Rules you didn't realize

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One good example of how to force an enemy to take OA's, get your party Rogue to flank with the Fighter. The enemy now has a choice, risk the two OA's and try to escape, shift one to risk one OA and get out of flank, or take 2d6 (or 2d8) extra damage from the Rogue.

OA's are quite rare, especially if you have very paranoid players. Most of my players have worked out that 4E chars are fairly durable and thus taking the occasional OA can be worth it to get to the Artillery monsters faster, this is especially true for Halflings, Artful Dodger Rogues and characters with the OA defence feats, giving them significant bonuses to defences which can often mean it is more attractive for them to take an OA than it is to stand and take a normal attack. I have a Halfling Artful Dodger Rogue at level 8 and with a bit of experimentation i realised that it was usually a better idea for me to run away from threatening monsters and take the OA, because all my feats and whatnot give him about +8 AC against OA's.

There are also feats and skills that allow you to make OA's when you normally couldn't such as Polearm Gamble, and sometimes you can 'force' enemies to make OA's by providing them with a veeery attractive target.


And yes, Close attacks do not provoke OA's. Look at page 270 in the PHB, it lists the 4 attack types: Melee Attack, Close Attack, Area Attack and Ranged Attack. Only Area and Ranged attacks provoke, a Close attack does not.

Finally, 4E does require decent tactical thinking and positioning on the battle grid, good tactics can make it impossible for monsters to reach the artillery in the back without copping at least one OA from somone, this can be enhanced even further if the Defenders do horrible things like ready actions to charge enemies who move too close, and so on.
That situation still forces a foe to shift where he could otherwise spend his movement getting into a better position. He doesn't really have the chance to even try to escape his oppressor or move to get a good shot unless he sacrifices his attack. As well, a fighter simply has to get adjacent to an enemy to keep him from moving. Even if the foe chooses to provoke, he might not escape, due to Combat Superiority.

Either way, OAs are very influential... though still not the most important aspect of combat. All those extra feats are only useful for someone who really wants to prove a hindrance to foes.

Yes, it forces him to shift, but that doesn't mean he can't get into a position that allows him to get a good shot. In my experience, he can and often does. And a fighter doesn't just have to get adjacent to an opponent to keep him from moving, he has to mark the target with an attack and hope the target does something to provoke an attack, then actually hit (which is usually easier than hitting with a normal swing for fighters). As for OA's being influential, in my experience they are not so influential that multiple abilities and feats should be dependent on them. Of course, ymmv.
You're correct, quest xp is given to each PC not divided.

Depends on the quest. For example, the "Dragon Hide" quest on DMG pg 210 awards 500 XP to first level characters. That's not 500 XP each; that's 100 XP each in a 5 character party. Both the table and text on PH pg 122 make it clear that the award for a major quest is supposed to vary such that each PC gets the appropriate XP.

In contrast, minor quest XP is just like encounter XP, and is divided as normal.

Thus, a 10th level major quest is worth 500 XP per party member (total 2k XP if a party of 4, 2.5k XP if a party of 5, and 3k XP if a party of 6), while a 10th level minor quest is worth 500 XP divided among the party.

My players were very disappointed with this one :

#38: You get a saving throw to avoid forced movement into hindering terrain.

Yep. Though "hindering terrain" is a fairly specific category, including things like pits, deep water, lava and fire. You don't get a save for difficult terrain or other places that you'd simply rather not be. Depending on the DM, you might get a save vs being pushed through wall spells and other damaging conjurations; the rules aren't explicit about this either way.
One good example of how to force an enemy to take OA's, get your party Rogue to flank with the Fighter. The enemy now has a choice, risk the two OA's and try to escape, shift one to risk one OA and get out of flank, or take 2d6 (or 2d8) extra damage from the Rogue.

In most cases, the opponent can shift one diagonally and avoid both OA's, get out of flank and avoid the SA damage from the Rogue.

OA's are quite rare, especially if you have very paranoid players. Most of my players have worked out that 4E chars are fairly durable and thus taking the occasional OA can be worth it to get to the Artillery monsters faster, this is especially true for Halflings, Artful Dodger Rogues and characters with the OA defence feats, giving them significant bonuses to defences which can often mean it is more attractive for them to take an OA than it is to stand and take a normal attack. I have a Halfling Artful Dodger Rogue at level 8 and with a bit of experimentation i realised that it was usually a better idea for me to run away from threatening monsters and take the OA, because all my feats and whatnot give him about +8 AC against OA's.

This is something I just have a big problem with. Feats should not be dependent on something that may or may not ever happen (OA's being an instance of something rarely, if ever, happening in my experience).

There are also feats and skills that allow you to make OA's when you normally couldn't such as Polearm Gamble, and sometimes you can 'force' enemies to make OA's by providing them with a veeery attractive target.

Are there other feats and skill besides Polearm Gamble that allow you to make OA's when you normally couldn't? What are they and what book are they in?

If you 'force' an enemy to make an OA and your DM goes for it when it is obvious that you are trying to draw out an OA so you can do something really heinous then he's not playing his monster's the way they should be played imo.

And yes, Close attacks do not provoke OA's. Look at page 270 in the PHB, it lists the 4 attack types: Melee Attack, Close Attack, Area Attack and Ranged Attack. Only Area and Ranged attacks provoke, a Close attack does not.

Again, I'll take a look at my PHB again tonight. It's not that I don't believe you guys, it's just that I swear I saw something that indicated they did. I just want to see what I was looking at that gave me that impression.

Finally, 4E does require decent tactical thinking and positioning on the battle grid, good tactics can make it impossible for monsters to reach the artillery in the back without copping at least one OA from somone, this can be enhanced even further if the Defenders do horrible things like ready actions to charge enemies who move too close, and so on.

First, every RPG I've ever played has required tactical thinking and positioning on the battle grid (the groups I've been in have always used miniatures), this is nothing new. Second, in my experieince (25+ years of role-playng and playing tactical games) it is rarely 'impossible' to get to the artillery in the back without opening yourself up to a counter attack. Third, if you have all your Defenders hanging out in the back readying actions then the bad guys should be taking advantage of that to take out your Strikers and/or peppering a single character with Artillery fire until he drops then moving on to the next. If the DM is playing the enemy like a thinking being (provided they are in fact a thinking being and not a creature with limited intelligence) then they are going to do every thing they can to kill you without getting killed themselves. Playing them any other way is nothing more than handing out xp for nothing.
1-minor to sheathe a weapon
2-minor do pick a potion
3-minor to drink a potion

That is basically the way to do it, however, as I see it you can do it without losing your standard action:

1-Standard Action: Do whatever fits into a standard action here
2-Free Action: Drop your weapon
3-Minor Action: Draw a potion
4-Minor Action (Giving up your move): Drink the potion

Next Turn:
Minor Action: Pick up your weapon
etc...

Anyway, as nobody else can pick up your weapon while you are standing in the same square, you are relatively safe, UNLESS you are forced to move (bull rush, anybody?). In which case an enemy could pick up your weapon as a minor action and pound you to death with it (adding insult to pain).
I just ran across another one. Seeing as there we two posts at the same time for #25, I just discovered:

#27: Int 13 is a pre-requisite for Linguist. If you don't have Int 13, there is no way (that I can see) to learn additional languages.

Sly

You can learn one for 24 hours with the Comprehend Language ritual. It has come in quite handy for my not to bright cleric.
I didn't realize the Close powers not provoking at first either, until I saw that Healing Word was a close burst power. And I thought to myself "Why would a ranged heal that only targets one person be made into a burst? Why not just phrase it as a Ranged power?" And then I realized - they wanted Clerics to be able to heal without provoking. Major cool.

I also didn't realize the quest XP thing! Neat!

On the subject of OAs; they are largely environmentally based, in my experience. In an open field, yeah, it's hard to get them. In a dungeon with tight corridors and single-space doorways? The bottleneck is easier to find there. A fighter that can get next to an Archer has a nice advantage - the archer can fire (provokes OA) or shift (Gets hit by combat mastery). Regular movement will likely be stopped by combat mastery, so an archer next to a fighter is probably going down fast. And even outside, melee types can find a bottleneck between trees, or even just difficult terrain, making the enemies choose between an OA and slower movement. You're not "forcing" the monsters into OAs, but you are putting them in a lose/lose situation.

The same is true with the "trick" OAs. Say you're fighting some big brute. It's the halfling artful dodger's turn, and she runs up next to the brute, provoking all the way. Now, the nice squishy rogue has a high AC against the attack, but if you hit - pow, maybe half or more of her HP gone. Clearly though, she's bait - the PCs want the brute to attack the halfling so the fighter can get past the brute to the archer it's protecting. So the brute doesn't swing. What does the fighter do? Moves up to the brute and starts pounding, with the free CA from the rogue. The rogue starts sneak attacking like mad, and the brute never even got an OA, because the fighter didn't move past it. So, the brute SHOULD have swung at the rogue, right? Ah! But if it had, the fighter would have rushed past and attacked the now undefended archer, letting the rogue escape, and thanking her for the distraction.

You see the situation? Even if your DM plays the monsters "smart" and sees your trick, it doesn't matter. You have to navigate the enemy into a lose/lose situation, then react accordingly. In this very basic example, the fighter has a plan - if attacking the brute is favorable, do so; if attacking the archer is favorable, do so.

OAs are a part of the tactical consideration for the game, even if they are never invoked. An enemy adjacent to your fighter can't get to the wizard without provoking, so the DM never has the monster try. The treat of OAs kept the wizard safe, and the fighter was doing his job, even though he never got an OA. If your DM never wants to provoke OAs, then the rules change from "Moving past the fighter provokes an OA" to "You can't move past the fighter." Which is just fine, from the fighter's standpoint - he becomes a living wall, close burst 1.

- Johnny
The same is true with the "trick" OAs. Say you're fighting some big brute. It's the halfling artful dodger's turn, and she runs up next to the brute, provoking all the way. Now, the nice squishy rogue has a high AC against the attack, but if you hit - pow, maybe half or more of her HP gone. Clearly though, she's bait - the PCs want the brute to attack the halfling so the fighter can get past the brute to the archer it's protecting. So the brute doesn't swing. What does the fighter do? Moves up to the brute and starts pounding, with the free CA from the rogue. The rogue starts sneak attacking like mad, and the brute never even got an OA, because the fighter didn't move past it. So, the brute SHOULD have swung at the rogue, right? Ah! But if it had, the fighter would have rushed past and attacked the now undefended archer, letting the rogue escape, and thanking her for the distraction.

Umm...you can make an OA on every other creatures turn, you're not limited to one a round. You're thinking of immediate actions, which are so limited...or 3.5 where you needed a feat to take more than 1...

TBP
Are there other feats and skill besides Polearm Gamble that allow you to make OA's when you normally couldn't? What are they and what book are they in?

If you 'force' an enemy to make an OA and your DM goes for it when it is obvious that you are trying to draw out an OA so you can do something really heinous then he's not playing his monster's the way they should be played imo.

Viper's Strike, Warlord At-Will PHB. Allows an ally to make Opportunity attacks on an enemy if they shift (note: Fighter only make Immediate interrupt on a shift, which is not an Opportunity attack... Think about it)

As to 'forcing' and enemy to make an OA. The DM should know what will happen if they go for it. So you can use these Opportunity attacks to your advantage, either you'll get away with something that could have been riskier, or the defender takes advantage of his mark. (My warlord loves to exploit opportunity attacks, and its never a quick decision for the DM whether to to hit me or not)

Always a GM, never a player (not really but sometimes feels like it).

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DungeonScape

Umm...you can make an OA on every other creatures turn, you're not limited to one a round. You're thinking of immediate actions, which are so limited...or 3.5 where you needed a feat to take more than 1...

TBP

Well! Not only does that nullify my entire post, but it also just became the next number in the "Rules I Didn't Realize" thread! Wow... that really, really changes things. I owe some of my players a few retroactive clubs to the head.

Neat.

- Johnny
That is basically the way to do it, however, as I see it you can do it without losing your standard action:

1-Standard Action: Do whatever fits into a standard action here
2-Free Action: Drop your weapon
3-Minor Action: Draw a potion
4-Minor Action (Giving up your move): Drink the potion

Next Turn:
Minor Action: Pick up your weapon
etc...

Anyway, as nobody else can pick up your weapon while you are standing in the same square, you are relatively safe, UNLESS you are forced to move (bull rush, anybody?). In which case an enemy could pick up your weapon as a minor action and pound you to death with it (adding insult to pain).

I wouldn't see this a being a problem in most cases:

1-Standard Action: Do whatever fits into a standard action here
2-Free Action: Hold your weapon with one hand
3-Minor Action: Draw a potion with other hand
4-Minor Action (Giving up your move): Drink the potion
Excellent thread. Here's another 3.xism that had me going for a while:

#39) You don't move into your opponent's square when you grab. Even if you're a stirge. In fact, I don't think you ever share a square with an opponent any more for any reason (which makes things easy if you're using minis with 1" bases...)
Excellent thread. Here's another 3.xism that had me going for a while:

#39) You don't move into your opponent's square when you grab. Even if you're a stirge. In fact, I don't think you ever share a square with an opponent any more for any reason (which makes things easy if you're using minis with 1" bases...)

The Gelatinous Cube is one exception to this. It's engulf ability pulls the target into the Cube's space. Another example is Close Quarters, a Rogue level 10 Utility power that let's you move into the space of a larger (at least large size) creature and remain there.
Again, I'll take a look at my PHB again tonight. It's not that I don't believe you guys, it's just that I swear I saw something that indicated they did. I just want to see what I was looking at that gave me that impression.

It's on, um, p. 271 - they describe the four attack types, and while Area and Ranged specifically call out that they do provoke (in the little shaded box with bullet points), that comment is absent from "Close" powers. This corresponds to the stuff on p. 290 about OA's, where the shaded box says only Ranged and Area attacks provoke.
One good example of how to force an enemy to take OA's, get your party Rogue to flank with the Fighter. The enemy now has a choice, risk the two OA's and try to escape, shift one to risk one OA and get out of flank, or take 2d6 (or 2d8) extra damage from the Rogue.

The attack from the fighter's Combat Challenge is not an opportunity attack; it's a basic melee attack as an immediate action. Among other implications, it means that a fighter gets only one extra attack from CC per round, and that his extra attack from CC doesn't stop the opponent's movement.
The Gelatinous Cube is one exception to this.

Shambling Mound is another.
The Gelatinous Cube is one exception to this.

Shambling Mound is another.

The point, of course, being that they're the exceptions to the normal base rule, as is the general case with 4th Edition's exceptions-based design.
Yeah, the terminology there is very unfortunate. Ranged attacks are attacks made at range, unless they are bursts in which case they are area attacks, and attacks covering areas are area attacks only if they have range; if they don't they are close attacks and not area attacks and even though some close attacks are used to target a single target at range it is not a ranged attack.

I don't see what is so complicated about this. Each power is one of four types, and the type is shown in the power's description. Ranged attacks are not "attacks made at range" and area attacks are not "attacks covering areas". Its much simpler than that... Ranged attacks are any attack which says Ranged, no matter what it actually does. They could make a melee strike which has the Ranged type because of some other effect it does.

They are just categories, and much simpler than you seem to think.
"Elf running 33 squares in 1 round (50m in 6 sec) slower than olympic runner(100m in 10 sec)" -- sure, but the elf can do it while in hide armor and carrying swords in both hands! :-)
#40 - The Warlock's shadowstep concealment allows him to make a Stealth check.

#41 - If the warlock wants to use shadowstep concealment to make a Stelath check, it is automatically at -5 for having had to move 3 squares.

#42 - Monsters can't take Second Wind unless the description says they can.
#41 - If the warlock wants to use shadowstep concealment to make a Stelath check, it is automatically at -5 for having had to move 3 squares.

Unless the warlock made two move actions. You only take the -5 if the move action moves more than 2 squares. Also, shadow walk triggers if you move 3 or more squares on your turn.

Thus, a warlock can spend two move actions per round, at 2 squares each, and retain concealment (3 or more squares moved) with no penalty (no single move was more than 2 squares).

TBP
#40 - The Warlock's shadowstep concealment allows him to make a Stealth check.

Post-errata, it won't. It grants concealment, and to become hidden you need to have total concealment, superior cover, or be unseen.

(Strictly speaking, you can make the Stealth check on any move action you like; it just won't do you any good unless you are eligible to hide).

The shadowstep ability will allow a warlock to maintain being hidden, but unless he/she spends two move actions to do it will force the reroll at -5.
I don't see what is so complicated about this.

It's not the categories that are complicated. It's the terminology that causes confusion.
1 round = 6 seconds (right? 10 r = 1 minute?)

I've looked and not found any rules text that says that a round is six seconds. I think this is another rule that people are (incorrectly) carrying over from 3rd ed. Everything I've seen says that an encounter is assumed to take about five minutes, with no specific information on how long a round is.

So we don't have any specific idea how fast an elf can run.

(But if someone has a page citation for 1 round = 6 seconds, I'd be happy to have the question answered.)
I've looked and not found any rules text that says that a round is six seconds. I think this is another rule that people are (incorrectly) carrying over from 3rd ed. Everything I've seen says that an encounter is assumed to take about five minutes, with no specific information on how long a round is.

Agreed. A round is 'however long it takes for everybody to do their stuff'. This also works well with using saves as a duration mechanic; it's just as open-ended.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Ok, since I started this thread, I'm going to go ahead and collect all of the rules and post them in the first post. Give me a little bit 'cause I also want to add book/page references to them. I'll also dig out those posts that didn't number their rule (Oh, my gosh, how dare you!!).

Tony...
Page 266 of the PHB says a round represents about 6 seconds.
#32

Did you know that an elf PC with Fast runner feat and using his Action point can Run 33 squares in one round.

With Expeditious Stride (Ranger Utility 10, PHB pg108), an Elven Ranger can run 45 squares a round for two rounds.

With Longstrider (Ranger Daily 16, PHB pg 110) in effect beforehand, increase that to 51/round.

Add in Hunter's Grace (Beast Stalker Utility 12, PHB pg 114), and you can shift your speed in squares as a free action... as this would be before any other actions, that'd be an extra 7 squares if you win the initiative check for a total of 58 for the first round.

Someone check my math on that and/or let me know if I'm misinterpreting anything.
I've looked and not found any rules text that says that a round is six seconds. I think this is another rule that people are (incorrectly) carrying over from 3rd ed. Everything I've seen says that an encounter is assumed to take about five minutes, with no specific information on how long a round is.

So we don't have any specific idea how fast an elf can run.

(But if someone has a page citation for 1 round = 6 seconds, I'd be happy to have the question answered.)

Page 26 of the PHB: Each round represents about 6 seconds in the game world.
Page 266 of the PHB says a round represents about 6 seconds.

OK, so it's in 2 places in the PHB.
With Expeditious Stride (Ranger Utility 10, PHB pg108), an Elven Ranger can run 45 squares a round for two rounds.

With Longstrider (Ranger Daily 16, PHB pg 110) in effect beforehand, increase that to 51/round.

Add in Hunter's Grace (Beast Stalker Utility 12, PHB pg 114), and you can shift your speed in squares as a free action... as this would be before any other actions, that'd be an extra 7 squares if you win the initiative check for a total of 58 for the first round.

Someone check my math on that and/or let me know if I'm misinterpreting anything.

You missed the fact that IIRC you can only use one action point per encounter. That puts you at 58 for the first round and 34 for the second.
You missed the fact that IIRC you can only use one action point per encounter. That puts you at 58 for the first round and 34 for the second.

58 + 34 = 92

92 squares = 460 feet

460 feet = 140.2 meters

140.2 meters in 12 seconds is approximately 116.8 meters in 10 seconds.

10/116.8 = 8.56/100

If my math is correct, the elf runs 100 meters in 8.56 seconds.
Fast little buggers aren't they?


Also, here's a fun trick to pull, get your fighter to mark enemy X, now get a character who's resilient to OA's to provoke an OA from enemy X, the fighter's CC will proc off the OA from enemy X, and the fighter gets to attack him.
58 + 34 = 92

92 squares = 460 feet

460 feet = 140.2 meters

140.2 meters in 12 seconds is approximately 116.8 meters in 10 seconds.

10/116.8 = 8.56/100

If my math is correct, the elf runs 100 meters in 8.56 seconds.

Bah, I can make a dwarf break the sound barrier with enough warlords (Knight's Move), make them Pack Master's (spend Action Point for Ally to take action) and I'll only need half as many.

Always a GM, never a player (not really but sometimes feels like it).

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DungeonScape

Actually, if we use Fleet Footed (paragon tier feat PHB pg 203) and Pathfinder’s Action instead of hunter's grace an elf ranger can run faster:
for example: Start combat using your minor (expeditious stride), run using move, make standard into move and run again, use action point(getting a new standard, gaining also a move action), use both running. Start next turn using minor (long strider), use move (run), turn standard into move and run again:
Math: 7 base speed + 1 from fleet footed = 8 base
[8(base)+4(expeditious)+2(run)+2(fast runner)]*4= 64 (first turn)
14[8 base +4 expeditious (works till end of turn) +2 (long strider)] +2 (run) +2 (fast runner) *2 = 36
64 + 36 = 100 which equals 152.4 meters
One turn equals 6 seconds which means we use 12 seconds
152.4 m/ 12seconds = 100m in 7.87 seconds (if my math is correct) which means an elf ranger with that build will be faster than the current Olympic champion
Here's something I missed until today,, ANd I should know better having played 2nd e.

You don't add your dexterity bonus to ac if you wear anything other than light armour.

and I was very happy with my minotaur's ac, I even made the ac high so I could take advantage! all for naught!
Here's something I missed until today,, ANd I should know better having played 2nd e.

You don't add your dexterity bonus to ac if you wear anything other than light armour.

and I was very happy with my minotaur's ac, I even made the ac high so I could take advantage! all for naught!

Our DM was surprised (and denied it until we showed him) that you add the higher of your dex OR int to your AC in light armor.
Ok, since I started this thread, I'm going to go ahead and collect all of the rules and post them in the first post. Tony...

Go Tony!

Also, to the moderators: Please sticky this thread.

I think the thread will be useful initially as an overview of learning from others mistakes -- sure some things you might think "how could you have missed that", but if at least one person did, then probably others did as well.

I do think the life of this post is limited, as a lot of the things will be differences or carry overs from 3.x. Maybe one day in the future it will live past it's lifetime and be unstickied, but in the meanwhile -- please sticky it.

Tony -- I would also recommend putting some instructions in the first post so people post things they missed but are clearly and try to avoid things that are ambiguous or exploit rules, or if they are posted at least with a disclaimer that there are varying interpretations.

If people want to argue/discuss such points, go off and create another thread (or join an existing one), but please try and keep this thread on topic:

Rules you didn't realize
yep, strange huh? I wasn't sure I liked that, cause the high dex is what made the Eladrin a favorable class for a wizard. but now all you need is the high intelligence. oh well I guess nerds are hard to hit, but I never had trouble hitting them when I was in Highschool

(Kidding of course, was never a bully)
yep, strange huh? I wasn't sure I liked that, cause the high dex is what made the Eladrin a favorable class for a wizard. but now all you need is the high intelligence. oh well I guess nerds are hard to hit, but I never had trouble hitting them when I was in Highschool

(Kidding of course, was never a bully)

I assume it represents your mind operating on a higher intellectual level than the person swinging/shooting at you, so that you not an objects speed and trajectory and move your body just enough to evade it.

In fact I could see a magic item or feat that allows wis to apply to AC instead, for a Jedi type "let the force guide your movements" defense. Or maybe Charisma for 'blind dumb luck' where you happen to bend over to get a penny just as someone fires the arrow.
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