well.  Let players have more than one character - one a ruler who, when they reach Paragon level, 'slow down' and spend much of their time ruling the realm, the other a Herioc character who is their ruler's henchman/heir/field agent.  If the 'laws' of the world are that only Paragon characters can actually hold realms (as opposed to being under a Regency), it gives plenty of incentive for Blooded heroes to go adventuring.
======= Balesir
Could you approach ruling a domain in a 4E Birthright RPG much like George R.R. Martin describes ruling a domain in the Song of Fire and Ice?  An NPC rules the domain and the PCs take major roles of influence surrounding the NPC.  Example Baron X rules a small nation and the players include his childern (including illegitimate offspring), fosterlings, friends, diplomats from other kingdoms, exiles, advisors, clergy, and knights.  Perhaps at Paragon levels the role changes and the PC assume the rulership.
The standard Birthright rules allow for lieutenants and vassals and it is standard for PCs to initially act in service to a greater regent. Stjordvik even has a central king that owns only few holdings himself. He just has a lot of vassals (the jarls). Thus, they can do domain things without being the big boss.

The big question (to me) is how do bloodlines, blood abilities and domain actions all fit into the 4e scheme of things? Or how can 4e be tweaked to work well with Birthright?

I'm afraid I am not familiar with Martin's novels.

Sorontar
SilverFalcon my advice is NOT to read them.  They will jade you to all other fantasy novels.

I think 4E would have to tone down the bloodline powers or handle them in a fashion similar to Dragonmarks in Ebberon.
I'd love a 4e Birthright. Or, barring that, some sort of broader domain-rulership rules to go with 4e that are setting neutral.
I would love to see a 4e BR.  It was a great setting and has some awesome NPCs.  The world was one of our top campaigns we ever ran.  I know some had problems with PC rulers, but we did not at all.  The political aspects of the campaign was awesome. 

Some ideas I would have:

A campaign guide suggesting running 2 sets of PCs....1 set as rules and another set as adventuring champions from the domain.

Like others said....I think bloodline powers would be similar to dragonmarks.  It may be difficult to add the diversity in the 2E version, but perhaps selecting a feat for a bloodline linked to one of the god's bloodlines and then a choice of powers as channel divinity allows for divine characters along with a bonus to a skill.

The BR cosmology is different and I think Eberron established that it is okay to deviate on that to make a world work where needed.

The one thing that many have tried in 4e conversions is to make the humans of BR.  I think each nation would have their normal human bonus added to a particular stat (or choice between 2) and a skill added to their list.


I have been working on a 4e Birthright conversion and running a 4e Birthright campaign for the past year.  Poor schedules have made the game run much less frequently than we would like, but progress is steady.

I haven't had a big problem combining 4e and Birthright.  Not all 4e classes are available, and neither are all races.  Some classes are available to all races due to cultural differences (e.g. only elves may take the Avenger class [Gheal in Birthright], which is now Primal rather than Divine).  My players have enjoyed playing in a world with some restrictions.

I fall squarely between the so-called "simulationist" and "power-gaming" sides of the debate.  I just want  run a fun D&D world for my players to explore.
I think Birthright would be a perfect setting for a multi-player online videogame of roleplaying and economic strategy. 

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

dose anyone have a good conversion to 4E?  If so i love to see it. 

thanks
4e Birthright is rather pointless, when Reign does it so much better than 4e ever could.

Reign is built from the ground up to handle royalty, it has well integrated mechanics for companies, covering both political intrigue as well as tactics, and even operating with a squad or a platoon for important missions that need royal oversight. It can even handle several characters per player so depending on what needs to be done, different characters band together while the mechanics handle the other ones in the background.

Combat wise it's also just plain better. AD&D was never designed for hit locations and rules for it were never integrated terribly well even with optional supplements, d20 didn't change that and 4e has made it even less practical thanks to abstracting damage even more. Reign has hit locations built in, and one for the heart can be specified, so the whole idea of stealing blood powers works much better.

There's just no sense in doing Birthright for D&D 4e when doing it with Reign is far more natural and ends up much better.
We played campaigns for BR a couple of times. Each time we ended with a couple assassinations that lead to some real-world hard feelings. Kinda funny if you look back at it now. I don't know what "Reign" is but I'd love to see a 4th Ed BR...
I would prefer to see Birthright incorporated into the Points of Light Setting much the way Planescape and Spelljammer have been, rather than a whole campaign setting like Eberron and Forgotten Realms.

Skip Cerilia, but incorporate the ideas of bloodlines, domains, and regencies.  Themes, Paragon Paths, Epic Destinies, Rituals, and Martial Practices all seem like great ways to incorporate aspects of Birthright into the 4e milieu.  Couple this with an Unearthed Arcana rules on warfare.
4e Birthright is rather pointless, when Reign does it so much better than 4e ever could.




Reigns a great system.  I also like Fate (LOA) for Birthright but Burning Wheel is probably my favourite system to pipe dream a conversion for.

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Nietzsche

TSR Worlds

Alternity

Birthright

What I hate must about Birthright was the whole blood ability system and bloodtheft made it worst.  My personal experence with Birthright was with a group who only wanted to be a regent to get the extra 10hp.  They didnt even want to do any of the ruling parts.  Basically, they were pure hack/slashers and they about kill each other just to get a chance at bloodtheft.  I hate it when I buy a new book for the group to use and they only turn it to the spell section to see if there was anything more powerful then they currently were using.  When they found nothing, they toss the book back to me saying I was a fool in buying it in the first place only to be ask a half a year later if they could use the book because of some new option they heard about.  I agree with the idea of having a core version of Birthright 4ed.  Give me rules for ruling a kingdom and leading armies to war, but do not offer up new over the top powers for any sellsword who wish to be king for a day.
I think Birthright could support both a game of rulership and a game for regular adventuring. It would be great to see the idea see print again, really took the idea of divine right via bloodlines and ran with it!
I just think that if someone wants to raise their bloodline, it should be because of a rule action or for leading their army successfully.  Too many times the party I play with just travel to the location of a rival regent, slash/hack their way in, and bloodtheft the regent.  The must famous line in the campaign was "We will destory all you see here" from party's Paladin to Goblin King.
hm...

New hope for 5e or 4.5 or what's it gonna be?

I'd certainly approve! 

I would love to see a 5e Birthright setting.