Per-day powers (calling down the thunder)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WotC_Logan All classes let you do a little of all three.
At-will powers are there so you never run out of options.
Per-encounter powers are there so you can always take it up a notch.
Per-day powers are there so you can really bring down the thunder when you need to.

This really sparks my imagination, anyone have some examples of the Per-day powers? Just how big does big get?

When they say "really bring down the thunder" it makes me think of powers that abolish entire villages, such as class 5 tornadoes, meteors falling down from the sky, etc.
When they say "really bring down the thunder" it makes me think of powers that abolish entire villages, such as class 5 tornadoes, meteors falling down from the sky, etc.

More like EXPEDITIOUS RETREAT, SLEEP, and ACID ARROW. :P
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I think the nastiest attack spell I've seen in an excerpt is the 15th level wizard daily power Prismatic Beams. It hits all enemies in a 5 square burst with up to three different spells simultaneously:

Prismatic Beams
Wizard Attack 15
Scintillating beams of rainbow-colored light spring from your outstretched hand, affecting your foes in unpredictable ways.

Daily ✦ Arcane, Fire, Implement, Poison
Standard Action Close burst 5

Target: Each enemy in burst

Attack: Intelligence vs Fortitude, Reflex, Will

Hit (Fortitude): If the attack hits the target’s Fortitude defense, the target takes 2d6 + Intelligence modifier poison damage, and ongoing 5 poison damage (save ends).

Hit (Reflex): If the attack hits the target’s Reflex defense, the target takes 2d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage, and ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends).

Hit (Will): If the attack hits the target’s Will defense, the target is dazed (save ends).

Special: You make only one attack per target, but compare that attack result against all three defenses. A target might be subject to any, all, or none of the effects depending on how many of its defenses were hit. The target must make a saving throw against each ongoing effect separately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WotC_Logan All classes let you do a little of all three.
At-will powers are there so you never run out of options.
Per-encounter powers are there so you can always take it up a notch.
Per-day powers are there so you can really bring down the thunder when you need to.

This really sparks my imagination, anyone have some examples of the Per-day powers? Just how big does big get?

When they say "really bring down the thunder" it makes me think of powers that abolish entire villages, such as class 5 tornadoes, meteors falling down from the sky, etc.

Beowulf:

I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but since the 4e designers decided that the only way to create balanced characters was to give everyone the same basic game mechanic and to keep them the same basic power level, the only way they could have had spellcasters "bring down the thunder" by "calling down meteors" or "spawning class five tornadoes" was if they could figure out how they could do comparable things for a fighter with a sword.

And they pushed that as far (or much farther than) any reasonable person could imagine, but as far as they pushed the fighter, even they could not rationalize "calling down the thunder" to the level of class five tornadoes or meteors that demolish entire villages.

And since fighters can't do anything of that magnitude....

Neither can wizards.

Welcome to 4e.
...I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but since the 4e designers decided that the only way to create balanced characters was to give everyone the same basic game mechanic and to keep them the same basic power level, the only way they could have had spellcasters "bring down the thunder" by "calling down meteors" or "spawning class five tornadoes" was if they could figure out how they could do comparable things for a fighter with a sword....

Just to be clear, though, wizards can still do things that fighters can't and vice versa. The Prismatic Beams power I mentioned above is a good example. I doubt fighters have a power that can explode and do a bunch of damage to everything within 25 feet. (They might, though, have a daily power that lets them do something like mark everything within 25 feet. Who knows?)

So just because wizards and fighters are somewhat on the same "power scale" in terms of usefulness in a fight, that doesn't mean wizards can't lob bombs in 4th edition. The wizard have bombs, but they're conventional weapons, not nuclear weapons.
Just to be clear, though, wizards can still do things that fighters can't and vice versa. The Prismatic Beams power I mentioned above is a good example. I doubt fighters have a power that can explode and do a bunch of damage to everything within 25 feet. (They might, though, have a daily power that lets them do something like mark everything within 25 feet. Who knows?)

So just because wizards and fighters are somewhat on the same "power scale" in terms of usefulness in a fight, that doesn't mean wizards can't lob bombs in 4th edition. The wizard have bombs, but they're conventional weapons, not nuclear weapons.

The OPs excitement was specifically about the potential for wizards to be able to take out entire villages by "calling down the thunder." Telling him that he can still cast a meteor spell that might take out one tent is probably accurate, but would not (and does not) provide much in the way of excitement about what wizards can do.

"Oh, you can still be a wizard and do wizardy sorts of things, you just won't be able to do anything that would make a player whine that his fighter can't do something comparable any more."

And they MIGHT be able to lob hand grenades, but bombs are pretty much out of the picture.
at first level, it seems with what we have, all daily powers basically do

3[W] + ability modifier damage + some extra effect.

AKW
at first level, it seems with what we have, all daily powers basically do

3[W] + ability modifier damage + some extra effect.

AKW

That doesnt seem to be the case with the wizard or the cleric. From what we know, with the wizard it can be either what is essentially a ranged burst attack and doesnt follow any [W] based platform, or sleep, which is hardly just 3[W] + ability modifier damage + some extra effect.

As for the cleric, he doesnt even do damage with his/her 1st level daily in Keep on the Shadowfell.
The OPs excitement was specifically about the potential for wizards to be able to take out entire villages by "calling down the thunder." Telling him that he can still cast a meteor spell that might take out one tent is probably accurate, but would not (and does not) provide much in the way of excitement about what wizards can do.

"Oh, you can still be a wizard and do wizardy sorts of things, you just won't be able to do anything that would make a player whine that his fighter can't do something comparable any more."

And they MIGHT be able to lob hand grenades, but bombs are pretty much out of the picture.

Or maybe there are large-scale destruction rituals. Or maybe the wizard is based more around area effects than the fighter, and so his dailies will be more AoE-focused?
The OPs excitement was specifically about the potential for wizards to be able to take out entire villages by "calling down the thunder." Telling him that he can still cast a meteor spell that might take out one tent is probably accurate, but would not (and does not) provide much in the way of excitement about what wizards can do.

Since a first level Wizard has an encounter power that can destroy a tent (Force Orb), it seems to be more reasonable to assume that a high level Wizard will have powers that could easily destroy the average village.

That would also be the level when Fighters can do stuff like smash down a stone tower with their great axe.

Sounds pretty exciting and conducive to descriptions of impressive feats like those often found in historical myths and epics.
I just have to say something that might sound a bit judgmental but I have to say it anyway.

If a level 30 Epic Wizard didn't have a single spell that could trash an entire village, then I would have to say he isn't very epic in my book.

Why I say this isn't because of some hell bent feeling about Wizards being underpowered, I say this because Wizards at this level of power should be able to do just that.
The big, bold magics of previous editions are in the past. If the fighter could down stone towers with a swing of his axe, that would be pretty anime/magical- and they aren't going for that, they've clearly stated. Fighters do mortal things with skill, sword and shield. They do not yell "hadouken!" and go all power level 9 million on it.

As previous posters have said, that means that wizards are 'gimped' to compensate. All powers now act on a very personal/tactical scale, so I'm not expecting any battle magics that can level a city.

Now, RITUALS on the other hand can do whatever you in your dirty little magic-munchkining heart can dream of. Including the earth swallowing cities and class 5 tornadoes ruining your DM's game world's shoreline. Go nuts.
They have also stated that even the martial power source is not entirely non-magical. Fighters will be able to do things (especially at paragon and epic levels) that normal people in the real world can't do.
A PC's normal power suite is for taking on monsters and traps during combat encounters. Utility powers can be used outside combat, but these are intended to be helpful rather than destructive.

Just how a village qualifies as a 'monster' or 'trap' is anyone's guess. If it's in Eberron's Mournlands, then yeah, maybe. But apart from that, any form of settlement nuking is what rituals are for. Since they take at least 10 minutes to cast, and I'd say much more for the most powerful ones, it's likely that anyone wanting to turn a village into a smoking ruin might find it difficult to perform the ritual for long enough without anyone objecting.
The big, bold magics of previous editions are in the past. If the fighter could down stone towers with a swing of his axe, that would be pretty anime/magical- and they aren't going for that, they've clearly stated. Fighters do mortal things with skill, sword and shield. They do not yell "hadouken!" and go all power level 9 million on it.

An average 20th level fighter in 3.5 can chop through over a foot and a half of stone in six seconds.

And he can do it without yelling... just sayin'

How that will compare to 4th ed fighters prowess at landscape destruction remains to be seen
An average 20th level fighter in 3.5 can chop through over a foot and a half of stone in six seconds.

And he can do it without yelling... just sayin'

How that will compare to 4th ed fighters prowess at landscape destruction remains to be seen

Would you say a well armed level 30 Fighter could walk into a village and slaughter its inhabitants without being killed in the process? If so, say the Wizard tried it his own way, using his spells, would he do just as well?
1) Would you say a well armed level 30 Fighter could walk into a village and slaughter its inhabitants without being killed in the process?
2) If so, say the Wizard tried it his own way, using his spells, would he do just as well?

1) We don't know, but unless the DM wants to impede that by having high-level NPCs come out of the tavern to kick the fighter's butt, I think the Fighter should be able to slaughter a whole village without much problem (other than chasing everyone that should be trying to run for their lives).

2) Assuming the Fighter can do that, the Wizard should manage the same just fine. Notice that this doesn't mean he just casts "über megaspell of death" and kills everyone. What the wizard does is go to Town Square and start nuking everything. It will take him some time, and if high-level NPCs emerge from the tavern to kick his butt, he's as screwed as the fighter.

And of course, people have mentioned in other posts that maybe rituals are what you're thinking of. "
Wiping out a village with a single spell is just a matter of getting the spell area wide enough. Using 3.5's rules, 20d6 fire damage would ruin most houses, assuming they have use wood in their construction. If they are entirely made of stone, just switch to sonic or acid and you should still be able to do enough damage to cause a collapse.

I think Wizard vs Town will go similarly in 4e. It may be more difficult to get such a wide spell area. The damage will probably be expressed more like 4d6 + 46. At worst, the Wizard will have to take down villages of worthless peons only one house at a time.

And as for high level Fighters...
Show
IMAGE(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x149/Gnomick/Motivators/highlevelfightersshouldbeabletoparr.jpg)
I wish I could take credit for this

... just sayin'
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While it is true that rituals are probably where the "uber-spell of death" is going to come from. I can't help but think that fighters will be just like the "uber-heroes" from comics and novels and stuff.

Has anyone thought that the high-level fighter powers might be like Limit Breaks from Final Fantasy 7? I have, and I'd like to hold on to that belief until I read the PHB, and see what the powers are really like :D
Since they take at least 10 minutes to cast, and I'd say much more for the most powerful ones, it's likely that anyone wanting to turn a village into a smoking ruin might find it difficult to perform the ritual for long enough without anyone objecting.

I could actually see this working as a ritual that would take about a week to cast. At the end of the week (or whatever), a ball of fire a quarter-mile wide slams into the town or city. In the meantime, horrible things are happening ... people are getting sick, lightning is stabbing down out of a clear sky, the cows are turning into brain-eating zombies ... that sort of thing. Warning signs that should make the astute villager say "it's time to find me some heroes."

I see no reason why PC's couldn't get their sweaty little hands on that ritual, too :D. The wizard spends his week chanting and burning incense, and has all his minions assisting, and the rest of the party holds the citadel against the NPC heroes crawling out of the woodwork.

That doesn't sound too unbalanced to me. Uber-destruction, provided there's a chance to thwart it.

Just a thought.
Nothing, damage-wise, gets that big in 4th Ed, I haven't seen anything over 6d6 yet, and that was a high level Daily.

They have toned damage way down in 4th Ed…way down.
Nothing, damage-wise, gets that big in 4th Ed, I haven't seen anything over 6d6 yet, and that was a high level Daily.

They have toned damage way down in 4th Ed…way down.

what epic powers have they shown for wizards? fighters?
what epic powers have they shown for wizards?

I didn't say Epic, but check out below:



Blast of Cold Wizard Attack 15
'You create a tremendous blast of supernatural cold, freezing your
enemies.'
Daily * Arcane, Cold, Implement
Standard Action Close blast 5
Target: Each enemy in blast
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 6d6 + Intelligence modifier cold damage, and tar-
get is immobilized (save ends).
Miss: Half damage, and the target is slowed (save ends).
That is about midway on the power spectrum if level is to be any indication.

Then consider that it has a very powerful side effect of immobilizing the targets. A spell with a less potent side effect would likely do more damage.

It doesn't seem unheard of for a level 30 power to be 3-4 times more damaging than that if it was highly focused on damage.
I didn't say Epic, but check out below:



Blast of Cold Wizard Attack 15
'You create a tremendous blast of supernatural cold, freezing your
enemies.'
Daily * Arcane, Cold, Implement
Standard Action Close blast 5
Target: Each enemy in blast
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 6d6 + Intelligence modifier cold damage, and tar-
get is immobilized (save ends).
Miss: Half damage, and the target is slowed (save ends).

sounds fine for a mid level spell honestly, you get moderate damage to several targets and can freeze or slow them.
sounds fine for a mid level spell honestly, you get moderate damage to several targets and can freeze or slow them.

Absolutely, I totally agree, I'm just saying compared to the amounts of damage characters could throw around in 3rd Ed, this is pretty tame (in a good way, I'm sick of the numbers bloat of 3rd Ed).

You will not see 20d6 damage spells 4th Ed…thank god.
I imagine magic spells like a meteor swarm with verbal component: "INCOMING!!!"
I imagine magic spells like a meteor swarm with verbal component: "INCOMING!!!"

Total, or maybe "Fire in the Hole!"
Total, or maybe "Fire in the Hole!"

Sergeant Tagnar Fireforge was breathing heavily as he lay prone in the cold, grasping mud of the battlefield. As part of the King's 12th Scouts ("Wyrmbreakers"), he and his fellow soldiers had been tasked with discovering the enemy's artillery positions. Now, days of fighting through the enemy's line had finally paid off. As he peeked his head over the low stone wall he was using as cover, he could clearly make out a group of humanoid skeletons loading magical shot into several large catapults. A platoon of the creatures were standing guard, lead by a human necromancer wearing bone armor. Sgt Fireforge took a moment to calculate the odds- his troops were the best, but the squad had suffered heavy casualties; only three of his privates were in any shape to fight. Fortunately, his command had foreseen this eventuality.

Sgt Fireforge opened a small leather pouch at his waist and withdrew a glowing blue crystal about the size of a grape. With a simple word of command, the enchanted stone opened a two-way link with headquarters.

"Crown One, this is Wyrmbreaker Three, request fire support, over."

"Wyrmbreaker Three, this is Crown One. Copy request for fire support. Birds are en-route. ETA four minutes, over."

"Crown One, this is Wymbreaker Three. Copy, out."

It was only three minutes before he could make out the figures of large eagles in the dim morning sun. Mystically tracking the energy from his crystal, the three wizards and their eagle companions were making a bee-line for the undead soldiers. The necromancer panicked, trying to drive his forces to cover, but wasn't fast enough. The eagles dived, shrieking their war cries as the wizards pelted the artillery with fireball after fireball. Soon, the wizards were pulling away, their magics nearly spent and a long flight over hostile territory to go. The Wyrmbreakers silently wished them well- knowing that they still had several more weapon emplacements to find

(That's how I call down the thunder! Hooah)
Nothing, damage-wise, gets that big in 4th Ed, I haven't seen anything over 6d6 yet, and that was a high level Daily.

A level 1 fighter can do 6d6 with his Reliable daily and a Maul.
Show
Sergeant Tagnar Fireforge was breathing heavily as he lay prone in the cold, grasping mud of the battlefield. As part of the King's 12th Scouts ("Wyrmbreakers"), he and his fellow soldiers had been tasked with discovering the enemy's artillery positions. Now, days of fighting through the enemy's line had finally paid off. As he peeked his head over the low stone wall he was using as cover, he could clearly make out a group of humanoid skeletons loading magical shot into several large catapults. A platoon of the creatures were standing guard, lead by a human necromancer wearing bone armor. Sgt Fireforge took a moment to calculate the odds- his troops were the best, but the squad had suffered heavy casualties; only three of his privates were in any shape to fight. Fortunately, his command had foreseen this eventuality.

Sgt Fireforge opened a small leather pouch at his waist and withdrew a glowing blue crystal about the size of a grape. With a simple word of command, the enchanted stone opened a two-way link with headquarters.

"Crown One, this is Wyrmbreaker Three, request fire support, over."

"Wyrmbreaker Three, this is Crown One. Copy request for fire support. Birds are en-route. ETA four minutes, over."

"Crown One, this is Wyrmbreaker Three. Copy, out."

It was only three minutes before he could make out the figures of large eagles in the dim morning sun. Mystically tracking the energy from his crystal, the three wizards and their eagle companions were making a bee-line for the undead soldiers. The necromancer panicked, trying to drive his forces to cover, but wasn't fast enough. The eagles dived, shrieking their war cries as the wizards pelted the artillery with fireball after fireball. Soon, the wizards were pulling away, their magics nearly spent and a long flight over hostile territory to go. The Wyrmbreakers silently wished them well- knowing that they still had several more weapon emplacements to find


(That's how I call down the thunder! Hooah)

That was beautiful! I could just see it happening in Eberron during The Last War; Aundair vs Karnath.
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Sergeant Tagnar Fireforge was breathing heavily as he lay prone in the cold, grasping mud of the battlefield. As part of the King's 12th Scouts ("Wyrmbreakers"), he and his fellow soldiers had been tasked with discovering the enemy's artillery positions. Now, days of fighting through the enemy's line had finally paid off. As he peeked his head over the low stone wall he was using as cover, he could clearly make out a group of humanoid skeletons loading magical shot into several large catapults. A platoon of the creatures were standing guard, lead by a human necromancer wearing bone armor. Sgt Fireforge took a moment to calculate the odds- his troops were the best, but the squad had suffered heavy casualties; only three of his privates were in any shape to fight. Fortunately, his command had foreseen this eventuality.

Sgt Fireforge opened a small leather pouch at his waist and withdrew a glowing blue crystal about the size of a grape. With a simple word of command, the enchanted stone opened a two-way link with headquarters.

"Crown One, this is Wyrmbreaker Three, request fire support, over."

"Wyrmbreaker Three, this is Crown One. Copy request for fire support. Birds are en-route. ETA four minutes, over."

"Crown One, this is Wymbreaker Three. Copy, out."

It was only three minutes before he could make out the figures of large eagles in the dim morning sun. Mystically tracking the energy from his crystal, the three wizards and their eagle companions were making a bee-line for the undead soldiers. The necromancer panicked, trying to drive his forces to cover, but wasn't fast enough. The eagles dived, shrieking their war cries as the wizards pelted the artillery with fireball after fireball. Soon, the wizards were pulling away, their magics nearly spent and a long flight over hostile territory to go. The Wyrmbreakers silently wished them well- knowing that they still had several more weapon emplacements to find

(That's how I call down the thunder! Hooah)

I SO want to be one of those wizards! :D
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I imagine magic spells like a meteor swarm with verbal component: "INCOMING!!!"

LOL...too funny

"Crown One, this is Wyrmbreaker Three, request fire support, over."

"Wyrmbreaker Three, this is Crown One. Copy request for fire support. Birds are en-route. ETA four minutes, over."

"Crown One, this is Wymbreaker Three. Copy, out."


(That's how I call down the thunder! Hooah)

Gun Bunny...:D
I didn't say Epic, but check out below:

Blast of Cold Wizard Attack 15
'You create a tremendous blast of supernatural cold, freezing your
enemies.'
Daily * Arcane, Cold, Implement
Standard Action Close blast 5
Target: Each enemy in blast
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 6d6 + Intelligence modifier cold damage, and tar-
get is immobilized (save ends).
Miss: Half damage, and the target is slowed (save ends).

Well remember that you're looking at wizard powers, which are based around hitting multiple targets and inflicting status effects. We have yet to see a true pure blasting power yet.
Look, a wizard might be able to (with the help of a week-long ritual) call down a house-sized meteor in order to crush and burn an army of undead, but a fighter can leap over said army of undead and decapitate the necromancer leader in one move. Both leads to the destruction of the entire army, but the Fighter does it that much quicker. Who's better now, I ask you.
Example of Pure AOE goodness. My wife is running the wizard in keep on the shadowfell, she runs into the middle of oncoming kobolds and releases her Burning Hands encounter power. After damage was tallied, there were 6 smoldering kolbold minions and one shieldwearer left. An action point/magic missle saw the end to him. If thats not power at first level i don't know what is.
Look, a wizard might be able to (with the help of a week-long ritual) call down a house-sized meteor in order to crush and burn an army of undead, but a ROGUE can leap over said army of undead and decapitate the necromancer leader in one move. Both leads to the destruction of the entire army, but the Rogue does it that much quicker. Who's better now, I ask you.

Fixed it for you. Leaping deep into the enemy ranks to take out a single important target is the job of a Striker, like a Rogue or a Ranger. Fighters are Defender. They do almost the exact opposite. Fighters are there to prevent the enemies from leaping over the party and decapitating the Wizard in one move.

And taking out the leader doesn't instantly turn the zombies to dust. They'll still be there gnawing at your flesh. They'll just have less tactical direction and no more incoming buffs.
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I'm glad to see that Wizards have been toned down in 4th ed. I have played both to epic levels in previous editions and honestly I just hated playing a new campaign without having a wizard in the party, because they have the save or die spells that really saved PC hides. Still I just hated being a fighter and having to run for my life when we did not have a wizard to take out a tough monster quickly. I love playing fighters, and I'm looking forward to playing one in 4th ed, because I get the feeling that they will be able to hang with high level wizards. With wizards being "toned down" how will they survive at low levels. I felt like they were very weak in 3.5 at low levels. I guess that 4th ed has balanced the game, but there is always something that gets out of control.
Fixed it for you. Leaping deep into the enemy ranks to take out a single important target is the job of a Striker, like a Rogue or a Ranger. Fighters are Defender. They do almost the exact opposite. Fighters are there to prevent the enemies from leaping over the party and decapitating the Wizard in one move.

And taking out the leader doesn't instantly turn the zombies to dust. They'll still be there gnawing at your flesh. They'll just have less tactical direction and no more incoming buffs.

Fair enough. Put it this way - the fighter will be able to act almost as a wall of iron/steel to stop the entire army by himself whilst the rogue does his leaping decapitation and then they get hit by the wizards meteor. I suppose that fighters are not supposed to be as damaging or masterfull at killing loads quickly, but they can take on an entire army in close combat, and walk out when the dust of the destroyed Undead has settled with barely a scratch. Wizards would be overwhelmed in that situation.
What size army are you talking about? Do you mean a literal army of hundreds or thousands? Do you mean a virtual army of 4 minions of the party's level per PC plus one elite leader equal to the party's level? Unless it's the later, it isn't a balanced encounter and all the PCs will overwhelmed. Fighters don't have infinite HP. Rogues can't avoid opportunity attacks forever.

I'll assume it's an appropriate, if difficult, encounter. Let's say it's 12 tenth-level skeleton minions and 1 tenth-level Necromancer versus 3 tenth-level characters: a Wizard, a Fighter, and a Rogue. The Rogue charges in after the Necromancer. The Wizard launches area-of-effect spells to clear a path for the Rogue so he doesn't get chewed up by the skeletons' opportunity attacks. The Fighter holds back swaths of skeletons from reaching the relatively squishy Wizard. The Rogue can't live make it without the Wizard who can't survive without the Fighter who won't last unless they all win the battle soon. It's a team game, and everyone has their part to play. They all depend on each other. This is balance.

There's also nothing to indicate that any rituals will take more than a few hours to cast, or that any rituals are restricted by class. But we'll have to wait until the books are in our hands to know for sure.

With wizards being "toned down" how will they survive at low levels. I felt like they were very weak in 3.5 at low levels. I guess that 4th ed has balanced the game, but there is always something that gets out of control.

Wizards weren't simply toned down in 4e. Low level Wizards were reinforced with more HP, infinite basic spells, and kinder opportunity-attack rules. At the same time, high level Wizards can no longer dominate the game due to the removal of save-or-dies, lowered damage for area-of-effect spells, and the newfound efficacy of non-casters. Wizards haven't been toned down -- they've been balanced.
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