Rules you didn't realize

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Also, here's a fun trick to pull, get your fighter to mark enemy X, now get a character who's resilient to OA's to provoke an OA from enemy X, the fighter's CC will proc off the OA from enemy X, and the fighter gets to attack him.

Yes, OAs are part of the tactical landscape, even if not used. The threat of OAs is always present, hence an escalating race between powers to increase them and powers to avoid them.

For example, marking (I have a paladin, but fighter/other defender also works) can be a useful way to avoid OAs, such as the example above. If my paladin uses Divine Challenge on an enemy, then it allows the Warlock to move away from or past the enemy due to the disincentive (taking damage) of making the OA.

As a defender you should probably try not to think of this as a "fun trick" (trying to get more damage, which is the striker role), but as an additional tool for protecting the party by providing a disincentive and preventing enemies from taking OAs.

Maybe it's not really a rule to realize, but more a tip for 4e:

* Be happy, and glorious, with the role of your character -- don't try and turn your defender into a striker, but make them the best defender they can be.
I assume it represents your mind operating on a higher intellectual level than the person swinging/shooting at you, so that you not an objects speed and trajectory and move your body just enough to evade it.

In fact I could see a magic item or feat that allows wis to apply to AC instead, for a Jedi type "let the force guide your movements" defense. Or maybe Charisma for 'blind dumb luck' where you happen to bend over to get a penny just as someone fires the arrow.

But knowing the trajectory of a weapon doesn't mean your agile enough to avoid it. but I get the basic premise of what they mean. A highly inteligent person can more than likely can ascertain what a person is going to do next, and therefore prepare accordingly. Being able to predict a sword swing certainly has its advantages.
* Be happy, and glorious, with the role of your character -- don't try and turn your defender into a striker, but make them the best defender they can be.

I completely disagree with this statement. The class roles are indicators of what the class is designed to do, but the character is yours. If you want to play a divine melee combatant who stands toe-to-toe smashing evil in the name of Pelor, not babysitting the clothies and making sure nobody hits them, then feel free to make a paladin striker hybrid.

The rogue I'm playing right now is focused not on damage but on battlefield control. I've taken every power which lets me move someone around, knock them down, or force them to grant combat advantage. I still do decent damage, but its not my focus.
But knowing the trajectory of a weapon doesn't mean your agile enough to avoid it. but I get the basic premise of what they mean. A highly inteligent person can more than likely can ascertain what a person is going to do next, and therefore prepare accordingly. Being able to predict a sword swing certainly has its advantages.

Well see, reading a person to see what they would do next I would attribute to Wisdom not Int. In my mind, Int-based defense would be:

"I recognize the symbol on his blade as the mark of a Khorvaire regular. I remember perusing one of their training manuals once, so this shouldn't be too difficult so long as he sticks to his training. His last cut was a fast downwards diagonal slice from left to right, so his next move should be a feint to the right followed by a quick jab to the midsection. If I sidestep at precisely the right time, his blade will pass by harmlessly, overbalancing him, and I will be able to throw off a Burning Hands as he recovers."
good point,

but I think your example also illustrates wisdom. Experience is wisdom, so knowing about the fighting moves from previous experience would be wisdom. Inteligence is cognative power that doesn't rely on previous knowledge. at least thats how I look at it.. How are you differing the two?
there is chef saying that relates.

Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit,, wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.
good point,

but I think your example also illustrates wisdom. Experience is wisdom, so knowing about the fighting moves from previous experience would be wisdom. Inteligence is cognative power that doesn't rely on previous knowledge. at least thats how I look at it.. How are you differing the two?

The knowledge was not from previous experience. It was from once briefly reading the training course book for the Khorvaire Regulars. Wisdom would indeed be if he knew because he had previously fought many of said regulars.
ack, dupe post
The knowledge was not from previous experience. It was from once briefly reading the training course book for the Khorvaire Regulars. Wisdom would indeed be if he knew because he had previously fought many of said regulars.

Isn't wisdom that garnished from either experience or reading the same? Its knowledge that adds to your wisdom,, the source if it be read or experienced shouldn't matter. (In my opinion)

Intelligence would be about deductive reasoning, and should exist outside of garnered knowledge. Quickly formulating the arc and distance of a shot arrow and calculating its destination would be intelligence. Having read the Idiots guide to archery and knowing the range of a longbow would be wisdom. at least thats how I perceive it.
With Expeditious Stride (Ranger Utility 10, PHB pg108), an Elven Ranger can run 45 squares a round for two rounds.

With Longstrider (Ranger Daily 16, PHB pg 110) in effect beforehand, increase that to 51/round.

Add in Hunter's Grace (Beast Stalker Utility 12, PHB pg 114), and you can shift your speed in squares as a free action... as this would be before any other actions, that'd be an extra 7 squares if you win the initiative check for a total of 58 for the first round.

Someone check my math on that and/or let me know if I'm misinterpreting anything.

Ok, I've found the theoretical top speed for an elf, I think.

Ok, establish that you're a 21st+ Elven Beast Master Ranger, Multiclassed to Swordmage (base move 7), with the feats Fleet Footed (+1 to speed) and Fast Runner (+2 to running/charging speed, stacks with Fleet Footed per PHB pg 192). You're wearing Boots of Withdrawal and you're bloodied (+4 speed). You've also got a Star Opal Ring on (+1 speed) and a Ring of Fey Travel (+1 speed). In addition, you're also wearing a Robe of Defying Flames, a Quickening Diadem(AV, pg144), and a Cloak of the Cautious. Finally, you're holding a Charm of Abundant Action in your hand. You'd have a base speed of 14, running base speed of 18.

Earlier today, you hit a milestone and have a second Action Point available. AFAIK, this also gives you an additional Daily Magic Item Power, as I read it (PHB, pg 226)

About half an hour ago, you consumed an Elixir of Speed (+2 speed) (Speed 16/20).

You'd have to have Longstrider (Ranger Daily 16, PHB pg 110 :+2 to speed, five minutes) in effect prior to combat, but less than five minutes before the encounter, so the stance persists. (Speed 18/22)

As No Action as the encounter starts, you invoke Eldritch Speed (Swordmage Utility 2, FRPG pg 28). This gives you an extra move action during the first round of combat.

Successfully winning initiative with a Stealth Check using Hunter's Grace (Beast Stalker Utility 12, PHB pg 114) to get the first action of the encounter, you can shift your current speed... 18 squares. You do so... through a large campfire. You take damage, and as an immediate interrupt, invoke the power of the Robe of Defying Flames, giving you a +2 speed bonus to Run (Speed 18/24). This is your first Daily Magic Item Power.

You'd then spend a minor action to activate the Cloak of the Cautious, gaining a +5 speed bonus (speed 23, running speed 29). This is your second Daily Magic Item Power

Then you run (aided by Fast Runner) 29 squares as a Move Action... (47)
You then run another 29 squares as a Move Action instead of a Standard Action... (76)
You'd take your extra Move action from Eldritch Speed to run for another 29... (105)
As a Free Action, you utilize the Quickening Diadem (third daily magic item) to get another move action for another 29 squares... (134)
You then spend an Action Point for another move action to move 29 squares... (163).
You invoke the Charm of Abundant Action(fourth daily magic item) and spend a SECOND action point, using it as a move action... (192)

So.. 192 squares in one turn as an Elf. That's (74x5) 960 feet, or 160 feet per second... slightly more than 109 miles per hour.

That's one fast elf.
Isn't wisdom that garnished from either experience or reading the same? Its knowledge that adds to your wisdom,, the source if it be read or experienced shouldn't matter. (In my opinion)

Intelligence would be about deductive reasoning, and should exist outside of garnered knowledge. Quickly formulating the arc and distance of a shot arrow and calculating its destination would be intelligence. Having read the Idiots guide to archery and knowing the range of a longbow would be wisdom. at least thats how I perceive it.

See I always thought of having and applying a lot of knowledge gained through study would be Int. To use my example, knowing theoretically that the next swing should be a feint and jab would be Int. Noting the way his body tenses and reading his eyes to know the strike is a feint would be wisdom. -shrug- I guess its all in the eye of the beholder.
I see your point for sure,

but I account knowledge as wisdom. Intelligence is raw brain power.

it seems trivial to me, to say that knowlege gained from a book is inteligent, yet knowledge gained from experience is wisdom. To me knowledge is knowledge despite how you learned it. Intelligence however is raw brainpower. How much horsepower you got in the ole Noggin. High intelligence means you learn quickly, can formulate complicated mathmatical formulas in your head, quick witted, etc..

a stupid dwarf who lives to be 230 years old, who can only read at a slow pace, can be very knowledgable if he sits and does nothing but read all day, that doesn't make him smart, only wise. A young elf at the age of 7 maybe casting 2nd level spells, that makes her smart, but that doesn't mean she knows to kill a troll you need fire or acid.
#5.
The starting HP of a character is their Class HP + their CON score, not their CON modifier. This is the most common 'oversight' I saw in players who've played 3.x before.

THIS! We damn near SCRAPPED 4e during our first game, because we had so much trouble due to this. Party kept wiping on the most simple encounters.

Because the Fighter only had 19 hp, and his healing surges only gave 4 hp...

With his 33 hp, and 8 hp healing surges, we're doing much better.
Brew'N Games: A Homebrewing Blog, Both Games and Beer. "The Sky is Falling Like a Sock of Cocaine in the Ministry of Information..." - Man Man, Black Mission Goggles
To use a real-world example though... if you read a book on using computers cover to cover and then sit down to do something, you only have theoretical knowledge. Things may not match up with what you've read, or you may have understood it wrong, and you will have to apply your intellect to making the knowledge match the reality.

If you have been using computers for years, and are asked to do something you've never done before, you have years of experience to fall back on. You will likely know many of the basics even though you have never studied, and will have some idea of where to begin.

In my eyes, a fresh-from-the-academy detective is int based. A grizzled, experienced, 18-months-from-retirement detective is based around wisdom.
To use a real-world example though... if you read a book on using computers cover to cover and then sit down to do something, you only have theoretical knowledge. Things may not match up with what you've read, or you may have understood it wrong, and you will have to apply your intellect to making the knowledge match the reality.

If you have been using computers for years, and are asked to do something you've never done before, you have years of experience to fall back on. You will likely know many of the basics even though you have never studied, and will have some idea of where to begin.

In my eyes, a fresh-from-the-academy detective is int based. A grizzled, experienced, 18-months-from-retirement detective is based around wisdom.

to me thats the same thing. a fresh from academy detective and a grizzled experienced 18-month from retirement detective both get their experince from the same basic source. The senior detective got his knowledge from personal experience. The graduate got his knowledge from other people's experience (teachers) Its the same exact thing, just differant sources. Now intelligence would dictate how fast one assumes said knowledge, how to apply it, and how best to use it. If two students went to school to be a detective and then had 10 years after of experience.(both exactly the same) the one with more intelligence would have better assimulated the knowledge and applied it better. Intelligence to me has nothing to do with information gained, but on how quick its assimilated, how easily its formulated and used. and how efficeitnly the information is used.

after all why would skills from a recent grad be intelligent base, yet a grizzled detectine have skills that are wisdom based? aren't they both the same class? should not their skills be based on the same applicable attribute?
to me thats the same thing. a fresh from academy detective and a grizzled experienced 18-month from retirement detective both get their experince from the same basic source. The senior detective got his knowledge from personal experience. The graduate got his knowledge from other people's experience (teachers) Its the same exact thing, just differant sources. Now intelligence would dictate how fast one assumes said knowledge, how to apply it, and how best to use it. If two students went to school to be a detective and then had 10 years after of experience.(both exactly the same) the one with more intelligence would have better assimulated the knowledge and applied it better. Intelligence to me has nothing to do with information gained, but on how quick its assimilated, how easily its formulated and used. and how efficeitnly the information is used.

after all why would skills from a recent grad be intelligent base, yet a grizzled detectine have skills that are wisdom based? aren't they both the same class? should not their skills be based on the same applicable attribute?

As I said, its all in the eye of the beholder. We both have different but valid opinions on the subject.
The problem with that metaphor is that in D&D, experience doesn't mean "higher Wisdom", it means "higher level".
As I said, its all in the eye of the beholder. We both have different but valid opinions on the subject.

yes indeed my friend!
Then you run (aided by Fast Runner) 29 squares as a Move Action... (47)
You then run another 29 squares as a Move Action instead of a Standard Action... (76)
You'd take your extra Move action from Eldritch Speed to run for another 29... (105)
As a Free Action, you utilize the Quickening Diadem (third daily magic item) to get another move action for another 29 squares... (134)
You then spend an Action Point for another move action to move 29 squares... (163).
You invoke the Charm of Abundant Action(fourth daily magic item) and spend a SECOND action point, using it as a move action... (192)

So.. 192 squares in one turn as an Elf. That's (74x5) 960 feet, or 160 feet per second... slightly more than 109 miles per hour.

That's one fast elf.

Sorry, you only get to go 163 squares. You cannot use more than 1 Action Point per encounter.

The Elf is still honkin along though.



I always interpreted the Intellegence bonus to AC as "I can see he is leaning slightly to the right and is tensing his upper chest muscles, this means he is probably going to make a horizontal swing from the right and i need to sway backwards away from it now."
Sorry, you only get to go 163 squares. You cannot use more than 1 Action Point per encounter.

The Elf is still honkin along though.

Actually, you CAN use a second action point, if you use the Charm of Abundant Action :

Charm of Abundant Action
Power (Encounter): Free Action. Use this power on your
turn to spend an action point (assuming you have one
available). You can spend the action point even if you
spent an action point earlier in the encounter. You must
be holding the charm when you spend the second action
point.
Also, here's a fun trick to pull, get your fighter to mark enemy X, now get a character who's resilient to OA's to provoke an OA from enemy X, the fighter's CC will proc off the OA from enemy X, and the fighter gets to attack him.

You don't have to take an OA. That's one of the purposes of combat challenge. It makes the marked target have to think twice about taking those opportunity attacks when they come up.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
Two things: One, I'll state it to make it official, and get it on the main page: You are not limited to one OA per round. Rather, you get one OA per each combatant's turn.

Second, why does it say on the main page that you don't get max sneak on a crit? I thought we established that you DO. It seems pretty clear that the only damage not maxed is special damage directly resultant from the crit (i.e. magic weapon dice); everything else gets maxed out. Didn't the FAQ say this? Where am I wrong here?

- Johnny
You're correct, anything not reliant on a crit actually happening is maxed.

Always a GM, never a player (not really but sometimes feels like it).

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I always interpreted the Intellegence bonus to AC as "I can see he is leaning slightly to the right and is tensing his upper chest muscles, this means he is probably going to make a horizontal swing from the right and i need to sway backwards away from it now."

or that your smart enough to know that sharp pointy things hurt and if one is sent in your direction by whatever force you should take immediate action to avoid such pointy thing. ;)
or that your smart enough to know that sharp pointy things hurt and if one is sent in your direction by whatever force you should take immediate action to avoid such pointy thing. ;)

That would be the Dexterity bonus though, quick reactions and whatnot.


I always interpreted Dex as how quick your body is and Intel as how quick your mind is.
Looks liked I've missed at least one so far? Max sneak attack damage on a crti? I'll be more then happy to change that. Can someone get me a reference for this, either for or against?

Oh, and #54 is the next one, so don't forget to include the rule # as well as book reference.

Tony...
Looks liked I've missed at least one so far? Max sneak attack damage on a crti? I'll be more then happy to change that. Can someone get me a reference for this, either for or against?

Besides the repeated (and consistent) rulings on this aspect, IMO, the next best place to look is the example on p.276 of the PHB:

Example: Valenae. a 12th-level eladrin paladin, hits a foe with thunder smite. The attack deals 2[W] + Strength modifier thunder damage and knocks the target prone. The damage would be 2d8 (longsword’s 1d8
#38 is not exactly true. Targets of forced push, pull or slide do get a saving throw to move through difficult terrain or avoid pits, etc. However they do NOT get a saving throw from forced teleportation.

I'd also change the wording of #51. Wording and particularly Key Words are very important in 4th ed. I'd recommend changing it from;

#51 - (PHB 290) Close blast is not considered "Ranged" or "Area" and as such does not provoke OA.

to;

#51 - (PHB 290) Close Blast or Close Burst do not have the keyword "Ranged" or "Area" and as such do not provoke OA.
Besides the repeated (and consistent) rulings on this aspect, IMO, the next best place to look is the example on p.276 of the PHB:

That's the beauty of it all, Deth. I didn't feel the need to scour and research through past posts for "repeated (and consistent) rulings". I've been DMing for 29 years now, and when I need rule clarifications or tasty snacks I leave it to my players.

Thanks, player. :D
I didn't realize you couldn't use a power-swap feat on a power from your Paragon Path or Epic Destiny (PHB p. 209).

A stupid rule, in my opinion. Some of the Paragon Paths have powers that are a good bit worse than lower-level powers from their original class.
Except Shifting doesn't provoke (except for the Fighter's Combat Challenge), meaning the artillery foe can shift out of reach of the guy right next to him and then fire away. As for 'passing the fighter to get to the wizard in the back' it's actually very easy to run far enough around the fighter to get to the wizard without provoking OA's. Unless, of course, you have multiple fighters standing around the wizard protecting him from all sides which is rarely the case in my experience.

My point is that there are so few things that provoke OA's that I'm surprised that so many abilities and feats are dependent on them.

Except that shift does not provoke OAs, not even from the Fighter's Combat Challenge. PH76: Combat Challenge grants the fighter a basic melee attack when the enemy shifts or makes an attack that doesn't include the fighter.

It's not an OA and the fighter's Combat Superiority doesn't come into play either. So the fighter doesn't get the WIS bonus and the enemy can continue moving after the shift resolves.
Don't forget to include the rule # when adding a rule you didn't realize at first. We're now on rule #55.
Don't forget to include the rule # when adding a rule you didn't realize at first. We're now on rule #55.

My group was playing at first that the fighter CC would stop a shift because of the Combat Superiority. I've met a few other groups that thought that at first too.
My group was playing at first that the fighter CC would stop a shift because of the Combat Superiority. I've met a few other groups that thought that at first too.

Ah, because it was listed as an Immediate Interrupt? I think it took a few of us looking that over the first day of play just to make sure because a few of us didn't think that stopping the shift sounded right, as well.

#55 - (PHB 76) When a fighters Combat Challenge is trigged due to a marked, adjacent enemy shifting, the shift is not interrupted. It's just that the triggered action (melee basic attack by the fighter) occurs before the shift is completed.
Actually, you CAN use a second action point, if you use the Charm of Abundant Action :

Charm of Abundant Action
Power (Encounter): Free Action. Use this power on your
turn to spend an action point (assuming you have one
available). You can spend the action point even if you
spent an action point earlier in the encounter. You must
be holding the charm when you spend the second action
point.

You do not get to use 2 APs on the same turn, :D . So your idea although creative not RAW.
You do not get to use 2 APs on the same turn, :D . So your idea although creative not RAW.

Is this right?
Charm of Abundant Action
Power (Encounter): Free Action. Use this power on your
turn to spend an action point (assuming you have one
available). You can spend the action point even if you
spent an action point earlier in the encounter
. You must
be holding the charm when you spend the second action
point.

Bolded for emphasis

The RAW says you can use 2 in the same turn, or at least I read it as saying you can. 'Earlier in the encounter' means anytime this encounter previous to using the Charm of Abundant Action power, and that would include earlier this turn.
Dunno, it's not specific. The Charm of Abundant Action is already breaking the rules in relation to Action Points, since it's deliberately bypassing the rules i'd say you can use it to spend a second action point in the same turn, since it doesn't explicitly say you cannot.
A creature has Total Concealment if there is 5 squares of lightly obscured terrain between him and another character. So a Spellstorm Mage's Sudden Storm ability grants Total Concealment if placed between himself and an enemy, and both are outside the area of effect.

Concealment: A creature has total concealment against you if 5 or more lightly obscured squares stand between you and it (including the nearest square of the creature’s space). Closer creatures have concealment, but not total concealment.

A creature has Total Concealment if there is 5 squares of lightly obscured terrain between him and another character. So a Spellstorm Mage's Sudden Storm ability grants Total Concealment if placed between himself and an enemy, and both are outside the area of effect.

Not any more. The errata has changed the way concealment works:

"Replace the first “Concealment” paragraph with the following:
Concealment: A target in a lightly obscured space has concealment. Delete the two “Vision” paragraphs.
"

TBP
#3 -

Powers with Effect is but a subset of all the powers available in the PHB. That is why the line states that there are 'many powers that produce effects'. It does not mean that there is a smaller subset of powers within those that have the Effect line come into play regardless of hit or miss. If that is the case, how are we to adjudicate which power's Effect come into play and which don't on a miss?

#6 - (PHB 208) The class-specific multiclass *snip*>

If I did not read it wrong, while it is not stated in all the multiclass feats, the Warlock multiclass specifically states "you can pursue the warlock paragon path based on that pact (PHB 208)" So, yes, I think if we extrapolate from there, a player can take on Paragon Paths by taking only that one multiclass feat. This means that while you still continue progressing in your original class, you obtain the paragon path's powers even though it is not from your original class (PHB 53). For example:

A fighter who has the Pact Initiate feat (Warlock multiclass) and chooses the Fey Pact, can go for the Feytouched paragon path instead of the Fighter's own paragon paths. He, however, still follows the fighter level progression of learning powers instead of the warlocks.

On PHB 209, by having all multiclass feats, you can choose to forgo taking a paragon path in order to obtain more powers from your second class. This is an option open only to those who has all multiclass feats.


-- A rule concerning magic items that got me really confused on the first time I read it. But it's all clear now:

If a Magic Item has a Power that includes the Healing Surge keyword, after expanding it, you can spend a Standard action and a healing surge to recharge the item. To use the item again is yet another separate action. Although to be sure, I have seen only one of such items. Bracers of Rejuvenation, AV 115.
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