Seal of Binding - Solo monster kill in 1 round

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Using the cleric daily power of 25lvl Seal of Binding is sure wint when you strike a solo monster with it and you have Divine Regeneration from Epic Destiny - Demigod. This is so broken. Target is stunned. You don't take any damage couse you gain regeneration 24-28 or so (damage dealt to you and target is 2k10 + about 14) and the target is slowly killed. You can sustain for 50 rounds. LOL.
WOW Good ketch there. your right that would be a insta kill on any solo monster as it is writen.

My quick answer as a GM to this problem would be; i will have to make a declaration that while this power is in effect no healing can be used to negate said damage. If another sorce was doing damage that would be healed.

Still that power is nasty, it becomes an endurance race to see who has the most hit points and to see who blinks first.
If you didn't allow the Cleric to be healed then It'd almost definitely be the enemy. Standard monsters have roughly the same HP as players, and often have a little more than a Cleric. The Elite and Solo monsters you'd really like to use this on have far too much HP for you to possibly outlast them.

Removing both yourself and a standard monster from the battle is kind of a bad deal, as a single PC is usually a bit more powerful than a single standard monster of its level, and the cleric, being a support character, is likely doing more for her teammates than that single standard enemy she's locking down.
The PC is not compleatly locked down they just spend a standerd action and the damage taken to keep going. They can still heal, move, and use an action point to cast another spell.

The bigest problem i see with it is that a level 25 cleric can walk up to a god and if he hits with the power he gets an auto kill if there is no other monsters around to help.
maybe its designed, simply to remove elite and solo monsters from an encounter, until every reinforcements they have are defeated and the entire party can concentrate on them


but i agree, if you disallow healing i think it would be too weak...if you allow healing it will be to strong...

i also thought about the 5min max rule for such powers...but that would still lead to roughly 100d10+150 damage...which is quite much, even for an older dragon
The PC is not compleatly locked down they just spend a standerd action and the damage taken to keep going. They can still heal, move, and use an action point to cast another spell.

Other than the regeneration, how are they healing? An how are they spending more than one action point per encounter?
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
healing word is a minor action, so they can do that 2 times per combat. plus potions are also minor actions, any other class can also heal them while they keep the target locked down. the action point is only if there are other targets in the area that the cleric wants to bother attacking, or a utility power that they might want to use.

over all basic healing and such i would not see as a big problem. it is the regen ability combined with the power that makes it broken.
healing word is a minor action, so they can do that 2 times per combat. plus potions are also minor actions, any other class can also heal them while they keep the target locked down. the action point is only if there are other targets in the area that the cleric wants to bother attacking, or a utility power that they might want to use.

over all basic healing and such i would not see as a big problem. it is the regen ability combined with the power that makes it broken.

That is a ton of resources. Assuming wis28 and a +6 divine implement, you are dealing 26 damage to the enemy and taking 20 yourself every round. Over 50 rounds (since you can only sustain a power for a max of 5 minutes), you will have done 1300 damage (not factoring in resistance) and taken 1000 damage yourself. I don't think you even have that many healing surges to burn through.

Demigod regeneration is really the motor which keeps this combo running.
That is a ton of resources. Assuming wis28 and a +6 divine implement, you are dealing 26 damage to the enemy and taking 20 yourself every round. Over 50 rounds (since you can only sustain a power for a max of 5 minutes), you will have done 1300 damage (not factoring in resistance) and taken 1000 damage yourself. I don't think you even have that many healing surges to burn through.

Demigod regeneration is really the motor which keeps this combo running.

Yes, but even with that regeneration, it's only enough to sustain the character through the damage from Binding Seal. Any DM worth his salt would concentrate the attacks of the solo on the cleric at least long enough to bring the cleric to the bloodied condition necessary to make it impossible to sustain. Considering the number of attacks a solo monster can get, this shouldn't be that hard at all. Once the effect ends, the engine is gone.

Granted, this is still a hefty-effective trick. So long as the cleric can stay out of his range, it very well could work. That, however, seems more a chore than it's worth.
Yes, but even with that regeneration, it's only enough to sustain the character through the damage from Binding Seal. Any DM worth his salt would concentrate the attacks of the solo on the cleric at least long enough to bring the cleric to the bloodied condition necessary to make it impossible to sustain. Considering the number of attacks a solo monster can get, this shouldn't be that hard at all. Once the effect ends, the engine is gone.

Granted, this is still a hefty-effective trick. So long as the cleric can stay out of his range, it very well could work. That, however, seems more a chore than it's worth.

the solo is stunned while this power is active
I have been struggling to find a reliable counter to this, within the RAW.

Ironically, it's more effective against solo creatures. Regeneration applies at the start of your turn, and you cannot sustain the power if you are bloodied, so you need to find a way to deal damage immediately after regeneration occurs. This is easy if you aren't solo and you have minions wandering around.

I can't decide whether the combo is too powerful. I'm tempted to say that at that kind of level, it seems reasonable to have (essentially) a save-or-die power especially since it uses up more than one ability, including a daily.

But it feels as if this is not an intended use of the power. The power severely constrains what it can be used for (standard action to sustain, target cannot be affected by any other damage...) and other regeneration-like abilities seem as if they would be significantly less effective.
ZOMG! a 25+ level can kill a solo over the course of 50 rounds 1/day

See how silly that sounds now. Also it can't be sustained if your bloodied so other monsters could be attacking the Cleric unless your actually sending the solo in solo.
That is a ton of resources. Assuming wis28 and a +6 divine implement, you are dealing 26 damage to the enemy and taking 20 yourself every round. Over 50 rounds (since you can only sustain a power for a max of 5 minutes), you will have done 1300 damage (not factoring in resistance) and taken 1000 damage yourself. I don't think you even have that many healing surges to burn through.

Demigod regeneration is really the motor which keeps this combo running.

I'm pretty sure you and the monster would both be taking 26 damage a round - you only roll damage once for all targets.
ZOMG! a 25+ level can kill a solo over the course of 50 rounds 1/day

ZOMG! A level 25+ character can single handly kill any solo enemy of nearly any power level without risk and chance to defend against it once a day!

Totally not broken!
ZOMG! A level 25+ character can single handly kill any solo enemy of nearly any power level without risk and chance to defend against it once a day!

Totally not broken!

Okay not sure if your serious or not but for the without risk part is only if your taking the solo thing seriuosly, trust me if you do that your players are going to laugh at you. The risk comes from the other enemies on the field,if they bloddy the cleric the effect ends. Also the thread title, Solo monster kill in 1 round, I think your thinking of blade cascade this power will take more than ! round.
Okay not sure if your serious or not but for the without risk part is only if your taking the solo thing seriuosly, trust me if you do that your players are going to laugh at you. The risk comes from the other enemies on the field,if they bloddy the cleric the effect ends. Also the thread title, Solo monster kill in 1 round, I think your thinking of blade cascade this power will take more than ! round.

What makes you think that you are not supposed to use solo monsters without any backup? Certainly not their name.

1 round kill is probably misleading, although only one round of combat is necessary. After that its just standing around and waiting for the enemy to die.
Just have them fight a primordial hydra.
Berc
What makes you think that you are not supposed to use solo monsters without any backup? Certainly not their name.

Fair enough, I was just speaking from my experiences, my group took on a solo above their level as first level characters, and ended up laughing at how unbalanced the encounter was in their favor. I think maybe solo was a bad choice of words, maybe lengendary or something along those lines would have been better.
Please, PLEASE, DM's.
Just because the monster's description says "solo" doesn't mean it's supposed to fight the PC's alone.
Yeah. It's little missleading with that 1 round. But it's true that when you start combo your solo moster is dead Yeah. You can say. What a problem. You give a solo monster some backup, but i don't think its gona settle everyting. Solo is solo. This power is broken and that's true
So fix it.

DMG pg 189

To quote another popular game, "Less QQ, more pew-pew"
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
While this probably won't kill, say, the Tarrasque, it will sure do a heaping helpin' of damage to it. Plus it will have you sitting around for 50 rounds while the cleric rolls damage and everyone else twiddles their thumbs.
The cleric still has to hit. Buffs and that help, but they can still miss. Especially something beyond their level.

If the power needs to be limited, change the last sentence to 'You cannot further sustain this power once you have taken total damage equal to your bloodied value while maintaining this power regardless of healing.' So it doesn't block the healing, it just caps the damage output.
While this probably won't kill, say, the Tarrasque, it will sure do a heaping helpin' of damage to it. Plus it will have you sitting around for 50 rounds while the cleric rolls damage and everyone else twiddles their thumbs.

Well if you can bloody the Tarrasque with that tactic you can then force it to surrender with a intimidate check.
ZOMG! A level 25+ character can single handly kill any solo enemy of nearly any power level without risk and chance to defend against it once a day!

Totally not broken!

Forseriously. Its freaking epic. You can revive yourself once a day when you die. Its not that different.
Let your voice be heard! Tell WotC to Publish D&D 4e under the OGL!
yeah really i dont know if the cleric would last 50rounds before the other players started attacking him in some games... maybe my friends are more adhd then yours
Forseriously. Its freaking epic. You can revive yourself once a day when you die. Its not that different.

So because it is epic (still part of the normal D&D level range) it is ok that a single character can destroy every solo enemy without risk?
At least there is one bright side, this combo would never work on Orcus. with him being able to select what he is gets to be resistant to he would have ER 20/Radiant witch would eat up almost all the damage this spell could do.
So because it is epic (still part of the normal D&D level range) it is ok that a single character can destroy every solo enemy without risk?

Once a day? Sure, why not.
Let your voice be heard! Tell WotC to Publish D&D 4e under the OGL!
Once a day? Sure, why not.

Once per 6 hour rest.
And isn't the Magnificent Mansion spell still in the game which means that at that levels the PCs can rest anywhere?

So you are basically saying that it is ok that at epic level solo enemies, even epic ones, pose no threat anymore?
At least there is one bright side, this combo would never work on Orcus. with him being able to select what he is gets to be resistant to he would have ER 20/Radiant witch would eat up almost all the damage this spell could do.

Radiant isn't on the list of damage types you can be variably resistant to (MM pg 282). I think the bigger plus in Orcus' favor is the extra +10 necrotic damage the Cleric is taking every turn from his aura.
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
At least there is one bright side, this combo would never work on Orcus. with him being able to select what he is gets to be resistant to he would have ER 20/Radiant witch would eat up almost all the damage this spell could do.

Three problems with that.
1. The cleric power is Divine, not Radiant.
2. Orcus' resistance is 10, but he can switch it 3 times per encounter.
3. As zgrose mentioned, the resistance list is limited and Divine is not on the list either.
ZOMG! A level 25+ character can single handly kill any solo enemy of nearly any power level without risk and chance to defend against it once a day!

Totally not broken!

Uh, the power is not without risk. It automatically damages the user. Did you miss that part?

And it takes 50 turns to kill a solo. Are you seriously concerned about a power that slow?
I view this power in much the same way as I do the RAW version of Force Grip in Saga. Yes it is slow but in the right circumstances it is flawless and can be very frustrating to the other players. "Well the Clerics got the [insert big bad that would otherwise take the entire party to deal with], I guess we'll just mop up what is left and wait until he kills it."

My fix for Seal of Binding is to increase the damage the *caster* takes by one dice every time he/she sustains it.
Uh, the power is not without risk. It automatically damages the user. Did you miss that part?

And it takes 50 turns to kill a solo. Are you seriously concerned about a power that slow?

Yes because if the caster can set up a situation where he/she will regain hp faster than Seal of Binding drains it nothing else matters.

And if you can't it is potentially worse because you could end up with round after round of the rest of the *players* doing nothing but watch someone else roll dice to find out how injured its going to be when he finally is releases.
Seriously? The rest of the party is just going to sit there for 50 ROUNDS and wait for the BBEG to die? I don't buy it. At the very least, they can throw some At-Will's and make the BBEG die a lot quicker.

There are powers like this in almost every game. Whatever "He's killing in complete safety!" advantage you perceive gets completely destroyed by the "Oh, sweet mother of gawd kill me now this is taking forever" aspect of the power.
Seal of Binding makes the target immune to damage from other sources.
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
The Wizards of the Coast guy at game day was talking about this during our playtest encounter. He said the answer to this combo was "DM summons two Balrogs to the battlefield."

Nuff said.
Yes because if the caster can set up a situation where he/she will regain hp faster than Seal of Binding drains it nothing else matters.

And if you can't it is potentially worse because you could end up with round after round of the rest of the *players* doing nothing but watch someone else roll dice to find out how injured its going to be when he finally is releases.

So what? It takes 50 rounds, and you can use it once per day, and uses your epic power.
Seal of Binding makes the target immune to damage from other sources.

Right, but there should still be other things to do. I can't bring myself to care about this.
LOL. None of Daily powers can kill a solo monster. This is an exception. i don't want to take time for a cleric who roll dies 50 times and kill a monster, then go to rest and make combo againt. There will be players who will do this and thats realy freakin' me out. Mayby wizards will do sth with that prayer. No healing, regeneration allowed? Thats kind good solution I think.
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