Some clues in Dungeon's "Blood Road" on 4e skills... More?

20 posts / 0 new
Last post
In Blood Road, we see Knowledge (History) mentioned to get to the bottom of whatever plot the PCs encounter in the DND Adventure Hook (renamed as "Role vs. Roll").

In addition we see two others:

Knowledge (Streetwise).

This isn't a far cry different from Knowledge (Local) and/or Gather Information in 3.5 ... or Knowledge (Streetwise) in d20 Modern for that matter.

Insight.

I'm not sure what's happening here. I had considered this to fit under "Perception," which in Star Wars SECR is a collection of Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.

Has anyone seen a complete list of 4e skills? Has anyone seen any more feedback on 4e skills. And what is this with Insight?
Also, in the Spined Devil stats it has Perception +5 and Spot +10…?
Umm Blood Road isn't 4E, so the skills are just regular knowledges and such that we use in 3rd ed.
Umm Blood Road isn't 4E, so the skills are just regular knowledges and such that we use in 3rd ed.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=211234
And? so someone over there mistook it for a 4e adventure as well? Nothing from Wizards in that thread. It's a 3rd ed adventure, it just is sorry, I would love it to be 4e but its obviously not, it is written so that the character info could be used in any game or edition but the specific knowledges and such are all in line with 3rd ed.
You're both wrong! :P
This is one of the "edition neutral" products that they'll be releasing until 4E is out. They want us to be able to use it with 3.x. But, come on, the vampire has Warlock levels. This is written with 4E in mind. I know 3.x has a Warlock too, but that's what makes it neutral.

I do suspect that Streetwise and Insight will be 4E skills, but I'm not sure. Maybe it's something ELSE, so that they don't have to refer to a specific skill names.
And? so someone over there mistook it for a 4e adventure as well? Nothing from Wizards in that thread. It's a 3rd ed adventure, it just is sorry, I would love it to be 4e but its obviously not, it is written so that the character info could be used in any game or edition but the specific knowledges and such are all in line with 3rd ed.

But that doesn't explain the references to Insight or Streetwise rolls. I think they're trying to make it both a 3.5 and 4 ed. adventure, but there's definitely a couple hints in there.
It looks like Perception will be a general skill which miight be sub-divided into listen, spot, and search. When you train for your +5, you pick one of the sub-categories perhaps. Insight could be... sense motive and...? Knowledge skills will likely remain trained skills as before.
My guess is that Spot and such really are rolled up into Perception as a single skill, but some creatures can have different rolls for each depending on whether they have great eyesight or whatnot. So it simplifies things for most creatures, but some like the Spined Devil use a separate roll for Spot because it is specifically listed.

I don't think I would call "Streetwise" a Knowledge skill specifically. None of these were listed with Knowledge in front of them. Clever, because it allows the designers to extend the usage of the skill. It doesn't just reflect your knowledge of the topic, but also your ability to actually perform related tasks. Streetwise, for instance, could fulfill Gather Information and Knowledge (local) [excluding humanoid knowledge], and I wouldn't really be surprised if it can also be used in place of Diplomacy when chatting up ruffians or street urchins or the like.
I suspect that "Insight" might be a feature of the advanced "social mechanics".
Umm Blood Road isn't 4E, so the skills are just regular knowledges and such that we use in 3rd ed.

Except that neither "Insight" nor "Knowledge (Streetwise)" is a 3.5 skill.
Geez, people. There's no 'knowledge' in front of either History, Religion, or Streetwise as skills. Good riddance.
Geez, people. There's no 'knowledge' in front of either History, Religion, or Streetwise as skills. Good riddance.

Point taken. I am assuming that those are Knowledge skills.
What if +5 Perception in 4e is roughly equivalent to +10 Spot/Listen in 3e?
Point taken. I am assuming that those are Knowledge skills.

And many of us are glad that it's not there. Streetwise is a much better name for a skill than "Knowledge (Streetwise)."
And many of us are glad that it's not there. Streetwise is a much better name for a skill than "Knowledge (Streetwise)."

Big question - how often do people actually make knowledge checks in their campaign?

As for me, hardly ever. I'd say Knowledge (arcana), but Spellcraft seems more hand. Same with Knowledge (nature), with Survival seeming more handy.

Maybe 4e will make Knowledge one skill with variances from untrained to trained and get rid of all the subsets.

Thoughts?
Big question - how often do people actually make knowledge checks in their campaign?

5-10 times a session as a player, and my PC's do 2-5 times a session. It is the best way, short of magic, to identify people/places/things. Runes that are not part of a language? Knowledge [History] to try and 1) figure out what group used the runes and 2) what they could possibly mean. Knowledges are also great to figure out what type of creature or humanoid built something, which social groups are which, and the significance of other symbols.

Knowledges aren't just for identifying the type of creature.

My current PC (when I play) has ranks in the following knowledges: Arcana, Architecture and Engineering, History, Religion, Undead, Planes. And I use them all almost every session, repeatedly. It helps that I have a small library in my bag of holding. ;)
Insight.

I'm not sure what's happening here. I had considered this to fit under "Perception," which in Star Wars SECR is a collection of Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.

Insight is typically defined as perceptions of oneself and can be extended to an increasing knowledge of others through knowledge of oneself. It might be useful as a Sense Motive skill and could feasibly have a synergy with Diplomacy and Bluff (or whatever forms these take in this game).
I'd be hesitant to call the Blood Road article an actual 4th edition preview, and leery of mechanics being pulled from it, since that isn't the focus of the article.

It's important to note, however, that the people writing these articles are generally the same people that have been in '4e-think' mode for months or even years now. They play 4th edition, and some have admitted problems trying to think in 3.5 terms anymore.

It's a whole philosophy that I'd assume is pervasive over at Wizards of the Coast and is something that has developed over time. It's not something that's very easy to turn on and off like a lightswitch, so it's expected that the 4e philosophies appear in 3.5 or version-neutral works as well.

I'd agree with those who feel that the article was meant to be version-neutral, but it has definite echoes of 4th edition.
If it is a 4e preview, I like that they dropped the "Knowledge" from a lot of skills. As Solik said, this makes the skills more useful and gets rid of the somewhat arbitrary divide between 3.5's "knowing how to do something" and "being able to do something". Streetwise is probably a combination of Knowledge(Local) and Gather Information. Insight is probably a combination of Sense Motive and "intuition".

The hints at some sort of social challenge system are interesting. They specifically point out that one NPC responds to Diplomacy but not Intimidation, one to Intimidation but not Diplomacy, and one responds equally well to both. It makes me wonder if NPC social challenges will have some sort of stats that show what their social "defenses" are. There might be some sort of game-oriented strategic decision to getting people to talk, instead of 3.5's simple system of rolling one die and hoping to get a high number.
Sign In to post comments