Standing up from Prone = Opportunity Attack?

34 posts / 0 new
Last post
Does standing up from prone provoke an OA from adjacent foes? I know it is considered a move action but is it a shift?
No, AFAIK standing up doesn't provoke.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1095104

Standing up from prone is not one of the things that prvokes OA. Look to #60 on the list.
Does standing up from prone provoke an OA from adjacent foes? I know it is considered a move action but is it a shift?

It is not a shift, but it does not provoke an OA. Only TWO things provoke OAs:

1. Using a ranged or area attack.
2. Leaving a square via the Walk or Run actions.
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
It is not a shift, but it does not provoke an OA. Only TWO things provoke OAs:

1. Using a ranged or area attack.
2. Leaving a square via the Walk or Run actions.

Using any ranged power provokes an OA. Not just attacks.

Page 290 of PHB: “Ranged and Area Powers Provoke: If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area power, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy.”
It is not a shift, but it does not provoke an OA. Only TWO things provoke OAs:

1. Using a ranged or area attack.
2. Leaving a square via the Walk or Run actions.

Lots of other things provoke OAs. The two you referenced are just the only ones that every creature can perform when they are adjacent to an enemy.
Lots of other things provoke OAs. The two you referenced are just the only ones that every creature can perform when they are adjacent to an enemy.

For example...?

TBP
Polearm Gamble(feat)
Warpriest's Challenge(Warpriest PP feature)
Beast Protector(feat)
Stonefoot Reprisal(feat)
Viper's Strike(Warlord At-Will)
Pursuit of the Wild Hunt(Ranger Daily Power-lasts for an encounter)
Through the Fingers(GiantSlayer PP feature)

I would guess that there are more. I was just working from memory and from the copy of Martial Power I have at hand.

Plus there are things that grant basic attacks as opportunity actions:
Staggering Spin(Warlord Daily Power)
Exhorted Counterattack(Warlord Daily Power)
Abrupt Skirmish(Warlord Encounter Power)

I don't know what the difference between an opportunity attack and a basic attack granted as an opportunity action is since "The most common form of opportunity action is an opportunity attack-a melee basic attack against the creature that provokes it." But that's really a different discussion.
Polearm Gamble(feat)
Warpriest's Challenge(Warpriest PP feature)
Beast Protector(feat)
Stonefoot Reprisal(feat)
Viper's Strike(Warlord At-Will)
Pursuit of the Wild Hunt(Ranger Daily Power-lasts for an encounter)
Through the Fingers(GiantSlayer PP feature)

I would guess that there are more. I was just working from memory and from the copy of Martial Power I have at hand.

Plus there are things that grant basic attacks as opportunity actions:
Staggering Spin(Warlord Daily Power)
Exhorted Counterattack(Warlord Daily Power)
Abrupt Skirmish(Warlord Encounter Power)

I don't know what the difference between an opportunity attack and a basic attack granted as an opportunity action is since "The most common form of opportunity action is an opportunity attack-a melee basic attack against the creature that provokes it." But that's really a different discussion.

But none of those things provoke opportunity attacks. They all grant OAs.

In 4e, there are 2 things that provoke OAs.

TBO
You're right of course. How is that different?

Would it be true to say that moving from a square non-adjacent to a creature with the Polearm Gamble feat and wielding a polearm into a square adjacent to a creature with the Polearm Gamble feat and wielding a polearm provokes an OA?
Is there some mechanical difference between OAs that are provoked and OAs that are granted?

I'm not being snarky, just curious.
Those powers are all a case of specific overriding general.

The general rule is that only two types of things (using a ranged or area power, or moving out of a threatened space) provoke an OA. Standing up is neither of those, so in absence of some power or ability that would grant an OA when someone stands up, no OA occurs.
You're right of course. How is that different?

If an OA is granted, it's because of what the enemy has.
If an OA is provoked, it's because of what I have done - my choice.

They grant themselves OAs, vs I provoke an OA.
We can't control (or remember) what powers they have, but we choose to provoke or not.
I understand the the difference grammatically. Though in the case of the Warpriest's Challenge, the enemy would be aware of the condition that had been applied to them and would have to make a choice to ignore that condition.

I was asking whether or not there was a difference mechanically. Does the word provoke carry with it some power in the 4E system?
I was asking whether or not there was a difference mechanically. Does the word provoke carry with it some power in the 4E system?

Nope.

Err, as far as I know, anyways.
I was wondering mainly because I got politely jumped on when I said that other things provoke and thus figured that provoke meant something specific to the system.
You're right of course. How is that different?

A provoked OA happens as a reaction, and can only be used against the target that prvoked it.

A granted OA typically happens as a result of an ally using a power, and as such can generally be used on any target that's eligible, not just a single target whose action provoked it.

They're different triggers and can affect the legal targets for the attacks. It's not a huge hairy deal, but conflating the two could cause some confusion, depending on circumstances.

-Lefty
Jim Crocker, Managing Partner Modern Myths, LLC Northampton, MA www.modern-myths.com
A granted OA typically happens as a result of an ally using a power, and as such can generally be used on any target that's eligible, not just a single target whose action provoked it.

I'm mostly certain this is not true. All the powers that allow players to make OAs are quite explicit about who the target has to be.

Could it be that you are thinking of basic melee attacks that are granted, e.g., by Commander's Strike?
I'm mostly certain this is not true. All the powers that grant OAs are quite explicit about who the target has to be.

Well, yeah, that's the 'eligible target'. More specifically, it's the actions/positions of the attackers that determine the target with a granted OA, as opposed to the defender/target, with a provoked OA. If a Warlord has 3 enemies adjacent to him and the ally he wants to Hammer and Anvil with (all of which are 'eligible targets' under normal circumstances) he gets to pick which one gets hit.

-Lefty
Jim Crocker, Managing Partner Modern Myths, LLC Northampton, MA www.modern-myths.com
Except that Hammer and Anvil doesn't give anybody an attack of opportunity. It gives them a basic melee attack.

In general attacks of opportunity are basic melee attacks.
Not all basic melee attacks are attack of opportunity.
But none of those things provoke opportunity attacks. They all grant OAs.

In 4e, there are 2 things that provoke OAs.

TBO

Upon further investigation there are actually 4 more things that provoke OAs.

Viper Strike(PHB p.145): "Effect: If the target shifts before the start of your next turn, it provokes an opportunity attack from an ally of your choice."

Hounding Beast(MP p.53): "Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target provokes opportunity attacks from you if it shifts or attacks on its next turn."

Pursuit of the Wild Hunt(MP p.57): "Effect: Until the end of the encounter, before you take any actions on each of your turns, you can take a free action to command your beast companion to shift its speed to a space closer or adjacent to the target. In addition, the target provokes an opportunity attack from your beast companion whenever the target shifts or makes an attack that doesn't include the beast as a target."

Beast Protector(MP p.132): "Benefit: If an enemy makes a melee attack against your beast companion, doing so provokes an opportunity attack from you. If you are adjacent to your beast companion, you can make this attack even if you can't reach the attacker (you attack the attacker's reaching limb, for instance)."

So other things actually do provoke given certain circumstances.

All of this is assuming that the word provoke has some special meaning, something I'm not sure of. In the opportunity attack section under the heading "Moving Provokes:" the book says "If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against the enemy."

That phrase, "you can make an opportunity attack against the enemy," is what pops up in almost all of the the other powers, feats and paragon paths that create new conditions that trigger OAs. Thus I'm not sure there is any difference as far as the game is concerned between when an enemy "provokes an opportunity attack" and when "you can make an opportunity attack."
Upon further investigation there are actually 4 more things that provoke OAs.

Perhaps NovaCat didn't word his response 100%, but I think his point was...

All characters (PC and NPC) have two general ways they can provoke an OA

1. Using a ranged or area powers while adjacent to an enemy.
2. Leaving a square via the Walk or Run actions.

Anything other than this would be specific to the power, feat, ability, etc.
I understand the the difference grammatically. Though in the case of the Warpriest's Challenge, the enemy would be aware of the condition that had been applied to them and would have to make a choice to ignore that condition.

Well, the only condition that applies to the target that he would be aware of is he is marked. But the target would not know that if he shifts or attacks another target, that he would provoke an OA. That isn't part of the Marked condition, that is part of the Warpriest's Challenge (which is a class ability, not a condition).
I don't remember the page that it was on, but I thought the subject of a power knew all the effects on them, not just conditions. Ongoing damage, if they were marked, if they will take damage for moving, so on and so forth.
Perhaps NovaCat didn't word his response 100%, but I think his point was...

All characters (PC and NPC) have two general ways they can provoke an OA

1. Using a ranged or area powers while adjacent to an enemy.
2. Leaving a square via the Walk or Run actions.

Anything other than this would be specific to the power, feat, ability, etc.

I thinks that's fair, though I would say that the two most common ways that OAs are provoked are when a creature... etc. I was really just responding to his "Only TWO" statement and wanted to point out that it wasn't strictly true.

The two ways listed are two of the many ways that OAs can be provoked. They just happen to be the ones that everyone can perform.
Except that Hammer and Anvil doesn't give anybody an attack of opportunity. It gives them a basic melee attack.

In general attacks of opportunity are basic melee attacks.
Not all basic melee attacks are attack of opportunity.

Ah, crud, yeah, you're right, sorry, bad example.

What I meant to say was, *ahem* "No, standing up from prone neither provokes nor grants an Opportunity Attack."

Uh.. next question? :D

-Lefty
Jim Crocker, Managing Partner Modern Myths, LLC Northampton, MA www.modern-myths.com
All characters (PC and NPC) have two general ways they can provoke an OA

1. Using a ranged or area powers while adjacent to an enemy.
2. Leaving a square via the Walk or Run actions.

#2 should read "...Leaving a square except by shifting."

Otherwise you could use a power that let you move, and avoid OA. For example, Deft Strike, or even a Charge.

If you're going to make a strong claim like that, at least be more careful how you state it.

Smeelbo
#2 should read ...

"...Leaving a square except by shifting or teleporting. Or being pushed, pulled, or slid."

Or are 'pushed, pulled, or slid' types of shifting?
Chandrak's awesome solutions to the 5-minute workday 'problem'
97183719 wrote:
Seeing as there is a disconnect between balance (quantifiable) and fun, (subjective and personal) discussing fun in a thread about balance because you find one system more enjoyable than another is as helpful as discussing religion in a thread about architectural engineering because you think cathedrals look prettier than outhouses.
"...Leaving a square except by shifting or teleporting. Or being pushed, pulled, or slid."

Or are 'pushed, pulled, or slid' types of shifting?

No, they're Forced Movement. (Which is also the easier way to say all three at once ;) )

-Lefty
Jim Crocker, Managing Partner Modern Myths, LLC Northampton, MA www.modern-myths.com
#2 should read "...Leaving a square except by shifting."

Smeelbo

No, because Shifting (and teleporting and forced movement) specifically says that it doesn't provoke AOs. This supersedes the general rule that leaving a threatened square provokes, so it doesn't have to say that.
The long and the short of it being...

since you aren't "leaving" the square or making some sort of non-close attack when you stand up...

you don't provoke an OA.

Summarily-

SW
The long and the short of it being...

since you aren't "leaving" the square or making some sort of non-close attack when you stand up...

you don't provoke an OA.

Summarily-

SW

A very nice summary. for you!

TBP

Thanks everyone for the cogent discussion.


In our campaign we devised a house rule for standing up, because we all thought that the simple act of standing up should not necesarrily take the same amount of time (a move action) as moving 30 feet; and we thought that, unless you are taking special care, you should be vulnerable (provoke an OA) if you are getting up off the ground while adjacent to an enemy.


So, we decided that you have two options for standing. You can stand quickly and unguardedly, or you can stand up cautiously.


Mechanically, then, there are two options:
1. you may stand as a minor action, but you provoke opportunity attacks.
2. you may stand as a move action, and you do not provoke opportunity attacks.

Cheers,
Afet

"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not let my mind wander. It's too small to go off by itself"

Danilo Thann

Well, the standing rules already assume a degree of special care, in that you don't provoke OAs.  Mechanically, the "stand" action is a move action that removes the "prone" condition, which is a relatively unpleasant condition (and non-trivial to apply).

My concern with your house rule is that you've significantly weakened the effect of "prone".  A prone enemy adjacent to foes has the option to provoke an OA but otherwise use their two main actions as normal (moving away won't suffer a second OA since you already suffered one when standing).  A distant foe can negate prone with minimal cost.
My concern with your house rule is that you've significantly weakened the effect of "prone". 


I agree that our house rule weekens the effect of being knocked prone.  We have found, however, that being able to stand as a minor increases dynamism of the game play, by allowing everyone/everything on the field to move about more.  For us, the benefit is worth the cost.

"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not let my mind wander. It's too small to go off by itself"

Danilo Thann