Hydra and marks

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How does an ability like Hydra Fury that lets the creature make multiple attacks with one action interact with a paladin's or fighter's marks? If a hydra attacks a defender with some heads, and another PC with the rest of the heads, does it have a -2 to hit those and take damage?
How does an ability like Hydra Fury that lets the creature make multiple attacks with one action interact with a paladin's or fighter's marks? If a hydra attacks a defender with some heads, and another PC with the rest of the heads, does it have a -2 to hit those and take damage?

The hydra would take a -2 on any attack roll not made against the defender (marked condition, p.277). However, the secondary effect that fighters and paladins get (and swordmages for that matter) is only triggered if it "makes an attack that doesn't include you as the target" (pages 76, 91 and FRPG preview p.7). So as long as the defender is one of the targets of the effect, the hydra will not trigger the secondary effect.
Actually, a Hydra's "Hydra Fury" attack is a single power, which can target multiple creatures. As long as the fighter/paladin who marked it is ONE of those targets, it takes no penalties on any of the attacks.
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Actually, a Hydra's "Hydra Fury" attack is a single power, which can target multiple creatures. As long as the fighter/paladin who marked it is ONE of those targets, it takes no penalties on any of the attacks.

*rereadng the text for the marked condition*

Actually, I'd have to agree with that. Good catch.
Actually, a Hydra's "Hydra Fury" attack is a single power, which can target multiple creatures. As long as the fighter/paladin who marked it is ONE of those targets, it takes no penalties on any of the attacks.

You are incorrect. Hydra fury is listed as a melee attack. Melee attacks follow different rules from close and area attacks.

quoted from the phb page 270

"MELEE ATTACK
Targeted: Melee attacks target individuals. A melee
attack against multiple enemies consists of separate
attacks
, each with its own attack roll and damage roll.
Melee attacks don’t create areas of effect (page 272). "



Since hydra fury is a melee attack, each attack it does counts as a separate attack, which means if it attacks a different target that isn't the fighter or paladin who marked it, it receives the damage/attack and the penalty to attack rolls.

If "Hydra fury" were a close or area attack and included both the paladin and another target, then there would be no penalty to attack rolls, damage inflicted (if marked by a paladin) or immediate interrupt melee basic attack(if marked by a fighter).

Edit:A similar issue was discussed in an earlier thread. If you want to see more, go to http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1076621
Saric is correct on this.
Actually, that's not the reason he's correct.

Hydra fury is not an attack power at all. It's a power that grants actions, and the actions it grants are attacks. Thus, marking actually applies individually to each of those attacks.

However, a melee attack with multiple targets does not trigger a mark as long as the source of the mark is one of those targets.
The above absolute statements notwithstanding, the actual RAW on this issue is unclear.

My current ruling (which is based on the spirit behind the mark, not the RAW since the RAW is vague on the issue) is that it depends on whether or not the marked creature has the option of including the fighter as a target.

Thus a power which specifies multiple distinct melee targets will not trigger a mark as long as one of the targets is the fighter, while a power that specifies multiple attacks and allows them all to be be directed at the fighter will trigger the mark if they do not all target the fighter.

Essentially, the mark will trigger if the opponent chooses not to target the fighter with an attack. But if the attack specifically hits multiple targets as long as the fighter is one of those targets, it will not trigger.

In the case of a Hydra because there is no reason all four heads cannot attack the Fighter, if they do not do so the mark will trigger.

Carl
Actually, that's not the reason he's correct.

Hydra fury is not an attack power at all. It's a power that grants actions, and the actions it grants are attacks. Thus, marking actually applies individually to each of those attacks.

However, a melee attack with multiple targets does not trigger a mark as long as the source of the mark is one of those targets.

Actually, Hydra Fury is an attack that grants other attacks. It has the attack icon next to it (specifically, the little sword for melee attacks). Powers that are not attacks do not have a icon.

Given the rule he quoted from p.270, Saric would be correct.
Actually, that's not the reason he's correct.

Hydra fury is not an attack power at all. It's a power that grants actions, and the actions it grants are attacks. Thus, marking actually applies individually to each of those attacks.

However, a melee attack with multiple targets does not trigger a mark as long as the source of the mark is one of those targets.

Nope. read the passage again.


quoted from the phb page 270

"MELEE ATTACK
Targeted: Melee attacks target individuals. A melee
attack against multiple enemies
consists of separate
attacks
, each with its own attack roll and damage roll.
Melee attacks don’t create areas of effect (page 272). "


The rules are 100% clear on this. See page 7 of the mm under attack powers. Each monster entry has little symbols to represent what type of attack it is. Whether it be, melee, ranged, close or area. If it doesn't have a symbol, it probably isn't an attack power. Now, because hydra fury has the melee attack symbol (mm page 164) it must follow the rules of a "melee attack" which can target multiple enemies, because "Melee attacks against multiple enemies consists of separate attacks each with its own attack roll and damage roll."


Here's some examples for clarification.

Case #1: The Fighter marks a hydra. The hydra uses hydra fury, the hydra must choose who to target each individually with each attack. If the hydra does not choose the fighter with any of its attacks, the fighter can make his immediate interrupt when it does so. In addition, the hydra should receive the penalty to the attack roll due to being marked.

Case #2:
The Fighter marks a hydra again. Lets say for purposes of this example that hydra fury has magically been converted into a "close" attack power that targets all enemies within reach instead of a "melee" attack power. If the hydra uses this hydra fury and does not include the fighter with the attack power, then the fighter gets to use combat challenge's immediate interrupt. However, should the hydra include the fighter as a target in this "close" attack, the hydra does not get any penalties to its attack rolls, nor can the fighter use his immediate interrupt.

I hope this clarifies things.
Another thread that was similar to this one only it had to do with Ranger's Twin Strike and Mark. Here is a link to it.