Rebate for old 3e book?

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I think it would be nice if WOTC encourage their loyal customer to switch to 4e with a rebate program where you send them back old 3e book and recieve in exange a rebate that can be applied on the purchase of the basic core 4e edition book.

What do you think?
I think it would be nice if WOTC encourage their loyal customer to switch to 4e with a rebate program where you send them back old 3e book and recieve in exange a rebate that can be applied on the purchase of the basic core 4e edition book.

What do you think?

I think you need to share whatever it is you are smoking.
I think it would be nice if WOTC encourage their loyal customer to switch to 4e with a rebate program where you send them back old 3e book and recieve in exange a rebate that can be applied on the purchase of the basic core 4e edition book.

What do you think?

I think you need to learn about ebay. And hurry up, cuz I'd love to pick up some 3rd edition books on the cheap.
I think someone forgot WOTC is a business and not their best friend.

As was said you'll make more money selling them on ebay than in any possible rebate you could convince WOTC to give you. I will be hanging on to mine for a while though considering we don't know what will and won't have conversion (or new version for that matter). I will need the source material to do my own conversions for some time I believe.
I think someone forgot WOTC is a business and not their best friend.

As was said you'll make more money selling them on ebay than in any possible rebate you could convince WOTC to give you. I will be hanging on to mine for a while though considering we don't know what will and won't have conversion (or new version for that matter). I will need the source material to do my own conversions for some time I believe.

But businesses do need to make customers feel like they are appreciated. Obviously, a very high number of customers have been angered by the announcement of 4e. Angry customers hurt any business. So far Hasbro has done very little in the way of responding to this anger. This only adds to the problem, by creating a perception of arrogance. I think a rebate program would be a highly effective way for Hasbro to change this perception.

I hear alot of people remind everyone that Hasbro is in the business of making money, and that is true. But in order to make money people need to feel like their product fulfills a need. So far, I have heard very few people say that 4e fills a need they may have. Maybe their market research tells them something different, but I suspect they have been asking gamers the wrong questions. It seems that they began with the assumption that players want an improved system, and that is just not the case. 3.5 was fine for most people. Hasbro really should have concentrated on finding other needs in the gaming community (such as: quality gaming--easy to use-- software to asssist players and dms, modules, and 'gaming supply kits'.) At the same time, they should have attempted to expand the gaming market to a more general audience (perhaps that is what 4e is an attempt to do--if they are simplifying the rules to that end). As it stands now, the gaming market is limited. But there have been times when RPGs extended beyond a fringe community. In the early 80s many 'non-gamer types' were playing dungeons and dragons. I would think that in the wake of Harry Potter and other such films, this would not be difficult to achieve again. So yes, it is important to keep in mind that the bottom line drives any decision at Hasbro. But right now, they are not even doing that properly. If customers are angry and feel abused by the company, they will not buy its product.
The first time a RPG was replaced by a new edition was pretty much 30 years ago, when AD&D 1st came out. Since then, we have had Gurps 4th, Shadowrun 4th, the big WoD Apocalypse, ... Newer Winter Nights 2, Final Fantasy XIII, 6th generation iPod, Windows Vista, Ferrari F430 and the Gilette Mach3 Turbo.

I don't know under what blanket you've been hiding to miss the simple fact that companies regularly update their product lines.

Now, what you are whining about is a product that does not require you to buy a new computer, not even a new graphics card, that does not include a non-replacable battery that forces you to buy a new product in 3 years, that works just with the basic set and you don't have to buy replacements after just one week, and that costs less than $30.

They'll even put up the key parts online, for free, and you can use all your old products and most of the supplementary stuff (dice, miniatures). Ever tried to use the old PC connector cable with your new cell phone?

Sorry, but comparing to what we are used in other industry sectors, WotC is pretty fair. Remember that the next time you try to get blades for your old razor.
But businesses do need to make customers feel like they are appreciated..

I think they could do this. Given the cost of dealing with all those returned books, it would be feasible to give a $5 discount when a 3E PHB was returned just by increasing the cost of the books to $40.

Even doing so, the game stores wouldn't be interested in dealing with the returned books (and the mass market stores even less).
But businesses do need to make customers feel like they are appreciated. Obviously, a very high number of customers have been angered by the announcement of 4e. Angry customers hurt any business. So far Hasbro has done very little in the way of responding to this anger. This only adds to the problem, by creating a perception of arrogance. I think a rebate program would be a highly effective way for Hasbro to change this perception.

I hear alot of people remind everyone that Hasbro is in the business of making money, and that is true. But in order to make money people need to feel like their product fulfills a need. So far, I have heard very few people say that 4e fills a need they may have. Maybe their market research tells them something different, but I suspect they have been asking gamers the wrong questions. It seems that they began with the assumption that players want an improved system, and that is just not the case. 3.5 was fine for most people. Hasbro really should have concentrated on finding other needs in the gaming community (such as: quality gaming--easy to use-- software to asssist players and dms, modules, and 'gaming supply kits'.) At the same time, they should have attempted to expand the gaming market to a more general audience (perhaps that is what 4e is an attempt to do--if they are simplifying the rules to that end). As it stands now, the gaming market is limited. But there have been times when RPGs extended beyond a fringe community. In the early 80s many 'non-gamer types' were playing dungeons and dragons. I would think that in the wake of Harry Potter and other such films, this would not be difficult to achieve again. So yes, it is important to keep in mind that the bottom line drives any decision at Hasbro. But right now, they are not even doing that properly. If customers are angry and feel abused by the company, they will not buy its product.

And lets not make the assumption that because you are angered that everyone else is, or should be. We all know that malcontents always scream the loudest, especially on the interwebs. It isnt as if there are angry villagers storming WotC HQ with pitchforks and torches.
The first printing of D&D 3rd was $10 cheaper than the second printing (and all other printings). I can only assume WOTC will do the same thing all over again.

On a rebate program besides getting less money per book they would also have to pay for whatever they decide to do with the books they get back. Dumping in a city dump costs money, A LOT of money for those who don't know. Storage costs money although I don't know why they would want to keep those books. So they lose even more money dealing with this horde of old books that people sent back in.

I foresee them making the first printing cheaper again because that makes much, much more sense and builds the good feelings you folks are looking for.
And lets not make the assumption that because you are angered that everyone else is, or should be. We all know that malcontents always scream the loudest, especially on the interwebs. It isnt as if there are angry villagers storming WotC HQ with pitchforks and torches.

But this is what I am hearing from everyone I know who plays the game. I do not know a single player who isn't angry. I am sure there are some out there who are happy a new edition is coming out. But my anger is far form unique.
I don't know any players who are angry. Arguments from personal experience aren't very useful
I think it would be nice if WOTC encourage their loyal customer to switch to 4e with a rebate program where you send them back old 3e book and recieve in exange a rebate that can be applied on the purchase of the basic core 4e edition book.

What do you think?

The suggestion is so ridiculous I can't quite believe I'm responding to it, but one additional point, besides all the obvious reasons why it's dumb:

Even if WotC did lose their minds and offer such a program, it would be foolish to participate in it. Your 3.5 books will not, in any meaningful sense, be rendered useless by 4E, no matter how often or loudly people shout otherwise. There will be people still running 3E games - quite a lot of them, by the arguments of some of the very same people making the suggestion! - and you [i]would/I] feel like quite a twit if you had an opportunity to play in one and couldn't because you traded in your books.

Is it too much to ask that people think a bit before posting suggestions like this?
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
I don't know any players who are angry. Arguments from personal experience aren't very useful

Personal experience is pretty much all anyone has on the subject of role playing. I would say being part of a thriving gaming community is a good basis for forming an opinion on anything that impacts that community. Sure, a logical proof cannot be formed from a single personal experience. But you can form an impression of how people respond to a given event through personal experience.
The suggestion is so ridiculous I can't quite believe I'm responding to it, but one additional point, besides all the obvious reasons why it's dumb:

Even if WotC did lose their minds and offer such a program, it would be foolish to participate in it. Your 3.5 books will not, in any meaningful sense, be rendered useless by 4E, no matter how often or loudly people shout otherwise. There will be people still running 3E games - quite a lot of them, by the arguments of some of the very same people making the suggestion! - and you [i]would/I] feel like quite a twit if you had an opportunity to play in one and couldn't because you traded in your books.

Is it too much to ask that people think a bit before posting suggestions like this?

Using 2e as an analogue. you are simply wrong. SO few people will be playing 3e that those books will effectively be useless for most people.
Using 2e as an analogue. you are simply wrong. SO few people will be playing 3e that those books will effectively be useless for most people.

I'd actually have an easier time finding an active 2E game back home than an active 3E one, if not for the fact that I always go ahead and start the latter myself.

It is not impossible, or even difficult, to find older-edition games, and if you're willing to run one (and reputed to be a decent GM), even easier to find players for one if you wish to start one yourself. I don't know what experience you might have had that suggests anything different, but mine (in three different cities spread all over North America) suggests that you are one who is "simply wrong".
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
I'd actually have an easier time finding an active 2E game back home than an active 3E one, if not for the fact that I always go ahead and start the latter myself.

It is not impossible, or even difficult, to find older-edition games, and if you're willing to run one (and reputed to be a decent GM), even easier to find players for one if you wish to start one yourself. I don't know what experience you might have had that suggests anything different, but mine (in three different cities spread all over North America) suggests that you are one who is "simply wrong".

Then our experiences are very different. I have gamed actively in my city for over 15 years. I have also traveled thoughout the northeast area to conventions, larps and just to play; people will happily play 3e, but not 2e. Maybe you travel in different circles, but have only been able to get people to play 2e on two occasions. I think its natural. No one wants to play a dead system.
No one wants to play a dead system.

If by "dead system" you mean "awkward, clunky system that's best asset is nostalgia", then yes.

Otherwise you're completely ignoring the fact that classic Battletech, and Man o'War both have relatively thriving communities. And people still play Rolemaster, in the darkened corners of the grad-schools and game stores. Could Call of C'thulhu D20 obliterate classic CoC? No.

But ultimately, people play what they like more. People prefer 3E because it's a more pleasurable experience - for most people - than 2E. The mechanics, presentation, and organization make for a more seamless game. But it's not perfect.

And if 4E lands with a thud instead of a splash, it'll be easier to find 3.5 games than 4E.
If by "dead system" you mean "awkward, clunky system that's best asset is nostalgia", then yes.

Otherwise you're completely ignoring the fact that classic Battletech, and Man o'War both have relatively thriving communities. And people still play Rolemaster, in the darkened corners of the grad-schools and game stores. Could Call of C'thulhu D20 obliterate classic CoC? No.

But ultimately, people play what they like more. People prefer 3E because it's a more pleasurable experience - for most people - than 2E. The mechanics, presentation, and organization make for a more seamless game. But it's not perfect.

And if 4E lands with a thud instead of a splash, it'll be easier to find 3.5 games than 4E.

I am not sure 3e beat out 2e in terms of quality. The reason people stopped playing 2e is because there was nothing new for it.
The reason people stopped playing 2e is because there was nothing new for it.

When was the last Chess expansion?

(Hint: never.)
When was the last Chess expansion?

(Hint: never.)

That's a horrible analogy.

One is a game where new versions have been put out and we're comparing the play levels of each version. For all intents and purposes there is only one version of chess. So there are no variations to compare.

Horrible, horribly analogy.

I have traveled a bit and I have been places where 2E is played religiously, where 3E is played religiously and where both can be found. Personal experience is the only condition that contains merit in this situation and if either of you found it either way then you just haven't visited enough places yet. Even at Gen Con 07 I found groups of all denominations in the crowd.
That's a horrible analogy.

It really isn't. If a game is fun, it will thrive. People didn't play 2E because they were excited about the new supplements and adventures being produced. They played 2E because there was nothing they'd prefer to play at the time.

But if it makes you feel better, you can compare classic Battletech to Mechwarrior. Nothing new has been released for Battletech (unless you count the re-issued material), and it's arguably more popular than Mechwarrior with its constant expansions and bloated rules-set.
When was the last Chess expansion?

(Hint: never.)

Hmm was Pawn takes Pawn En passant in orignial rules or added later?
When was the last Chess expansion?

(Hint: never.)

Or 2002, depending on how you define such things. linky Actually, if the wiki page is any indication, variant chess rules, expansions, and updates is as alive as any competition. Heck, there was an attempt to make the 3d chess board from Star Trek a viable game.
The first time a RPG was replaced by a new edition was pretty much 30 years ago, when AD&D 1st came out. Since then, we have had Gurps 4th, Shadowrun 4th, the big WoD Apocalypse, ... Newer Winter Nights 2, Final Fantasy XIII, 6th generation iPod, Windows Vista, Ferrari F430 and the Gilette Mach3 Turbo.

I don't know under what blanket you've been hiding to miss the simple fact that companies regularly update their product lines.

Now, what you are whining about is a product that does not require you to buy a new computer, not even a new graphics card, that does not include a non-replacable battery that forces you to buy a new product in 3 years, that works just with the basic set and you don't have to buy replacements after just one week, and that costs less than $30.

They'll even put up the key parts online, for free, and you can use all your old products and most of the supplementary stuff (dice, miniatures). Ever tried to use the old PC connector cable with your new cell phone?

Sorry, but comparing to what we are used in other industry sectors, WotC is pretty fair. Remember that the next time you try to get blades for your old razor.

Now some rules will change, so you can't use *all* stuff ;) :P But in general I agree with mkill here.

Let's not forget the fact that you need not buy it... as with computer games that is. I don't have NWN2 for instance, though I do have NWN (don't even have the upgrades... I mean I need to divide time over matter as well you know ;))
I am not sure 3e beat out 2e in terms of quality. The reason people stopped playing 2e is because there was nothing new for it.

I beg to differ. My entire gaming guild switched en masse to 3rd edition because we couldn't stand the 2nd edition rules. The system is just the system. It's not going to affect the story told by the DM regardless, so the version doesn't really matter. If people are upset because they won't be able to build a half-dragon monk variant that came from some weird sourcebook in the new rules, there's nothing I can do about that, but all of the people I play with would be perfectly satisfied with the ability to reinvent their character concept in a new system.

In fact, I would state the opposite of your statement. It is because a lot of the new material make the game bloated and unwieldy (especially the crappy Skills & Powers stuff that everybody wanted to use) that made the new version so inviting. And it's one of the reasons I am interested in switched to 4e. Every once in a while it's just good to have a reset, and start from scratch, and 3rd edition has reached that critical mass, just as 2nd edition did before 3rd came out.
Yes, I am a defender apologist. A Rock and a Hard Place: A Warden Handbook
I beg to differ. My entire gaming guild switched en masse to 3rd edition because we couldn't stand the 2nd edition rules.

Personally, I'm surprised this movement wasn't even more widespread than it was, but as I've said a lot of people in my hometown didn't switch. I've yet to hear any of them explain why in terms of any genuine merits the 2nd Edition rules as written had as compared to what actually is in the 3E books, but that doesn't change the fact that it's what happened.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
I am not sure 3e beat out 2e in terms of quality. The reason people stopped playing 2e is because there was nothing new for it.

I stopped playing 2e because the system is clunky and annoying, not because there's nothing new for it.

If that were true, I'd have never started playing Palladium Fantasy.
3.x edition book won't be useless when 4th comes out. BUT if you wish to switch from 3.x to 4th then such a program would be real nice for the loyal customers.
I stopped playing 2e because the system is clunky and annoying, not because there's nothing new for it.

If that were true, I'd have never started playing Palladium Fantasy.

I'm confused by this post. I thought Palladium Fantasy was getting the occasional new product, and Palladium's system pretty much defines "clunky and annoying" for me (even when compared to 2E), so I'm not quite sure what you're actually saying about it.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
3.x edition book won't be useless when 4th comes out. BUT if you wish to switch from 3.x to 4th then such a program would be real nice for the loyal customers.

Switching your active playing to 4E still doesn't mean there's no use for your old 3.x books. They remain perfectly good idea mines; this is especially true for setting books and the likes but it seems to me it's true even of things like the PH.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
I'm confused by this post. I thought Palladium Fantasy was getting the occasional new product, and Palladium's system pretty much defines "clunky and annoying" for me (even when compared to 2E), so I'm not quite sure what you're actually saying about it.

Nothing new has come out for Palladium Fantasy and, well, my GM at the time really wanted to play Palladium Fantasy.

For the record, I hate the system. Great ideas, terrible mechanics.
While your at it, could you get sony to give me a rebate on my DVD player when I go to get a Blue Ray player?

Seriously, find a gameing store like The Great Escape or whatever you have in your city and sell your old books. There's your rebate. I got over 200 bucks for my 3.5 books, which basically means 4.0 isn't going to cost me anything for a while.
Other than the fact that this is very unlikely to happen: It really isn't as crazy as you all make it sound.
Frankly, I wouldn't give my 3.5 books away for a 4th Ed. version, but if they did it and it people actually took them up on it, I could imagine it being a working model for WOTC. It would be both a good gesture (yey, good feelings), as well as cementing the change someone made. Once they gave away their 3.5 PHB the likelihood of them switching to 4th Ed goes up by quite a bit...
As to the cost of taking on the books, yes, that exists, but is nothing compared to e.g. the cost of scrapping a car when someone offers a trade in that isn't worth doing up.
But yes, I think mainly the logistics and the low level of uptake would count this out. Even for those looking to get rid of their 3.5 materials I think most people will assume that they'll be able to get more on ebay.
Other than the fact that this is very unlikely to happen: It really isn't as crazy as you all make it sound.
Frankly, I wouldn't give my 3.5 books away for a 4th Ed. version, but if they did it and it people actually took them up on it, I could imagine it being a working model for WOTC. It would be both a good gesture (yey, good feelings), as well as cementing the change someone made. Once they gave away their 3.5 PHB the likelihood of them switching to 4th Ed goes up by quite a bit...
As to the cost of taking on the books, yes, that exists, but is nothing compared to e.g. the cost of scrapping a car when someone offers a trade in that isn't worth doing up.
But yes, I think mainly the logistics and the low level of uptake would count this out. Even for those looking to get rid of their 3.5 materials I think most people will assume that they'll be able to get more on ebay.

Plus, this also begs the question, what would they do with the books once they get all of them? They'd end up with a bunch of old books, some in poor condition and with notes, Mountain Dew, and Doritos crumbs all over the inside, and no way to get rid of them.
Yes, I am a defender apologist. A Rock and a Hard Place: A Warden Handbook
They wont do a rebate on old 3e books because it would cause them to lose money. All they could do is recycle them. Which would probably still be cost ineffective.

Anyway, onto the other major subject featured in this thread. 3e vs. 4e.

First off, I would like to say this. Give them a chance. The people at WotC who are making this new edition are gamers themselves. I think they did a good job when the converted from 2e to 3e. It is quite possible 4e will be a better game than 3e. So give it a chance before you judge it.

Second, 3e was a vast improvement over 2e, so I dont think you are going to have alot of trouble finding people to play 3e games. At least for a while. Me personally, I plan on keeping all my books. I have quite a bit of memories tied up in them. That and I am sure that some of them wont be converted to 4e, at least not for a while.

Basically, enjoy what you are still playing, 3e is still quite fun. And keep an open mind about 4e. You might find that you like it.
Plus, this also begs the question, what would they do with the books once they get all of them? They'd end up with a bunch of old books, some in poor condition and with notes, Mountain Dew, and Doritos crumbs all over the inside, and no way to get rid of them.

I think they could sell them on ebay.
One thing to note: If the books cost $40, Wizards doesn't get $40 for each book (they get far less), and offering a $5 discount for trade-ins (which also require the extra cost of shipping, handling, then either destruction/recycling, or attempting to resell them on the secondary market) will cut into the profit for the books (which are always the number one sellers for any addition).
One thing to note: If the books cost $40, Wizards doesn't get $40 for each book (they get far less), and offering a $5 discount for trade-ins (which also require the extra cost of shipping, handling, then either destruction/recycling, or attempting to resell them on the secondary market) will cut into the profit for the books (which are always the number one sellers for any addition).

Do you work in the publishing industry?
Do you work in the publishing industry?

Is it relevant? All he's done is state obvious or well-known facts, or things easily derived from same by simple logic.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Do you work in the publishing industry?

Doesn't matter whether I do.

What matters is that I know facts that are available to anyone who bothers to take the time to learn.

It also involves very simple math when you look at it logically. If Wizards is making $40 off of a $40 book, then how are the distributors and retailers making any money?

Or are you trying to debate that shipping a lot of books (which will cost a hefty amount on it's own) costs money (which will further cut down the money made on fourth)? Or the fact that a simple $5 on 100,000 books equates to a $500,000 loss for the company?

I'm curious to know why I need to be in publishing to exercise common sense.
If Wizards is making $40 off of a $40 book, then how are the distributors and retailers making any money?

Volume?