The 4E SKILL List - extrapolated from saga

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I sat down and did an assessment of the breakdown from Saga (and other posters and wotc hints) and made logical (hopefully) conclusions about what 4E will look like. IT SHOULD BE USABLE IN YOUR CAMPAIGN RIGHT NOW TO GET A FEEL FOR IT IF YOU WANT.


Acrobatics (tumble, balance)
Climb
Deception (bluff, disguise and lying with diplomacy)
Endurance/Concentration
Gather Information/Streetwise (gather info, knowledge local)
Initiative
Jump
Knowledge (all, appraise, decipher script..religion and history may be seperated out)
Mechanics (disable device, open locks, rope use)
Language
Perception (listen, spot, search, sense motive..may be called "insight" in 4E)
Persuasion (bluff (again), diplomacy (again), intimidate)
NEW: Profession (profession, craft, perform)
Ride (includes handle animal)
NEW: Sleight of Hand/Fingers (pick pocket, forgery)
Stealth (hide, move silently, escape artist)
Survival
Swim
Treat Injury/Heal
Use Magic Device (called "use computer" in saga)
Spellcraft (called "use the force" in saga..may be called "Arcana" in 4E)


Thoughts? Why would Climb, jump, swim be seperate skills if other ones have been combined? Is it because they just cant' think of a word to pull them together?

NOT USED: PILOT (from saga)

Jay Hs

Gamer Chiropractor - Hafner Chiropractic 305 S. Kipling st,Suite C-2, Lakewood, Co 80226 hafnerchiropractic.com

Why would Climb, jump, swim be seperate skills if other ones have been combined? Is it because they just cant' think of a word to pull them together?

Actually there are two considerably better reasons.

First, SWSE didn't do it.
Second, Climb, Jump and Swim may be all Strength skills, but they all require considerably different applications and types of knowledge to perform.
Sure, but they are all fitness-related abilities, which isn't a minor point.

And why not call them Athletics or something? Heck, even Fitness wouldn't be bad - except that a character could conceivably be out of shape over time, while you wouldn't lose skill points...
Wizo_the_Hutt (a.k.a. Gary "The Man" Sarli) had this to sayabout combining Athletics:
When looking at how talents, species abilities, etc., interact with skills, we generally took great interest in how useful that particular skill is by itself. (All skills are not created equal, no matter how much combining you do.) An extremely multifaceted skill like, say, Use Computer or Use the Force is very, very rarely going to have an unconditional modifier/reroll/etc. -- they will almost always be limited in some way (i.e. only when using a particular type of Force power, only when slicing computers, etc.). A very straightforward skill like Climb or Swim, though, is far more likely to get an across-the-board modifier/reroll/etc.

So, even though these skills may not be as interesting and attractive vis-a-vis other skills by themselves, we did try to come up with ways to make them more attractive in other ways.

Mechnically, I don't really mind that Climb, Jump, etc. is separated. One reason is that certain creatures (such as the gelatinous cube) can't jump or climb. I'd rather not have certain penalties or boosts popping up every now and then because something can't swim, but can perform all other assets of Athletics. Plus, the skill description would have to be pretty long, more than likely including a table, telling us, "You can roll for Athletics in this case, but not in this case."
What about having a Fly skill, and having all jumping fall within its domain? I mean, jumping is just a very basic form of flight after all. The ability to fly long distances could be just a high bonus to the skill. Likewise, the ability to make sharp turns while flying would be a use of the Acrobatics skill.

I wonder if this could be done with Burrow/Dig. High bonuses to Dig would equate to burrowing. I think treasure hunters and soldiers should have to dig at least as much as they have to swim, and probably far more often. Even sea pirates seem to do more digging than swimming, and they live on a boat. So if Dig is not a skill, then should Swim also be excluded from the skill list?
Emirikol, nice extrapolation.

Lets assume this is the 4e skill list. Rank the skills so each skill is better than the one below it. Heres my first pass at which ones I suspect would be better.


Way Broken Skill
Use Magic Device (called "use computer" in saga)
Acrobatics (tumble, balance)

Broken Skill
Initiative (?)
Spellcraft (called "use the force" in saga..may be called "Arcana" in 4E) (?)

Extremely Good Skill
Endurance/Concentration
Stealth (hide, move silently, escape artist)
Perception (listen, spot, search, sense motive..may be called "insight" in 4E)

Very Good Skill
Persuasion (bluff (again), diplomacy (again), intimidate)
Deception (bluff, disguise and lying with diplomacy)
Sleight of Hand/Fingers (pick pocket, forgery)

Good Skill (= 1 skill point)
Treat Injury/Heal (?)
Mechanics (disable device, open locks, rope use)
Gather Information/Streetwise (gather info, knowledge local)
Knowledge (all, appraise, decipher script..religion and history may be seperated out)
Climb

Mediocre Skill
Profession (profession, craft, perform) (?)
Ride (includes handle animal)
Survival

Substandard Skill
Swim

Very Substandard Skill
Jump
Language

If skills arent approximately equal in value, then they should cost different prices. For example, 1 rank in a 'way broken good' skill like Use Magic Device would be worth about 10 ranks in a 'very substandard' skill like Jump, or knowing about 10 languages.

A skill like Jump makes me laugh and cry. When I first saw the skill I had visions of leaping over canyons. When I read it, all it does is let one hop onto a table top. The 3e version of this skill is useless. (Utterly useless for mages.) I hope 4e makes the Jump skill superhuman, like Bionic Woman. Then it could be cool.

A skill like Spellcraft is too vital for a 3e Wizard to lack it, so it shouldnt be a 'skill' at all. It should just be a class power that levels. But perhaps the new 4e power system wont use the skill so much (only for rituals), making it more on par with other skill options?

Anyway if you feel, one the skills is out of order and you suspect it is better than one above it, mention the skill and which skill it should rank above. Then the list will be from better to worse.
Hal,

I'd agree with those assessments. Things like spellcraft..obviously...

It makes me wonder now if movement shouldn't also be made into a skill (thus allowing people to integrate more actions into their movement such as climbing without penalty). I hear you on jump and climb otherwise.

Some things just don't qualify as "skills." It seems with 3.5 the number of skills was only limited by how many they could fit on that side of the character record sheet..NO JOKE.

One other thing: i've always considered tumbe to be in the 'way broken skill' arena.

Jay
Colorado

Gamer Chiropractor - Hafner Chiropractic 305 S. Kipling st,Suite C-2, Lakewood, Co 80226 hafnerchiropractic.com

Standard value: 1 feat = skill competency bonus +5

Im under the impression, in 4e, skill abilities increase automatically while leveling. All classes use the same base skill bonus for any skill (similar to using the same BAB). On top of this base skill bonus, skills will either be trained or untrained. Trained skills have a standard +5 bonus. Probably feats can be used to further increase the skill bonus (perhaps another +5). The problem is, skills arent equal. Some are actually broken in their power, and others arent even worth the price of ink to print them. One way to express the difference in worth is to give them different prices. If one spends a feat, the feat will drastically increase the performance of a skill like swim, but only nudge a broken skill upward slightly.

1 feat = way broken good skill bonus +1
1 feat = broken good skill bonus +2
1 feat = extremely good skill bonus +3
1 feat = very good skill bonus +4
1 feat = skill bonus +5
1 feat = mediocre skill bonus +8
1 feat = substandard skill bonus + 12
1 feat = very substandard skill bonus +16
Emirikol: One other thing: i've always considered tumbe to be in the 'way broken skill' arena.

I can update the post above to relocate Tumble to 'way broken'. But if you could only have either 5 ranks in Tumble or 5 ranks in Use Magic Device, but not both, which would would you take? Are they truly equal?
Although that system would be logical, it would be easier if they just weakened the broken skills and strengthened or combined the weak "skills" (climb, jump, swim).

The old addage, you can't make the weak strong by making the strong weak is absolutely untrue in this situation. I think they will attempt to balance the game better.

It would be easier if swim wasn't a skill and they just assumed everyone could swim. Then when checks were required you could just make a strength check. Problem solved yes?

jh


Standard value: 1 feat = skill competency bonus +5

Im under the impression, in 4e, skill abilities increase automatically while leveling. All classes use the same base skill bonus for any skill (similar to using the same BAB). On top of this base skill bonus, skills will either be trained or untrained. Trained skills have a standard +5 bonus. Probably feats can be used to further increase the skill bonus (perhaps another +5). The problem is, skills arent equal. Some are actually broken in their power, and others arent even worth the price of ink to print them. One way to express the difference in worth is to give them different prices. If one spends a feat, the feat will drastically increase the performance of a skill like swim, but only nudge a broken skill upward slightly.

1 feat = way broken good skill bonus +1
1 feat = broken good skill bonus +2
1 feat = extremely good skill bonus +3
1 feat = very good skill bonus +4
1 feat = skill bonus +5
1 feat = mediocre skill bonus +6
1 feat = substandard skill bonus + 8
1 feat = very substandard skill bonus +10

Gamer Chiropractor - Hafner Chiropractic 305 S. Kipling st,Suite C-2, Lakewood, Co 80226 hafnerchiropractic.com

I can update the post above to relocate Tumble to 'way broken'. But if you could only have either 5 ranks in Tumble or 5 ranks in Use Magic Device, but not both, which would would you take? Are they truly equal?

Pretty much yes. Use magic device can be modulated. I don't believe Tumble can. There's no opposed check and you can do it in every..single..combat..all..day..long. (See how this has made me insane as a DM?

Yes, I would say that Tumble is less powerful than when a DM accidentally drops an overly powerful item into the hands of the "Magic-User of Use Magic" but from sheer volume, I think Tumble has it beat.

jh

Gamer Chiropractor - Hafner Chiropractic 305 S. Kipling st,Suite C-2, Lakewood, Co 80226 hafnerchiropractic.com

Aright. Updated Tumble to 'Way Broken' in the above list.

In another thread, you expressed hope that the catagory of 'cross-class' has been removed. I also hope it gets removed too.


Emirikol: Although that system would be logical, it would be easier if they just weakened the broken skills and strengthened or combined the weak "skills" (climb, jump, swim).

I feel acknowledging the different values of skills is fair, and helps players make informed choices for their characters. Even so, the Players Handbook must strive to narrow the distances between skill levels.

I strongly support the call for a Strength-skill called 'Athletics', that combines all 'sports' skills including Climb, Jump, Swim, and others. Athletics should also be able to Throw farther and Sprint faster. Perhaps the increase in standard distance can be a multiple of the skill check. Something like, running normally covers 4 x speed, but a Sprint check against DC 20 allows double running speed for a short-duration. Adding Sprint to Athletics would single handedly make it a very valuable skill. Perhaps 'Extremely Good' on par with Stealth and Perception?

By the way, when I reread the quote above from Wizo-the-Hut, I dont think he contradicts the request to combine skills like Climb-Swim, I think hes just saying that modifiers to such a skill is less likely to be conditional.
Emirikol: It makes me wonder now if movement shouldn't also be made into a skill (thus allowing people to integrate more actions into their movement such as climbing without penalty). I hear you on jump and climb otherwise.

O, I just reread this. Did you mean a single skill called 'Movement' or whatever, that focuses on various methods of locomotion, sort of like a triathelon? Swim, Tree-brachiation, Sprint, Climb, moving thru entanglement, caltrops, etc? Not a bad idea. I dont know if it can increase base speed, but there shouldnt be a problem with maintaining base speed during some kind of obstacle course. Increasing Sprinting speed (because it expends the standard action) shouldnt be a problem either.

A while back developers were getting annoyed with fast move rates and wanted to clamp down on it. You can see the nerfing of base speeds in the 3.5 Psionic Handbook. However, 4e devs may have changed the philosophy and want to free up movement. They even want to increase the frequency of short-range teleportation, so I assume faster base speeds seem to be acceptable again?

It would be easier if swim wasn't a skill and they just assumed everyone could swim.

I agree. Every *adventurer* is assumed to be literate, and the exceptions to the rule (traditionally Barbarian) are the ones that need to be noted. In the same way, it can be assumed that every *adventurer* already knows the basics of how to swim, and therefore can at least attempt an untrained skill check. (Even Dwarves know how to swim in subterranean aquifers.) Any adventurer who didnt know how to swim would be the exception to the rule, and it would have to be noted.
Just curious. Why is swim considered a weak skill?



Anyway, I don't feel that jump, swim, and climb should be combined. Being a good at jumping doesn't really have any impact on whether or not I can swim.
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How the hell is Jump and Swim a weak skill.
Wellllll... Jump and Swim and extremely situational and rarely give you a lot of bang for your buck, considering the use you can get out of skill points elsewhere.

And unless you get a specific adventure tailored to those two skills, they're some of the skills with the least RP potential.

But then again, you may be playing a Summer Olympic Games campaign.
A skill like Jump makes me laugh and cry. When I first saw the skill I had visions of leaping over canyons. When I read it, all it does is let one hop onto a table top. The 3e version of this skill is useless. (Utterly useless for mages.) I hope 4e makes the Jump skill superhuman, like Bionic Woman. Then it could be cool.

I agree. I think a lot of skills like that would be helped by taking the Epic rules for the skills and putting them into core, and lowering the DC's across the board. Especially if spellcasting in 4e is anything like 3e, where low level spells like Invisibility, Levitate, and Spider Climb are far better than even Epic levels of Hide, Jump, and Climb. D&D's full of super-heroic people doing over-the-top stunts, so I think a decently high Jump skill should let you leap down from a three story building or triangle jump up rain-slick walls like a ninja. Someone with high climb should be able to replicate Spider Climb, and should be able to cling to ceilings and do the trick where they run straight up a wall like a ninja. Ninja, I say! Rogues should be the ones who get the ninja tricks, not 3rd level wizards!
Makeshiftwings: I agree. A lot of skills like that would be helped by taking the Epic rules for the skills, putting them into core, and lowering the DC's across the board. Especially if spellcasting in 4e is anything like 3e, where low level spells like Invisibility, Levitate, and Spider Climb are far better than even Epic levels of Hide, Jump, and Climb.

Rightbackatcha, I agree.

Epic skill rules made core with DCs that are comparable to equivalent spells. Especially in 4e, the 'Martial' power source justifies the superhuman feats that skills can achieve. And wev all seen enough Kung Fu movies (Wuxia genre, including The Matrix), we can imagine these feats as normal for moderate-level heroes.
I guess slight of hand and forgery are uses of the deception skill.

I wouldn't mind if climb/swim/jump are put together in an athletics skill.

One problem is that a lot of the SWSE names sound too Sci Fi for me.

I would rather call Perception Awareness, Stealth Sneak and so on.
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O, I just reread this. Did you mean a single skill called 'Movement' or whatever, that focuses on various methods of locomotion, sort of like a triathelon? Swim, Tree-brachiation, Sprint, Climb, moving thru entanglement, caltrops, etc? Not a bad idea. I dont know if it can increase base speed, but there shouldnt be a problem with maintaining base speed during some kind of obstacle course. Increasing Sprinting speed (because it expends the standard action) shouldnt be a problem either.

A single skill called 'Movement'? That sounds like an excellent idea. Difficulty could be based on degrees or types of difficult terrain (roll this to preserve your movement), and to keep things like jump/fly/swim/climb etc. separate, perhaps include *that* in the creature's description instead of in the skill description. So jumping 4 squares or climbing 4 squares would equal a skill check negating 4 squares of difficult terrain, whether that be a chasm or a rock face.

I might try this as a house-rule when 4e comes out, if something like this doesn't get included.
As a house rule for SAGA, my group made Climb, Jump, and Swim into one Skill, called Athletics. I don't know why the designers didn't do it themselves.


I hope the 4E Skill List will look something like this:


Acrobatics
Athletics
Stealth
Perception
Endurance
Arcane (Spellcraft + Knowledge: Arcana)
Deception
Persuasion
Initiative
Larceny (Open Locks + Sleight of Hand)
Streetwise (Gather Info + Knowledge: Local)
Religion
History
We are running a campaign we are varianted out of control but we do use the saga skill list wel sort of some of it was fit in. It elimanated a lot of skills from srd. we gain the skils as saga gave them and per class gaining 1 additional point at each even level.

acobatics, athletics (swim, climb, & jump are all apart of common training in military, or general physical education), autohypnosis, apraise, concentration, craft, deception, decipher script, disguise (i feel it is too important to combine), Endurance, forgery, handle animal, heal, inititative, know (arcana, dungeoneering, geography, history, nature, nobility, planes, psionics, religion), martial lore, mechcanics, perception, perform, persuasion, psionic craft, ride, sleight of hand, stealth, speak language, spell craft, survival, use magic device, use psionic device
Knowledge skills *must* be kept seperate for D&D.
There's a huge difference between fantasy and sci-fi.
There's no Internet in Faerun, for example ;)

This means, that knowledge is a rare and precious commodity. Thus, the skills must be seperate, and uncommon. Wizards and sages are "learned respected folK" feared as much for their knowledge, as their magic!

Joe the Butcher in Waterdeep cannot go learn about, oh, metallurgy (weaponsmithing), chemistry (alchemy) etc except by going and training with a teacher, usually who do not reveal their secrets to non-guild members or apprentices.
So craft skills too nee do tbe kept to an extent,s eperate.
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I mentioned this on the "post your house rules" thread, but it can be revisited here.

I added a movement skill to the list - Run.

I had a problem with the fact that “Climb Speed” and “Swim Speed” had corollary “Swim and Climb” skills. Once long ago I played around with using a 30’ Swim Speed rating as a +30 racial bonus to Swim checks instead. I liked it. It grew … into the Run Skill. Basically it works like this.

Each movement mode has a skill associated with it. Those skills work in this way, and only in this way:

As a full move action you may declare an amount of movement that you want to achieve on your action. Reduce the total distance you are attempting to move by the correct speed (for a double move). The remainder is the DC of the movement check. Success results in you moving the declared distance in a single full move action. Failure results in you moving your base movement (single move) and falling prone unless you make a Reflex save of DC 15.

The Run skill … gets plenty of “leg work” (oohh giggle), but Swim is still hardly ever used.

While my realist is loath to acquiesce that Run, Swim, and Climb should be reduced to a single skill I have to agree with the “game balance” issues involved in having a skill (like Swim) that is either used every session (water based games) or once a campaign (the rest of the time). A single Athletics skill – would resolve that.

And really why is there a balance skill? Shouldn’t that be a reflex save?

That said … I would still separate “Athletics (basic run, swim, climb)” from Acrobatics. Tumble is an amazing skill, both tactical and rewarding (as a performance). I believe there is room to keep “basic athletics” and “advanced acrobatics” separate. In this way,

Athletics could cover what where talking about in the sense of “extended moves” or “climbing while fighting” and etc features of jump, climb, (cough) run, and swim. Athletics would be a “universal class skill” like Profession and craft, whereas Acrobatics would have all the “kip up” and “evade AoO” and “etc zaniness” and it could also be used as Athletics. Acrobatics could be trained only, and on a select few class skill lists.


Another skill house rule – the Intelligence skills… mmmm… I rarely request a knowledge skill be rolled. I treat them almost more like feats and class abilities than as “skills” … particularly I give bonuses to other skill checks when you have the appropriate KS. Knowledge should be power. In my games it’s a +1 to damage trolls when you have 5 ranks on KS:Troll.
Is it me or is skill use nothing but a vestigal appendige now? Magic and combat are well tied together, but what are skills for? Will classes still use invisability instead of hide? Locate spells instead of gather information?

I'm hoping the skill tricks where a 'tester' for 4th edition. Weak though they where, they at least made skills relevant.
Is it me or is skill use nothing but a vestigal appendige now? Magic and combat are well tied together, but what are skills for? Will classes still use invisability instead of hide? Locate spells instead of gather information?

I'm hoping the skill tricks where a 'tester' for 4th edition. Weak though they where, they at least made skills relevant.

I've always found skills to be highly important. To be fair, rogue is my most-played class, but even still I find the skills to be game-changers.

Let's take your two examples: Invisibility and Locate spells. First, Hide can sometimes be better than Invisibility, as there's no See Hidden Character spell-- just Spot (which most fighters, wizards and clerics are woefully lacking). Once, I had a rogue cause so much trouble with a Hide in Plain Sight ability that an enemy actually did cast See Invisibility, thus wasting his turn (I have a good DM).
The Locate spells touch a much larger issue. Anytime your spellcaster memorizes a spell that duplicates a skill, he isn't memorizing other, more important spells. Let the Half-elf bard roll Gather Info-- save your spell slot for Wall of Iron or Restoration. I know that memorized slots are going away, but I'll bet that skills will still be very useful.
The biggest problem with skills, including movement skills, is that they are all dealt with in an adhoc manner. Consider Speak Language. Unlike all other skills, you never even roll for a Speak Language check; it's just a count of how many languages you've perfected. No wait, it's a measure of how many spoken languages you've perfected; we can't forget Decipher Script. Ah, but even then, there's Sense Motive to consider, which is like Speak Language for nonverbal communication. This is completely ridiculous!

Movement is not any better than Speak Language. For run or walk, you don't even make a check. But then even Jump is a separate skill. Tell me, who can run but can't jump? Then there's Climb and Swim. And then there's Fly.

There's nothing weird about movement or language proficiency compared to other important skills. All skills are situationally dependent. So what do you say about a skill system that stutters in the face of situational dependency? Well, maybe it's time to admit that the skill system is fundamentally broken. The time spent rearranging skills between editions could be better spent envisioning a completely new skill system.
Sure, but they are all fitness-related abilities, which isn't a minor point.

And why not call them Athletics or something? Heck, even Fitness wouldn't be bad - except that a character could conceivably be out of shape over time, while you wouldn't lose skill points...

While all are somewhat athletic, each of these abilities is significantly distinguished from the others. One does not need to be particularly strong to climb, just very dexterous and flexible. Someone of very light build, but wiry (thin and tight) can actually climb better than a larger fellow. Likewise, the primary ability of a swimmer is endurance, not raw strength or even dexterity. Jumping is a combination of dexterity and raw strength, with no real endurance component.

If a party needs a climber, a skinny, wiry rogue should get the job. For swimming, the party member with the greatest endurance and least gear wins. For jumping, the ranger would be best, as he has some of the dexterity of the rogue as well as great leg strength and a good sense for the arc and range of projectiles (which he becomes as he jumps across the
chasm).

Also, consider this: I have a ruined hamstring tendon. I get around fine, but can't run or jump... I can swim well enough. Even so, I am actually in good shape (could be better) due to having to do physical therapy exercises. Being "fit" does not imply the capacity to do such a variety of physical feats.

Physical feats that have completely different ability requirements should not be lumped together for any purpose beyond making them easier to look up.

mdono
While all are somewhat athletic, each of these abilities is significantly distinguished from the others. One does not need to be particularly strong to climb, just very dexterous and flexible. Someone of very light build, but wiry (thin and tight) can actually climb better than a larger fellow. Likewise, the primary ability of a swimmer is endurance, not raw strength or even dexterity. Jumping is a combination of dexterity and raw strength, with no real endurance component.

If a party needs a climber, a skinny, wiry rogue should get the job. For swimming, the party member with the greatest endurance and least gear wins. For jumping, the ranger would be best, as he has some of the dexterity of the rogue as well as great leg strength and a good sense for the arc and range of projectiles (which he becomes as he jumps across the
chasm).

Also, consider this: I have a ruined hamstring tendon. I get around fine, but can't run or jump... I can swim well enough. Even so, I am actually in good shape (could be better) due to having to do physical therapy exercises. Being "fit" does not imply the capacity to do such a variety of physical feats.

Physical feats that have completely different ability requirements should not be lumped together for any purpose beyond making them easier to look up.

mdono

No, you're right. Those skills aren't the same, but I have to say that they are way too much of a skill point hog to keep up if you want a fit character.

Your situation is a bit special, too, you have to admit. In D&D that ruined tendon - which I'm sorry to hear about, by the way - would be healed by whatever healing spell gets you up to max HP. Sad to say, the system doesn't deal with that sort of thing.

In my opinion, having read the whole thread so far, I would say that having a "Movement" skill is one of the best ideas I've read in a while. It makes sense for the various modes of self-locomotion, though they rely on very different abilities, as you said.

Burrytar hit on a very important point, though: Speak Language is no less illogical in its use than the Movement skill would be. I for one don't think we should scrap skills altogether, especially since the Saga system seems to me a great step in the right direction.
As a house rule for SAGA, my group made Climb, Jump, and Swim into one Skill, called Athletics. I don't know why the designers didn't do it themselves.

Those three skills are inherently different in muscle memory.


The point on the skills taking up to many resources has less to do with them needing to be rolled together and more to do with 2+Int skill points is too few for any class.
The biggest problem with skills, including movement skills, is that they are all dealt with in an adhoc manner. Consider Speak Language. Unlike all other skills, you never even roll for a Speak Language check; it's just a count of how many languages you've perfected. No wait, it's a measure of how many spoken languages you've perfected; we can't forget Decipher Script. Ah, but even then, there's Sense Motive to consider, which is like Speak Language for nonverbal communication. This is completely ridiculous!

Movement is not any better than Speak Language. For run or walk, you don't even make a check. But then even Jump is a separate skill. Tell me, who can run but can't jump? Then there's Climb and Swim. And then there's Fly.

There's nothing weird about movement or language proficiency compared to other important skills. All skills are situationally dependent. So what do you say about a skill system that stutters in the face of situational dependency? Well, maybe it's time to admit that the skill system is fundamentally broken. The time spent rearranging skills between editions could be better spent envisioning a completely new skill system.

True - not to mention that skills become superseded by magic very quickly. Really a rogue should just have 'martial' spells equivalent to teleport, locate, invisibility and so on. Its just like skills but without the anachronistic desire to keep the class realistic (an unnecessary punishment).
I think this discussion is getting lost in coercing the rules to fit gaming simplicity and balance and losing sight of the fact that these are SKILLS. Read 'Playing the Moldovans at Tennis, by Tony Hawks', being athletic does not mean someone is good at any sport or all athletic abilities. These are Skills! They require effort to master the techniques, if you have not paid attention at swim school (i.e. spent the points) then you deserve to be penalised when you reach the flooded section of the cave.
I, for one, hope the rules do not get so dumbed down that I end up playing Munchkin and cannot make the players have to work for their rewards.
True - not to mention that skills become superseded by magic very quickly. Really a rogue should just have 'martial' spells equivalent to teleport, locate, invisibility and so on. Its just like skills but without the anachronistic desire to keep the class realistic (an unnecessary punishment).

No, if they have magic powers they're not rogues anymore, look, a rogue can gain concealment without having yo be "invisible" in fact you can already do it in 3rd, and a rogue can move across the battlefield without being attacked without having to "teleport" it's called "tumbling", it's perfectly possible to make rogues balanced with spellcasters, you just have to limit spellcasters from being an automatic win button, and give higher level martial characters abilities like Beowolf or Riddick as opposed to Sam Gamgee.
Wah, wah, wah. this is broken, that is broken. how can something be broken on speculation. another thing a generalized skill list is easier and makes sense. 3ed was to complex, not confusing. not everything should be based on a d20. generally I see fighters as being athletic and know how to swim, as an american soldier, marine, seamen generally do, is it really munchkin. i hope the posters of these forums are mostly farmers and the evil creatures attack and they dont survive, while the munchkiners win and live. long live the future of D&D 4ed and power gamers, minmaxer, and munckin gamers
Those three skills are inherently different in muscle memory.


The point on the skills taking up to many resources has less to do with them needing to be rolled together and more to do with 2+Int skill points is too few for any class.

Yeah, I agree, which is why we also give every class 2 extra skill points per level.

Those three skills are different, but when Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery are already bundled into Deception, I think you can fudge Climb, Jump, and Swim into one skill.
For those of us who aren't hack-and-slash "role" players, it's sad to see speak language, craft, profession, perform and most knowledge skills get thrown out the window. Those are the skills that really add depth to a character. Being the best airship captain with profession (sailor), creating mad alchemical concoctions with craft (alchemy), figuring out who in your party would have to be the front man for talking with the goblins, even if his charisma was down in crapper, since he was the only one who spoke goblin... Those are good skills to have in the game. just because they don't have a challenge rating associated with them doesn't mean they aren't valuable for fleshing out character. I really hope we don't lose the flexibility of 3rd...even if it means a little math.
... figuring out who in your party would have to be the front man for talking with the goblins, even if his charisma was down in crapper, since he was the only one who spoke goblin... Those are good skills to have in the game.

You know, this brings up another point: I always thought it was nonsensical how players naturally spoke so many languages...

Don't get wrong, I'm not trying to complicate matters by having characters go through a complex character design process to learn languages, but I think it's too much of a second thought as it is now.

Having a character who speaks Goblin should be exceptional and special. It's not as though it were considered a civilized language by non-monstrous humanoids, after all.

If they're using the Saga skill system, I would suggest that in order to speak (Int bonus) number of languages, characters have to give up a trained skill, or something. I'm sure they could figure out bonuses to grant for that so it becomes worthwhile...
No, if they have magic powers they're not rogues anymore, look, a rogue can gain concealment without having yo be "invisible" in fact you can already do it in 3rd, and a rogue can move across the battlefield without being attacked without having to "teleport" it's called "tumbling", it's perfectly possible to make rogues balanced with spellcasters, you just have to limit spellcasters from being an automatic win button, and give higher level martial characters abilities like Beowolf or Riddick as opposed to Sam Gamgee.

This is just splitting hairs though;) . Whether tumbling rogues become so skilled as to be as good as teleporting, or magic spells like teleport become so fair power wise as to be effectively no more than tumbling, the result is the same. Hopefully the later at early levels, and first at late levels.

For those of us who aren't hack-and-slash "role" players, it's sad to see speak language, craft, profession, perform and most knowledge skills get thrown out the window. Those are the skills that really add depth to a character. Being the best airship captain with profession (sailor), creating mad alchemical concoctions with craft (alchemy), figuring out who in your party would have to be the front man for talking with the goblins, even if his charisma was down in crapper, since he was the only one who spoke goblin... Those are good skills to have in the game. just because they don't have a challenge rating associated with them doesn't mean they aren't valuable for fleshing out character. I really hope we don't lose the flexibility of 3rd...even if it means a little math.

I agree, but this free forum cathullu game type part - is at odds with the skirmish wargame part. You can't just have both without tying the two together.
This means, that knowledge is a rare and precious commodity. Thus, the skills must be seperate, and uncommon. Wizards and sages are "learned respected folK" feared as much for their knowledge, as their magic!

Joe the Butcher in Waterdeep cannot go learn about, oh, metallurgy (weaponsmithing), chemistry (alchemy) etc except by going and training with a teacher, usually who do not reveal their secrets to non-guild members or apprentices.

Actually, I think it's exactly the opposite. Specialization of knowledge is more a modern thing. In the past, the body of knowledge was much smaller, and "learned men" generally dabbled in everything. The middle ages did not have chemists, biologists, physicists, philosophers, historians, etc. They just had "sages" or "wise men" who knew a little bit of everything.

However, it doesn't really matter; it sounds like "Knowledge" will not be a skill at all anymore. I think this article contains some 4e skill names. Instead of Knowledge(Religion) and Knowledge(History), there's just Religion and History. I think most of the former nonsensical division between a knowledge skill and an applied knowledge skill will be gone. So instead of both Knowledge(Nature) and Survival, there is just Survival, which includes both knowledge and how to apply that knowledge. Instead of Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft, there's just Spellcraft, which includes both knowledge of arcana and how to apply that knowledge.
I agree, but this free forum cathullu game type part - is at odds with the skirmish wargame part. You can't just have both without tying the two together.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here... that you can't have hack and slash and good roleplaying? you certainly can, it simply requires intelligence, flexibility and creativity. But I think I'm not understanding your point
Makeshiftwings: Instead of Knowledge(Religion) and Knowledge(History), there's just Religion and History.

Good catch.