Define Vision Better

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Vision in 3.X is not clear when using creatures that are very large nor does it specify that vision occurs from edge, center or any point in the creatures space.

This can carry over to light also (a colossal creature holding a candle for example).

It seems that the vision rules in 3.X are all based off creatures that take up one square. We need specific rules for larger creatures.

Here are examples:
-I am a medium sized dwarven mage who drinks a potion of enlarge - now I am a large creature. My darkvision is 60' but from where do I start counting? The center intersection? Each edge of my character?

-I am Huge sized monster with 90' DarkVision. Where does that start? Keep in mind that HUGE is the only size that doesn't have a center intersection - it has a square for the center (compare the size templates and you will see that all other sizes actually have an intersection or cross hair for the center). So does all vision start from the edges of the creatures? So the larger the creature is, the further it can see because it can see from each of its edge of its space? So in the case of a gargantuan creature with 90' vision, it is getting an additional 30' feet vision than a medium sized creature with 90' vision because his body takes up 6 cells?

There are just too many unknowns with 3.X vision because the rules never touch on them. Please make sure the 4.0 rules cover vision much better.
*bumping so that the odds of Wotc Staff seeing it improve* :D
From the edge. 60' darkvision lets you see anything within 60' from any point you occupy.
I'd just be happy if they brought back infravision, and kept darkvision for some creatures.
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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

I'd just be happy if they brought back infravision, and kept darkvision for some creatures.

Terrible.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/infravision.html
From the edge. 60' darkvision lets you see anything within 60' from any point you occupy.

That is how I play it BUT where does it say that anywhere in the 3.X books? That is my point, it doesn't, so in a way, we are logically assuming.

Plus with light and spell effects, they all seem to radiate from an intersection (look at spell templates) so that makes it a bit confusing for new users. One would argue that the Colossal sized creature holding that medium sized candle in all points within its space thus creating 30' + 5' worth of candle light (but a candle produces only 5') but that doesn't make sense. But yet it is moving its eyes all over the place in that space... There are just too many conflicting rules here.

I am just throwing this out there for Wotc to be a little more specific with Vision/Light rules when it comes to creatures larger than medium. Heck, everything you fight at high level is MASSIVE, so cover it in the books.
The part about where to start vision from seems moot, even if not explicitly stated in the rules (it might be, i'm not looking it up, it's silly).

However, I agree on hte point of light sources and larger creatures. Light sources for medium creatures pertaining to larger creatures, anyway.

If a Minotaur (large) is holding a minotaur-sized candle, we can assume that it illuminates in squares the same distance relative to himself as an elf-sized candle illuminates in squares for an elf. Now a minotaur-sized 'square' in this instance would actually be 4 squares, as it's 'spaces' not actual squares.......oy.

Anyway. If the minotaur is holding an elf-sized candle, or an enlarged elf holds a candle previously held by his medium-sized dwarf buddy, then we run into the issues raised by the OP.

I would say house rule it, as a definitive rules set to determine which square/intersection the candle originates in would require the current combat system be reworked to include Facing........I doubt this will happen.

If you include facing, just rule it originates from the creature's front flank in its center square/intersection, if applicable.

I dunno, just my two bits.
...so in a way, we are logically assuming.

I would rather do this and use some common sense, then be forced to reference a rule somewhere in a book. A lot of people are jumping on the bandwagon and spouting 'dumbed down' when talking about 4E. I think they have it backwards to a degree. If they have to put in rules on how to handle or interpret every little aspect of the fantasy world, then that is actually 'dumbing it down' because they are not allowing the DM to handle it logically and in free-form. The DM then doesn't have to think because the books do that for him.

Take this light-source and vision issue. Light from a candle doesn't actually just mystically end at exactly 5 feet, it flickers creating varying brightness and gradually gets dimmer as distance increases. That is how light from a candle should be described in game, not just 'you can see fine for five feet then all is solid darkness'.

For your larger than medium creature, you as the DM should decide where the light is coming from within it's area. In which direction is the creature trying to see? How is it holding the light source? Does it's own body cast a shadow behind it? Describe it visually and you'll have more fun.

There are just too many conflicting rules here.

This will increase as rules increase. I'm not against rules. They are absolutely necessary... for some interactions to be resolved. Hope this helps a little.

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That is how I play it BUT where does it say that anywhere in the 3.X books? That is my point, it doesn't, so in a way, we are logically assuming.

Plus with light and spell effects, they all seem to radiate from an intersection (look at spell templates) so that makes it a bit confusing for new users. One would argue that the Colossal sized creature holding that medium sized candle in all points within its space thus creating 30' + 5' worth of candle light (but a candle produces only 5') but that doesn't make sense. But yet it is moving its eyes all over the place in that space... There are just too many conflicting rules here.

I am just throwing this out there for Wotc to be a little more specific with Vision/Light rules when it comes to creatures larger than medium. Heck, everything you fight at high level is MASSIVE, so cover it in the books.

Characters occupying squares are not restricted to one particular "facing." They are assumed to be constantly looking around them and behind them as would be appropriate. The candle would then be assumed to be moving around inside the squares occupied by the creature just as its eyes are. Why don't you restrict the character's ability to see "behind" them if you're going to restrict light sources? Someone moving in one direction is unable to see things coming from behind them? Because those aren't the rules, and those would make the rules extremely clunky.

The rules are not conflicting or confusing. You just don't know them.
Terrible.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/infravision.html

Ok...and? I still want infravision back. It doesn't have to make real-world sense for me to enjoy it as a game aspect.
Color me flattered.

LIFE CYCLE OF A RULES THREAD

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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

Ok...and? I still want infravision back. It doesn't have to make real-world sense for me to enjoy it as a game aspect.

The rest of us don't. You can ask for a variant rule, but it doesn't make sense for the rest of us, who don't like logical errors, complicated and inconsistent rules.
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