Saves

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For the love of the gods someone please tell me that saves in 4th edition aren’t going to be like they were in Star Wars Saga,
Could you be a little more specific, I don't know exactly what you mean here.
...whatever
Sure, In Saga, they don't have saves, they have defense, which are static. Every level everyone’s defense goes up by 1, the only difference between the class is what you a get at first level. Also since they are static like AC the GM roles against your say, reflex defense when you are hit by an area affect.

I have three problems with this; first, at no point should a puddle of grease get an attack role. The grease just sits there, it not make an attempt to make the PC fall down. Second it gives the PC a distinctive feeling of not having any control. After a few level when you opponent get to make an full attack role, or skill check against your static save it quickly becomes a matter of it ALWAYS hits. And third it means that the difference between a fighters fort save at 10th level and a wizards fort save at 10th level would be only 2 at the most.
Sure, In Saga, they don't have saves, they have defense, which are static. Every level everyone’s defense goes up by 1, the only difference between the class is what you a get at first level. Also since they are static like AC the GM roles against your say, reflex defense when you are hit by an area affect.

I have three problems with this; first, at no point should a puddle of grease get an attack role. The grease just sits there, it not make an attempt to make the PC fall down. Second it gives the PC a distinctive feeling of not having any control. After a few level when you opponent get to make an full attack role, or skill check against your static save it quickly becomes a matter of it ALWAYS hits. And third it means that the difference between a fighters fort save at 10th level and a wizards fort save at 10th level would be only 2 at the most.

They have already stated that Reflex, Fortitude and Will are going to be static defenses, like Saga. They are going to go up 1 ever other level, unlike Saga. According to that system, the puddle of grease would get an attack roll, probably based on a fixed number. As for it ALWAYS hitting, attack rolls go up 1 every other level for all classes, so attacks and defenses rise at the same time. They also say they're going to put in less modifiers, so in theory there will be less ways to twink your attack roll to obscene levels. As for the difference in saves between lets say a Fighter and Wizard, there will be changes based on class features and talents, as well as ability scores, but I think in the end the differences will be less between the classes than in 3.5E.
...whatever
Damnit... Oh well I will still reserve judgment until I play the game. But I can tell you Static defense in Sage made made it not fun to play, then again you could also get a +10 on your use the force role at first level so force powers always worked. I guess if you cant get that kind of discrepancy between the check and defense it could work.
There is a section in the preview book that talks about the saves. There is a single level based mod that is applied to all attacks, Fort, Reflex, Will and skill checks. The example they give is at 10th level everyone will have a +5 bonus to AC, +5 to hit, +5 to Fort, Reflex, and Will saves. They also say there will be class abilities and feats to allow you to increase one save.
Damnit... Oh well I will still reserve judgment until I play the game. But I can tell you Static defense in Sage made made it not fun to play, then again you could also get a +10 on your use the force role at first level so force powers always worked. I guess if you cant get that kind of discrepancy between the check and defense it could work.

That was definitely a hole in the system. Having force powers run off of a skill you got +5 for being trained and one feat gave you another +5 really destroys low level games. But who am I to complain, since I'm the one playing the Jedi...

I would think they would avoid ways of giving yourself +10 to your attack rolls like that in 4E. In Star Wars, the Force is supposed to kick your ***. After all, the power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force.
...whatever
Damnit... Oh well I will still reserve judgment until I play the game. But I can tell you Static defense in Sage made made it not fun to play, then again you could also get a +10 on your use the force role at first level so force powers always worked. I guess if you cant get that kind of discrepancy between the check and defense it could work.

Remember, the flip side to this is now you get to roll for your spells affecting the enemy. I'm playing a beguiler in 3e right now, and while I like the class, I wish I actually had to roll a d20 for something besides skills.
Passive saves, and or passive spot rolls, etc..work more smoothly and only give the illusion to some players of a 'loss of control'

Really, If your Dm says "A Mighty Dragon swoops down from the sky"
or says "A bolt hisses by your head from a hidden trap" you have no real control. Both are just fine with me as long as the DM is using the rules, and being consistant, and keeping the game fun.

Consider that when you make a save yourself, it often gives away some hidden danger. If you are competeing with the DM something is wrong with the game.

True, it does make a player feel more in control when he rolls something, but its largely an illusion.

on a slightly different note,
I personally get annoyed when a DM does not really use AC, or saves at all, and just fudges most of the die rolls. Why have an AC or saving throw number at all if it means nothing?

I'll take a passive saving throw over 'Chaos DM' anyday. Unless the DM is awesome, then I can overlook it.
Damnit... Oh well I will still reserve judgment until I play the game. But I can tell you Static defense in Sage made made it not fun to play, then again you could also get a +10 on your use the force role at first level so force powers always worked. I guess if you cant get that kind of discrepancy between the check and defense it could work.

Not fun for you, perhaps, but I found it more elegant and much, much easier.

If you think about it, you don't have any more loss of control with a saving throw vs the DM rolling to hit your defense. Either way, it's one die roll that should be completely random. The only thing that changes is the hand throwing the die.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I'm actually looking forward to this system. The one thing I don't like is the AC increasing by level; I think this relegates armor to the role of colorful costume.

I don't buy the lack of control though. Sure they will be making fewer defensive rolls but they will be making more offensive rolls now.

As for the "always hits" issue, this won't be true either. Since AC and attack will increase at the same level, the chance to hit will remain the same given the same modifiers.

Now I am expecting that although saves and attacks will increase by the same rate for each class, there will be some class features that allow variation in these areas. I.e. a fighter will spend a feat to become trained in a weapon (+5 to hit) at a certain level and skill mastery (additional +5) at a higher level. A fighter would also get a bonus to his FORT save as a class feature and could spend a feat later on to increase it again (which a wizard couldn't do unless he took fighter training feat for example).
I do not think you need to worry about armor being unimportant. To make some gross assumptions, a suit of armor is likely to add about 10 to your ac.This could of course vary greatly, but lets call it 10 for now. If a level 30 character gets +15 AC, perhaps ending up with about a 30 ac total. I bet that 10 from the armor is all important, the difference between a 20 and a 30 ac might be huge once you are under serious attack. This is all speculation, but I am not seeing it as a bad thing that you get some ac from all those levels. It seems to make more sense than a level 30 character being defenseless. Must know how to dodge and parry by then I would hope.
I have three problems with this; first, at no point should a puddle of grease get an attack role. The grease just sits there, it not make an attempt to make the PC fall down.

...and in Saga, a puddle of grease WOULDN'T make an attack roll. It would just sit there, doing nothing. If a player tried to move through it, I'd make them roll an Acrobatics check (Acrobatics already includes balancing and moving swiftly through difficult terrain).
This is not a signature.
I like it mostly because it is consistent. Though I agree with the puddle thing. Puddle would give a balance check. But generally if we go with the
I make an active attack
your dodge is passive
with attack rolls for melee and ranged why not so for wizards?
I fireball you actively
you dodge passively
everyone wins? Rather than it being lobsided on number of die rolls. Woo hoo I say.
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