4e and Epic

19 posts / 0 new
Last post
Alright, I'm really digging this till lv30 stuff they're doing with 4e. That makes epic directly core. But however, could this mean they're destroying epic? I've come under the impression that there's going to be no supportable ruleset for post 30 rules and no real availability for guesswork. When I first got 3e PHB, DMG, and MM I could through guesswork craft level 21+ adventures, that is until I got the Epic Level Handbook which helped me even further. Will this even be possible now? Will there be any rules supporting the post 30 rules, such as the guidelines in 3.5 for post 20 play? If not I will be saddly disapointed, as my homebrew campaign is centered around the concept that post 20+ play and even post 40+ play is not necessarily uncommon in parts of the setting.
We don't have much to go on, but my guess is that "Epic" doesn't conceptually exist as a departure from the normal advancement rules like it does in 3.x edition. Thus, above level 20 characters will continue to advance in a logical manner that may lend itself to easy post-30 extrapolations...

But that is all conjecture based on nothing more than intuitions about the scant 4E tablescraps they've tossed us.
At least I have my proper avatar now, I guess. But man is this cloud dark.
Mmm... from what has been mentioned I got the opposite idea that post 30 won't be easily homebrewable, and I'm guessing by the tradition of 3.5 that no ELH will be produced in fear of "unbalance" especialy with everything being "core" now. I guess we have to wait and see.
I think they might want to make epic level progression more 'natural', but still above any beyond the expert adventurer. In 3e the epic feats were tacked on and didn't seem organic or thought out. If they make level 30 part of the character's progression, they can plan for it. I do not see why anyone would ever need to go beyond 30, ten epic levels should be enough to complete your pc, no? This has the potential to include rules to complete your pc fully in terms of extremely high levels in the PHB1. I always thought it was a jip that the normal handbook didn't really provide the full level experience for a character.
I feel quite certain that post 30 rules will eventually be released. With the notion of 1 PHB, 1 DMG, & 1 MM coming out every year; I'm just bracing myself for "the year of legends" (or whatever they choose to call the year of all post 30 material).
The reason I think post 30 is coming, eventually, is that many of the save-or-die and gamebreaking spells are being removed or powered down. This makes it far more likely that post 30 heroes (and monsters/villains) can coexist with a predominantly "10 or less" game world.
Other reasons can also be found if you look hard enough. The removal of iterate attacks means there won't have to be a separate attack bonus just for post 30 or epic-level players (the same may be true of the saves if they use the SWSE rule of "heroic level +").
The limiting of the "x-mas tree effect" means characters won't need epic magic items just to get by. In all likelihood, this will also result in doing away with DR #/Epic. This means that post 30 monsters may even be beatable or survivable for characters from lvl 20 onward (which certainly seems to fit with their idea of keeping monsters around for more levels of play).
Even the incantaions/epic-level spells will likely remain, though an epic 4e wizard may need to be a higher level to cast an epic spell available to an epic 3.5 wizard.
Just my 2 cents. Can't wait to see what post-30 talent trees look like though.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I figure they will need a post 30 rule set eventually. For the simple reason that if there is a party of 25th level characters floating around, then the master villain will have to be even higher.

That was the real function of the Epic Level handbook after all. Helping DMs write up high level NPCs. That the rules let you play characters of that level was an after thought.

Jay
If we're real lucky, maybe they'll hard-cap mortal advancement and post-30 will be the road to Immortality and Divine Advancement. :D
At least I have my proper avatar now, I guess. But man is this cloud dark.
Alright, I'm really digging this till lv30 stuff they're doing with 4e. That makes epic directly core. But however, could this mean they're destroying epic? I've come under the impression that there's going to be no supportable ruleset for post 30 rules and no real availability for guesswork. When I first got 3e PHB, DMG, and MM I could through guesswork craft level 21+ adventures, that is until I got the Epic Level Handbook which helped me even further. Will this even be possible now? Will there be any rules supporting the post 30 rules, such as the guidelines in 3.5 for post 20 play? If not I will be saddly disapointed, as my homebrew campaign is centered around the concept that post 20+ play and even post 40+ play is not necessarily uncommon in parts of the setting.

I guess you and I are thinking in the same area there thasis. I just wish I caught your thread before I started mine. :D
So many people have a hate for epic saying it's uncessary, but in all actuality much of D&D isn't "necessary" it's just fun for niche campaigns, and my campaign has a lot of these niche content, including epic. I'm glad there's support here on the forums though, cause epic really is the bomb.
So many people have a hate for epic saying it's uncessary, but in all actuality much of D&D isn't "necessary" it's just fun for niche campaigns, and my campaign has a lot of these niche content, including epic. I'm glad there's support here on the forums though, cause epic really is the bomb.

It can be quite enjoyable. I just hope it doesn't become a nightmare of paperwork. *shudders at the thought of Rolemaster style tables*
So many people have a hate for epic saying it's uncessary, but in all actuality much of D&D isn't "necessary" it's just fun for niche campaigns, and my campaign has a lot of these niche content, including epic. I'm glad there's support here on the forums though, cause epic really is the bomb.

I only hate epic because the 3.5 rules for it were so, so bad.

I love the concept, however. If I ever DMd a game that legitimately got to 30 in 4E, I would most definitely continue it. Even if the PCs killed all the gods, if they wanted to continue, I'd think up something. Maybe morph the cosmology so that the gods are really just ants in a vast universe of uber-powerful beings, and then entire new possibilities open up.
I only hate epic because the 3.5 rules for it were so, so bad.

Yeah, when I think of the Epic rules…I throw up in my mouth a little bit.

I don't care if they ever make rules for progressing past 30th level, as in my 20 years of playing this bizarre game, I have yet to DM or play in a campaign above level 15 or so.
I'm not terribly certain that we'll feel the need for post-30 rules like we do in 3rd edition D&D. My understanding is that the epic tier of play (21-30) is intended to give the feel of an epic campaign.

It's not so much that I think it'll be unnecessary, just that I'm guessing that it will already be taken care of.
If we're real lucky, maybe they'll hard-cap mortal advancement and post-30 will be the road to Immortality and Divine Advancement. :D

Ie, the old "How to be a god" out of OD&D? Oh hELLLLLLS Yes.
Here is my question, seeing that 4th Ed will take character advancement to level 30, are levels 20+ still considered "epic" or is it all considered normal levels till 30 now?
Here is my question, seeing that 4th Ed will take character advancement to level 30, are levels 20+ still considered "epic" or is it all considered normal levels till 30 now?

The analogy I believe I read was Levels 4-14 in 3E = 1-20 in 4E, 17 to Epic in 3E = 21-30 in 4E.
Here is my question, seeing that 4th Ed will take character advancement to level 30, are levels 20+ still considered "epic" or is it all considered normal levels till 30 now?

1-10: "Heroic"
11-20: "Paragon"
21-30: "Epic"
At the live announcement the presenter used the words, "The first five levels of epic play are in the core rulebook." The impression my group got was that epic play will still exist but is even more supported than now. This is also where a lot of the level 25 speculation is coming from along with some other sources.
I only hate epic because the 3.5 rules for it were so, so bad.

I love the concept, however. If I ever DMd a game that legitimately got to 30 in 4E, I would most definitely continue it. Even if the PCs killed all the gods, if they wanted to continue, I'd think up something. Maybe morph the cosmology so that the gods are really just ants in a vast universe of uber-powerful beings, and then entire new possibilities open up.

Part of my concept for my "primary" campaign I'm developing is based around this actualy. There are diffrent teirs of power, and the deities that we worship have deities their own that they worship, and to them they would be considered mortals in power. This is another good reason why post 30 levels for me are mandatory for my campaigns, more for development of the world then players actualy playing in post 30.

Of course, I do play post 30 on occasion. One of the major NPC's of a region, which is a popular location (similiar to that of Waterdeep in attractibility), is an old character that reached lv46. There is also the occasion, where one of the deities in my campaign, is a characters old character that we played in a marathon (solo campaign) and got to level 96. So post 30 is not only effecting my world, but the instances where I do enjoy playing or running a campaign with characters post 30.

There is also the situation that has recently come to my thoughts, that getting to level 30 will take just as long as to get to level 20 in 3e. Now if that's true, that means the epic will be even more of a must, because characters in my campaigns tend to get to level 20 or higher in a reasonable amount of time, in comparison to the "years of playing" that some campaigns go by to reach level 20.
Sign In to post comments