Consolidated Customer Service Answers

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You cannot change a word, no matter how similiar, and have a convincing argument. Because you changed a word. The fact that after you changed the word you have a different meaning should highlight that it is a no-no.

Also, TnS doesn't require an off-hand weapon, even implicitly. In fact, it doesn't even require two weapons. Did you not consider a thrown weapon that is also a melee weapon? That satisfies the requirements of the weapon.
I sent in a question about what is a damage roll to CS.  I got a response back but I sent in another request to get clarification about why I got the answer I recieved.

Email I sent:
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An issue has come up about what is considered a damage roll. It is agreed that a damage roll includes the damage from a weapon or an attack power, i.e. 2[W] or 3d6.

However, there is a sentence that brings certain situations and features into question. On page 222 of the Rules Compendium it states: "Whenever a power or other effect requires a damage roll, it specifies which dice to roll and how many of them."

Does the "other effect" portion of the sentence include game features such as sneak attack, hunter's quarry and warlock's curse? Does it mean that those features add a damage roll to powers that otherwise would not have one?

For example, Duelist's Flurry(I could have the name wrong) does not have a damage roll, it does a flat amount of damage equal to your Dexterity modifier however, you have the option of adding your sneak attack damage to it even if you do not meet the qualifications of using it otherwise. In this case, does Duelist's Flurry now have a damage roll and there for get any modifiers to damage rolls that would apply such as those that apply with the weapon keyword?

Another situation: Monk Flurry of Blows is an attack power by definition of the Rules Compendium, pg 90. You multiclass into swordmage and take the Malec-Keth Janissary Paragon Path. The level16 feature is to add 1d4 damage(of a certain type) to all your attacks. Would you add this to the Monk Flurry of Blows and would this be considered adding a damage roll to Flurry of Blows? If a Tiefling did the situation mentioned, and had Hellfire Blood(+1 attack and damage rolls with fire) and added 1d4 fire damage to Flurry of Blows, would they get 1d4(level 16 feature)+1(Hellfire Blood) instead of just 1d4 fire damage?

Another situation: A level 11 Tiefling Wizard has Magic Missile, Hellfire Blood, Arcane Admixutre(Adding Fire to Magic Missile), and Inescapable Force. If the Wizard hit an intangible target with magic missile, would it just have the +1d10 from Inescapable Force or would it have +1d10(Inescapable Force)+1(Hellfire Blood).

Basically, does rolling dice to determine the damage a power/feat/feature adds to another power/feat/feature count as a damage roll or adding a damage roll and therefore allowing all powers/feats/features that increase a damage roll to be applied to that power/feat/feature.

Any ruling one way or another would be helpful.


Response from Dan in CS
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Q: Does rolling dice to determine the damage a power/feat/feature adds to another power/feat/feature count as a damage roll or adding a damage roll and therefore allowing all powers/feats/features that increase a damage roll to be applied to that power/feat/feature?

A: The latter. So, as you described in the example you provided, the Tiefling Wizard would have +1d10 +1


And yes, I know some are going to say that Customer Service is not a rules source but you have to start somewhere.  This is just where I started.  I will post when I get another reponse.

Edit:  I just recieved a response regarding clarification

My Email
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Is it warlock's curse damage(just an example) considered a damage roll due to the part in the Rules Compendium that states "other effects require a damage roll, it specifies which dice to roll and how many of them"? Trying to get clarification to remove any possible ambiguity.


Responce form Dan in CS
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Thanks for writing back! Ambiguity is a big part of D&D. It allows for more interesting stories, thrilling interpretations, and daring acts.That said, warlock's curse damage is considered part of the damage roll.
I asked if adding a rolled damage element to a static damage expression turned it into a damage roll, and got both answers.  Yay.

I would say that my question was biased toward it not working.

Question:
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 I'm trying to ask about a base rules question, and am attempting to construct a situation to illustrate the basic question. Please excuse any small errors in the construction. (Specifically, the exact wording of the "Horned Helm" might make the specific example irrelevant. Or might not. Please ignore that initially)

A Shadar-Kai wizard with a 22 Int, the "Reaper's Touch" feat, a +3 implement, and a heroic tier "Horned Helm" charges someone, and uses "Magic Missile" instead of his melee basic attack. How much damage does he do?

6(Int)+3(enh)+1d6 = 1d6+9
The theory here would be that Magic Missile, the power, lacks a damage roll. So even though you are in fact rolling dice to determine damage, that's extra damage and doesn't alter the inherent property of Magic Missile. So you do what Magic Missile says, and then add 1d6 for the Horned Helm.

2. 6(Int)+3(enh)+3(enh)+1d6 = 1d6+12
The theory here would be that, now that you've added 1d6 from the horned helm, the damage expression has changed from being a flat damage expression to a rolled one. And now that you've made it a rolled damage expression, the enhancement bonus from the implement applies. (RC: 283. "A magic implement adds an enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and damage ROLLS of attack powers used with the implement")

Magic Missile does Int_Mod plus enhancement bonus, and is deliberately not a rolled damage roll as a balancing factor for it's accuracy. Adding a damage roll greatly increases the number of game elements that can then apply.

As another example, consider "Brutal Barrage". Normally it only does Con-Mod damage, but if you can add a damage roll (say, via "Malec-Keth Janissary"'s level 16 feature), you then can also add enhancement bonuses and focus bonuses and so on.

The definition of "damage roll" says "a roll of a die or dice to determine damage dealt by a power or some other effect.". So the basic question is 'Does extra damage from a Horned Helm or class feature qualify as an effect, and if so, how does that make the 2nd sentence parse?"  


Answer: (Sure, that works)
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Greetings Douglas,

I will be happy to answer these questions for you!

A Shadar-Kai wizard with a 22 Int, the "Reaper's Touch" feat, a +3 implement, and a heroic tier "Horned Helm" charges someone, and uses "Magic Missile" instead of his melee basic attack. How much damage does he do?

1d6+9 is correct. The damage from the Horned Helm is extra damage and so would apply whenever you deal damage. Not just when you make a damage roll. Even though it is extra damage it is still all from one power so you will only add the enhancement bonus once. Normally you wouldn't be able to add the enhancement bonus, however Magic Missile specifically lets you. If it didn't then you would still get to add the enhancement bonus to the roll since the extra damage is rolled dice.

As another example, consider "Brutal Barrage". Normally it only does Con-Mod damage, but if you can add a damage roll (say, via "Malec-Keth Janissary"'s level 16 feature), you then can also add enhancement bonuses and focus bonuses and so on.

This is correct. If you can add extra rolled damage then you will get to add all game elements that can add to a damage roll. Of course each individual DM is free to modify these rules as they see fit!

Please let me know if you have any other questions!

Raymond  


My reply/followup: ("Really?  That's a really bad idea...")
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 Could you please attempt to address this question? (same question, different rules quote aspect)

The definition of "damage roll" is "a roll of a die or dice to determine damage dealt by a power or some other effect. Modifiers to a damage roll apply to the entire roll, not to each die rolled."

In my example of Reaper's Touch, isn't the "damage roll" the extra damage from the horned helm? If that's a damage roll, then the modifiers (like enhancement) apply to that roll. And then also apply to the total damage expression because Magic Missile says they do. Why don't they stack?

If the extra damage from the Horned Helm ISN'T the damage roll, then why does MM's damage in this case considered a damage roll?

Overall, Please run this by a developer... cause...

Werebear(new dragon theme) with Claw Gloves, frost weapon, new paragon +3/4 elemental focus feat, dragon shard, iron armbands

BB goes from being "Con*4" to "(Con+1d10+enhancement+feat+shard+item)*4". (or from ~40 or so depending on the level to 150 or so, depending on additional support). And it gets trivially easy to build a character that can kill elites with one basically at-will attack sequence. (And easy to build a character that can kill solos with at-will attack sequences).

This ruling does really bad things to game balance. (And while yes, I'm frequently the DM, I also run a lot of LFR, which has a more "Rules-as-Written" bent to it as part of the social contract)  


Answer: (No, that doesn't work)
Show

Hi Douglas,

Thanks for contacting us here at Wizards of the Coast!
The Horned Helm would not grant you a damage roll because it's ability only states the following:

Your charge attacks deal 1d6 extra damage.
Level 16: Deal 2d6 extra damage
Level 26: Deal 3d6 extra damage

This would be damage added on to a preexisting damage roll you would already be rolling. This does not grant you a roll.

In addition, I will send your feedback on the the interactions between some of the new themes and paragon paths on to the appropriate team for review.
I hope this helps, and have a nice day!

Kate  
 

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I asked if adding a rolled damage element to a static damage expression turned it into a damage roll, and got both answers.  Yay.

I would say that my question was biased toward it not working.

Question:
Show

 I'm trying to ask about a base rules question, and am attempting to construct a situation to illustrate the basic question. Please excuse any small errors in the construction. (Specifically, the exact wording of the "Horned Helm" might make the specific example irrelevant. Or might not. Please ignore that initially)

A Shadar-Kai wizard with a 22 Int, the "Reaper's Touch" feat, a +3 implement, and a heroic tier "Horned Helm" charges someone, and uses "Magic Missile" instead of his melee basic attack. How much damage does he do?

6(Int)+3(enh)+1d6 = 1d6+9
The theory here would be that Magic Missile, the power, lacks a damage roll. So even though you are in fact rolling dice to determine damage, that's extra damage and doesn't alter the inherent property of Magic Missile. So you do what Magic Missile says, and then add 1d6 for the Horned Helm.

2. 6(Int)+3(enh)+3(enh)+1d6 = 1d6+12
The theory here would be that, now that you've added 1d6 from the horned helm, the damage expression has changed from being a flat damage expression to a rolled one. And now that you've made it a rolled damage expression, the enhancement bonus from the implement applies. (RC: 283. "A magic implement adds an enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and damage ROLLS of attack powers used with the implement")

Magic Missile does Int_Mod plus enhancement bonus, and is deliberately not a rolled damage roll as a balancing factor for it's accuracy. Adding a damage roll greatly increases the number of game elements that can then apply.

As another example, consider "Brutal Barrage". Normally it only does Con-Mod damage, but if you can add a damage roll (say, via "Malec-Keth Janissary"'s level 16 feature), you then can also add enhancement bonuses and focus bonuses and so on.

The definition of "damage roll" says "a roll of a die or dice to determine damage dealt by a power or some other effect.". So the basic question is 'Does extra damage from a Horned Helm or class feature qualify as an effect, and if so, how does that make the 2nd sentence parse?"  


Answer: (Sure, that works)
Show

Greetings Douglas,

I will be happy to answer these questions for you!

A Shadar-Kai wizard with a 22 Int, the "Reaper's Touch" feat, a +3 implement, and a heroic tier "Horned Helm" charges someone, and uses "Magic Missile" instead of his melee basic attack. How much damage does he do?

1d6+9 is correct. The damage from the Horned Helm is extra damage and so would apply whenever you deal damage. Not just when you make a damage roll. Even though it is extra damage it is still all from one power so you will only add the enhancement bonus once. Normally you wouldn't be able to add the enhancement bonus, however Magic Missile specifically lets you. If it didn't then you would still get to add the enhancement bonus to the roll since the extra damage is rolled dice.

As another example, consider "Brutal Barrage". Normally it only does Con-Mod damage, but if you can add a damage roll (say, via "Malec-Keth Janissary"'s level 16 feature), you then can also add enhancement bonuses and focus bonuses and so on.

This is correct. If you can add extra rolled damage then you will get to add all game elements that can add to a damage roll. Of course each individual DM is free to modify these rules as they see fit!

Please let me know if you have any other questions!

Raymond  


My reply/followup: ("Really?  That's a really bad idea...")
Show

 Could you please attempt to address this question? (same question, different rules quote aspect)

The definition of "damage roll" is "a roll of a die or dice to determine damage dealt by a power or some other effect. Modifiers to a damage roll apply to the entire roll, not to each die rolled."

In my example of Reaper's Touch, isn't the "damage roll" the extra damage from the horned helm? If that's a damage roll, then the modifiers (like enhancement) apply to that roll. And then also apply to the total damage expression because Magic Missile says they do. Why don't they stack?

If the extra damage from the Horned Helm ISN'T the damage roll, then why does MM's damage in this case considered a damage roll?

Overall, Please run this by a developer... cause...

Werebear(new dragon theme) with Claw Gloves, frost weapon, new paragon +3/4 elemental focus feat, dragon shard, iron armbands

BB goes from being "Con*4" to "(Con+1d10+enhancement+feat+shard+item)*4". (or from ~40 or so depending on the level to 150 or so, depending on additional support). And it gets trivially easy to build a character that can kill elites with one basically at-will attack sequence. (And easy to build a character that can kill solos with at-will attack sequences).

This ruling does really bad things to game balance. (And while yes, I'm frequently the DM, I also run a lot of LFR, which has a more "Rules-as-Written" bent to it as part of the social contract)  


Answer: (No, that doesn't work)
Show

Hi Douglas,

Thanks for contacting us here at Wizards of the Coast!
The Horned Helm would not grant you a damage roll because it's ability only states the following:

Your charge attacks deal 1d6 extra damage.
Level 16: Deal 2d6 extra damage
Level 26: Deal 3d6 extra damage

This would be damage added on to a preexisting damage roll you would already be rolling. This does not grant you a roll.

In addition, I will send your feedback on the the interactions between some of the new themes and paragon paths on to the appropriate team for review.
I hope this helps, and have a nice day!

Kate  
 



You would have been better off asking about adding more than just implement enhancement to Magic Missile since Magic Missile allows you to add the Implement enhancement already as part of the power.  A better question would have been whether a Pyromancer Shader-kai with Reaper's Touch and Magic Missile Arcane Admixtured with Fire and set up with a horned helm would get to add his Pyromancer Apprentise bonus to this Magic Missile on a charge.

On the second answer, that's just crazy talk.  The Horned Helm is letting you roll a die to determine damage.
I asked about a tiefling wizard with MM and arcane admixture fire to MM and hellfire blood using inescapable force on an insubstantial target and was told that it would be +1d10(inescapable force)+1(hellfire blood).

I am sure I prolly have the name wrong but it is the paragon feat that causes force attacks to do full damage and add 1d10 vs insubstantial enemies.










 Customer By Web Form (Yan Lacharité)05/07/2012 07:21 PM
Hello Wizards,
What damage do you deal if you hit 3 times with Flurry of Talons ?

1) 6d8 + Dexterity modifier damage + Dexterity modifier damage + Dexterity modifier damage 

2) 3d8 + Dexterity modifier 

The confusion boils down to the wording of the Hit line A B ''and'' C seems inclusive (Shadow Fire D379 pg. 30 also use word ''and'') compared to Shadow Darts (D379 pg. 20) who use the word A, B ''or'' C as a exclusion statement.

Thanks,

Yan













 Response Via Email (Support Agent)05/08/2012 02:36 PM
Hello Yan,

Thank you for contacting us. The word "and" in this case isn't inclusive. If you hit with all three attack rolls you would deal 3d8 + Dexterity modifier damage. If you have any other questions please feel free to contact us.  

We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here

Matthew
Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast


Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Hi,

I have read in this post that Sneak Attack damage is maximized on a critical hit (in the first page of it).

My ask:

Hello,

I have two cuestions:

1.) Our play group has a doubt about how striker's features (sneak attack, hunter quarry's, warlock curse, etc.) works on a critical hit.

Is the sneak attack dice (hq or wc) maximized on a critical hit?

Ex: If our rogue has combat advantage against an orc and he scores a critical hit, is sneak attack's dice maximized?

2. Is a character who is dying bloodied also?

Thank you very much!


Customer service answer:

Hello Isaac,

Thanks for writing in with your questions!

1) Sneak attack dice are not maximized if the hit used to apply them is a critical. Only the initial damage dice are.

2) Any creature below their bloodied value is bloodied, even dying creatures

I hope these answers have helped.

Cheers!

We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Steve
Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Sunday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST



Is the post feedback wrong? Or am I missing something?



THank you!

He's right about 2, wrong about 1. Don't ask CS if you want reliably correct answers.
Yeah, i think it so but my GM is a super stubborn guy and, certainly, it ruined my Daggermaster rogue...

It's a joke that a critical on a dagger does (without feats invested of course) only 3 or 4 damage points over a normal hit.

I send another question (about how a barbarian applies his damage on a critical hit) and i'm waiting the answer but, well, it ruined my PC (although if the costumer question is positive about maximizing sneak attack he (my GM) would not applies it and "houseruling" a stupid application of critical hits)

 
You can show your DM

The PHB FAQ:

Which dice do I maximize when scoring a critical hit? Only the dice you would normally roll to calculate damage are maximized.  If another bonus (like from a weapon or feat) causes you to roll extra damage dice when scoring a critical hit, those dice are rolled as normal.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Yeah I have showed it to him, but yesterday he said me:

"- You normally don't use sneak attack and therefore isn't maximized. (talking about a situation with Combat Advantage of course)."

I read a hundred times that sneak attack or hunter quarry or whatelse is maximized but there isn't option. Equally my ask to the Costumer Services is clear enough and they answer me very clear: SA isn't maximized; this takes Daggermaster from Top choice PP to Low level PP and even some powers are affected (like Bloodbath, that does your SA in ongoing (daily lvl 5)).

I can't view the previoius answers about this to other users and therefore i can't reply to CS in an apropiate way.

All the wording on critical errata is too much ambiguous, and this is more accentuated because we aren't english-users (well, a little but sometimes we still lose the meaning of the sentence).

It isn't ambigious to people who speak English. Tell your DM he is an idiot and should take the word of people who can read the language the rule is stated in. CS is stupid and not reliable would also be a good thing to mention.
I thought about Costumer Service as last word in the game. And yet think it, but it's wrong information ruined games.

They're not.  In this case, they're wrong.

If you could have rolled it had you not critted (which includes things like Sneak Attack), it is maximised.  If you could only have rolled it due to the crit, it is not.  CS are wrong, and not to be trusted, specifically because of cases like this where RAW and RAI are very clear, match perfectly, and they get the answer wrong.

They are no more expert than any of the people on this forum; in fact, they are a lot less so in most cases.

e: Perhaps more to the point, if you look at post #9 of this very thread, you'll see an answer which directly contradicts the one you received, also from CustServ.  This is not remotely surprising.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Yeah I think it also, but i can't success with: All the guys on the forum say that i'm right.
Ask CustServ again (and again, and again) until they give the correct answer, then use that.  If your DM still doesn't think they're irrelevant, get him to do the same thing.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
It ended well There is all the post.


























 Response Via Email (Support Agent)05/29/2012 01:15 PM
Hello Isaac,

Good question!

Turns out I have mislead you on accident. All additional damage is maximized. (Any damage that is created by that hit.)

I am glad that you got back to me, as I realized I'd given you incorrect information over dinner with my roommate last night. (As you can imagine, we're giant nerds here, and my roommate plays a rogue...)

If you have further questions, please don't hesitate to ask!

Cheers!

We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Steve
Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Sunday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST


 Customer By Web Form (Isaac Lozano)05/28/2012 11:31 PM
Hi Steve,

And if the PC is a barbarian that is hitting with Howling Strike (that has the striker feature implemented into the power), is the additional damage (+1d6/+2d6/+3d6) maximized?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Howling Strike

With a blood-freezing scream, you throw yourself into the fray.

At-Will Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon

Requirement: You must be wielding a melee weapon in two hands.

Target: One creature

Attack: Strength vs. AC

Hit: 1[W] + 1d6 + Strength modifier damage.
Level 11: 1[W] + 2d6 + Strength modifier damage.
Level 21: 2[W] + 3d6 + Strength modifier damage.

Special: When charging, you can use this power in place of a melee basic attack. If you are raging, you can move 2 extra squares as part of the charge.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The compendium's definition of a critical hit seems to say that the only damage that isn't maximized is the dices that you only throw on a critical hit (like High Crit weapons, feats like Devastating Criticals or magical bonus on critic).

Thank you for your clarification.

 Response Via Email (Support Agent)05/28/2012 06:25 PM
Hello Isaac,

Thanks for writing in with your questions!

1) Sneak attack dice are not maximized if the hit used to apply them is a critical. Only the initial damage dice are.

2) Any creature below their bloodied value is bloodied, even dying creatures

I hope these answers have helped.

Cheers!

We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Steve
Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Sunday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST


FYI
Got an official responce from Wizards customer service about how Flurry of Talons works.






















Subject
Flurry of Talons
Discussion Thread
Response Via Email (Support Agent)06/02/2012 02:21 PM
Hello Carl,
Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast Game Support! With Flurry Talons you make three attack roles. If the first attack hits and you miss the other two you roll 1d8+Dex. If you make three attack rolls and miss one of those rolls you get 2d8+Dex. If you hit on all three attacks you get to roll 3d8+Dex.
I hope this was helpful, please let us know if you have any further questions or concerns.
Take Care and Good Gaming!

We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.
To login to your account, or update your question please click here.
Marisa Online Response Crew Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Sunday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST





Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

if only they were reliable *sigh*
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Submitted question:
The power "Storm of Punishment" has an "Effect" line. The power from the source material (Divine Power, page 64) has a "Miss" line instead. The difference is significant.


Hello Douglas,

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast Game Support! This power does appear to have an effect line rather than a miss. The Divine power book has been updated and you may view the new updated powers ether via the Character build or the Compendium:www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/da... 

If you have anymore questions please feel free to contact us again. Happy Gaming!
Raymond



What's the "banging head into desk" emoticon?

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima