ATTACK DEFENCE MITIGATE

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I'd prefer it it if armour mitigated damage rather than reduce the chance of a hit. Among other things.

ARMOUR - Damage Reduction. Reduces useable Dex Bonus.

ARMOUR PROFICIENCY - Increases the amount of useable Dex Bonus.
The better a PC gets at wearing armour the better he can move in it.

CLASS DEFENCE BONUS - Different classes get better at defence as they increase in level.

ROLL DEFENCE D20 - Roll a defensive D20, add Defence bonuses.

MAGICAL ATTACK - D20 + Magical Attack Bonus + Level Of spell + Ability Bonus.

MAGICAL DEFENCE - D20 + Relevant save bonus + Ability Bonus.

Just some thoughts from what I've read - any more ideas.
I’ve really liked most of what I’ve heard about 4E so far, but it seems AC/HP is staying. I really wish they would do armour as DR and AC turned into a Dodge stat. My ideal would be as follows:

- Armour as DR, it would keep a similar scale as it has already (Full Plate is 8 points)
- The current AC (renamed dodge or something) count would include dex mod, dodge feat, possibly class benefits.
- Hitpoints (renamed Combat points) would be spent to avoid major physical harm.
It would combine things like stamina, minor bumps/scrapes and rolling with attacks. PCs would get Combat points replenished at the encounter level.
- A new Wounds stat is implemented. When you have no more Combat points to spend or you are physically/magically restrained the damage would be added to this stat minus the DR from armour and magic. The amount of wounds that you accumulate would affect all your dice rolls (skill checks, combat, saving throws). Once you have accumulated the amount of wounds that equal your Con score you are dead.

There are a few balance issues to work out like criticals, sneak attacks, cleric healing. Something like this system would make combat easier for me to imagine.
I’ve really liked most of what I’ve heard about 4E so far, but it seems AC/HP is staying. I really wish they would do armour as DR and AC turned into a Dodge stat. My ideal would be as follows:

- Armour as DR, it would keep a similar scale as it has already (Full Plate is 8 points)
- The current AC (renamed dodge or something) count would include dex mod, dodge feat, possibly class benefits.
- Hitpoints (renamed Combat points) would be spent to avoid major physical harm.
It would combine things like stamina, minor bumps/scrapes and rolling with attacks. PCs would get Combat points replenished at the encounter level.
- A new Wounds stat is implemented. When you have no more Combat points to spend or you are physically/magically restrained the damage would be added to this stat minus the DR from armour and magic. The amount of wounds that you accumulate would affect all your dice rolls (skill checks, combat, saving throws). Once you have accumulated the amount of wounds that equal your Con score you are dead.

There are a few balance issues to work out like criticals, sneak attacks, cleric healing. Something like this system would make combat easier for me to imagine.

Seconded on all points, this is what I'd like..
And add:
- A way to be knocked uncouncious without dying.. Maybe this could be done with a damage threshold: If you are dealt damage equal to or higher than the threshold, you are knocked uncouncious (or die if you reach 0 wounds).
I’ve really liked most of what I’ve heard about 4E so far, but it seems AC/HP is staying. I really wish they would do armour as DR and AC turned into a Dodge stat. My ideal would be as follows:

- Armour as DR, it would keep a similar scale as it has already (Full Plate is 8 points)
- The current AC (renamed dodge or something) count would include dex mod, dodge feat, possibly class benefits.
- Hitpoints (renamed Combat points) would be spent to avoid major physical harm.
It would combine things like stamina, minor bumps/scrapes and rolling with attacks. PCs would get Combat points replenished at the encounter level.
- A new Wounds stat is implemented. When you have no more Combat points to spend or you are physically/magically restrained the damage would be added to this stat minus the DR from armour and magic. The amount of wounds that you accumulate would affect all your dice rolls (skill checks, combat, saving throws). Once you have accumulated the amount of wounds that equal your Con score you are dead.

There are a few balance issues to work out like criticals, sneak attacks, cleric healing. Something like this system would make combat easier for me to imagine.

Well, if its anything like Star Wars Saga Edition, you should like it. While not perfectly what you list above, it manages to get most of them.
I would like to see armor as DR, full plate being 8 dr.
half of the dr should be a dodge penalty, with masterwork/magic armor reducing the dodge penalty 1-2, OR increasing the dr.

A defense/dodge roll is cumbersome, so I would suggest a passive dodge bonus of half your Character level(not class level)
I think the existing AC system works pretty much like a DR system in the long run. If you use armour as DR, you would hit more often, but do less damage for each hit. With the existing system, the AC makes you hit less often, but when you hit, you deal full damage.

Also, what would be more fun? Hitting often, but doing minimal damage every hit or hitting less often, but when you do hit, you deal a lot of damage? If you are hitting quite often, but just doing minimal damage, every attack would seem pretty much the same.

I've played an AC as DR system before in 2E. I hated it when you are fighting heavily armoured opponents because you know every time you hit, you are just doing 1 point of damage. It got really boring. Using the normal AC system, when you do hit a heavily armoured opponent, you get really excited when you can reach for your damage dice.
<\ \>tuntman
I've played an AC as DR system before in 2E. I hated it when you are fighting heavily armoured opponents because you know every time you hit, you are just doing 1 point of damage. It got really boring. Using the normal AC system, when you do hit a heavily armoured opponent, you get really excited when you can reach for your damage dice.

By the same token, if you're playing a heavily-armoured character with "Armour as DR" rules, when you're hit, you know that the enemy will only do a little bit of damage whereas under the normal AC system, your heart quakes when the b@$t@rd finally hits you and gets to reach for his damage dice.

Give me armour as DR any day; the AC system is stupid, counterintuitive, and is, IMO, one of those "sacred cows" that D&D 4th edition needs to slaughter. I am massively disappointed that it looks like I won't be getting my wish.

I remember when I heard that a 3rd edition of D&D was on the horizon. I thought to myself, "Here's a splendid opportunity for the game's designers to fix this bit of stupidity." They failed. It looks like they're going to fail to fix it once again in 4th edition.

If you have to resort to making offensive comments instead of making logical arguments, you deserve to be ignored.

Armour as dr may work, but not without a lot of revision, since the current rules do not really support it that well.

At the end, it might simply be more work than what it is worth, IMO. I am fine with armour as AC bonus rules as they are.
Give me armour as DR any day; the AC system is stupid, counterintuitive, and is, IMO, one of those "sacred cows" that D&D 4th edition needs to slaughter.

Oh dear lord, no offense, but it's nowhere NEAR as ridiculously counterintuitive as THAC0.

I'm rather apathetic, as long as AC is just a number I have to roll higher than to hit. Either way, it amounts to little difference in outcome.
I've played an AC as DR system before in 2E. I hated it when you are fighting heavily armoured opponents because you know every time you hit, you are just doing 1 point of damage. It got really boring. Using the normal AC system, when you do hit a heavily armoured opponent, you get really excited when you can reach for your damage dice.

2e did not have power attack, though.. -8 to AC might mean +16 to damage (With a 2h) complettely offseting the DR adventage.
By the same token, if you're playing a heavily-armoured character with "Armour as DR" rules, when you're hit, you know that the enemy will only do a little bit of damage whereas under the normal AC system, your heart quakes when the b@$t@rd finally hits you and gets to reach for his damage dice.

This never bothered me. It makes things more interesting when hit points get low. If both combattants have high DR and the same damage potential, the one with higher hit points has a big advantage. You know both will be hit often but lose only a little bit of hit points at a time. If you use the normal AC rule, both will not hit very often. One target may be 3 hits away from going down while the other is 2. The next hit could make it 3-1 or 2-2 hits from dying, so the one who is behind has a better chance of catching up.
<\ \>tuntman
2e did not have power attack, though.. -8 to AC might mean +16 to damage (With a 2h) complettely offseting the DR adventage.

This would make 2h style far better than any other fighting style. Two-weapon style with a light, off-hand weapon would be useless if you cannot do any damage with your off-hand weapon.

The system that a game like war hammer uses is to roll to hit, then you roll to beat the armour value. This means you could hit the target, but if you did not beat the armour value with the second roll, you do no damage. If you did beat the armour value, you do damage. The D&D AC system combines hitting and beating the armour in a single roll. As you go up in levels, you are essentially better able to hit in a way to get pass the armour and do damage. The simplicity of combining everything into an AC value and a single hit roll helps speed up the game.

Although it is possible to make an armour as DR system, I believe that such a system would be more complex. Currently, most attacks are against creatures that do not have DR. DR is something that is rather uncommon, so most of the time you do not need to deal with the DR part of attacking and damage. Practically every other effect that keeps you from taking damage just affects AC. Armour, shield and dodge bonuses are the most common effects and they all just affect the AC value. Once you know the value, you roll to hit and if you hit, damage.

In an armour as DR rule, your dodge bonus now affects the chance to hit, but now your armour affects damage. You have to deal with modifiers that affect hitting and damage all the time. Both of these modifiers vary when you change targets. In the existing system, the only modifier you deal with is AC which will vary from target to target. Damage is always the same. It's just one less thing to keep track of during a fight in most situations. In the end, the math may work out to be the same. However, if you can do the math more simply, it will make the game play run more smoothly.
<\ \>tuntman
This would make 2h style far better than any other fighting style. Two-weapon style with a light, off-hand weapon would be useless if you cannot do any damage with your off-hand weapon.

Well, already it is better than any other fighting style. 2 weapon only works if you take PrC that give extra push to it, like dervish.

However...IF damare reduction makes the cut into 4e, keep in mind that they CAN tweak it. It is not that it will be 3.X with DR and that's all. For example... light weapons might have a rule that say that if they hit the AC/reflex/whatever by more than 5, completelly ignore DR (finding the weakness in the armor, such as slicing dagger between 2 plates). Or any other rule.
TWF may not be the same in 4e. It may just grant additional damage dice, in which case you won't be applying DR to each individual swing of a weapon but to the entire round worth of damage from a particular opponent.