Dex mod to Attack

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I may have said this elsewhere, but I just thought I'd put it here because it fits and I'm also not entirely sure I have said it elsewhere. I think that the dex mod should be added to melee attack rolls instead of the str mod, then make weapon finesse give you the dex mod to damage rolls. If you think about it, it makes sense. A guy with 18 str and 5 dex is going to be able to hit things really hard, but he's so clumsy he can't hit what he's aiming at. Str affects how hard you swing your sword, dex affects how you swing it. Weapon finesse could then be used to use your high dex to hitting the right areas to do more damage instead of just hitting hard wherever.
I may have said this elsewhere, but I just thought I'd put it here because it fits and I'm also not entirely sure I have said it elsewhere. I think that the dex mod should be added to melee attack rolls instead of the str mod, then make weapon finesse give you the dex mod to damage rolls. If you think about it, it makes sense. A guy with 18 str and 5 dex is going to be able to hit things really hard, but he's so clumsy he can't hit what he's aiming at. Str affects how hard you swing your sword, dex affects how you swing it. Weapon finesse could then be used to use your high dex to hitting the right areas to do more damage instead of just hitting hard wherever.

Strength in this case represents your ability to force your way past defenses. So it is very important in how effective you are in hitting things.

Personally, what I would like to see is weapons listed as dex type or str type. Because your effectiveness with a rapier is mostly based on dexterity, but with a war hammer it is much more of an issue of strength.

jay
According to some masters, strength matters a great deal with the rapier. Depends who you ask.

I think should matter a little bit with most weapons, but dexterity should more important. As it is, though, attack bonus represents both your ability to hit and to get past or through armor. That explains why strength matters so much.
For the vast majority of melee weapons used in D&D, Strength is incredibly relevent toward hitting the enemy. It's not a Strength vs. Speed issue. With most of these weapons, Strength is Speed. Being stronger means you swing the weapon faster. When the weapon moves faster, it's harder to avoid. A faster moving weapons is harder to block with a shield or parry. And since armor is a part of the to-hit calculation, that makes strength even more relevant.

Also, having dexterity affect both how likely you are to hit and how likely you are to avoid hits without some other sort of buy-in cost makes far too important a stat. So there's both good logic and good game design around leaving it as it is.
With the system working as it is, I think Str adding a bonus to hit is fine. I do think having a feat to add dex rather than str to damage would be good.

On the other hand, if you were to take away armor as a bonus to AC and made it grant DR instead, then dex being the primary attack bonus would make more sense since your attack roll is no longer trying to bully it's way past the armor.

And I don't think having dex applying to both attack and defense(which you can already do with a feat) is any worse than your strength applying to both attack and damage.
If you think about it, it makes sense. A guy with 18 str and 5 dex is going to be able to hit things really hard, but he's so clumsy he can't hit what he's aiming at.

I don't see how it can possibly make sense. Compare a kid with 10 str vs a boxer with 18str (and both with the same dex). You cannot logically tell me that both swing a baseball bat at their foes at exactly the same speed. The boxer will naturally swing his bat faster due to him being stronger.

And if he swings his weapon more quickly, the foe will be harder pressed to evade the blows and parry them effectively. Str definitely is relevant here when determining attack rolls.

I do think having a feat to add dex rather than str to damage would be good.

Is that such a good idea? Dex is already used as a modifier in a lot of aspects, would allowing it to affect damage as well make it too good?
3rd had begun to go in the right direction with the Finesse feat (or was it Weapon Finesse?).

They just didn't go quite far enough (considering the premises). Back when we saw it, we just modified it as follow:
- From now on, weapons that were described as usable with Finesse didn't need the feat anymore. Just like ranged weapons, their bonus to hit came from Dex and not Str.
- Supplementary to that, you could take our new Finesse feat that allowed you to use Dex with ONE weapon normally used with Str. The bonus to damage still came from Str though.

I find it more logical to have Dex as a bonus to hit for everything, but I do understand the limitation and legacy associated with D&D. So as a middle ground, I'd like to see something like that in D&D.
I don't see how it can possibly make sense. Compare a kid with 10 str vs a boxer with 18str (and both with the same dex). You cannot logically tell me that both swing a baseball bat at their foes at exactly the same speed. The boxer will naturally swing his bat faster due to him being stronger.

And if he swings his weapon more quickly, the foe will be harder pressed to evade the blows and parry them effectively. Str definitely is relevant here when determining attack rolls.

Your argument is incomplete. A man with a higher strength will swing faster, but if he is less agile/dexterous he will take longer to redirect his attacks. His swings will be powerful and fast, but wide. Not to mention that the dexterous combatant will be quicker with his footwork, which is hardly an inconsequential component to a coordinated attack. Also, that powerful and fast attack is pointless if it is badly aimed and is deflected by armor where a more dexterous opponent would have found a seam.

Strength is important for attacking, but no more so than good hand/eye coordination.
Dexterity should definitely matter more than strength. Swinging faster doesn't matter much without coordination. Rarely, I'm not sure if it matters at all. Of course, I don't believe I've ever fought against anyone dramatically stronger.

Strength does help once the weapons are in contact, but not as much you might think. You have to be Hercules to beat leverage. Positioning your weapon correctly gives you a considerable boost in effect strength. That's why it's good to parry as close to the forte as you can.

With short weapons, such as dagger, I'm not sure strength would help at all. (Except, of course, if it came to grappling.) There's little blade contact, if any, and daggers are light enough that nearly anyone can move them very quickly.
And I don't think having dex applying to both attack and defense(which you can already do with a feat) is any worse than your strength applying to both attack and damage.

It is. The "finesse" guy will have just 1 high stat that will make him to shine in:

AC
Ref Sav
Hit
Damage
Initiative

The Str guy wielding a warhammer will have

Hit
Damage
Encumbrance


Dex is already one of the more powerfull stats. It does not need to be more over than it is, unless you rebalance all the other stats as well (giving str some AC bonus -parry- like in Conan d20, or adding it to Fort Save too)
3rd had begun to go in the right direction with the Finesse feat (or was it Weapon Finesse?).

They just didn't go quite far enough (considering the premises). Back when we saw it, we just modified it as follow:
- From now on, weapons that were described as usable with Finesse didn't need the feat anymore. Just like ranged weapons, their bonus to hit came from Dex and not Str.
- Supplementary to that, you could take our new Finesse feat that allowed you to use Dex with ONE weapon normally used with Str. The bonus to damage still came from Str though.

I find it more logical to have Dex as a bonus to hit for everything, but I do understand the limitation and legacy associated with D&D. So as a middle ground, I'd like to see something like that in D&D.

Hmm...I'd rather see it like this, with a feat to apply dex bonus to damage.
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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

It is. The "finesse" guy will have just 1 high stat that will make him to shine in:

AC
Ref Sav
Hit
Damage
Initiative

The Str guy wielding a warhammer will have

Hit
Damage
Encumbrance


Dex is already one of the more powerfull stats. It does not need to be more over than it is, unless you rebalance all the other stats as well (giving str some AC bonus -parry- like in Conan d20, or adding it to Fort Save too)

True, but consider that what I am mostly talking about would be brought about by way of feats and/or talents(if such are featured in 4e), thus granting a possible advantage to the Str guy in terms of class features.

Aside from that, here's a possible scenario with those two facing each other in combat:

Round 1: Dex wins initiative and tries to disarm. Fails due to Str's firm grip. Str sunders Dex's weapon.
Round 2: Dex cries.

Strength does have some advantages beyond what you listed ;)
Your argument is incomplete. A man with a higher strength will swing faster, but if he is less agile/dexterous he will take longer to redirect his attacks. His swings will be powerful and fast, but wide. Not to mention that the dexterous combatant will be quicker with his footwork, which is hardly an inconsequential component to a coordinated attack. Also, that powerful and fast attack is pointless if it is badly aimed and is deflected by armor where a more dexterous opponent would have found a seam.

And that is already represented by the agile opponent getting to add his dex mod to his AC.

In the very least, you have admitted that str plays a role in how well one can hit. Thus, even if you argue that dex should be a factor, str cannot be that readily discounted either.

Another compromise might be that all stats somehow end up playing a role in determining your attack rolls and/or AC. For example, str, dex and int may improve your attack roll.

Str - you swing more quickly, dex - you strike more accurately, int - you are better able to improvise in combat and seek out weak spots in your opponent's defense and work around them.

Dex might not improve damage, but may better your chances of a crit. Str increases damage as always.

Dex, wis and cha might influence AC somehow. Con could work as some sort of dr/damage sponge effect.

Thoughts?:P

Strength does have some advantages beyond what you listed

But still relatively minor impact compared to dex.
I don't like mental stats taking that roll. I rather doubt IQ helps you much in a fight. As I said, dexterity should come first, but strength should also help somewhat with most weapons.
True, but consider that what I am mostly talking about would be brought about by way of feats and/or talents(if such are featured in 4e), thus granting a possible advantage to the Str guy in terms of class features.

Even then, it is not fair

2 fighters Squishie the Rapier wielder and Crunchie the warhammer user.

With level, magic items and magic buffs, botwh will have very high main stats. their secondary stat will be way lower. Lets say 22 main, 14 secondary. Squishie will have his 14 in... lets say.. wisdom. Crunchine need to put it in Dex.

Lets suppose we use the system suggested in this thread: finesse weapons use dex, there is an "imp finesse" feat that make the dex be used for damage as well

Squishy use imp finesse. Crunchie use... hum.. lightning reflexes to offset his natural disventage in Ref savings.

Squishy will have, in the end:
+6 to hit
+6 to damage (thanks to his feat)
+6 to Ref sav
+6 to initative
+2 to will
+2 to spot and listen
+6 to dex skills
Crunchie will have:
+6 to hit with MELEE only
+6 to damage
+4 to ref save (thanks to his feat)
+2 to initiative
+6 to str based skills (which kinda suck, btw)
higher encumbrance level
Or crunchie could use that feat that uses strength for melee, and have +6 to hit ranged as well... forget what it's called.
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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

Or crunchie could use that feat that uses strength for melee, and have +6 to hit ranged as well... forget what it's called.

In that case, he will match Squishy ranged attack, but will be even lower in Ref save compared to him. That will not change the fact that he still has lower AC, lower Ref, lower Will, Lower spot, lower initiative.... and same damage.
Ok...i still can't see why your scenario would indicate have finesse as an optional attack style wouldn't work. It does in Conan, which is d20 based.
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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

Ok...i still can't see why your scenario would indicate have finesse as an optional attack style wouldn't work. It does in Conan, which is d20 based.

I'm not opposed to finess as an optional attack like in Conan (although i like more the True20 mechanic, where you substract the armor bonus from the attack, instead of getting a "free" armor piercing IF your attack is > AC+DR like in Conan).

What i'm opposed is to make a feat that allow the DAMAGE roll to be modified by Dex. That will make Dex extremelly powerfull compared to str.

This kind of rule *might* work in a swasbuckling adventure, to suggest players to make nimble characters instead of strong ones. But in a mixed, normal, fantasy world, it will hurt horribly the Strong Guys compared to Agile Guys.
Regardless of how well defended any of these arguments have been, it's not an issue of how dexterous you are, it's more about balance.

At least in the 3.x system str mod applies to:

  • To hit in melee
  • To damage with melee weapons
  • 3 Core Str based skills
  • Grappling
  • Carrying Capacity


The dex mod applies to:

  • To hit with ranged
  • AC
  • Reflex Save
  • Initiative
  • 9 Core Dex based skills
  • Also, with a feat can apply to hit with finessable weapons, while str has no extra application feats


Dexterity is already a very powerful stat, so taking to hit away from str and adding it to dex actually makes str weaker and dex stronger.

Being that 4e is a different system, they won't exactly have the same things so it's more possible to change it. For one, they've hinted at the fact that initiative will likely be a skill.

I think it makes a lot of sense to keep str as to hit and damage in melee, especially because it keeps the character from MAD syndrome. You already need a good str and con to be a defender, why make it required to have 3 good stats when the wizard can just go off his int?

There's a lot of game balance reasons, in addition to strength ties into speed and overcoming defenses, that strength modifies to hit in melee.
Well, I don't know about Dex mod to attack, but I would like to see the weapon finesse ability retained in fourth edition, as a feat or simply applied to certain weapons. Otherwise, it's very difficult to play the swashbuckling fighter. There's also the issue of rogues; there was nothing worse than trying to backstab in previous editions, even when you had a high multiplier for the stab, your rogue would miss her enemy anyway (having no strength modifiers and a bad hitdice/bab). I don't believe that high dex as it applies to AC alone is enough to make a high dex melee fighter viable.
I may have said this elsewhere, but I just thought I'd put it here because it fits and I'm also not entirely sure I have said it elsewhere. I think that the dex mod should be added to melee attack rolls instead of the str mod, then make weapon finesse give you the dex mod to damage rolls. If you think about it, it makes sense. A guy with 18 str and 5 dex is going to be able to hit things really hard, but he's so clumsy he can't hit what he's aiming at. Str affects how hard you swing your sword, dex affects how you swing it. Weapon finesse could then be used to use your high dex to hitting the right areas to do more damage instead of just hitting hard wherever.

I agree, though it needs to be a feat.I think
Is that such a good idea? Dex is already used as a modifier in a lot of aspects, would allowing it to affect damage as well make it too good?
sure, if it costs a feat, it balances out and helps balance out Small weak fighters, makes since that they would learn combat styles to maximize hitting vulnerable spots, has real world martial arts precedents..of corse, if 4 ed devalues feats, potential balance issues may arguably become an issue...
Dex is already one of the more powerful stats. It does not need to be more over than it is, unless you rebalance all the other stats as well (giving str some AC bonus -parry- like in Conan d20, or adding it to Fort Save too)
should have been on the books already...raw strength for monsters = natural armor due to "layers of muscles" str score = natural armor bonus...I disagree on the Fort save...look at the appalling list of pro-wrestlers with high strength who have died of heart attacks...
Str - you swing more quickly, dex - you strike more accurately, int - you are better able to improvise in combat and seek out weak spots in your opponent's defense and work around them.

Dex might not improve damage, but may better your chances of a crit. Str increases damage as always.

Dex, wis and cha might influence AC somehow. Con could work as some sort of dr/damage sponge effect.

Thoughts?:P

a feat that does not improve base damage by dex but an increase by one of the crit multiplier makes more sense; test rpgs that allow bonuses for int tend to be overpowered in application...perhaps part of a skill tree emphasizing wit over raw phyical ability?
I like the idea of Con bonus = DR but it is probably not practical (would generally work against PCs since big baddies tend to have a high Con); from what is released so far, the standard races are getting buffed while the alternatives are getting nerfed, so this concept might yet enter 4ed...
Str - you swing more quickly, dex - you strike more accurately, int - you are better able to improvise in combat and seek out weak spots in your opponent's defense and work around them.

Dex might not improve damage, but may better your chances of a crit. Str increases damage as always.

Dex, wis and cha might influence AC somehow. Con could work as some sort of dr/damage sponge effect.

Thoughts?:P

This is similar to what you see with the Swashbuckler class in 3.5. Dex to hit (from Weapon Finesse) and Int to damage (from Insightful Strike). You still get your Str bonus to damage, but no swashbuckler is going to put a high stat in Str, so this likely will be little or none.

The problem with making every stat affect everything like that though is the amount of math. And if you were allow people to pick which stat applies to what, you'll run into the problem that people have 24's in two stats and 6's in the other four.

Moving more stuff to Dex is a problem. It's already achieved the status of "critical to success" due to AC. Dex is the biggest of those because of that. If you have a high enough AC, it doesn't matter how many extra HP you have, or how much damage you do in melee.
Yes, I am a defender apologist. A Rock and a Hard Place: A Warden Handbook
So the solution to a sensible approach here seems to be use dex for combat to hit, but depower the dex ability overall by moving skills it depends on to other abilities.

I have to agree that dex is an overused short hand for skills that need better modeling.
At least in the 3.x system str mod applies to:

  • To hit in melee
  • To damage with melee weapons
  • 3 Core Str based skills
  • Grappling
  • Carrying Capacity


The dex mod applies to:

  • To hit with ranged
  • AC
  • Reflex Save
  • Initiative
  • 9 Core Dex based skills
  • Also, with a feat can apply to hit with finessable weapons, while str has no extra application feats

I would have to disagree with your analysis. First, you gave each of the items equal weight. That's just doesn't float for me. A weight in which you measure the percentage likelihood of each line-item being relevant in a combat might be more apporpriate.

Let's say that the average combat is four rounds (according to the devs, it's more like 3.2, but 4 is easier to calculate).

Weighted list for Strength of 16:

  • +15% to hit in melee - 100% use each of four rounds = 4
  • +75 to 100% to average damage with melee weapons - 100% use each of four rounds = 8
  • 3 Core Str based skills - estimating 50% chance of use in one round = .5
  • Grappling - no value, this is included in To Hit in Melee
  • Carrying Capacity - only affects movement speed in combat = 1
  • Also, with a feat can boost damage in exchange for excess to-hit = 2


Total value in combat = 15.5

Weighted list for Dex of 16:

  • +15% to hit with ranged - with enemies closing, 100% in two rounds, 50% in two rounds = 3
  • +15% to AC - 100% in four rounds = 4
  • Reflex Save -25% in four rounds = 1
  • Initiative - 50% in one round = .5
  • 9 Core Dex based skills - estimating 50% of use two rounds = 1
  • Also, with a feat can apply to hit with finessable weapons (no bonus applies to melee as well) = 1


Total value in combat = 10.5

These, of course, are ballpark figures. With these numbers, if you move the to-hit bonus to Dex, Dex stays are 10.5 and Strength drops to 11.5

Additionally, if you look at the value that players apply to these ability scores, obviously Str is ranked much higher than Dex. In combat, it's double whammy of plus to hit and plus to damage mean that combat is over faster. That means less damage on you. And when you get iterative attacks, the bonus to damage just increases in value.

I would predict that Strength's huge bonus to fighters is going to be shared with Dex. Teh designers have declared an end to the days of the "One Stat Wonder", agreeing with most fantasy authors in that having rounded, interesting characters is better for story-telling.
Additionally, if you look at the value that players apply to these ability scores, obviously Str is ranked much higher than Dex. In combat, it's double whammy of plus to hit and plus to damage mean that combat is over faster. That means less damage on you. And when you get iterative attacks, the bonus to damage just increases in value.

I would predict that Strength's huge bonus to fighters is going to be shared with Dex. Teh designers have declared an end to the days of the "One Stat Wonder", agreeing with most fantasy authors in that having rounded, interesting characters is better for story-telling.

Your calculations are correct to a point. Str is much better than Dex for classes that rely on hitting enemies with a weapon. For those that don't, Dex is critical, even for spellcasting classes, not just Rogues and archers (Not just for AC: see Ranged Touch Attacks). While your formulas prove one thing, they don't prove that thing for all cases. Your argument, therefore, is merely circumstantial.

Also, don't forget that iterative attacks go away in the next edition.
Yes, I am a defender apologist. A Rock and a Hard Place: A Warden Handbook
These, of course, are ballpark figures. With these numbers, if you move the to-hit bonus to Dex, Dex stays are 10.5 and Strength drops to 11.5

I dont agree with the weights you gave to each skill (archers often are capable to fire full round allways, thanks to the 5' rule)

Also you forgot Weapon Finesse. There is not a feat that allow using Str to fire bows or to add it to reflex save, but there is one that allow dex to roll to hit
And how is it that if dex becomes useful to hit, dex "value" in your "table" stays at same number?
Strength in this case represents your ability to force your way past defenses. So it is very important in how effective you are in hitting things.

Personally, what I would like to see is weapons listed as dex type or str type. Because your effectiveness with a rapier is mostly based on dexterity, but with a war hammer it is much more of an issue of strength.

jay

I too think this would be a good option. However, most weapons should still be Strength-based.

Or maybe it should depend on class: A barbarian (the fierce non-ranger-like type) or fighter might tend to use their Strength to get past enemy defenses, and a rouge or bard might tend to user their dexterity to get past enemy defenses.
Using Dex as a modifier to attack has a major in-game advantage. You can apply it to every hit roll, regardless of weapon or method, which will help streamline/simplify/dumb down the game. (Pick your phrase of choice)

Yes, I know about how it makes sense for Strength to give the to-hit modifier because Strength lets you swing faster and push past defenses. I get that. But by the same token, Strength should help your PC dodge while in heavy armor, because he can carry the weight and move with it more easily. But Strength doesn't affect the Dex bonus cap on armors at all in 3.5.

I'd add a minimum Strength requirement to each weapon and armor type. If you don't meet it, you don't get the Dex bonus to AC or to hit. I'd also forbid anything but the bog-standard attack. That'd ensure there were no wimpy weaklings running round with greataxes.
I would have to disagree with your analysis. First, you gave each of the items equal weight. That's just doesn't float for me. A weight in which you measure the percentage likelihood of each line-item being relevant in a combat might be more apporpriate.

I did not give them equal weight, i simply counted the number of things they applied to. If you're going to weigh it, it must be weighed without bias.

Let's say that the average combat is four rounds (according to the devs, it's more like 3.2, but 4 is easier to calculate).

So, why round up? That allows you to bias numbers more. I didn't give weight because there's no universal model for weighing mods. But assuming that I agree with the 4 as opposed to 3 which is closer to reality.

Weighted list for Strength of 16:

  • +15% to hit in melee - 100% use each of four rounds = 4

What about the one round that melee may not be in range?

  • +75 to 100% to average damage with melee weapons - 100% use each of four rounds = 8

2.5 to 5.2 with a dagger is higher than 100% average damage, and 7 to 11 for a greatsword (accounting for 2-handed) is a 57.1% increase.

Given that math works in your favor and you won't even take it, shows that you're pulling numbers out of nowhere. Again where does it get the point?

  • 3 Core Str based skills - estimating 50% chance of use in one round = .5

Jump, climb or swim? In combat? Hm, I can't say I've seen it happen often at all. Your estimate has no numbers. you're just tacking on another .5.

  • Grappling - no value, this is included in To Hit in Melee
  • Carrying Capacity - only affects movement speed in combat = 1

Why does this get a one? Why not a .2? or 4? Your numbers are arbitrary.

  • Also, with a feat can boost damage in exchange for excess to-hit = 2

2? Why does it get 2? Again your numbers are arbitrary. I added the last one on the list of the dex as an afterthought, I certainly didn't give it much right out of the box.

Total value in combat = 15.5

Arbitrary number you just assigned to it.

Weighted list for Dex of 16:

  • +15% to hit with ranged - with enemies closing, 100% in two rounds, 50% in two rounds = 3

As noted with the 5 foot step, not to mention a high dex character usually can tumble away if they have reach, you're not giving it enough credit here.

  • +15% to AC - 100% in four rounds = 4

Internally consistent with the way you measured Str, but at the same time, still arbitrary.

[list][*]Reflex Save -25% in four rounds = 1[/list

Again, you're guestimating (yes, it's a made up word).

  • Initiative - 50% in one round = .5

Why does it get .5? When you get a higher initiative you go first every combat round. You get an extra full round over your enemy, if you defeat him, because he doesn't get his turn before yours.

  • 9 Core Dex based skills - estimating 50% of use two rounds = 1

Escape artist, Tumble, Balance all very likely to be used, especially tumble and escape artist in combat. Escape artist is basically applying your Dex mod to grapple checks for purposes of resisting.

  • Also, with a feat can apply to hit with finessable weapons (no bonus applies to melee as well) = 1

Again, an arbitrary number. You gave power attack 2 points while weapon finesse 1. More to hit is valued in this game than more to damage. Examples 2hand power attack, every -1 hit = 2 damage. Collision weapon enhancement, +2 bonus for +5 damage, and there's more too. You can even combine the two with a spiked chain and turn your extra to hit with weapon finesse to extra damage.

Total value in combat = 10.5

These, of course, are ballpark figures. With these numbers, if you move the to-hit bonus to Dex, Dex stays are 10.5 and Strength drops to 11.5

Additionally, if you look at the value that players apply to these ability scores, obviously Str is ranked much higher than Dex. In combat, it's double whammy of plus to hit and plus to damage mean that combat is over faster. That means less damage on you. And when you get iterative attacks, the bonus to damage just increases in value.

Ballpark figures based on in combat situations only and a very very clunky model. You neglect all the things dex works for out of combat, while str gives you two things, carrying capacity and strength checks to break things. Dex allows you to hide, move silently, squeak through holes, walk a tight rope, take less damage from falling, steal something from someone, tie someone up (ok that one's pretty lame), and that's the tip of the iceberg. Where were the points for all those out of combat uses?

It's been a commonly, and highly known, and beat to death issue that they took too much off the half-orc, and str is way overrated in the PhB. It's uncalled for.

I didn't say "look at these numbers they are greater, I said look at all these things that it affects. I'm going to go off on a ledge here and assume you understand the underlying effects." In short, you declared that I said they had equal weight, I did not.

If you're going to give a model, make a sound one. I didn't give a scientific model because not only do you have to create one but to get it accredited as reasonable model for accurately measuring something is way more than the scope of "hey lets make it up on the spot because i disagree with this guy."

I don't mind you disagreeing with me, that's fine, I didn't say "Look at this irrefutable evidence," I said "Look at how much dex really applies to in game, it's a lot more than strength." Dex applying to so much is almost a sacred cow with how much it applies to and people don't want it taken away.

One stat for AC and to hit? Sign me up, everyone will love dex more now. Actually no... I don't want dex to be even more of a king stat. +1 to AC is also harder to get than +1 to hit. BAB raises as your level increases at the rate of at least 1 per 2 levels. Weapon focus gives you another +1 with a weapon all the time. Dodge on the otherhand only applies to one target at a time.

You declare that:

Teh designers have declared an end to the days of the "One Stat Wonder"

but dex already is the one stat wonder, and you propose they make it more?

I'm all for balance. If dex is no longer king in 4e, that's great, it would open it up to applying dex to hit (although, I'm not so sure how much it really needs to apply to hit). The whole point of my post, was that "As is" dex was not made to hit [i]for the reason that it's already the "one stat wonder."
Somehow I seemed to leave it out of my last post...

But on the subject of Dex vs Str

Every character can make use of a higher AC, a higher reflex save, and a higher initiative. Every character. It doesn't matter if you're a gnome wizard, goliath barbarian, or elven ranger, you can use Dex.

If you're a gnome wizard, There's little benefit to having a higher str, but going first, getting hit less, and saving from reflex spells more often? Thank you! If you're a ranged ranger you only need str upto your composite longbow bonus, and the goliath barbarian benefits from both.

Some characters draw off strength well, but all characters benefit from a higher dex.
Meh, constitution's also good for everybody.

Dexterity's a fine stat, sure, but only rogue types put it first. I certainly wouldn't call it the king of stats. Melee characters focus on strength, while casters focus on the casting stat.
Meh, constitution's also good for everybody.

Dexterity's a fine stat, sure, but only rogue types put it first. I certainly wouldn't call it the king of stats. Melee characters focus on strength, while casters focus on the casting stat.

it is still the king of stats, with con, exactly becouse of that: every character put it 2nd in the list, just behind his class onestat wonder. Giving it even more power will make it even stronger
No, it isn't. Your primary stat's king. Just because nearly everyone wants decent dexterity and constitution doesn't make those stats the best. In game, they're almost always come after that treasured primary stat. Dexterity's king for rogue types. That's it.
No, it isn't. Your primary stat's king. Just because nearly everyone wants decent dexterity and constitution doesn't make those stats the best. In game, they're almost always come after that treasured primary stat. Dexterity's king for rogue types. That's it.

I agree with the portion that says your primary's stat is king.

Dex being king is more than just rogue types. There are fighters that work quite well if you build it the right way, in addition to certain archers as well. You basically, in character creation, determine what your primary stat will be and build around that.

I tend to place dex higher than con in 3.x because there's no penalty for having less than full hitpoints until you hit 0. Higher dex can reduce your total damage taken, while con lets you take more damage. I'd rather not need to be healed, or as much, than always have to get healed in terms of strategies to defend your character's life.

Dex is a bit better at lower levels, when bonuses to hit you are lower and you can completely negate a hit over having a higher con. In higher levels, higher con is more hp per con mod, and monsters have high enough attack bonuses to hit you anyway, so surviving the hit is more important. So I can see since I tend to play lower level, my personal choice over having higher dex over higher con, if given a choice.

Given that 4e claims to normalizing the disparities in to hit and AC ratio, I can see having a higher dex being even better in 4e, because the difference between a 50% chance to hit you and a 30% chance to hit you will add up(4e through-out all levels), while the difference between a 95% chance to hit you and a 95% to hit you isn't even a change if you aren't heavily invested in AC(3.x at high levels).
It's true that some fighter types also focus on dexterity, especially now that that you can use two feats and get dexterity to damage.

For everyone else, it's hard to say whether constitution or dexterity is better. Fortitude saves typically matter a lot more than reflex saves. Perhaps you're right that dexterity is better at low levels and constitution's better a high levels.
It's true that some fighter types also focus on dexterity, especially now that that you can use two feats and get dexterity to damage.

It can take quite a bit to get that dex to damage, and it ends up being what? +3 to 6ish extra damage? Maybe more with magical items? With some builds, I find it's just better to use a finessable power attackable weapon, turning that extra to hit to the damage.. but that's really the way you want to build your character.

For everyone else, it's hard to say whether constitution or dexterity is better. Fortitude saves typically matter a lot more than reflex saves. Perhaps you're right that dexterity is better at low levels and constitution's better a high levels.

Unfortunately, I haven't actually done a complete statistical analysis of it, but the numbers do look like they are in that favor. The thing about save or dies from fortitude saves is that they are more late game, which backs up the theory that con is better late game while dex is better early game when the damage from reflex based attacks are a higher percentage of your hitpoints, and avoiding attacks altogether saves your life.
While the idea of Dex being a solid modifier to hitting someone in DnD, it only works in system where armor is all about the DR and not a bonus to AC.

Walking around in Plate Mail should prevent you from taking very much damage at all from regular weapons. There are just not many areas that can be hit do do signifigant damage.

So for those that want to make Dex your to hit modifier, you will also need to change the mechanism to calculate AC.
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