Condition Track?

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I know all about the Condition Track in SAGA. I have also noticed a couple of you mention it in regards to 4E. Is this speculation or have I missed something that indicates the Condition Track will be a part of 4E?
It's speculation. In that Design & Development article which featured the dragon fight, there was this tease about the cleric's strike.

The wizard fails to put out the fire, so he takes more damage. Worse yet, the dragon’s breath scoured away the wizard’s fire resistance, so he takes the full amount. He blasts the dragon with a ray of freezing cold, but this isn’t 3rd Edition. The dragon takes normal damage, but it’s not enough to slow it down.

Is 'slow it down' a reference to a condition track? No one knows. Wizards of the Coast know, but they're keeping quiet for now.
Gotcha. I am a little concerned because the Condition Track is one thing I am not a fan of in SAGA.
I for one hope they do put it into 4e, it's much better than the all or nothing next to useless MD save. It's more elegant then the numerous conditions of d20, and it unilaterallys cover all those conditions it replaces in a simple yet effective manner. Top it off, the numbers follow the standard pattern of modifiers thereby removing wasted space and time to have to look up the conditions in the book or DM screen.
I for one hope they do put it into 4e, it's much better than the all or nothing next to useless MD save. It's more elegant then the numerous conditions of d20, and it unilaterallys cover all those conditions it replaces in a simple yet effective manner. Top it off, the numbers follow the standard pattern of modifiers thereby removing wasted space and time to have to look up the conditions in the book or DM screen.

I want to back this up with a little of my own view point. I hated the condition track when I first heard about it. It seemed to my like an extra level of complexity that was unneeded. Only after reading through the book and really paying attention did I realize that it actually made things less complex in an elegant way. Now poisions, exhaustion, rage ending and a myriad of other status effects could be simulated with the one simple mechanic. I really would encourage the use of it in the 4th if it's not in there already.
I'm also hoping that they port over the condition track.
The only condition/threshold or what have you in 4th edition that I've heard about is "Bloodied" (half hp).
The only condition/threshold or what have you in 4th edition that I've heard about is "Bloodied" (half hp).

True, which made me start to think the combat track might not be on it's way to D&D.
True, which made me start to think the combat track might not be on it's way to D&D.

As the Condition Track stands now it would not work in D&D (Threshold equal to your Fort defence), because D&D characters are often, especially at higher levels taking 40+ points of damage, so every round people would be zipping down the Track.
As the Condition Track stands now it would not work in D&D (Threshold equal to your Fort defence), because D&D characters are often, especially at higher levels taking 40+ points of damage, so every round people would be zipping down the Track.

An even better point. Guess my hopes are probably gonna be fully dashed there.
Some version of it will be there. Amounts of damage being dealt doesn't preclude anything.

I will quite glad to toss out the vitality/wounds system in favor of it.
Some version of it will be there.

Source?
I hope and pray they put some type of condition track into 4E, even if it isn't exactly like Saga. It's just too easy to use it in place of all of the different condition in 3E and it really adds a level of realism that shows characters getting worn down. I'm all for it.
As the Condition Track stands now it would not work in D&D (Threshold equal to your Fort defence), because D&D characters are often, especially at higher levels taking 40+ points of damage, so every round people would be zipping down the Track.

This assumes that damage works the way it did in 3e, which for some spells like fireball we know is not true, and that Fort save won't scale with damage better. Of course, you could do all those things and not use a condition track anyway.
I very much want to see a condition track. It greatly reduces complexity and can unify the results of some effects (as a previous poster suggested).

This idea originally was found in Alternity, where once you got passed the complexity and lack of clarity was kind of fun.
Well, the Condition Track makes a lack of iterative attacks easier to handle without slowing down combat much.

But, I think it is expected that a hit from a dragon (or another big thing) is gonna wind you.
As the Condition Track stands now it would not work in D&D (Threshold equal to your Fort defence), because D&D characters are often, especially at higher levels taking 40+ points of damage, so every round people would be zipping down the Track.

If you remove multiple attacks from high level characters and monsters, these damages drop considerably. The only source of massive damage at that point would be spell damage which can often be reduced or negated by saving throws. I still think the Track could work in 4e with some modification.
As the Condition Track stands now it would not work in D&D (Threshold equal to your Fort defence), because D&D characters are often, especially at higher levels taking 40+ points of damage, so every round people would be zipping down the Track.

If the Track is in, odds are the damage numbers are going to be reduced as well (or the DT number will be raised to compensate).
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
In 3.5e, a PC who has four attacks a round with a weapon will do, on average, about twice the average damage of their weapon per round.

So if attacking once per round in 4e can yield similar results, we'll have lost nothing.
I like the idea of the condition tracker and wouldn't mind it.
1.) If you remove multiple attacks from high level characters and monsters, these damages drop considerably.

2.) I still think the Track could work in 4e with some modification.

1.) I'm pretty sure many monsters will still have multiple attacks, and that PCs will have something along the lines of Saga (half CL as bonus to damage). And even if every thing in the game only has 1 attack a round it wouldn't matter, as you only move down the Condition Track per source of damage that equals or exceeds your threshold.

2.) Exactly, I totally agree – I would love to see some type of Condition Track in 4th Ed, but of course it will need to be modified from the Saga version.
One thing the condition track will do is make dying harder, right? D&D desperately needs that.

Also, it provides a nice thing for former save-or-lose spells to manipulate besides hit points. Of course, some other special conditions might be needed beyond a condition track (perhaps slowed and some other effects), but not much.
It seems like they might have some sort of reverse logic condition track going.

I can't remember where now... but I seem to remember some implication that various effects are dependent on your current hit points. Death spells may only actually kill you if you're below a certain condition threshold. Hold may only slow you down unless you were bloodied, etc. The intent being to prevent one shotting without eliminating those effects from the game altogether.
It seems like they might have some sort of reverse logic condition track going.

I can't remember where now... but I seem to remember some implication that various effects are dependent on your current hit points. Death spells may only actually kill you if you're below a certain condition threshold. Hold may only slow you down unless you were bloodied, etc. The intent being to prevent one shotting without eliminating those effects from the game altogether.

There were also bonuses that you could only grant yourself (or others) when bloodied.
speculation or not, i really hope it makes it to 4E in one fashion or another... there are a LOT of status conditions in 3.5, and they can be troublesome to track as GM or player... while a singular condition track can't accomodate the entire spectrum of effects, if it were to replace, say, half of them (or at least offer a nice and easy way to adjudicate things that fall into a grey area) then it would be a welcome addition in my book.
As the Condition Track stands now it would not work in D&D (Threshold equal to your Fort defence), because D&D characters are often, especially at higher levels taking 40+ points of damage, so every round people would be zipping down the Track.

As a few others have stated, in the current rules of D&D, the condition track would not work as well, but since we're going into a new version of the rules, of which much might change, the speculation of a condition track is a welcomed one. A simple, elegant system that lets a myriad of penalties all be represented by one chart, speeding up gameplay. In fact, a condition track makes undead that drain levels, still nasty... it would give persistent conditions, instead of making you go forget things that you learned because you lost a level. One of the worst mechanics in D&D IMHO.
In fact, a condition track makes undead that drain levels, still nasty... it would give persistent conditions, instead of making you go forget things that you learned because you lost a level. One of the worst mechanics in D&D IMHO.

Yep, has been since back in the day.

I remember the silliness of 1st edition where characters would kick the crap out of a Type V demon (marilith), but then run away like a bunch of pansies if a wight sauntered up to them, because they didn't want to have a precious level drained.

And some of us remember how long it took to level in 1st edition…
Yep, has been since back in the day.

I remember the silliness of 1st edition where characters would kick the crap out of a Type V demon (marilith), but then run away like a bunch of pansies if a wight sauntered up to them, because they didn't want to have a precious level drained.

And some of us remember how long it took to level in 1st edition…

The nice thing as well is that the condition track can be applied to weapons and armour so that rust monster, as a fighter you'll still fear it. but you won't loose all your gear with ONE lucky hitl
I would like to suppose something else.

What if the Condition Track were to replace how Energy Drain functioned.

What if instead of getting a negative level (-1 on all checks and saves, then another -1 on ability checks--which is everything so it nets -2--and -1 all CL effects) you get a -1 condition step (persistent or not, whatever). So spells like Enervation or supernatural abilities (wight's slam) went there.

Just a thought.
In fact, a condition track makes undead that drain levels, still nasty... it would give persistent conditions, instead of making you go forget things that you learned because you lost a level. One of the worst mechanics in D&D IMHO.

Of all the hints we've been getting about 4e, the confirmation that that particular mechanic is getting defenestrated is the best one I've heard so far.:D
Of all the hints we've been getting about 4e, the confirmation that that particular mechanic is getting defenestrated is the best one I've heard so far.:D

And the worst news as far as I am concerned. The track is my least favorite part of SAGA. I dislike it a lot. It sounds like it will be entrenched in the new 4E system and I really hope it is not. Something that ingrained into a system is hard to be houseruled around, almost enough to deter someone from using a system. Not trying to sound fatalistic or emo but I guess I am coming across that way.

I was just hoping someone would drop in and say, "Oh, it's only speculation so far." Then I go hope it would have no part of 4E.
And the worst news as far as I am concerned. The track is my least favorite part of SAGA. I dislike it a lot. It sounds like it will be entrenched in the new 4E system and I really hope it is not. Something that ingrained into a system is hard to be houseruled around, almost enough to deter someone from using a system. Not trying to sound fatalistic or emo but I guess I am coming across that way.

I was just hoping someone would drop in and say, "Oh, it's only speculation so far." Then I go hope it would have no part of 4E.

It's only speculation so far. Really. There may or may not be a condition track in 4e, and even if there is, it'll probably work differently from the SAGA version.
And the worst news as far as I am concerned. The track is my least favorite part of SAGA.

If it makes you feel better, I have seen no actual evidence that the track will be introduced. And the WotCers have repeatedly stated that they're trying to improve upon existent stuff, and not just copy-pasting.

Meanwhile, they have already confirmed the absence of level draining, so we don't even know if these two are really related.
And the worst news as far as I am concerned. The track is my least favorite part of SAGA. I dislike it a lot.

Just curious, but why don't you like it?
Just curious, but why don't you like it?

I am a fan of "condition tracks" in general. When coupled with the D20 system though it felt clunky and I wasn't happy with the completed product, honestly. I just didn't feel the one used in SAGA was implemented well at all. It needed A LOT of tweaking.

There is "talk" about the lack of proper playtesting of SAGA due to time constraints and what not. This may be the cause if that is true. So we play around with it in my game and in the end we just haven't found a way to make it work well and feel right. It still just feels out of place.
I am a fan of "condition tracks" in general. When coupled with the D20 system though it felt clunky and I wasn't happy with the completed product, honestly. I just didn't feel the one used in SAGA was implemented well at all. It needed A LOT of tweaking.

There is "talk" about the lack of proper playtesting of SAGA due to time constraints and what not. This may be the cause if that is true. So we play around with it in my game and in the end we just haven't found a way to make it work well and feel right. It still just feels out of place.

I've played the SWSE, and not found the condition track 'clunky' or needed any tweaking. Could you elaborate a bit more please? I'm curious to see what you think the pitfalls of the mechanic are? Perhaps something I've overlooked in playing.

Now, as to playtesting of SWSE, well, unfortunately, there wasn't much, perhaps it was a combination of not enough time and (most likely) stipulations for LucasFilm, that they could only have certain people with iron clad NDA's to playtest. When dealing with a licensed property, that could be a large factor. D&D is owned by WotC, so they can do whatever they want playtesting wise.
Now, as to playtesting of SWSE, well, unfortunately, there wasn't much, perhaps it was a combination of not enough time and (most likely) stipulations for LucasFilm

Yep, the whole 30 year anniversary and all of that.

But then again, I think Lucas is now claiming he was the original designer of the d20 system…
Well I'll throw in my 2 cents as well here. I think that a condition track of some sort would be a great thing to have in 4E. There were way too many different conditions in 3E that a player or DM had to keep track of. One simple chart on the side of the character sheet would be easy to use and keep things simple.

Heck, the side of the sheet is where me and the guys I play with end up hand writing condition modifiers anyway, so placing an official chart there just makes sense.

So ya, I would definitely support a condition track in 4E (if votes count for anything at this point).
If it makes you feel better, I have seen no actual evidence that the track will be introduced. And the WotCers have repeatedly stated that they're trying to improve upon existent stuff, and not just copy-pasting.

Meanwhile, they have already confirmed the absence of level draining, so we don't even know if these two are really related.

I don't know... to me, a simplified "level drain" mechanic would work perfectly with a condition track. When you get hit by the level draining undead, your condition tract goes down by one. Simple.
I'm all for some version of a condition track.I feel this way because even the greatest heroes in literature,film,and comics take a licking but keep on ticking.Do they slow down a bit?Yes.Do they have to take a breather?Yes.The "last ounce of strength" is a cliche I'm very happy with.
Well I'll throw in my 2 cents as well here. I think that a condition track of some sort would be a great thing to have in 4E. There were way too many different conditions in 3E that a player or DM had to keep track of. One simple chart on the side of the character sheet would be easy to use and keep things simple.

Heck, the side of the sheet is where me and the guys I play with end up hand writing condition modifiers anyway, so placing an official chart there just makes sense.

So ya, I would definitely support a condition track in 4E (if votes count for anything at this point).

If that's the case, make it so that you can use a paper clip to mark your current condition track.

Thanks to Federation Commander (the beer-and-pretzels version of Star Fleet Battles) for this idea!