Being Prone?

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So it seems to me that being Prone isn't really all that bad in 4E. Other than granting combat advantage to adjacent melee attackers, the ground isn't a terrible place to be.

As near as I can tell, there are no penalties to movement, you can flank from prone, and even make opportunity attacks from the ground.

================================================ "Your life is an occasion. Rise to it." -Mr. Magorium ================================================

Granting combat advantage to all adjacent enemies is a substantial penalty.

Getting a -2 on all your attack rolls is a substantial penalty.

As for the movement issues, most people (including me) believe that the rules intend for normal movement to be prohibited while prone, in favor of crawling at half speed per page 288.

- Alane -
I agree. If you are prone and want to use full movement you first have to ... Stand Up.

boy that sounds obvious when I say it out loud like that
So it seems to me that being Prone isn't really all that bad in 4E. Other than granting combat advantage to adjacent melee attackers, the ground isn't a terrible place to be.

As near as I can tell, there are no penalties to movement, you can flank from prone, and even make opportunity attacks from the ground.

Interestingly, you could do all those things from the ground in 3.5 and you didn't leave yourself open to sneak attacks. So, being prone is actually a little worse now. Of course, it's easier to get up now, too.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

As far as I can see, getting up from prone doesn't provoke an AoO either?

BTW you could always make opportunity attacks and flank from prone (in 3.5), since you still threatened the area. You did take a -4 to hit on them, though.

(Take that dwarves! Your racial power to save vs. falling over is largely pointless!)

Sandulax

As far as I can see, getting up from prone doesn't provoke an AoO either?

True. Unless a player is setting up another player to take advantage of a prone enemy, the basic function of knocking something prone is so you can either get away from it, keep it from getting away, or keep it from getting closer. If it's intent on staying in melee with you, and you with it, and there's no one else around, knocking something prone doesn't seem hugely useful - for players anyway.

(Take that dwarves! Your racial power to save vs. falling over is largely pointless!)

I know you're just making a joke, but if a monster or its allies get some additional advantage over prone characters (such as extra damage, or a minor power that functions only against prone characters), this ability will really shine.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

I agree. If you are prone and want to use full movement you first have to ... Stand Up.

boy that sounds obvious when I say it out loud like that

No, you can move while prone. (No really, you can't. But the rules don't say that.)

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1050340
No, you can move while prone. (No really, you can't. But the rules don't say that.)

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1050340

As of today, the errata says you can't (though interestingly you can be pushed/pulled/slid when prone).

Also, versus certain enemies being prone is a -really- bad thing. Starting your turn surrounded by four needletooth drake swarms: bad. Starting your turn prone while surrounded by four needletooth drake swarms: deadly.

Edit: Errata is here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates
Alright, well the new errata covers moving while prone pretty nicely (crawl only). Now I wonder about shifting while crawling. Crawling, by definition in the PHB, indicates you can only move up to half your speed. It does not, however, state that each square of movement costs more movement than it would if you were standing, merely that the number of squares of movement you have available to you is half normal.

Shifting is a 1 square move. You can't shift into a square that requires more than 1 square of movement to move into unless you are using an ability that allows more than 1 square of shifting (e.g., tumble) or can ignore the effects of difficult terrain while shifting (e.g., elves).

So the RAW would seem to indicate that you can shift while prone, but I'm curious as to others' interpretations.

================================================ "Your life is an occasion. Rise to it." -Mr. Magorium ================================================

You cannot move out of your space unless you crawl, teleport, or get pushed/pulled/slid. Shifting is not any of those, so you would not be able to use it while prone.
You cannot move out of your space unless you crawl, teleport, or get pushed/pulled/slid. Shifting is not any of those, so you would not be able to use it while prone.

I understand that have to crawl to move from your space when you're prone, but I'm asking how people are ruling on being able to shift while crawling. I don't see anything in the rules that explicitly prohibits it. In terms of the "spirit" of crawling, I can see an argument for it either way.

================================================ "Your life is an occasion. Rise to it." -Mr. Magorium ================================================

No, they are 2 different actions. Crawl is a move action that you must be prone to perform, gives you 1/2 your normal speed, and is the only normal form of movement you can make when prone.

Shift is a move action that lets you move 1 square, prevents opportunity attacks, and is hard to use in difficult terrain.

Note that both of them require a move action. Nothing states "shift you can perform any type of movement, but only move 1 square."

There is no Crawling shift, or Shifting crawl.
Ah, that's making more sense to me now. The Move Actions listed on the table on page 289 are all separate, discrete move actions. You take one or the other or the other, etc., but you don't combine them.

================================================ "Your life is an occasion. Rise to it." -Mr. Magorium ================================================

Is there anywhere that states that being prone and immobilized means you are helpless? I had a couple players that claimed that, but I didn't see it anywhere in the rules. If that WAS the case, prone would be a really powerful thing.
Is there anywhere that states that being prone and immobilized means you are helpless? I had a couple players that claimed that, but I didn't see it anywhere in the rules. If that WAS the case, prone would be a really powerful thing.

No being prone and immobilised isn't helpless, you can still make an attack (with the prone penalty)

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my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

No, combining 2 different conditions does not make a 3rd condition happen (unless it is specifically stated, which I don't remember any of them doing). Being both prone and immobilized is almost the same thing as being just prone, with the only addition of you can't crawl.
Hopefully this won't derail the thread too much... but standing up from prone. Does that provoke opportunity attacks? By RAW it doesn't appear that it does, but I'm not sure if I missed it someplace.
No, standing up does not provoke OAs. Normally, only moving out of a square adjacent to an enemy or using a ranged or area attack when adjacent to an enemy provokes OAs (also, some powers/feats grant the ability to make OAs under different circumstances, but that is an exception to the general!).
I know the eratta makes the Shifting While Prone thing much clearer (you can't), but I still allow it. First, in one of the PvP/Penny Arcade podcasts, a monster does shift while prone, and I based a ruling in the game on that fact.

Second, I can easily picture someone rolling around to avoid attacks (you see it in movies enough when someone is on the ground and their enemy is trying to crush them with a broadaxe or something).

Third, standing up doesn't provoke OAs anyway and is a Move Action. While prone, you could spend your Move Action to stand and then use another Move Action to Shift and call your turn done. So, the way I see it, the net effect of allowing someone to Shift while prone doesn't change the overall outcome. If they want to spend a Move action to Shift instead of standing up for some reason in a particular situation, I am fine with that. They are still on the ground and will still eventually need to stand up.

The Angry DM: D&D 4th Edition Advice with Attitude http://angrydm.com Follow me on Twitter @TheAngryDM "D&D is a world where you are a great champion, and the creator of the universe is frequently disorganized, highly distractable, and alarmingly vague on the rules of the universe he’s trying to run." -Shamus Young, Twenty Sided Tale (DM of the Rings)

Where does it say that standing up would not provoke an opportunity attack? I would rule it does in that you are taking a MOVE action within a square that is adjacent to a bad guy.

If anyone finds otherwise, please point me in the right direction.
Where does it say that standing up would not provoke an opportunity attack? I would rule it does in that you are taking a MOVE action within a square that is adjacent to a bad guy.

If anyone finds otherwise, please point me in the right direction.

Taking a move action within a square does not provoke OA. It's moving out of a threatened square.
The Bruce Campbell of D&D.
Let's say that a kobold is standing next to a dwarf. In round 1 the kobold attacks the dwarf and does damage. In the same round the dwarf hits the kobold and causes it to fall prone.

What happens on the kobolds next turn? Does it require a standard action to stand up? Can the kobold stand up and then attack in the same turn?

If the kobold can stand up and then attack it seems like it was kind of pointless for the dwarf to have knocked him prone. I guess that if the dwarf had adjacent buddies who were able to attack before the kobold's next turn that would be good, but if his buddies had all moved and the dwarf was the last to move this round AND the kobold was 1st to move next round then it didn't accomplish much.

What's the rule and where is it?
PHB 292, Stand Up.

The point of knocking prone is giving a slight disadvantage. By being prone, you are severely limited in your mobility. Half-speed, no shifting? That's a pretty good advantage against kobolds. Then they have to waste a move action to stand up. Against anything but a kobold, that requires them to make the decision Attack or Move after they stand up.
Standing up is a move action (page 292). Since it uses up the move action, the kobold cannot both attack and move away (bad example, because kobolds can actually shift as a minor, but for non-shifty types, it works). So lets say an orc that prefers to use a bow gets knocked prone, he will have to use his less appealing melee attack.

And if the group works together, yes knocking the creature prone can grant several allies CA until the creature can stand up.
But for a melee monster who's not planning on moving away until its foe is slain it doesn't accomplish anything useful to knock it down in a one on one fight, since it can use its move action to stand up and then just attack again, right?

I'm not saying it's not useful, it obviously is, but maybe not so much in a 1-on-1 duel...
I guess I don't get your point TD. Healing someone who can't receive all the healing isn't the best possible use. Immobilizing someone who is attacking you at range isn't as efficient as possible. There's always times that an action isn't 100 percent as efficient as humanly possible.

In your above example if the monster is mindless and always going to try to end up adjacent to its enemy, then the person knocking it prone can just shift back a square afterwards. Then if the mindless enemy has to stand up ( move), and shift/move 1 ( move), it leaves a minor to attack which usually isn't to helpful. Then it can be knocked prone again.
So... to summarize?

You get knocked prone, adjacent enemies get CA against you.
Once prone, you can
  • crawl away (using your move action, and provoking an OA from adjacent enemies)
  • stand up (no OAs, no more CA, but it uses up a move action)
  • attack (at a penalty)
  • do something else...


It seems that, in the spirit of 4E, things should be more 'cinematic'. I generally rule that characters can use their Acrobatic skill to perform a Acrobatic Stunt (as a move action; PHB p.180) to move/shift and remain prone. Moreover, I may even allow for a character to use this same skill to jump to their feat as a free action. This, of course, all with a level appropriate DC for it to be 'hard' (like a DC20 for L1 characters; DMG p.42).

I find that players LOVE IT when they can do cool stuff in combat. It makes the battles more memorable, and everyone has _fun_. Imagine the coolness when Ripsaw the Sabermaster gets knocked prone by some silly wolf, then jumps to his feet like Jet Li and slices the dog into bits.

I was a huge fan of 3E and 3.5E -- but i think the rules of the game started overshadowing the fun -- rules lawyers and munchkins and power gamers would all gather in secrete cabals and figure out how the rules would make them SUPER heroes -- as a DM/GM, it made running the game sometimes a pain because I was constantly working to out think my players on the rules front instead of the game front. The main point of 4E is that things are not supposed to be 'super realistic' - they are supposed to be cinematic and fun. I'm not saying it is unimportant to understand the rules; of course it is... i'm just saying the 4E is a breath of fresh air IMHO.

Ok.. i'm shifting out of here before someone OA's my behind...
Thanks guys. You helped me figure out what I was looking for even if I seemed a bit boneheaded.
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