Level Equivalencies?

14 posts / 0 new
Last post
so level in the 4e PHB going up to 30 now. is that an attempt to bring in epic level straight off the bat or is lvl 30 4th = lvl 20 3.5 with more steps in between? i would really like to know this because my DM has postponed his epic level campaign on the assumption it is the former. anyone know?
Well, it's called epic level. I don't know whether it will have special epic level rules like third edition did, or whether there'll be rules given for progressing beyond the 30-level cap.

I believe that a 4e 20th-level character will shade, but not totally eclipse, a 3.5e 20th-level. A 30th-level one will undoubtedly be well beyond that.
At Gen Con 07 the presenter said we would be getting, I quote, "the first 5 levels of epic level play". So regular/paragon play will run up to level 25. Level 26 and beyond is epic level play.

So no, you are not limited to Level 30. Your game can go on and on. The rules to do so will be in the PHB but specific coverage of higher than level 30 will not be presented.
so level in the 4e PHB going up to 30 now. is that an attempt to bring in epic level straight off the bat or is lvl 30 4th = lvl 20 3.5 with more steps in between? i would really like to know this because my DM has postponed his epic level campaign on the assumption it is the former. anyone know?

It really isn't clear yet. What we do know is that the base rules go up to level 30 and that they have referred to 21 - 30 as epic level. They have also said they intend to make high level play easier on the DM. What that means isn't clear because characters are going to be so different then they are now.

My personal theory is that 1st level characters in 4e are going to be more powerful but 30th will be less. They might have higher numerical bonuses, but monsters will go up even more and the characters abilities will be more narrow and focused.

Jay
At Gen Con 07 the presenter said we would be getting, I quote, "the first 5 levels of epic level play". So regular/paragon play will run up to level 25. Level 26 and beyond is epic level play.

So no, you are not limited to Level 30. Your game can go on and on. The rules to do so will be in the PHB but specific coverage of higher than level 30 will not be presented.

Either that, or they are only planning to prepare materials (such as adventures) for parties up to 25th level in the foreseeable future, and 26+ is up to the DM and his group once they get there. Recall they also specified heroic = 1-10, paragon = 11-20, and epic = 21-30.
Actually, as far as I know they are simply stretching out the current 20 levels into 30. They're calling the last 10 levels "epic", but that's just the name they thought should come after "paragon", it doesn't mean it will be the equivalent of 3e's epic levels.

I can't really quote the source, but I think enworld backs me up on this one.
"The way character advancement works now, it takes fewer encounters to gain a level, but it takes roughly the same length of time to reach 30 levels in 4th Edition as it takes to reach 20 levels in 3rd Edition. The rate of level advancement is still being playtested, however, so the jury's still out on whether the final game will work this way.

One of the goals of 4th Edition is to make high-level play as fun, balanced, and manageable as low-level play, and to make high-level characters as easy to create and run as low-level ones. Comparing high-level 4th Edition characters to high-level 3rd Edition characters is not an apples-to-apples comparison because they're built very differently. However, there isn't a startling increase in overall power level from a 20th-level 3rd Edition character to a 20th-level 4th Edition character "

Ok, the first paragraph suggests that they're just splitting 20 levels into 30.
But the second suggests that 20th level 4e PC will be a bit stronger that 20th level 3e PC. Which implies that he crosses the 3e's epic threshold.
Ok, the first paragraph suggests that they're just splitting 20 levels into 30.
But the second suggests that 20th level 4e PC will be a bit stronger that 20th level 3e PC. Which implies that he crosses the 3e's epic threshold.

So would it then be logical to conclude that the former epic levels are still epic but are now a part of the core progression of levels AND that the designers are trying to make the advancement of characters through different levels of powers/abilities/etc. occur at a quicker pace? I only say this because Chris's first paragraph actually only implies that the RATE of progression from 1 to 30 in 4e would be about the same as the RATE of progression from 1 to 20 in 3e/3.5 (which admittedly was "still being playtested" at the time of his quote), not that 20 levels were split into 30.
Yeah, they might just be incorporating epic into core after all.
But I think it will change dramatically, to the point of just extending the regular progression, instead of having all new rules for epic progression (as did the epic level handbook). Those rules were strange, prolematic, and definetely too much for them to stick into a PHB.
It really isn't clear yet. What we do know is that the base rules go up to level 30 and that they have referred to 21 - 30 as epic level. They have also said they intend to make high level play easier on the DM. What that means isn't clear because characters are going to be so different then they are now.

My personal theory is that 1st level characters in 4e are going to be more powerful but 30th will be less. They might have higher numerical bonuses, but monsters will go up even more and the characters abilities will be more narrow and focused.

Jay

The designers have specifically said that the bold statement is what they are doing. They intend to bring down the power level of high-level characters to a point where there's still a game to be played at high level, and to increase the power of low-level characters so that they don't get killed by a single lucky attack from an orc.
The designers know that in 3E, there was a sweet spot that takes place from approximately level 4 to 14 where your PC's are not very fragile and not god-like. They are trying to make more levels of 4E feel like the 3E equivalent of these levels.

I would speculate that level 1 in 4E will feel like level 4ish in 3E. Level 20 in 4E will probably feel like level 14 in 3E. Level 21 and above will feel like level 15 and above in 3E.
<\ \>tuntman
The designers know that in 3E, there was a sweet spot that takes place from approximately level 4 to 14 where your PC's are not very fragile and not god-like. They are trying to make all levels of 4E feel like the 3E equivalent of these levels.

Fixed that for you ;) . They've said that, among other things, this has a lot to do with getting the math involved in AC and hit bonuses right. I imagine that's gonna mean armor has lower values than it has previously, since the difference between a level 3 wizard with no armor and a level 3 fighter with +1 full plate makes things pretty swingy.
Hmmmmm... if characters are going to be so different, then I don't think that there will necessarily be a straight comparison between the two pregressions. I doubt that levels 20-30 in 4E will mimic epic in 3.5, or that 1-20 will mimic 4-14. I think they're trying to get an even feeling throughout the entire spread, so that while before we had differen't 'modes' of play, depending on power level, now it will just be a smoothe transition all the way up.
no one has any more to say?