STR, CON, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA

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The six ability scores, strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdon, and charisma. I heard they are not generated by rolling 4d6 anymore.

Is this true and if so, then how are they generated?
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No idea, but I suspect the system will be very similar to the old one (possibly different weightings for buying different scores). Of course there's nothing to stop you rolling 4d6-lowest if you want...
Green haired rodent, drinks lots of coffee. Currently playing: Advanced Fighting Fantasy, D&D, Amber, Witchcraft. Forums feature request: non-US date format. 1 May 09 to me is 1/5/09, not 5/1/09, which looks like 5 Jan 09.
The abiltys are now generated by using points.
The abiltys are now generated by using points.

That being said however, I'm sure that rolling can still be a viable method if your group decides to do that. It's just that point buy is apparently going to be the default.
That being said however, I'm sure that rolling can still be a viable method if your group decides to do that. It's just that point buy is apparently going to be the default.

Yep, like fixed hp – I wonder if there will be a random hp variant. I wouldn't use it, but some people like randomness in character creation/levelling (again, not me).
I don't see any good reason why any group that wants to keep rolling 4d6-lowest won't continue to do so. I never liked the 3e point buy setup myself & don't plan to use the 4e version, since the old way has always worked just fine. But something of a tradition in D&D will die a little bit with 4e...

Think about it: no more "rolling up" a new character - now you'll "buy" one. It's just a tiny bit of wording, maybe, but it just doesn't sound right.
I think point buy is going to be the default, but I'm guessing they will include 4d6 as a variant.

I like point buy personally.
Back in September or October the word from the devs was that three methods were provided to be in the Core Books (roll, point, and set distribution).

What made it through editing and final arrangement of the books is not officially known.

Likely, for some compatability reasons, there will be a small paragraph on alternate methods if not listed in the PHB but in the DMG in a section on modifying character creation and such.
Back in September or October the word from the devs was that three methods were provided to be in the Core Books (roll, point, and set distribution).

This actually makes perfect sense if they want to make the majority happy, & I hope this is still the case when the books hit the shelves. Keep the rolling method for traditionalist/randomness fans, include point buy for those who want that uber-strong fighter with that low-Cha "face like a can of smashed worms" feel, & toss in the "elite array" set distribution method that the developers used for most 3.x NPCs, which produces pretty balanced characters that fit most classes well.

Yeah, that'd be sweet.
Personally, I love the stat arrays.

Rolling seems to swingy and point buy just seems to wargamey.
The abiltys are now generated by using points.

They always were. Even in 3ed that was one of the ways a DM could choose for his players. I don't see that changing for 4ed. I'm sure there will be a variety of ways to generate stats.
Yep, like fixed hp – I wonder if there will be a random hp variant. I wouldn't use it, but some people like randomness in character creation/levelling (again, not me).

And others think that every fighter with 16 con being the clone of every other fighter with a 16 con, just doesn't make sense. We like variety, and in some cases, for things to be more realistic. Hit point ranges are one of those ways.
And others think that every fighter with 16 con being the clone of every other fighter with a 16 con, just doesn't make sense. We like variety, and in some cases, for things to be more realistic. Hit point ranges are one of those ways.

And a difference of 2 HPs really makes you feel that you are different?

If the constitution score is exactly the same, then health-wise they are the same. Randomly rolling HPs is actually less then realistic!

What should make to fighters who both started out with 16s different is HP feats, permanent damage lowering their constitution, level raise to stats showing they worked to improve their constitution.

Random stats now are a decent tool because not everyone is created equal and I personally have just as much fun RPing a low stat as a high one. My method of choice was random stats, full HPs in 3.5 ed.
And a difference of 2 HPs really makes you feel that you are different?

Where do you get 2 hit points from? 1d10 does not equal 2 hit points.

If the constitution score is exactly the same, then health-wise they are the same. Randomly rolling HPs is actually less then realistic!

Wrong. They are the same in that the both get 16 hit points for their CON, but that's where they stop being the same. Hit points after that in 4ed are not based at all on anything physical. In 3ed, they would get a con bonus to represent ALL of the physical hit points per level that they got, the rest were non-physical which included the entirety of the 1d10.

What should make to fighters who both started out with 16s different is HP feats, permanent damage lowering their constitution, level raise to stats showing they worked to improve their constitution.

Correct, except that you forgot to include levels there.

Random stats now are a decent tool because not everyone is created equal and I personally have just as much fun RPing a low stat as a high one. My method of choice was random stats, full HPs in 3.5 ed.

That would be unbalancing in 3ed since the game was not designed around everyone having max hit points. A better option was allowing players to re-roll until they got 50% or more of the die roll IF they rolled a 1 or 2 in the previous level. That averaged things out without getting unbalancing, and prevented catastrophes where a player rolled consistently low for several levels.
Also consider the DDI 'matchmaking' games. I believe that GMs will have the ability to restrict characters to 'canon' methods of generation (ie. point buy). Much like the point buy in NWN, it helps weed out the cheaters/munchkins. As far as I've heard, the point buy is the 'official' mechanism now.
Where do you get 2 hit points from? 1d10 does not equal 2 hit points.

That's true, but 2 is a perfect example of a 1d10 roll. In fact, 10% of the time, it's a 1 hp difference.
That's true, but 2 is a perfect example of a 1d10 roll. In fact, 10% of the time, it's a 1 hp difference.

Er, no. It would be a 0-9 hit point difference every level, since both fighters are rolling and have an equal CON. Keep trying, though.
Think about it: no more "rolling up" a new character - now you'll "buy" one. It's just a tiny bit of wording, maybe, but it just doesn't sound right.

My circle calls it "rolling up a new character" in all cases. The actual mechanics are irrelevant.

Even with WoW, where you just made 3 choices and a character popped out, it's still "rolling an alt". I don't think that bit of terminology will go away soon.
Er, no. It would be a 0-9 hit point difference every level, since both fighters are rolling and have an equal CON. Keep trying, though.

I thought that you actually understood edge2k2's point earlier, allow me to clarify.

Everytime two characters roll a die for hp, there is a chance that one of the rolls will be 2 higher than the other. The difference is 2 hp, neither character finds religion, they don't use their father's shield, and they don't send money home to their families. The roll will only ever affect hp no matter what the difference is.

So, there are two main sides to the point, #1 is that even rolling a thousand d20 dice, the difference could be as little as two. #2 is that when the DM asks you to describe your character "He has 72 hp" will never really be a full answer.
I thought that you actually understood edge2k2's point earlier, allow me to clarify.

Everytime two characters roll a die for hp, there is a chance that one of the rolls will be 2 higher than the other. The difference is 2 hp, neither character finds religion, they don't use their father's shield, and they don't send money home to their families. The roll will only ever affect hp no matter what the difference is.

That's irrelevent. So what if there is a chance that over the course of 1 level that there will be a chance for a 2 hit point difference. Over 5 levels, baring some sort of fluke, there will be a greater difference.

So, there are two main sides to the point, #1 is that even rolling a thousand d20 dice, the difference could be as little as two. #2 is that when the DM asks you to describe your character "He has 72 hp" will never really be a full answer.

That's rubbish. Point one is worthless to even consider. The odds of that happening are so low as to not warrant any consideration. point two has no bearing on this discussion at all. No one has claimed that hit points are somehow a character description. My claim is that there is a difference between a fighter of 72 hit points and one of 83 hit points, and given the same CON, that happened via rolling. I don't want to play fighter clones were every 6th level fighter with a 14 con has the same exact hit points. Further, when you roll for hit points, there's anticipation involved, and glee when you roll max or nearly max. Static hit points are :::yawn::: Booooooring.
My claim is that there is a difference between a fighter of 72 hit points and one of 83 hit points ... Static hit points are :::yawn::: Booooooring.

The big difference in my mind is that 72 will be a second class character. He doesn't get +atk to compensate, he is strictly a worse character. Further, if 72 and 83 were in the same party, there would likely be hard feelings, since 83 will be called on to tank more often, and only because of some lucky rolls!

I personally enjoy playing as a larger than life hero, that's why they don't tend to make movies focusing on people that washed out of spy school, not with the same budgets, at least.
The big difference in my mind is that 72 will be a second class character. He doesn't get +atk to compensate, he is strictly a worse character. Further, if 72 and 83 were in the same party, there would likely be hard feelings, since 83 will be called on to tank more often, and only because of some lucky rolls!

Not in any group that I've ever played in. Of course, I generally play with players who are mature and wouldn't have hard feeling over something as stupid as 11 less hit points, but hey. Also, this isn't WoW, despite claims to the contrary, and in a group with 2 fighters, they BOTH go and fight. LOL There is no one fighter who tanks.

I personally enjoy playing as a larger than life hero, that's why they don't tend to make movies focusing on people that washed out of spy school, not with the same budgets, at least.

Great! However, heroism has nothing to do with hit points, and everything to do with overcoming the odds and/or risking death to do something large. This of course means that the person with the fewest hit points can be the most heroic.
And others think that every fighter with 16 con being the clone of every other fighter with a 16 con, just doesn't make sense. We like variety, and in some cases, for things to be more realistic. Hit point ranges are one of those ways.

If you've been relying on random hit points to demarcate the difference between two characters, then I don't think a given system is to blame.
Not in any group that I've ever played in. Of course, I generally play with players who are mature and wouldn't have hard feeling over something as stupid as 11 less hit points, but hey.

Are you sure? Ask them again. I don't think my group is the only one who has feelings, or who values their characters.

Also, this isn't WoW, despite claims to the contrary, and in a group with 2 fighters, they BOTH go and fight. LOL There is no one fighter who tanks.

Maybe not every single time, but one might go into a room before another, one might square off against the tougher of two foes, one might pee on the corpse of the bandit warlord's wife. Guess which of the two will survive longer? He gets the fun tasks.

Great! However, heroism has nothing to do with hit points, and everything to do with overcoming the odds and/or risking death to do something large. This of course means that the person with the fewest hit points can be the most heroic.

On this, I agree with you 100%. Heroism has nothing to do with hit points. To restate a previous point, 'neither character finds religion, they don't use their father's shield, and they don't send money home to their families.' Can't we leave heroics to the roleplaying, and not a roll of the dice?
Point buy alleviates all those character suicides because you rolled poor on stats.
I remember there was a point buy in 2ed
yea, My dad has just about all of it.
even SpellJammer.
I hate point buy. I only ever use it if I'm playing with somebody who just mysteriously gets three eighteens in a row, or when ever I wanna make a major NPC. Otherwise, I stick to the dice. Isn't that what this game is based off of? Dice, Paper, and Pencils/Pens?

It seems contrived, some how less DND if you don't roll for the characters. With Pointbuy, it's always the same stats, unless you intentionally give your guy a crappy score. I don't like that they have predetermined HP, either. I checked out the warlord, and it seems like you just get max HP every level. Seems boring, to me.

Leveling up is the funnest thing for me and my players, they jovially withdraw their dice bags, and head for the D4 or D10, and roll. The watching the faces, hearing the exclamations as they get certain rolls. Priceless. Now it's just, "Alright, 15 HP, again. "

I understand that you can still use a certain method, and I hope that default method is a roll of the dice. Not some nonsense, predetermined stats and HP.
I remember there was a point buy in 2ed
yea, My dad has just about all of it.
even SpellJammer.

Oh wow...this makes me feel a bit old. I had (and still have) over 100 D&D pre-3rd Edition books. Of course, my 13 year-old son is going around spurting off that 2nd Edition is better than any other, but in his defense it WAS the first one he played, and the one that made him fall in love with D&D, so he's very partial. I can't really blame him.
If they are going to go through the bother of a new edition to make characters better balanced, why on earth would you start character generation on an uneven foundation.

It's not really that big of a deal to leave random stat generation as options and I hope they are included as options for those who'll miss them but, making point buy the default makes the most sense.
You dont randomly determine what race you are, what class you are, what feats you have, etc, because your consciously trying to make the fantasy character you want to play. It seems ridiculously arbitrary to roll stats stats considering.
The abiltys are now generated by using points.

So it is going to be better than the point buy system in the DMG now? I mean, come on, getting an 18 stat is 68 points, for pete's sake. Don't you only get 32 at high powered level?
Terms you should know...
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
Points buy may be actually better for roleplaying if one think about it.

You make the character HOW you see him or her in the head, no randomness to botch it.
I prefer Point Buy in 3.5 and will continue to use it in 4E. However, I truly hope they include the array and dice options. Everyone should play however they wish to; there is no "right" way to play D&D.
So it is going to be better than the point buy system in the DMG now? I mean, come on, getting an 18 stat is 68 points, for pete's sake. Don't you only get 32 at high powered level?

The table in the DMG is total, not cumulative. This conclusion is draw the explanation which says that scores of 14 or lower are taken on a one for one basis combined with the steady progression of the table from scores 9 through 14. Thus, an 18 stat costs 16 points.
The 3.5e point buy does not work for the pregens that have been disclosed. I believe the default will be a 32 point buy where an 18 costs 18, and other scores cost 1 per point over 8, +1 per point over 13. (That works with the pregens.)

However, based upon recent releases that suggest characters gain +1 to an ability score at 11th, 14th, and 18th levels, I have applied algebra to the pregens again with the assumption that you also get a +1 at 1st, 4th, and 8th. It actually works, but the results are a little less satisfactory than my previous calculations. Specifically:

30 point buy
17 costs 16, and other scores cost 1 per point over 8, +1 per point over 13. I would have to guess how much an 18 costs.

So, I'm guessing that you do not get a +1 to any ability score at 1st level. AFIK, it cannot be proven either way.
And others think that every fighter with 16 con being the clone of every other fighter with a 16 con, just doesn't make sense. We like variety, and in some cases, for things to be more realistic. Hit point ranges are one of those ways.

Why would every fighter have a 16 Con, have you never heard of the 3.5 fighter that needed to focus on Int for certain feats (or high Dex boy etc), or people that like to realize a character concept through point buy they just couldn't with rolling…ah, no, well once again it would seem you're looking for a fight – we've all told you about this.

Come on, please, don't make an enemy of your own future on these boards, if you know what I mean.

For the record, I think any method is fine as long as the group is happy.
Why would every fighter have a 16 Con, have you never heard of the 3.5 fighter that needed to focus on Int for certain feats (or high Dex boy etc), or people that like to realize a character concept through point buy they just couldn't with rolling…ah, no, well once again it would seem you're looking for a fight – we've all told you about this.

Come on, please, don't make an enemy of your own future on these boards, if you know what I mean.

For the record, I think any method is fine as long as the group is happy.

For the record, many of my fighters start with 13s and 14s (or 15s if I can afford it). The theory being that, I'll risk it until I can bump it up at 4th level where I have probably become attached to the character if, he makes it. In my experience in LG, I have probably seen as many 14 or 18 CONs as I do 16s on fighters. It really comes down to where you prioritize with your abilities.
Why would every fighter have a 16 Con, have you never heard of the 3.5 fighter that needed to focus on Int for certain feats (or high Dex boy etc), or people that like to realize a character concept through point buy they just couldn't with rolling…ah, no, well once again it would seem you're looking for a fight – we've all told you about this.

Come on, please, don't make an enemy of your own future on these boards, if you know what I mean.

For the record, I think any method is fine as long as the group is happy.

Are deliberately being dense? I gave a specific example to illustrate something about fixed hit points per level. That example required two fighters with an equal CON score. Nowhere did I even hint that all fighters would have a 16 CON. Then you go on to discuss stat buying as if I was discussing anything other than hit points. ROFL. Very nice.

As for your threat of being an enemy of mine. I really don't care one whit what you do. Especially since you seem to be incapable of understanding something as simple as an example.
For the record, many of my fighters start with 13s and 14s (or 15s if I can afford it). The theory being that, I'll risk it until I can bump it up at 4th level where I have probably become attached to the character if, he makes it. In my experience in LG, I have probably seen as many 14 or 18 CONs as I do 16s on fighters. It really comes down to where you prioritize with your abilities.

Definately. The thing is, the actual CON number for my example could have been 3 or 30. It wasn't about what the actual number is, only that for the purposes of my example, both fighters needed to have the same number. When I make a character, I place stats according to the character concept I have in mind. That said, even differing CON scores produce virtual hit point clones in 4ed. A 20th level fighter with a 14 CON will have 6 less hit points than a 20th level fighter with a 20 CON. That gap will be among the widest among 20th level fighters.
Definately. The thing is, the actual CON number for my example could have been 3 or 30. It wasn't about what the actual number is, only that for the purposes of my example, both fighters needed to have the same number. When I make a character, I place stats according to the character concept I have in mind. That said, even differing CON scores produce virtual hit point clones in 4ed. A 20th level fighter with a 14 CON will have 6 less hit points than a 20th level fighter with a 20 CON. That gap will be among the widest among 20th level fighters.

Your desire for "randomness" makes sense in a novel that has one main hero. The main character "rolled well" and his companions "rolled poorly." His companions can die off or share less (or none) of the limelight and it doesn't make any difference. The main character can even be higher level than his companions, making them even less significant.

In cooperative storytelling, though, having one character weaker than another just isn't fun. Most players like to have characters that are equivalent to their fellow players' characters. Some like to be more powerful (IMO, these are the major random-roller fans), but would get by with characters that were just equivalent to those of their fellow players. I realize that some people gain joy from the randomness of rolling hit points and ability scores, but the enjoyment is of the randomness, not the result. So for those of us who are more results-oriented, the static hit point and point buy default are probably about like the house rules we already implemented in our games.

I have been gaming a long time and have never come across clones using point buy and static hit points. I would venture to say that random rolling results in more clones, since you cannot guide the scores as appropriate for a character concept that you have in your head. Of course, my players tend to invest some thought in an interesting concept, and point buy accordingly.
Your desire for "randomness" makes sense in a novel that has one main hero. The main character "rolled well" and his companions "rolled poorly." His companions can die off or share less (or none) of the limelight and it doesn't make any difference. The main character can even be higher level than his companions, making them even less significant.

Not true. I already stated that a good way to do it is to allow a player to roll until he has greater than 50% on his die roll following a level where he rolled poorly. This prevents the problem of people with abnormally low hit point totals.

In cooperative storytelling, though, having one character weaker than another just isn't fun. Most players like to have characters that are equivalent to their fellow players' characters. Some like to be more powerful (IMO, these are the major random-roller fans), but would get by with characters that were just equivalent to those of their fellow players. I realize that some people gain joy from the randomness of rolling hit points and ability scores, but the enjoyment is of the randomness, not the result. So for those of us who are more results-oriented, the static hit point and point buy default are probably about like the house rules we already implemented in our games.

The difference between 73 and 87 hit points is not all that much in the scheme of things. Neither character is significantly weaker than the other, and in fact, the lower of the the two might be MUCH more powerful depending on the huge number of other factors that go into figuring out power.

I have been gaming a long time and have never come across clones using point buy and static hit points. I would venture to say that random rolling results in more clones, since you cannot guide the scores as appropriate for a character concept that you have in your head. Of course, my players tend to invest some thought in an interesting concept, and point buy accordingly.

You would be wrong. So long as you can place your stats, this almost never occurs.