I'm a little confused. If I'm understanding this correctly, you have two options:
1. You may forgo a paragon path, instead gaining abilities from a second class.
2. You can take a multiclass feat, which gives you a few bonuses and a level 1 power of another class. You may take additional feats which let you exchange a power from your main class for a power from your second class. You may change what that power is whenever you gain a level.
Can you use both these options to essentially triple class?
Second, once you take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific feat for a different class. You can dabble in a second class but not a third.
Personally, I'm not sure how I feel about this. A lot of the flexibility from 3e came from picking and choosing classes as you saw fit. Hopefully 4e will have enough character options to make up for it.
Subsequent feats give access to one each of the encounter, utility, and daily powers. These are level limited (4, 8, and 10, respectively).
When you take one of these power-swap feats, you give up a power of your choice from your primary class and replace it with a power of the same level or lower from the class you have multiclassed in.
Actually, I think those levels are supposed to be a part of the requirements. They apparently had art issues with this excerpt. This is because the article says which implies that the level of your power from a second class is not at all restricted.
Apologies, it was a phrasing issue on my part. By level-limited, I meant the character, not the power, and lower, not upper.
I read it right, but failed to communicate.
The system also forced the core classes to delay abilities after 1st level to avoid cherry picking, where “clever” players simply took one level of as many classes as possible (or layered single levels on to a primary class) to reap the benefits of ungodly saving throws and bizarre but ultimately frightening combinations of class abilities that—like chocolate and pickle relish—were never meant to be combined by men and women of good taste.
The Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power feats give you access to a power from the class for which you took a class-specific multiclass feat. That power replaces a power you would normally have from your primary class. When you take one of these power-swap feats, you give up a power of your choice from your primary class and replace it with a power of the same level or lower from the class you have multiclassed in.
Any time you gain a level, you can alter that decision. Effectively, pretend you’re choosing the power-swap feat for the first time at the new level you’ve just gained. You gain back the power that you gave up originally from your primary class, lose the power that you chose from your second class, and make the trade again. You give up a different power from your primary class and replace it with a new power of the same level from your second class.
hmm, am I disappointed?
what do we lose?
- freedom of choice
- that's all? for example: sneak attack once per encounter? no more weapon
training for mc-ing into fighter?
what do we gain?
- a "class 1" still is effective in "class 1", while having a little bit of "class 2"
- no more level 3/2/1/5/2 cherrypicking builds
time will tell...
...however the article did not seem to explain what happens when I take a level in rogue after taking 4 levels in ranger (other than the hint about the paragon stuff)...
What happened to the oft-mentioned deeper multiclassing system?
What of the playtest warlord who was taking levels of wizard?
Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with years of experience.
I like that by taking a single cross-class training feat, you now qualify for things that require that class. So, as a fighter, if you want a rogue's PP, simply take one feat and poof, you can take the rogue's PP.
I also want to know what happened to the warlord who took levels in wizard. Will we still be able to multiclass the old way, or is multiclassing done exclusively through feats now?
The article is somewhat vague on this, and other issues. At paragon level, do you gain the class features of both your classes if you choose not to take a paragon path? If so, what happens to your multiclass feats? Do you get to retrain them to something else?
I was looking fwd to 4e until this; this is beyond disappointing, only dual class multi and only by wasting feats AND swapping a power out for each power you gain...
this is the suck
I had hope until today.
I don't think our freedom of choice is gone. I do think our choices are a bit more limited, now. However, considering that the classes have so many different build options, I'm not really so sure that any character concept will be lacking.
As for the loss of weapons training...well, to each their own. Instead of moving over to a class and gaining proficiency in nearly all weapons and armor (something that makes little to no sense in both fluff and game balance), we'll have to sacrifice a feat or two to gain what we want. It seems fair to me. Ranger is no longer a 1 - 4 level dabble class. Fighter is no longer a 2 level dabble class and so on.
I have a feeling that this will work out well. I just hope there are more multiclassing feats to choose from. Also, as pointed out earlier, automatically gaining +5 in another skill along with a couple of powers is a powerful thing not to be dismissed.
EDIT: I'm not picking on you or anything. Your post just seemed to stand out to me for some reason.
Wow. I'm speechless.
I've been a huge fan of 4E and eagerly anticipating it. But this?
This is downright terrible.
This sole system has just obliterated pretty much everything I liked about 3rd edition character building. All of it.
Two classes. Stat requirements on the feats. Multiple feat requirements just to replace a smattering of abilities. Let me emphasize that further -- replace them. I get to replace one level appropriate ability with another level appropriate ability and nothing else. That translates to an outright loss in power (other feat options would be a straight increase in power, so I lose that). And if I'm going cross-role in my power selections, then I lose, because I probably picked up an ability that I can't even use to great effectiveness with the rest of my character build. And then there's the paragon path replacement -- I get to toss the fun choice of picking a paragon path in exchange for (maybe) actual multiclassing, but not until level 11 at the earliest. Gee, thanks. That sure solves the "I want to be a fighter/wizard" at level one problem!
BUT where 4e has now lost me is the fact that you are FORCED to “dabble” for the most part and only one class at that. 4e was supposed to be about options and that should include the option of making a fighter mage that doesn’t suck and is as much of one or the other as you wish.
Spending feats to get each power (and yes I see that a feat is less then it once was) still nets a loss as you also forgo a power in the base class… so I spend a feat(which could be used for something else) lose a power I would have gained to gain a power from another class. Weak sauce I say, weak sauce.
It would need to be tested etc but I think that a multi classing feat that gave you a secondary class IE fighter base with wizard secondary and allowed you to gain powers on a swap basis IE don’t take a fighter daily to gain a wizard daily (but with some set limitations ie you are not as good a wizard as a pure wizard… something like ¾ as good) would have been preferable. So you end up not a pure fighter (lacking powers as you decided to drop them) and not as good as a full wizard (you only have a few “spell” powers determined by how many you took + said tested limitations)
Also this would make a wizard/fighter different then a fighter/wizard different then a fighter/wizard/rogue etc…
Anyway I think that after some playtesting with my group we will run a multi class that costs ONE feat and you can then drop to gain powers as you level.
On a final note (and back to my mixed feelings) my interpretation of the power feats is this: Novice Power grants an encounter power from an additional class. The feat can be taken at any level, but the power granted by the feat cannot be higher than 4th level. Acolyte Power does the same, but for utility powers and the power can't be higher than 8th. Adept for dailies with a max power level of 10th.
This is just an interpretation. Does anyone know differently? Or are other guesses just that - guesses and interpretation?
Epiphany. This was confusing for about an hour, but I think I finally get it. It's awkwardly worded, but makes some sense.
Let's say you're level 15, and you have this setup. And your level 7 encounter power is a Fighter power, but you're a rogue.Class Level Encounter Powers Daily Powers Utility Powers<br />
15th P, 13, 7, 3 15, 9, 5 P, 10, 6, 2
Then let's say you hit level 17, and you trade out your level 3 encounter power and pick up one of the highest level you can learn, level 17. At every level you gain, your 'multiclass' power(s) get reset, and you get to make the choice of what power to swap out again.Class Level Encounter Powers Daily Powers Utility Powers<br />
17th P, 17, 13, 7 15, 9, 5 P, 16, 10, 6, 2
So now, your level 7 encounter power is a rogue power again, and you decide to lose that level 13 power in favor of a fighter power, thus advancing in fighter power and getting some of your older rogue power back... It's oddly worded but it makes sense after a fashion.
Heck, if you wanted even MORE wizard capability, you can forgo your paragon and focus on wizard abilities(still not sure how this works).
Regardless of how powerful there are or are not, feats are a finite resource, and you're already giving up your class powers for the "multiclass" powers anyway.
Far better would have been to just have one multiclassing feat that covered the base training AND the novice/acolyte/adept feats. You're already paying an opportunity cost and reducing your effectiveness in your primary class just by swapping out powers. Not to mention the various feats you'll need to burn to pick up the extras, like Ritual Magic for the fighter/mage or Trapfinding for the fighter/thief, etc. Assuming, of course, that they're even available as feats in the first place.
And Gods help you if you were looking at anything like a cleric/mage/thief combination. There's no pair of existing classes that will cover that one. I suppose you could houserule out the "one base multiclassing feat only" rule, but as someone else said on these boards today, if you have to houserule before the books are even released then the rules have failed.