'Abusing' 3D -- get over it.

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I've seen several threads now about the 'abuse' of three dimensions and how 'a sane DM would never tolerate blah blah blah'.

The game is meant to function in three-dimensions. This means that you can fire flame bursts into melee if you target a huge monster's head, create unescapable traps with Storm Pillar, and teleport drop opponents.

This is a tabletop RPG, not Diablo 2. If you can't handle something as simple this then you shouldn't be DMing nor playing a controller.
If the players do it, so can the monsters.

*I originally thought it was a clever title, but apparently i was wrong.

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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

If the players do it, so can the monsters.

Completely agreed. In fact, I doubt any players who utilize 3D tactics would argue that point, though it does bear mentioning as an argument for DMs who think it's "cheesy" and refuse to allow it.

First of all, player cleverness should not be discouraged and 3D tactics adds another layer to encounters.

Secondly, it's not game breaking if the monsters do it too. As a DM nobody's forcing you to constantly use Brutes and Soldiers. Use Controllers and Artillery more frequently, and heck you can even design the terrain such that monsters gain an advantage by using 3D tactics. More options = more fun.

Finally, 3D combat is implicit in 4E! How else can you have underwater and aerial combats? The 3rd dimension doesn't simply disappear during a "normal" fight on solid ground. Indeed, any character can jump over difficult terrain with an athletics check, climb ladders, fly with certain powers, etc. and so I really can't see a logical argument for banning "cheesy" 3D tactics.
I there something that prevents combat from being 3d? I don't understand, I've been running everything 3d from day 1... What's the abuse?

Is it targeting above large creatures to avoid allies with AoE's? If that's the abuse, I'm not terribly worried. Large creatures already take up a good bit of space and are easy enough to catch without allies getting in the way.

I've run aerial combat, combat on the side of a cliff edge, played on rooftops, fought mounted combatants, etc. Even a simple staircase or a balcony make combat 3d, and I couldn't imagine it otherwise.
I've run aerial combat, combat on the side of a cliff edge, played on rooftops, fought mounted combatants, etc. Even a simple staircase or a balcony make combat 3d, and I couldn't imagine it otherwise.

Absolutely agree.

And yes, teleporting PCs 20' up into the air, so that they fall on a fire pit, is something I have done as a judge :D
Absolutely agree.

And yes, teleporting PCs 20' up into the air, so that they fall on a fire pit, is something I have done as a judge :D

As a judge, you've gone against the game rules unless this wasn't 4E. By the 4E RAW, you can't force teleport an enemy into a square that it couldn't get to without walking and vertical forced movement is also debatable.
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As a judge, you've gone against the game rules unless this wasn't 4E. By the 4E RAW, you can't force teleport an enemy into a square that it couldn't get to without walking and vertical forced movement is also debatable.

What's a judge and what does it do to prevent him from doing it? Because as far as I can tell, under the normal teleportation rules, there's nothing to stop it, so I'm assuming it's something in the judge part that prevents it.
Judges ride Chocobos and teleport you into the slammer if you break the rules.

They must be on loan from Square-Enix! Everybody knows WotC uses ninjas!
Forced teleportation might fall under "forced movement" through RAI rather the RAW, as specific teleportation that are attacks have the damage listed as part of the power.
As a judge, you've gone against the game rules unless this wasn't 4E. By the 4E RAW, you can't force teleport an enemy into a square that it couldn't get to without walking and vertical forced movement is also debatable.

The only RAW part about teleport regarding where you can not teleport is a square that you can't be in without squeezing. As long as you have line of sight -- yes, even if it's teleporting through a keyhole -- you can teleport to a given spot.

So yes you can teleport enemies 20 feet into the air and cause them to land into a fire pit. Whether or not you add the fall damage is your call as a DM/judge as they would still take damage regardless.
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By the 4E RAW, you can't force teleport an enemy into a square that it couldn't get to without walking and vertical forced movement is also debatable.

Hunh?

It's possible you're confusing this with the forced movement rules (that might explain your comment about vertical movement).

But even then you're not right. You can push/pull/slide creatures off of ledges (into say a deep pit that they can't get to with walking) so that they take falling damage -- they just get a save.

Or maybe you're confusing this with the general rule that states you must be able to see the destination square that you teleport to? There are some specific powers that over-rule this, but the general rule is that you must be able to see where you're teleporting to. But that doesn't mean you need to be able to reach it by walking.
PHB 285
Whether you’re pulling, pushing, or sliding a target,
certain rules govern all forced movement.
FORCED MOVEMENT
...
✦ Clear Path: Forced movement can’t move a target
into a space it couldn’t enter by walking.
The target
can’t be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze
into a space.
...

So, since the target cannot walk into a square 20' up into the middle of the air, you cannot force move them there. The reason you can slide someone off a cliff is because the target can walk into the square just off the cliff.

Some may claim that the above rule only applies to slides, pushes and pulls, but it says "certain rules govern all forced movement. So, the only way you can teleport someone into the air is if they could walk from there current location to the destination square or if you don't consider teleporting an enemy as forced movement.
Proud member of The Knights of WTF: ‎"All hail the Knights of WTF!!! Armed with only the Armor of Reason and the Sword of Mechanical Understanding we march!!"
First of all, player cleverness should not be discouraged

That is a sentiment that seems to be in the minority on this site, but I agree 100% let the DM that can't adapt step down, and let the game be of epic proportions.
Some may claim that the above rule only applies to slides, pushes and pulls, but it says "certain rules govern all forced movement.

I don't even know what that means.

Where does it say that teleportation is forced movement? What you're doing is cobbling together two words (forced and movement one of which isn't defined by the rules) and claiming that since the activity fits both terms it somehow retroactively becomes forced movement.

If I order a dominated creature to teleport himself over a cliff, is that forced movement? Is it?
PHB 285
Whether you’re pulling, pushing, or sliding a target,
certain rules govern all forced movement.
FORCED MOVEMENT
...
✦ Clear Path: Forced movement can’t move a target
into a space it couldn’t enter by walking.
The target
can’t be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze
into a space.
...

I'm not seeing how a teleport power fits under pulling, pushing or sliding a target. The target ceases to be one place and is instead in another place. By your logic, would a player not be able to teleport out of a jail cell with bars running from floor to ceiling because they couldn't walk out?

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I don't even know what that means.

Where does it say that teleportation is forced movement? What you're doing is cobbling together two words (forced and movement one of which isn't defined by the rules) and claiming that since the activity fits both terms it somehow retroactively becomes forced movement.

If I order a dominated creature to teleport himself over a cliff, is that forced movement? Is it?

It should be considered as such, as that's how the game is designed.
It should be considered as such, as that's how the game is designed.

Based on what? How is the game designed in a way that it prevents this?
Based on what? How is the game designed in a way that it prevents this?

Elemental Maw.

Powers which teleport enemies are not designed such that they are fair if you teleport the monster however many squares straight up in the air and then make them take that falling damage, nor for automatically dealing damage via terrain features. It applies to both PC and monster powers.
First of all, just because a power is problematic if used in a certain way doesn't mean that the rules underlying it are unsound, nor does that mean that a fix for the rule gets (or needs to be) retroactively applied to all other instances. If Elemental Maw is broken because of falling, then either Elemental Maw needs to be fixed (a clause that says can't teleport someone more than 2 squares above or below you), or there needs to be an errata for teleporting. It doesn't mean that teleporting is suddenly forced movement and we can dust our hands off. That's lazy and subjective.

Secondly, it is definitely design intent for people to force critters into dangerous terrain.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20090220

Q: Can you slide a target multiple times (by using a warlock's diabolic grasp or harrowstorm powers) into a wizard's wall of fire for iterative damage?
A: There are several factors to take into consideration here. First, a target must move into the wall's space—that is, moving into every square of that space does not inflict iterative damage. However, if a target moves into the wall's space, then back out, and then back in again, it will take more damage; but remember, entering each square occupied by the wall costs 3 extra squares of movement (which might be possible with a high-level use of a harrowstorm).

The real issue might be with clarification of the word "move," especially as it interacts with push/pull/slide effects.

There are other odd bits about treating teleport as forced movement. For example, with forced movement you can save to drop prone before entering hindering terrain. So if you teleport an enemy into hindering terrain can they try dropping to the ground to negate the teleport entirely?

Also consider that even if you count teleport attacks as forced movement, those restrictions don't apply to voluntary teleportation. This creates some weird inconsistencies. You can teleport yourself through bars (as another poster mentioned), across a 2 square pit, or up 1 square onto a ledge, but you can't do that if you teleport another?

Does teleporting an ally count as a "forced teleport"? There are plenty of powers that slide and ally, so you can use "forced" movement on allies.

On a side note, does the "nowhere you can't walk" technically mean a swimming target is immune to forced movement as they can't "walk anywhere". I'd imagine most DM's will just treat it as "walk or swim".

As for aiming over the head of your party at large creatures, I'm surprised it's such an issue for some folks. Fireballing over an allies head has been part of the game since first edition, when the mechanics of said fireball where far less forgiving of miscalculations.
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The game is meant to function in three-dimensions.

I wish it was. But it's pretty obvious that the rules for 3D combat were slapped on almost as an afterthought. 3D combat is poorly supported, badly designed, and not balanced.

3D combat immediately becomes strange and cheesy. Some powers become instantly horribly overpowered if you allow 'into the air' teleportation. There are few house-rules you can implement to return a modicum of sanity, but they're not in the RAW.

I'm not saying that teleporting someone 20 squares upwards isn't RAW. It is - that's the problem. What it isn't, is RAI. And only fools play with RAW when it's hopelessly broken and conflicts with the obvious RAI.
I wish it was. But it's pretty obvious that the rules for 3D combat were slapped on almost as an afterthought. 3D combat is poorly supported, badly designed, and not balanced.

3D combat immediately becomes strange and cheesy. Some powers become instantly horribly overpowered if you allow 'into the air' teleportation. There are few house-rules you can implement to return a modicum of sanity, but they're not in the RAW.

I'm not saying that teleporting someone 20 squares upwards isn't RAW. It is - that's the problem. What it isn't, is RAI. And only fools play with RAW when it's hopelessly broken and conflicts with the obvious RAI.

Given that you need to teleport a target two vertical squares for an extra 1d10+prone (which targets get a free skill check to mitigate if they're Acrobatics trained) you need some pretty heavy teleportation to milk more than just a token of extra damage out of it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd milk those 1-2 d10 every single time I could, but they don't really strike me as game ending extra dice.

In the desert
I saw a creature, naked, bestial,
who, squatting upon the ground,
held his heart in his hands, and ate of it.
I said, "is it good, friend?"
"It is bitter – bitter," he answered;
"but I like it,
"beacuase it is bitter,
"and because it is my heart."

Don't get me wrong, I'd milk those 1-2 d10 every single time I could, but they don't really strike me as game ending extra dice.

What about 20 squares? Still not broken?

(And even with shorter teleports, effectively adding "+Xd10 damage and drop target prone" to the text of every forced teleportation spell is badly overpowered in itself.)
When you're immobilised you can't move, but you can still teleport. Therefore I would rule teleporting is not forced movement unless you can find an explicit declaration of such in a WotC product (Customer Service would suffice, although people can get two opposite answers for the same question).

I'll also add most monster teleporting powers say you cannot teleport someone into an unsafe square. This would suggest any teleporting power that doesn't say this doesn't have this restriction.

I'll also add this quote to the discussion
Challenging Terrain: Forced movement can make some powers more effective or hinder them, depending on the specific challenging terrain. The DM can require the target of forced movement to make a check as if it were moving voluntarily across the terrain, with the same consequence for failure.

But for this to work, you would have 20 squares free above you. Hard to realize while in a cramped dungeon. By the way, a Level 25 Daily Power should have a kind of oomph, shouldn't it?

I play a control wizard in mid-paragon and absolutely love Twist in Space. It lets me reposition my allies, teleport enemies into the air, just to let them land at the feet of my companions, right in a delightful flank.

It did never occur to us, that this could not be allowed, as it is still in no way gamebreaking. Just a very nice control effect, that sucks if your dungeon is only 3 meters (2 squares) high.
When you're immobilised you can't move, but you can still teleport. Therefore I would rule teleporting is not forced movement.

While your conclusion is RAW, the argument itself makes no sense. When you're immobilized you can't move, but you can still teleport, and you can still be forcibly moved. This has no bearing whatsoever on whether forced teleports are forced movement.

The reason a forced teleport isn't a forced move by RAW is that Forced Movement has a clearly defined list of what it consists of, namely pushes, pulls and slides.

I'll also add most monster teleporting powers say you cannot teleport someone into an unsafe square. This would suggest any teleporting power that doesn't say this doesn't have this restriction.

Honestly, that's a totally extravagant reading of the rules text. If power A says something and power B doesn't, you can't claim that this something doesn't apply to B just because it's exluded there. Wizards simply don't write their rules and powers with this kind of stringency. They frequently include redundant information in powers, attempting (not always successfully) to clarify.

I'll also add this quote to the discussion

What does that quote have to do with the matter at hand?
I'm not getting into the forced teleport argument.

As for vertical targetting, I'd like to remind people that in 3.5 you could, in a sufficiently open battlefield, aim the center of a fireball up to different altitudes to change the radius of the cross-sectoin of the sphere that was on the primary plane of combat, so that in a combat in a relatively open area you could plant either a 20' radius, 15' radius or 5' radius circle of fiery damage on the board. 4e's firecubes are much less abusable.
But for this to work, you would have 20 squares free above you. Hard to realize while in a cramped dungeon. By the way, a Level 25 Daily Power should have a kind of oomph, shouldn't it?

A big area effect that does 10d10 extra points of damage, on top of the original damage (not to mention prone)? Resulting in a power that's totally out of whack with the general power design? Compare this to Striker powers of those levels.

If they wanted you to be able to this, they would have mentioned it, I think. I agree that it's RAW, but surely you don't think it's RAI?

There's oomph, and then there is totally borken.

I play a control wizard in mid-paragon and absolutely love Twist in Space. It lets me reposition my allies, teleport enemies into the air, just to let them land at the feet of my companions, right in a delightful flank.

Twist in Space is already the best L7 Wizard power. Adding that kind of bonuses to it makes it highly overpowered. I'd love it too, if I got to use it that way! :P

Look, you have the choice between two interpretations. One of them results in some powers being grossly overpowered. Even if that interpretation is technically RAW, which one is the better to actually use? (A lot of things are RAW, including ways to get infinite damage or infinite actions. That doesn't mean they should be allowed in the game.)
Honestly, that's a totally extravagant reading of the rules text.

I'm fairly certain the powers says that almost verbatim.

They frequently include redundant information in powers, attempting (not always successfully) to clarify.

True. However the information isn't redundant as it doesn't say you can't teleport someone into an unsafe square anywhere else.

What does that quote have to do with the matter at hand?

A DM can force you to move into "challenging terrain" for example, a rickety bridge that requires a DC 20 acrobatics check or else you fall off and take whatever damage the fall incurs. This would suggest if you can teleport someone vertically, they take the falling damage (others have suggested they wouldn't).

Look, you have the choice between two interpretations. One of them results in some powers being grossly overpowered. Even if that interpretation is technically RAW, which one is the better to actually use? (A lot of things are RAW, including ways to get infinite damage or infinite actions. That doesn't mean they should be allowed in the game.)

I'm a pretty big proponent for RAI. But in this case I just don't see the foundation on which people are basing their "intended" interpretation.
A DM can force you to move into "challenging terrain" for example, a rickety bridge that requires a DC 20 acrobatics check or else you fall off and take whatever damage the fall incurs. This would suggest if you can teleport someone vertically, they take the falling damage (others have suggested they wouldn't).

That text was about forced movement. Didn't you just say teleportation isn't forced movement?

Anyway, I'm not convinced that open air qualifies as 'terrain'.

By the way, has anyone actually claimed that yes, you would be teleported up, but no, you wouldn't take any falling damage?!

I'm a pretty big proponent for RAI. But in this case I just don't see the foundation on which people are basing their "intended" interpretation.

Put it like this: Do you think that the designers intended Maw of Chaos should do an additional 10d10 + prone? If they did, don't you think they would have mentioned it? Do you think that this is balanced against other powers in the PHB (such as the high-end Striker weapon powers doing 7W against single targets)?

My proposed fix (and house-rule, if I DM'd), would be to either forbid forced vertical teleportation, or to add a "requires a surface" clause for the target square (possibly even "stable surface", although that would stop people from teleporting monsters into lava or acid, which might be good or bad depending on your views).
I wish it was. But it's pretty obvious that the rules for 3D combat were slapped on almost as an afterthought. 3D combat is poorly supported, badly designed, and not balanced.

Well said.
I'm a pretty big proponent for RAI. But in this case I just don't see the foundation on which people are basing their "intended" interpretation.

Oh, that's easy. Take a look at the L7 wizard power Twist Of Space. Note that (1) it targets will, and (2) it stacks with Enlarge Spell. Now compare this to other powers of the same level. Now consider honestly, what would be a more balanced effect for this power:

(a) 1d6+int damage + slowed
(b) 1d6+3d10+int damage + slowed + prone
Put it like this: Do you think that the designers intended Maw of Chaos should do an additional 10d10 + prone? If they did, don't you think they would have mentioned it? Do you think that this is balanced against other powers in the PHB (such as the high-end Striker weapon powers doing 7W against single targets)?

That still doesn't make teleportation forced movement. You're making an argument from adverse consequences, when you should be clamouring for a fix for individual powers or to the teleport mechanic in itself.
That still doesn't make teleportation forced movement. You're making an argument from adverse consequences, when you should be clamouring for a fix for individual powers or to the teleport mechanic in itself.

Put it like this: there is nothing in the manuals that says that you can teleport creatures into mid-air. Therefore you can't.

This is similar to how the manuals don't specify that you can put a blocked square somewhere on the map just because you feel like it (hint: you can't do that, either).
That still doesn't make teleportation forced movement. You're making an argument from adverse consequences, when you should be clamouring for a fix for individual powers or to the teleport mechanic in itself.

I'm not saying it's forced movement - it's not. By pure, stupid RAW, all the abuses people mention in this thread are probably legit. I'm saying it should be fixed. Handling it as forced movement would solve some of the problems, but it may not be the best solution (for instance, it seems reasonable to think that you should be able to teleport Restrained targets, something that the Forced Movement fix would stop).

And what I want isn't a fix to specific powers, but an addendum to the Teleportation description in PHB II. All we need is a quick line like "the target square must have a surface". If you like, add "...that is capable of supporting the target."
What about 20 squares? Still not broken?

(And even with shorter teleports, effectively adding "+Xd10 damage and drop target prone" to the text of every forced teleportation spell is badly overpowered in itself.)

Running through the compendium there's only a hand full of powers that powers that teleport an opponent further than 5 squares without a restriction like "adjacent to you."

Elemental Maw is the only one that really, really stands out, and the easy majority of these spells belong to Wizards, Swordmages, and Warlocks (Feylocks at that). Hell, I think some people would say "+Xd10 damage and drop target prone" to the text of every Feylock forced teleportation spell is a needed buff!

In the desert
I saw a creature, naked, bestial,
who, squatting upon the ground,
held his heart in his hands, and ate of it.
I said, "is it good, friend?"
"It is bitter – bitter," he answered;
"but I like it,
"beacuase it is bitter,
"and because it is my heart."

Some may claim that the above rule only applies to slides, pushes and pulls, but it says "certain rules govern all forced movement.

And all forced movement refers to the specific 4e rules term called forced movement which encompasses push, pull, and slide. It doesn't refer to the colloquial use of the term
Put it like this: there is nothing in the manuals that says that you can teleport creatures into mid-air. Therefore you can't.

Actually this is one of the rare cases when it's exactly the other way round. Because there is already the precedent of some teleporting powers specifically stating that this power can't teleport into the air. Thus all powers who do not specifically state this limitation can do it
It should be considered as such, as that's how the game is designed.

I agree that it should, but by RAW it isn't. It's indeed something I would agree that it needs to be adressed (whether through FAQ, update, whatever)
Put it like this: there is nothing in the manuals that says that you can teleport creatures into mid-air. Therefore you can't.

The manuals don't say you can pet kittens either. Or breathe. Lack of permission is not the same as denial of permission.
Elemental Maw.

Powers which teleport enemies are not designed such that they are fair if you teleport the monster however many squares straight up in the air and then make them take that falling damage, nor for automatically dealing damage via terrain features. It applies to both PC and monster powers.

By that reasoning we shouldn't be able to use Thunderwave to push an opponent into a Blade Barrier. That does *way* more damage then is appropriate for a level 1 at-will power. The powers are balanced on their own, taken individually, but not when combined. Blade Barrier is still very useful and balanced on its own, for instance.

However, Thunderwave just became a 1d6+Int+3d6+Wis +ongoing5 power!

We also shouldn't be allowed to Thunderwave targets off of cliffs. That's way more damage that is reasonable for a level 1 at-will power. Even if they save, they're now prone.

By this logic we also shouldn't be able to push/pull/slide *or* teleport a target into a fire pit. Heck, by this logic we shouldn't even be able to teleport a target into a jail cell. That effectively takes them out of combat -- how is that fair?

Sorry, I'm not sure that I really buy this line of thinking.
If I order a dominated creature to teleport himself over a cliff, is that forced movement? Is it?

What class has an at-will teleport? A dominated player may only use at-will powers.
I'm with the OP, get over it.

Teleportation is not Forced Movement. The Forced Movement term is used in the Push, Pull and Slide section because referring to that type of movement as Push, Pull or Slide Movement sounded stupid. Teleportation is it's own section after Push, Pull and Slide.

Never thought to Fireball the heads of Huge monsters, that's a good idea! In earlier editions I definately detonated Fireballs in the air to alter their radius or hit monsters in trenches and on the other side of walls.

Your mid Epic Tier when you get Elemental Maw, what is 55HPs falling damage to the monsters at that level - most of which are solos and can fly!

Personally, I like how 4e simplified 3D by making every square 1 sqaure away. No more 5, 15, 20, 30 b.s. And not having to calculate flight angles, lol, so awesome.

There are some... questions I have. Like is a PC considered in a five foot box vertically? I have been playing that Medium bipeds take up two stacked squares, like 3rd edition Tall creatures. Small bipeds occupy one square. 3D is something I would like to see addressed in DMG2.
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