Thri-Kreen: Wishful Thinking?

94 posts / 0 new
Last post

This thread was inspired by the PHB3 thread(s) on future races.

Note: I am updating this post based on your comments and suggestions, so keep them coming.

Image for inspiration:



Now, all things being "balanced" in 4E, my question to the masses is this: is there a way to even remotely balance the thri-kreen race without totally destroying the flavor? The toughest decision was what to do with the second set of arms.

Thri-kreen
Racial Traits
Average Height: 6' 6" - 7' 6"
Average Weight: 350 - 450 lb.
____________________
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 7 squares
Vision: Low Light
____________________
Languages: Common, Kreen
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Perception
Racial Weaponry: The gythka is treated as a military melee weapon. The chatkcha is treated as a military ranged weapon.
Multiple Limbs: Thri-kreen have four arms (two primary and two secondary). The primary arms can hold any item normally allowed to the character. The secondary arms cannot wield weapons, shields, and/or implements, and the thri-kreen cannot benefit from any properties from weapons, shields, and/or implements being held in the secondary arms.
Once per round as a free action, as long as at least one arm is not holding an item, the thri-kreen can switch held items between the primary and secondary arms (any combination) or make a non-power minor action (see Minor Actions, PHB pg 289 for examples).
Thri-kreen do not gain an additional arms slot.
Natural Leaper: You can make all jumps as if you had a running start. The distance you jump can exceed your speed.
Trance: Rather than sleep, thri-kreen enter a meditative state known as trance. You need to spend 4 hours in this state to gain the same benefits other races gain from taking a 6-hour extended rest. While in a trance, you are fully aware of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies and other events as normal.
Dodge Missiles: You can use dodge missiles as an encounter power.

Dodge Missiles Thri-kreen Racial Power
You use your natural grace and chitinous hide to good effect.
Encounter
Immediate Interrupt Personal
Trigger: You are hit by a ranged attack with the weapon keyword.
Effect: Make a saving throw with a bonus of one-half of your dexterity bonus. A successful save reduces the damage taken by one-half your level plus your dexterity modifier. If you take no damage, the attack is negated.

New Racial Feats:
Kreen Weapon Training: You gain proficiency and a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with the gythka and the chatkcha. You can treat the gythka as a double weapon. When wielded as a double weapon, the gythka uses the details below. You must declare how you are wielding the gythka at the beginning of your turn. Chatkchas gain the Brutal 1 property.

Improved Dodge Missiles: Dodge Missiles becomes an At-Will power.

Improved Dodge Missiles (epic): Dodge Missiles can be used against all ranged hits not targeting your Will defense, but non-weapon attacks apply a -5 penalty to your save.


New Weapons


Superior Military Melee Weapon
Two-Handed


























WeaponProf.DamageRangePriceWeightGroupProperties
Gythka+21d1030 gp10 lb.Polearm,Heavy BladeReach
Gythka*+21d10/1d1030 gp10 lb.Heavy Blade/Heavy BladeDefensive, Stout/Offhand

* Requires Kreen Weapon Training feat to use this way


Superior Military Ranged Weapon
Light thrown


























WeaponProf.DamageRangePriceWeightGroupProperties
Chatkcha*+31d65/105 gp1/2 lb.Light bladeLight thrown
Chatkcha*/**+31d65/105 gp1/2 lb.Light bladeLight thrown, Brutal 1

* Similar to a boomerang, this weapon will return on a miss.
** Requires Kreen Weapon Training feat


Ok, now for a racial PP (this version is far too melee-focused, so some input here for making it more friendly to the casters):

Tohr-kreen (need help for a good name here)
Path Features

Kreen Senses (11th level): You gain Tremorsense 2 and Dark Vision.

Great Leap (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action that involves a charge, you can make an Athletics check to make a jump to replace the movement of the charge. This jump does not trigger an opportunity attack.

Natural Defenses (16th level): You gain a +1 racial bonus to AC and Reflex.


Poison Bite Tohr-kreen Attack 11
Encounter - Poison
Standard Action Melee Melee 1
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength+4 vs. Fortitude or Constitution+4 vs. Fortitude or Dexterity+4 vs. Fortitude. Increase to +6 bonus at 21st level.
Hit: The target is immobilized (save ends).


Aftereffect: First Failed Save: The target is dazed until the end of its next turn. At 21th level, target becomes dazed (save ends). 


Special: When you gain this power, choose Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity as the ability score you use when making attack rolls with this power. This choice remains throughout your character’s life and does not change.


Lick the Blade Tohr-kreen Utility 12
Encounter
Move Action
Effect: You coat a weapon with your poison bite (this counts as using the power). The first hit you make with this weapon before the end of your turn will also apply the hit effect of the poison bite power. The target receives a +1 bonus on the save.

Ecliptic Strike Tohr-kreen Attack 20
Whether above or below you, no enemy is out of your reach.
Daily - Weapon
Immediate Reaction Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Trigger: You moved at least 2 squares during a jump or fall and are adjacent to the target.
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex or Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: 2W + Dexterity or Wisdom modifier damage. The target is pushed 1 square and knocked prone. You shift into the space the target occupied.
Miss: Half damage. Both you and target are knocked prone.
Effect: You take half of any falling damage received as a result of this attack, and the target takes the same amount.
Special: When you gain this power, choose Dexterity or Wisdom as the ability you use when making attack rolls with this power.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Oh, it'd be easy to keep the arms. Just make it so that they're too weak to hold and manipulate weapons/implements/et cetera. You could use them to carry small items or maybe tickle someone, but noting that would normally affect game mechanics.

Perhaps you could add "when wearing light armor" to that +1 AC.

The poison bite's effects might be a little overpowered. Here's my idea: get rid of the immobilized and unconscious conditions and put them into feats. Paralyzing Poison would be heroic tear and and Knock-Out Poison would be paragon tier (and maybe require Con 13 or something).

Other than that, the build looks good. I'd be nice to have Mantis People back again.
Well you could keep the extra arms, maybe something like a bonus on grab and grab related checks, plus when they drop a weapon or implement to switch they can instead store it on their extra hands and keep it with them, just not use it.

Another option would be to make one set of arms into specialized claws rather than weapon using appendages, and give them a racial power related to the claws, maybe a basic melee attack or oppurtunity attack power?
Mage Hand: "If you are holding an object, the hand may stow it in a pack, pouch, or sheath or similar container, and simotaniouslymove any one object on your person to your hand." (Minor action)

I expect this race would have something similar.
Well, the Warforged is able to essentially wield four implements at once; I'm sure there's some way of doing something similar for Thri-Keen.
Poison Bite Thri-kreen Racial Power
Encounter ✦ Poison
Minor Action melee 1
Targets: One Creature
Attack: Strength + 2 vs. Fortitude, Constitution + 2 vs. Fortitude, or Dexterity + 2 vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d4+Constitution modifier poison damage.
Increase to +4 bonus and 2d4+Constitution modifier at 11th level, and to +6 bonus and 3d4+Constitution modifier damage at 21st level.

Effect: Target is slowed (save ends). If the target fails its first save, target becomes immobilized (save ends). If the target fails its second save for this effect, target becomes unconscious (save ends).

Special: When you create your character, choose Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity as the ability score you use when making attack rolls with this power. This choice remains throughout your character’s life and does not change.

Uh, this is way better than being able to wield 4 implements /weapons. I would switch it to:
Poison Bite Thri-kreen Racial Power
Encounter ✦ Poison
Minor Action melee 1
Targets: One Creature
Attack: Strength + 2 vs. Fortitude, Constitution + 2 vs. Fortitude, or Dexterity + 2 vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d4+Constitution modifier poison damage.
Increase to +4 bonus and 2d4+Constitution modifier at 11th level, and to +6 bonus and 3d4+Constitution modifier damage at 21st level.

Effect: Target is slowed until the end of your next turn.

Special: When you create your character, choose Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity as the ability score you use when making attack rolls with this power. This choice remains throughout your character’s life and does not change.

I'd replace the weapon proficiencies with the following:

4 arms: Once per turn, you can draw or replace a weapon or item as part of the same action used to attack with the weapon or use the object.

Also, Natural Armor seems a touch good. I would replace it with -

Natural Armor: +1 racial bonus to AC while wearing light amour.

Makes sence form a logical point of view (your chitin is not going to help you much if you're wearing full plate armor) and it doesn't make it the obvious choice for defenders.
5 things here...

1 - As originally presented, the poison bite attack was stupidly overpowered, but Dudelander has made into a much more reasonable ability. A feat to make it more powerful (turn the slow into a save end effect?) is probably a good idea.

2 - I'm not sure giving them profiency with a 'Double Weapon' is quite fair either however, since those are usually Superior Weapon.

Dwarves get prof with Warhammer, not Craghammer. And Eladrin get profiency with Longsword, not Rapier or Bastard sword.

As such, I'd simply give them a proficiency with the Long Spear - or even no proficiency at all - and then make a Feat similar to Dwarven Soldier training... for example:

Thri-Keen bad ass kung fu
Pre-req: Thri-Kreen. Must be a bad ass.
The Thri-Kreen gain proficiency with the gythka and chatka (+ possibly a weapon group?), and receives a +2 feat bonus to damage when using them.

3 - There's no way the Gythka can have a base of D10 and be a Light Blade, you just designed hand down the greatest rogue weapon of all time, and it's simply way out there. Make it an Heavy Blade, or even an axe (quite frankly, if the Gythka is the weapon the guy in your drawing is using, it has a lot in common with a double axe and could really just be a reflavored double axe anyway).

There's also no point in making it a Staff + something, since there's no real support for staff weapon currently.

4 - +1 to AC, even if paired to 'when wearing light armor' may be way too strong as well. AC is easily the most important defense in the game, and this give you a huge leg up on other class.

5 - The small arms can easily be said to be vestigial and borderline useless unless you take a feat for them, for example:

Thri-Keen bad ass kung fu... with small arms!
Pre-req: Thri-Kreen. Must be a bad ass.
You use your smaller arm to help you access equipment on your person as well as defend yourself from foes who get to close. You can draw a weapon as part of the attack (instead of using a minor action) and get a +2 to defense against grapple attacks.
Might as well toss my own version of Thri-Kreen on this thread, as well:

Thri-Kreen
RACIAL TRAITS
Average Height:
6' 6" - 7' 6"
Average Weight: 350 - 450 lb.
Ability scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 7 squares
Vision: Low-Light
Languages: Common, Kreen
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Perception
Four-Limbed Beast: You have four hands, and may use all four to hold items. As a free action on your turn, one per turn, you may change which items in your hands are designated as being held, and which are designated as being wielded, as is legal for your character. You cannot use properties from held items, only from wielded items. You still have only one arms slot for magic items. When wearing a shield but not wielding it, you gain its properties, but you do not gain your shield bonus to your AC and Reflex defenses.
Kreen Weapon Familiarity: You gain proficiency with the chatkcha and the gythka.
Natural Leaper: When you jump, determine the DC as though you had made a running start. The distance you jump can exceed your speed.
Paralyzing Bite: You can use Paralyzing Bite as an encounter power.

RACIAL POWER
Paralyzing Bite
Thri-Kreen Racial Power - Encounter
Minor Action - Melee Poison
Target: One creature.
Attack: Dexterity +2 vs. Reflex.
Hit: The target is dazed (save ends).
Increase to a +4 bonus, and target is dazed and immobilized (save ends both) at 11th level; Increase to a +6 bonus, target is dazed and immobilized (save ends both), and the target has a -2 penalty to the save at 21st level.

Someone on the other thread thought the poison bite was too powerful. It hasn't been a problem thus far. It hasn't even been as good as Elven Accuracy, for example, even though the rest of the race is specifically using the elf as its template for design. It has been slightly behind the elf as far as overall power level, which is fine as I consider elves to be one of the more overall useful races made thus far. If I were to change it, the heroic-tier ability would be immobilized, and the rest would remain the same.
1 - As originally presented, the poison bite attack was stupidly overpowered, but Dudelander has made into a much more reasonable ability. A feat to make it more powerful (turn the slow into a save end effect?) is probably a good idea.

Considering there are few (if any?) ways to give a penalty to saves for a racial ability, getting a monster to fail 3 times in a row is far from "stupidly overpowered". The original 3E version caused paralysis for several rounds, equivalent to stun in 4E, which WOULD be stupidly overpowered, so I made it a heck of a lot weaker. Alternately, I could have used slowed/dazed/stunned progression, which I also feel is way too strong. Considering this is a single target attack, compared to the raw oomph of a Dragonborn's racial ability, this isn't any stronger overall. I could see giving a save bonus based on the target size (the toxin isn't as effective on larger targets).
2 - I'm not sure giving them profiency with a 'Double Weapon' is quite fair either however, since those are usually Superior Weapon.

Dwarves get prof with Warhammer, not Craghammer. And Eladrin get profiency with Longsword, not Rapier or Bastard sword.

As such, I'd simply give them a proficiency with the Long Spear - or even no proficiency at all - and then make a Feat similar to Dwarven Soldier training... for example:

Thri-Keen bad ass kung fu
Pre-req: Thri-Kreen. Must be a bad ass.
The Thri-Kreen gain proficiency with the gythka and chatka (+ possibly a weapon group?), and receives a +2 feat bonus to damage when using them.

I am using the 2E/3E versions as a baseline here. The Gythka was a racial weapon, often referred to as a polearm (although it didn't get reach IIRC). I think the best equivalent weapon is the martial arts weapon Lajatang. I could see making it simply a 2 handed weapon like the quarterstaff, and give a feat to make it a double weapon like what was also done with the quarterstaff. So, if we use the similar models of superior weapons, if we treat a Gythka as a superior quarterstaff, the die would increase to d10. Since it has edges on the ends, it could be either a heavy blade or light blade. I could see arguments comparing it to a double axe, though.
3 - There's no way the Gythka can have a base of D10 and be a Light Blade, you just designed hand down the greatest rogue weapon of all time, and it's simply way out there. Make it an Heavy Blade, or even an axe (quite frankly, if the Gythka is the weapon the guy in your drawing is using, it has a lot in common with a double axe and could really just be a reflavored double axe anyway).

There's also no point in making it a Staff + something, since there's no real support for staff weapon currently.

See above
4 - +1 to AC, even if paired to 'when wearing light armor' may be way too strong as well. AC is easily the most important defense in the game, and this give you a huge leg up on other class.

I agree its a hefty bonus, but far from overpowered. I somewhat agree about the light armor bit, but realistically, even if an attack gets through heavy armor, the chitin will still provide some protection. Some races get a NAD bonus or more, so I think it's more of a matter of balancing this racial bonus against what else they get. Perhaps make this a racial feat instead?
5 - The small arms can easily be said to be vestigial and borderline useless unless you take a feat for them, for example:

Thri-Keen bad ass kung fu... with small arms!
Pre-req: Thri-Kreen. Must be a bad ass.
You use your smaller arm to help you access equipment on your person as well as defend yourself from foes who get to close. You can draw a weapon as part of the attack (instead of using a minor action) and get a +2 to defense against grapple attacks.

I like this idea, as my biggest concern is giving them the ability to hold *4* implements and get all 4 passive bonuses, which is beyond overpowered. Giving them the equivalent of quick draw might work out ok (also make this a racial feat, with some minor bonus over the standard Quick Draw feat).

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Might as well toss my own version of Thri-Kreen on this thread, as well:

Very nice, I like your version. I used Dragonborn as a base (with heavy elf tendencies, lol The four arms and paralytic bite seemed very hard to account for, but I think you handled it very well. Differentiating between held and wielded was exactly what I was searching for.

I liked having a progression element for the poison bite. I wonder, perhaps it should go in reverse, starting with dazed until end of its next turn, then slow (save ends). Add a -2 penalty for 21st level.

I also could see a feat turning it into an ongoing 5/10/15 poison damage (instead of the status effects).

I just looked at the athas.org version of the thri-kreen, and it occured to me, instead of having the poisonous bite an encounter ability, make it a daily instead. The 3E version was a daily ability, and this would allow for it to be potent.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Considering there are few (if any?) ways to give a penalty to saves for a racial ability, getting a monster to fail 3 times in a row is far from "stupidly overpowered". The original 3E version caused paralysis for several rounds, equivalent to stun in 4E, which WOULD be stupidly overpowered, so I made it a heck of a lot weaker. Alternately, I could have used slowed/dazed/stunned progression, which I also feel is way too strong. Considering this is a single target attack, compared to the raw oomph of a Dragonborn's racial ability, this isn't any stronger overall. I could see giving a save bonus based on the target size (the toxin isn't as effective on larger targets).

It's a lot stronger overall, considering that this would be the only racial ability in the game that has a save end effect. I think that's pretty telling in and out of itself. aADragonborn's breath can do decent damage and clear minions, but it's tactical application aren't necessarily that great... what the bite offer is control.

Even if the target fails only 1 save and becomes immobilized - it's already doing a lot for a racial ability. If it goes farther and triggers daze or even Stun, than it's totally out of line. It's more in line with an actual class power then a racial.

Basing your design out of 'how it was' in 3.5 is a good idea to get started, but saying 'it used to be much stronger in 3.5' isn't really a good argument to have an overpowered ability in 4e.

Tectuktitlay's poison bite seems just as bad as yours, except for different reason. Daze is a really powerful status effect to give has an encounter racial power and it's also a Save End effect.

I agree its a hefty bonus, but far from overpowered. I somewhat agree about the light armor bit, but realistically, even if an attack gets through heavy armor, the chitin will still provide some protection. Some races get a NAD bonus or more, so I think it's more of a matter of balancing this racial bonus against what else they get. Perhaps make this a racial feat instead?

Race that get a bonus to their NAD are race that have a stats bonus to redundant NAD increase stats... Eladarin get INT/DEX, which both increase Ref. Goliath get STR/CON, which both increase Fort. The +1 to NAD for them isn't 'good', it just makes them up to par with other races.

This isn't the case of your Thri-Kreen, who's well balanced with a + to Ref and Will. Not to mention that AC is way more important than NADs anyway, the majority of attack target it.
It's a lot stronger overall, considering that this would be the only racial ability in the game that has a save end effect. I think that's pretty telling in and out of itself. aADragonborn's breath can do decent damage and clear minions, but it's tactical application aren't necessarily that great... what the bite offer is control.

I agree, and thus I changed it to be a daily. I am using the (save ends) mechanic to essentially mimic a progressively worsening effect (but only if they keep failing).
Race that get a bonus to their NAD are race that have a stats bonus to redundant NAD increase stats... Eladarin get INT/DEX, which both increase Ref. Goliath get STR/CON, which both increase Fort. The +1 to NAD for them isn't 'good', it just makes them up to par with other races.

This isn't the case of your Thri-Kreen, who's well balanced with a + to Ref and Will. Not to mention that AC is way more important than NADs anyway, the majority of attack target it.

Again, I have to agree with you. I think it is appropriate for thri-kreen to get an AC bonus from their chitin, but should this be made into yet another racial feat?

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Very nice, I like your version. I used Dragonborn as a base (with heavy elf tendencies, lol The four arms and paralytic bite seemed very hard to account for, but I think you handled it very well. Differentiating between held and wielded was exactly what I was searching for.

Thanks. Well, we all need to take examples of balance from somewhere, eh? The four arms bit seemed the most logical approach to me, to preserve economy of action, yet simulate the advantages.

I liked having a progression element for the poison bite. I wonder, perhaps it should go in reverse, starting with dazed until end of its next turn, then slow (save ends). Add a -2 penalty for 21st level.

I knew I wanted some sort of progression for the bite, that's simply how the final iteration ended up for me. I do like the idea of an until the end of next turn to start, but I really haven't found it to be too much, yet. Maybe with some serious save penalties, even -3 to -5 in heroic with various stacking effects, it'll be too much. I can definitely see the fear of it getting out of control.

I also could see a feat turning it into an ongoing 5/10/15 poison damage (instead of the status effects).

I was simply trying to preserve the classic flavor, and thought that damage (save perhaps a "bite" damage initially) was out of flavor.

I just looked at the athas.org version of the thri-kreen, and it occured to me, instead of having the poisonous bite an encounter ability, make it a daily instead. The 3E version was a daily ability, and this would allow for it to be potent.

Now, that's an option. A daily racial power could definitely be justified in being quite a bit more potent. I'll have to mull on that one for a bit.

ETA: And I agree with you in the previous post, an AC bonus should not be inherent, but as a feat? Much more appropriate. I don't think tremorsense makes as much sense as darkvision, and remember, we have a racial heroic feat that gives both low-light vision AND a +1 bonus to Perception. A paragon-tier racial feat giving darkvision isn't out of line in that context, methinks. And I mean straight-up darkvision. In fact, I expect to see that sort of thing come out sooner rather than later for some other race, like maybe Shadar-Kai.

ETA 2.0: Also, I cannot believe I forgot Trance. Wow, thri-kreen never sleeping was one of the most flavorful parts of the race when I played them, as the kreen would always, and gladly, go on guard duty. That is totally getting added to my kreen, likely in the same manner you did: replacing the weapon proficiencies. As to whether a +2 feat bonus to damage is too strong, I'm don't think it is. Compared to Dwarven Weapon Training and Eladrin Soldier, which gives proficiencies and the same damage bonus with whole groups of weapons instead of two specific weapons, it should be fine. Finally, the gythka is already a d10/d10 superior light blade, spear double weapon with defensive in my campaigns, so that bit of the feat would be redundant for my purposes, and the chatkcha is a shuriken with a 5/10 range instead of 6/12, with high crit, that returns on a miss (and magical ones already return on a miss or hit, so...).
Ok, more epiphanies...I made the gythka a polearm/axe/double weapon, and gave it defensive, off hand instead of reach. I also lowered the die (made it the same as the 3E version), but added the +2 damage bonus with the racial feat. All in all, it makes it a very appropriate superior weapon (and certainly not a carbon copy of the double axe).

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Ok, more epiphanies...I made the gythka a polearm/axe/double weapon, and gave it defensive, off hand instead of reach. I also lowered the die (made it the same as the 3E version), but added the +2 damage bonus with the racial feat. All in all, it makes it a very appropriate superior weapon (and certainly not a carbon copy of the double axe).

Heh, lowering the damage like that, it is completely justifiable to either, A) up the proficiency bonus to +3, like the double blade, or, B) more interestingly, IMHO, increase the number of weapon types it counts as for a superior versatility of feat mixing (i.e. it's a polearm, spear, axe, heavy blade). As it, it is actually below the standards of the other double weapons.

On the other hand, the chatkcha is a bit too much, having better range, better damage, AND high crit, when compared to a shuriken.

ETA: And lol at the perfect timing of your post versus my edit to include info on the gythka/chatkcha above.
Heh, lowering the damage like that, it is completely justifiable to either, A) up the proficiency bonus to +3, like the double blade, or, B) more interestingly, IMHO, increase the number of weapon types it counts as for a superior versatility of feat mixing (i.e. it's a polearm, spear, axe, heavy blade). As it, it is actually below the standards of the other double weapons.

On the other hand, the chatkcha is a bit too much, having better range, better damage, AND high crit, when compared to a shuriken.

ETA: And lol at the perfect timing of your post versus my edit to include info on the gythka/chatkcha above.

Well, being a polearm gives it access to some very powerful feats and powers...the lack of reach makes it unique (and accurate). I lowered the range on the chatka (yeah, I went a little nuts there). The 3E didn't have a high crit, but I wanted to give it something over the shuriken, and considering its a large crystalline throwing wedge, high crit seems appropriate. Also, NO ONE besides rogues use shurikens, which effectively means they have the same damage as chatkas

Doh, looks likes I have been spelling it wrong, lol. Its Chatkcha I moved the High Crit property to be part of the weapon training feat, so in anyone else's hands it's just about the same as a shuriken.

Also, I changed the Poison Bite to be a standard action.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Well, being a polearm gives it access to some very powerful feats and powers...the lack of reach makes it unique (and accurate). I lowered the range on the chatka (yeah, I went a little nuts there). The 3E didn't have a high crit, but I wanted to give it something over the shuriken, and considering its a large crystalline throwing wedge, high crit seems appropriate. Also, NO ONE besides rogues use shurikens, which effectively means they have the same damage as chatkas

Yet, you are losing the single most potent ability a polearm has: reach. That cannot be understated, as it is a very powerful ability, generally on par with that extra +1 to hit that the nicer heavy and light blades get. You are also losing out on the PP utility stances that give threatening reach, which, albeit is less significant. Gaining access to a couple of nice feats is nice and all, but remember also that to get both Polearm Gamble and Polearm Momentum requires a 15 Str, 15 Dex, 15 Wis, and primary or multiclassed into a specific class (Fighter). Meanwhile, double blades can get bonuses to hit with OAs and the ability to use at-wills with OAs, and a +3 proficiency bonus, and a +2 generic bonus to damage rolls against Large or larger critters, and do so while utilizing only two stats (Str and Dex), double axe gets access to high crit, and urgrosh gains access to Hammer Rhythm. To me, dropping the gythka to d8/d8 and losing reach, but keeping polearm just doesn't cut it. It needs something else to be on-par with other double weapons.

ETA: Ok, the chatkcha is now more in-line with shuriken, and still gets a nice bonus in the hands of a well-trained kreen. Also, I see you upped the damage back to d10/d10 on the gythka. That should be sufficient to make for an interesting double weapon choice in-line with the rest.
Yet, you are losing the single most potent ability a polearm has: reach. That cannot be understated, as it is a very powerful ability, generally on par with that extra +1 to hit that the nicer heavy and light blades get. You are also losing out on the PP utility stances that give threatening reach, which, albeit is less significant. Gaining access to a couple of nice feats is nice and all, but remember also that to get both Polearm Gamble and Polearm Momentum requires a 15 Str, 15 Dex, 15 Wis, and primary or multiclassed into a specific class (Fighter). Meanwhile, double blades can get bonuses to hit with OAs and the ability to use at-wills with OAs, and a +3 proficiency bonus, and a +2 generic bonus to damage rolls against Large or larger critters, and do so while utilizing only two stats (Str and Dex), double axe gets access to high crit, and urgrosh gains access to Hammer Rhythm. To me, dropping the gythka to d8/d8 and losing reach, but keeping polearm just doesn't cut it. It needs something else to be on-par with other double weapons.

Ok, I upped it back to d10s. Considering the race gets +2 to dex and wis, getting 15s in those stats won't be nearly that painful. Granted, we could label it a spear (double weapon spear!?), but I think axe is actually a little more accurate. If WotC adds the Lajatang weapon to PHB3, I would probably use those stats.

Hmm, side thought. Making the gythka an axe means dwarves can use it also with their feat...not desirable, but not sure if that is avoidable. Same for Eladrin if it is a spear.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Ok, I upped it back to d10s. Considering the race gets +2 to dex and wis, getting 15s in those stats won't be nearly that painful. Granted, we could label it a spear (double weapon spear!?), but I think axe is actually a little more accurate. If WotC adds the Lajatang weapon to PHB3, I would probably use those stats.

Hmm, side thought. Making the gythka an axe means dwarves can use it also with their feat...not desirable, but not sure if that is avoidable. Same for Eladrin if it is a spear.

The spear bit is likely true, so I might remove that, I think, on my own versions. The dwarf, however? I can't see the bulk of dwarves EVER choosing either a double axe or a gythka over the d12 damage and Hammer Rhythm of an urgrosh, so it's likely a non-issue. Even with all three polearm feats on a dwarven Fighter, a greatspear is still likely better since the gythka doesn't have reach, and doesn't have the +3 proficiency bonus. Both of those aspects combined is definitely better than the +1 AC.

Then again, eladrin gain access to the urgrosh, too, with Eladrin Soldier. But they have better stats than dwarves to successfully use a gythka with the polearm feats, so I'm still not sure.
Hammer Rhythm of an urgrosh

An urgrosh is an axe and spear...no hammer rhythm, but deadly axe (high crit).

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
An urgrosh is an axe and spear...no hammer rhythm, but deadly axe (high crit).

I don't know why, but I thought it was a hammer. That's certainly not as good as Hammer Rhythm.

Regardless, that +1 AC is definitely not as good as a mordenkrad's brutal 1, 2d6 damage and Hammer Rhythm, or as good as a craghammer + HR + a heavy shield. It's sure as heck not as good as an executioner's axe, which has d12, brutal 2, and high crit (saving you a feat for something else). Dwarves have a ton of really good weapon options with Dwarven Weapon Training, and greatspear's +1 to-hit and reach crushes that +1 AC, so I still can't see a dwarf taking a gythka.
Completely reworked the multiple limbs and poison bite.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Feat: Natural Armor- Treat your int/dex as if it was a +4 bonus for the purposes of light armor AC. Increase this to 6 at paragon and 8 at epic


This allows certian builds to dump AC stats and still go around in light armor, without bumping a Swordmage or Avenger's AC any higher than it already is.
This would be my take on the current set-up.

I say leave the multiple limbs out entirely. If they're only useful for minor mundane tasks, they have no actual mechanical purpose. Leave them as pure fluff.

This then presents two options I think.

You can keep poison bite as is. I personally think it's a tad overpowered, myself.

Or

You can nerf poion bite a bit, and give them another trait of some sort in place of multiple limbs.

I'm really not sure exactly right now how poison bite could be nerfed...I've just been up for WAY too long for that. But, regarding adding another trait to the race, perhaps choosing one of its psi-like abilities and turning into a racial encounter power? Set them up like the drow where they have to choose which power they'll use in a given encounter?

That's just my suggestions. Personally, overall I think its pretty good so far.
LevelSync - Final Fantasy XI's boundless fountain of purest awesome from which all win flows eternally. Click to view my Personality Profile page

whatcolor_isblue.jpg
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

I am Blue/Green
I am Blue/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both rational and instinctive. I value self-knowledge and understanding of the world; my ultimate goal is self-improvement and improvement of the world around me. At best, I am focused and methodical; at worst, I am obsessive and amoral.
The one big thing about poison bite is that it is a daily power (not encounter), and I am making it a standard action (instead of minor). Granted, I originally had a MUCH weaker encounter version, but it really didn't really fit the flavor of the 3E version (which actually caused stat loss and paralysis).
I kind of want to have the bite resemble a quick-acting disease (but only on multiple failed saves).
All things considered, I might need to nerf it back to encounter/minor status and make it just cause a single status effect (probably daze).

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Regardless, that +1 AC is definitely not as good as a mordenkrad's brutal 1, 2d6 damage and Hammer Rhythm, or as good as a craghammer + HR + a heavy shield. It's sure as heck not as good as an executioner's axe, which has d12, brutal 2, and high crit (saving you a feat for something else). Dwarves have a ton of really good weapon options with Dwarven Weapon Training, and greatspear's +1 to-hit and reach crushes that +1 AC, so I still can't see a dwarf taking a gythka.

It's actually a lot better.

At epic tier, you're going to train weapon focus for +3 anyway, making Dwarven weapon training kind of a moot point, since it's really no better than someone using two feat (same amount) to get Weapon Prof and Weapon Focus.

However, even at Epic, that +1 to AC is always going to be there.

I don't think the power of AC is really sinking in here.

This is even sillier since the OP is now allowing it to be taken twice >_>

Keep in mind that those guys are pretty much always going to be using Kreen Weapon Training, which is also another +1 to AC (and Ref) because it gives access to a Defensive Weapon.

You're giving those guys way to much way to increase their AC as it is.

All things considered, I might need to nerf it back to encounter/minor status and make it just cause a single status effect (probably daze).

Funnily enough, you're 'nerfed' poison bite is actually stronger than your original one.

Slow on a Miss? >_>

Daze Save End with a Slow After Effect?

As a minor action?

For a racial power? >_>

It's way out there.
Can you make a melee version of poison bite that will be used by ranged squishies?

I havn't looked at everyone else's versions, but "Once per encounter, when you hit with a melee basic, you may do an additional d4 +con poison damage and daze an opponent until the end of your turn." (Not end of NEXT turn, end of TURN)

This one is a little extra damage, uses the accuracy of your Melee Basic, (which can be stat-altered with a feat) and can be used by a wizard or shaman in melee to avoid OAs when running away. A minor action version works even better, but means we have to define a stat for the to-hit roll.
Funnily enough, you're 'nerfed' poison bite is actually stronger than your original one.

Slow on a Miss? >_>

Daze Save End with a Slow After Effect?

As a minor action?

For a racial power? >_>

It's way out there.

Oops, I meant to remove the miss part when I switched it back to an encounter power. Considering it doesn't deal damage, and only a status effect, I don't think its THAT strong (especially with the miss part gone). I don't know about your experience, but I have yet to see a monster fail a single saving throw more than once (curse our DM's dice!).
As far as the AC goes, you are burning a feat for a single AC point, which is about the same as similar feats (armor spec, etc). I could see splitting the feat into two and make one available at paragon and another at epic. I suppose if you REALLY want to burn all your feats into pumping up your AC to untouchable levels, you are really gimping yourself in other ways (opportunity costs). If others agree that the AC feat(s) are too strong, I'm open to other ideas.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Can you make a melee version of poison bite that will be used by ranged squishies?

I havn't looked at everyone else's versions, but "Once per encounter, when you hit with a melee basic, you may do an additional d4 +con poison damage and daze an opponent until the end of your turn." (Not end of NEXT turn, end of TURN)

This one is a little extra damage, uses the accuracy of your Melee Basic, (which can be stat-altered with a feat) and can be used by a wizard or shaman in melee to avoid OAs when running away. A minor action version works even better, but means we have to define a stat for the to-hit roll.

I have been debating about adding a feat to make this a ranged power, but honestly it really goes against the flavor of the ability (it's an injected poison, not contact). Also, dazing an opponent until the end of YOUR turn is pointless. All they can use are OAs and interupts.
I also considered making into a basic melee attack, but I'm using other races with racial attack powers as a guideline here, and they either use a fixed stat or give a choice.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
In case you didn't notice, preventing OAs was the point of the power as written. It does a bit of damage, and we could extend it to "end of the targets next turn," but that starts pushing the power level for an encounter power
It's actually a lot better.

No, it's really not.

At epic tier, you're going to train weapon focus for +3 anyway, making Dwarven weapon training kind of a moot point, since it's really no better than someone using two feat (same amount) to get Weapon Prof and Weapon Focus.

I would never take a feat at epic level to gain a mere +1 additional feat bonus to damage. Even with a Tempest or a Ranger. Dwarven Weapon Training is so good because it gives a paragon-level damage buff feat, plus multiple Weapon Proficiency feats, simultaneously.

However, even at Epic, that +1 to AC is always going to be there.

It sure will be, and it's solid, don't get me wrong. The increased damage AND multiple superior weapon proficiency feats as a SINGLE feat, however, is worth more. I'd much rather spend that extra feat I've saved on something else. Better yet, a dwarf has the luxury of being able to get that +1 defense if they really need it any time they want...by pulling out their back-up double weapon. Or, if using a one-handed weapon, getting a much superior +2 shield bonus to AC (AND Reflex!!!) instead, while not sacrificing in the way of damge (thanks, craghammer, and your brutal 2!).

I don't think the power of AC is really sinking in here.

I quite understand the importance of AC. However, there are so many more advantages to Dwarven Weapon Training for a single feat, as is common with the racial feats versus the class or generic feats. Seriously, just the shield + craghammer alone wrecks the comparatively poor +1 AC bonus. I'd much, much rather use a craghammer + light shield for the +1 bonus to both AC and Reflex, or a heavy shield for a whopping +2 bonus to AC and Reflex than use a defensive weapon. Again, in the case of a polearm, a greatspear is better. +1 to hit and reach is considerably better than +1 AC for a polearm user. +1 to hit is a top-tier ability, so that +3 proficiency bonus is pure gold. Reach gives such a character much better control, and ability to mark where applicable, plus provides access to the PPs with a utility stance that gives threatening reach.

This is even sillier since the OP is now allowing it to be taken twice >_>

THIS I agree with. A single instance of this feat, available at heroic, for a +1 racial bonus to AC, is perfectly fine since it stacks with everything else, and in-line with other racial feats. Allowing it to be bought twice is simply unnecessary.

Keep in mind that those guys are pretty much always going to be using Kreen Weapon Training, which is also another +1 to AC (and Ref) because it gives access to a Defensive Weapon.

And this is different from Dwarven Weapon Training and Eladrin Soldier how, exactly?
Probably going in the wrong direction in some ways, but I've made the AC feat(s) 1 per tier (instead of a single one that scales). Since no PC race yet has natural armor, I'm trying to be a little bit of a pioneer here

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
On the contrary, several have natural armor, fluff-wise. Dragonborn scales, anyone?
On the contrary, several have natural armor, fluff-wise. Dragonborn scales, anyone?

Hmm, noted. I'd like to know if WotC purposefully ignored that, or perhaps they have thin scales that don't provide enough additional protection to warrent another AC ;)

PHB, pg 35:
A typical dragonborn’s scales can be scarlet, gold, rust, ocher, bronze, or brown. Rarely do an individual’s scales match the hue of a chromatic or metallic dragon, and scale color gives no indication of the type of breath weapon a dragonborn uses. Most dragonborn have very fine scales over most of their body, giving their skin a leathery texture, with regions of larger scales on the forearms, lower legs and feet, shoulders, and thighs.

I agree it looks like the scales were meant to be fluff. This doesn't necessarily mean natural armor was purposefully avoided (at least from just this).

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Pruposefully. It's mentioned in Races and Classes. Hold on, and I'll give you a page citation.
Definatly looks better, but I would make the poison bite into a daily. That would put it in line with the other powers in the PHB. (Which 9 times out of 10 don't put save ends effects on encounter powers.)
Definatly looks better, but I would make the poison bite into a daily. That would put it in line with the other powers in the PHB. (Which 9 times out of 10 don't put save ends effects on encounter powers.)

Ok, I've been convinced. I made the daze part last a turn, and the slow aftereffect be save ends. Considering it doesn't do any actual damage, I think it is pretty reasonable for an encounter power.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
I would never take a feat at epic level to gain a mere +1 additional feat bonus to damage. Even with a Tempest or a Ranger. Dwarven Weapon Training is so good because it gives a paragon-level damage buff feat, plus multiple Weapon Proficiency feats, simultaneously.

You never would, but most build on CharOp do. Pretty telling.

I quite understand the importance of AC. However, there are so many more advantages to Dwarven Weapon Training for a single feat, as is common with the racial feats versus the class or generic feats. Seriously, just the shield + craghammer alone wrecks the comparatively poor +1 AC bonus. I'd much, much rather use a craghammer + light shield for the +1 bonus to both AC and Reflex, or a heavy shield for a whopping +2 bonus to AC and Reflex than use a defensive weapon.

You're really throwing the whole thing out for a loop anyway with the shield - Not every class even has access to them, and in fact most of the class the Thri-Kreen will prefer are not going to be using them.

For example, Thri-Kreen ranger. Awesome synergy right here, especially since it opens up all those polearm feats that Rangers don't usually get. But yeah, your dwarf ranger can use a Crag Hammer and a shield... and lose -2 to hit and -2 to Reflex.

Oh wait, Thri-Keen Avenger, D10 damage isn't a bad dice, and I get defensive. But yeah, I guess the Dwarf Avenger can use a Crag Hammer and a shield... and actually lose -1 AC because he's losing Armor of Faith >_> on top of the -2 to hit and -2 to reflex.

And heck, if I'm making a Rogue, Thri-Kreen training gives me a very nice range weapon (+3 to hit, D6 +2 dmg, High Crit) while Dwarven Training is pretty much worthless and putting on a shield is too.

If I'm making a laser priest, Thri-Kreen training gives me Defensive Weapon (+1 AC) and also gives me access to a very nice thrown weapon that I'll be able to use with my high Dex (similar to the bow cleric build with elfs). I can even MC into Rogue if I want more thrown weapon goodness. Dwarven Weapon Training + a shield? What's the point? You might as well just use an Ugrosh for Defensive, but you're not getting that sweet throwing weapon now are you?

The only class where this consideration is actually worth noting is for Fighters, and even than, a Dwarven Tempest is better off using a Thrown Hammer (Because of the Off-hand Property) over a Crag Hammer for DPR. And if we're not talking about Tempest Fighter, well the Dwarf is going to be better anyway, because his stats/racial feature work better with it than the Thri-Kreen's.

So Dwarven Weapon Training is better? If you play a Fighter, sure. Otherwise? Not really.

Beside, if you want to balance against Thri-Kreen training against Dwarven Training, do so by making Thri-Kreen training better, not by giving them an AC Boosting feat.

And this is different from Dwarven Weapon Training and Eladrin Soldier how, exactly?

Eh?

For starter, Eladrin Soldier doesn't give access to any double weapon.

Second, while Dwarven Weapon Training gives you access to the Ugrosh, a lot of Dwarves will still rather go with a Craghammer or a Mordenken (sp). So they won't necessary get a Defensive weapon.

The Thri-kreen always does, that is why it's different. There's very little incentive to build a Thri-Kreen martial character that doesn't Dual-Wield.

Hell, even non-Martial character. Look at the Wis Cleric example.


On the contrary, several have natural armor, fluff-wise. Dragonborn scales, anyone?

Yeah, that's the other thing that's been bothering me here... Dragonborn have scales. Goliath have rocks sticking out of their hide. They don't get increased AC.

You're very close to having a balanced race, but your hang up about making it closer to the 3.5 version rather than making it balanced prevents that. Scratch the save ends on the bite and the after effect - an Encounter Power that is Minor Action that can Daze until the end of your next turn would already be one of the most powerful racial power out there. Or leave it has and make it a Daily.
I would never take a feat at epic level to gain a mere +1 additional feat bonus to damage. Even with a Tempest or a Ranger. Dwarven Weapon Training is so good because it gives a paragon-level damage buff feat, plus multiple Weapon Proficiency feats, simultaneously.

You never would, but most build on CharOp do. Pretty telling.

I quite understand the importance of AC. However, there are so many more advantages to Dwarven Weapon Training for a single feat, as is common with the racial feats versus the class or generic feats. Seriously, just the shield + craghammer alone wrecks the comparatively poor +1 AC bonus. I'd much, much rather use a craghammer + light shield for the +1 bonus to both AC and Reflex, or a heavy shield for a whopping +2 bonus to AC and Reflex than use a defensive weapon.

You're really throwing the whole thing out for a loop anyway with the shield - Not every class even has access to them, and in fact most of the class the Thri-Kreen will prefer are not going to be using them.

For example, Thri-Kreen Ranger. Awesome synergy right here, especially since it opens up all those polearm feats that Rangers don't usually get. But yeah, your dwarf ranger can use a Crag Hammer and a shield... and lose -2 to hit and -2 to Reflex as well as the use of all his powers.

Oh wait, Thri-Keen Avenger, D10 damage isn't a bad dice, and I get defensive. But yeah, I guess the Dwarf Avenger can use a Crag Hammer and a shield... and actually lose -1 AC because he's losing Armor of Faith >_> on top of the -2 to hit and -2 to reflex.

Or the Thri-Kreen Wisdom Cleric. I can boost my Wis and Dex and be a 'ranged cleric', using the Thri-Kreen thrown weapon for Dex attack and maybe even MC in rogue for more thrown attack goodness (Similar to the Ranger/Cleric Elf) and when I'm about to get hit, I put up my Defensive weapon, getting a bonus to AC. Dwarven weapon training does give a bonus to AC, but it doesn't give a very sweet thrown weapon.

The only time where this consideration is actually worth noting is for Fighters, and even than, a Dwarven Tempest is better off using a Thrown Hammer (Because of the Off-hand Property) over a Crag Hammer for DPR, making the feat kinda moot. And if we're not talking about Tempest Fighter, well the Dwarf is going to be better anyway, because his stats/racial feature work better with it than the Thri-Kreen's.

Beside, if you want to balance against Thri-Kreen training against Dwarven Training, do so by making Thri-Kreen training better, not by giving them an AC Boosting feat.

In short, Dwarven Weapon Training maybe better overall, but because of that Thri-Kreen stats, Thri-Kreen training is better for every class he'll favor with one possible exception.

On the contrary, several have natural armor, fluff-wise. Dragonborn scales, anyone?

Yeah, that's the other thing that's been bothering me here... Dragonborn have scales. Goliath have rocks sticking out of their hide. They don't get increased AC.

You're very close to having a balanced race, but your hang up about making it closer to the 3.5 version rather than making it balanced prevents that. Scratch the save ends on the bite and the after effect - an Encounter Power that is Minor Action that can Daze until the end of your next turn would already be one of the most powerful racial power out there. Daze is devastating when used smartly.

Also, I'd actually suggest making their Double Weapon an Heavy Blade/Polearm. That differentiate even further from the double axe and give way better synergy with their high Dex.
Also, I'd actually suggest making their Double Weapon an Heavy Blade/Polearm. That differentiate even further from the double axe and give way better synergy with their high Dex.

I've lowered the base damage to d8. Essentially, I've traded the damage of a typical double axe for another weapon property (polearm). All in all, I think this is a fair trade off. A thri-kreen avenger may opt out of the weapon for a bigger one, but it would still be a good choice due to the defensive property (if you are focusing on defense).

Ok, after more thought, I think I will make it a heavy blade...so the trade off becomes losing +1 attack for another property (and making this a based on a double sword).

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
I curious - which version of the Thri-kreen do people prefer?

2e:



or 3.xe: