Implement Expertise - Weapons!

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In case you didn't notice, they have implement feats in the Character Builder for weapons!

I don't mean Weapon Expertise feats. I mean there is a feat listed as Implement Expertise (spears)! Multiple other weapons are listed such as crossbows, flails.....

The description is:

You gain a +1 bonus with any implement power you use through a spear. The bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level. Source: Player's Handbook.

Is this a preview of a feat that will be in Arcane Power that will allow you to substitute weapons for class implements??

I tried equipping a longspear and took the Implement Expertise (Spears) as a feat but the spear won't come up as an implement on the power cards.


I am all for weapons as implements!
I'd imagine it's so sorcerers can take implement expertise (daggers), and Swordmages implement expertise (blades). And to save themselves from having to reprogram each time they add a new class that uses a weapon as an implement.
I'd imagine it's so sorcerers can take implement expertise (light blades), and Swordmages implement expertise (light blades) or (heavy blades). And to save themselves from having to reprogram each time they add a new class that uses a weapon as an implement.

Fix'd
Fix'd

Not really. Sorcerers use Daggers as implements, so that is the implement type that they would chose for Implement Expertise. Similarly, Swordmages use blades (not heavy or light, just blades).

Check the implement descriptions for each.

However, if you can choose a weapon group that includes daggers, that'd work for Sorcerers. But for Swordmages, they are entitled to choose "blades", which would include heavy and light blades.
Not really. Sorcerers use Daggers as implements, so that is the implement type that they would chose for Implement Expertise. Similarly, Swordmages use blades (not heavy or light, just blades).

Check the implement descriptions for each.

However, if you can choose a weapon group that includes daggers, that'd work for Sorcerers. But for Swordmages, they are entitled to choose "blades", which would include heavy and light blades.

Actually Implement Expertise (Daggers) is not listed nor are "blades" - there is one for "heavy blades" and one for "light blades".

I guess they forget to add the dagger one in.
Actually Implement Expertise (Daggers) is not listed nor are "blades" - there is one for "heavy blades" and one for "light blades".

I guess they forget to add the dagger one in.

Or, they're sticking to the weapon groups like sensible people. Since dagger is a light blade. Ignore Fitz, he's wrong as per usual.
I am hoping they bring back "chosen/favored" weapons for the various gods - that way divine characters can use that particular weapon as a class implement. :D
I am hoping they bring back "chosen/favored" weapons for the various gods - that way divine characters can use that particular weapon as a class implement. :D

I hope not. Followers of The Raven Queen/Vecna/Anyone who uses a dagger would be ripped off.
Or, they're sticking to the weapon groups like sensible people. Since dagger is a light blade.

Weapon groups don't apply to implement types. It's nice if they want to shorthand it that way, but there is no "light blade" implement type (yet), unless they wrote the Swordmage implement description very poorly.

There are Orbs, Wands, Rods, Staffs, Holy Symbols, Daggers, and Totems. Please refer to your PHB and PHB2.

The FRPG says swordmages have Blades. That's pretty unspecific and possibly could be poorly written shorthand for "Heavy Blades and Light Blades." Or it might not. Unfortunately like many things with the Swordmage class it's implement rules aren't too well defined.
Weapon groups don't apply to implement types. It's nice if they want to shorthand it that way, but there is no "light blade" implement type (yet), unless they wrote the Swordmage implement description very poorly.

There are Orbs, Wands, Rods, Staffs, Holy Symbols, Daggers, and Totems. Please refer to your PHB and PHB2.

The FRPG says swordmages have Blades. That's pretty unspecific and possibly could be poorly written shorthand for "Heavy Blades and Light Blades." Or it might not. Unfortunately like many things with the Swordmage class it's implement rules aren't too well defined.

Your lack of reasoning and logic amuses me. Consider my pleased by your existance.
Weapon groups don't apply to implement types. It's nice if they want to shorthand it that way, but there is no "light blade" implement type (yet), unless they wrote the Swordmage implement description very poorly.

There are Orbs, Wands, Rods, Staffs, Holy Symbols, Daggers, and Totems. Please refer to your PHB and PHB2.

The FRPG says swordmages have Blades. That's pretty unspecific and possibly could be poorly written shorthand for "Heavy Blades and Light Blades." Or it might not. Unfortunately like many things with the Swordmage class it's implement rules aren't too well defined.

But a dagger IS a light blade. Try it out, make a sorcerer in the character builder and take implement focus:light blade and then equip the sorcerer with a dagger. You will notice all of the to hit modifiers will increase by one when the dagger is equipped.

The same thing will happen if you make a swordmage using the same feat, using the same dagger.

It is perfectly feasible to have a sorcerer/sowrdmage and use that dagger as the implement for BOTH classes. And even better with the light blade implement focus feat it will give spells from both classes a +1 bonus to hit (assuming the powers in question have the implement keyword).

love,

malkav
But a dagger IS a light blade. Try it out, make a sorcerer in the character builder and take implement focus:light blade and then equip the sorcerer with a dagger. You will notice all of the to hit modifiers will increase by one when the dagger is equipped.

Right, and that's fine if you want to allow weapon groups as implement types.

But they aren't. First, Weapon Groups don't apply to implements, they apply to weapons. Second, "Light Blade" isn't an implement type for any class. Unless they just poorly wrote the Swordmage Implement description.
Right, and that's fine if you want to allow weapon groups as implement types.

But they aren't. First, Weapon Groups don't apply to implements, they apply to weapons. Second, "Light Blade" isn't an implement type for any class. Unless they just poorly wrote the Swordmage Implement description.

One point for each of your points, then a deluge of information to clarify and confirm. By the end I hope you get it!

First, Weapon groups aren't implement types. Weapon groups include implement types, when your implement IS a weapon. A dagger for example.

Second, "Light Blades" include daggers, which serves as an implement for specific classes. Incoming deluge.

The Swordmage class description states that a Swordmage’s implement can be “Any light blade or heavy blade” which would include…you guessed it: a dagger. A dagger, whether it is an implement or not, is a light blade. A Swordmage's dagger, which is usable for melee attacks, is also an implement, and can be used as a conduit for his arcane magic. In this case the Swordmage has chosen a light blade to be his implement: a dagger. It is a dagger, a light blade, and an implement at the same time. Similarly, an orange is a fruit, a type of food, and it can be peeled. A hypothetical "Fruit Expertise" feat that provided a +1 attack bonus when throwing fruit would apply to an orange, since it is a fruit.

Hence, weapon groups for Implement Expertise make perfect sense when your implement IS a weapon. A dagger IS a weapon, and it is a light blade. When chosen as an implement, its all three!

Just because your dagger is an implement does NOT mean it loses the quality of being a light blade type weapon. It is a light blade and an implement at the same time! So, we would pick "Implement Expertise (Light Blade) - +1 to attack rolls with Light Blades" if to enhance the attack bonus of our Swordmage's arcane powers used with your dagger implement, since a dagger is a light blade AND an implement. As described above, the character builder applies the +1 bonus to all attack rolls that utilize a light blade as an implement; in our case, the Swordmage's dagger!

Just because a Sorcerer is limited to a dagger for his implement does not mean that there needs to be a feat that reads Implement Expertise (Dagger) since there is already a system for classifying weapons. Having a feat for every single weapon in the game is a waste when said Sorcerer can satisfy his desire for an additional +1 to attack rolls by picking up the Implement Expertise feat that includes his implement type: Light Blade.

Lastly, the Swordmage implement description is sufficiently clear that your blade (this is the weapon category that includes both light blades (such as a dagger) and heavy blades (such as a greatsword) adds its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls when used as an implement. Then it clearly states that you do NOT gain the weapon proficiency bonus to the attack roll when using your blade (not going to do it again) as an implement. Notice the gap this rule creates between melee powers of the Swordmage benefiting from proficiency bonuses (+2-3 to attack rolls) and the arcane powers (specifically those that include the “Implement” descriptor) not benefiting from proficiency bonuses. Enter Implement Expertise feats, which help minimize the size of this gap for the Swordmage as well as between melee classes and spell casters in general. Spell casters rejoice!

At this point I feel confidant that I've come close to the limit of my ability to explain it. Oppertunities to approach one's limits are rare, so I have to give a big THANK YOU to FitzNighteyes!


And, for the record, it IS "fine!" Hats off to Wizards!
The FRPG says swordmages have Blades. That's pretty unspecific and possibly could be poorly written shorthand for "Heavy Blades and Light Blades." Or it might not. Unfortunately like many things with the Swordmage class it's implement rules aren't too well defined.

Actually no, it does not just say "blades". It specifically says "Implements: Any light blade or heavy blade."
The feat says:
Benefit: Choose a type of implement.

Light Blade is not a type of implement for a Sorcerer, so he cant pick it.

Btw, I know this has been said like 100+ times, but since there are some people that dont appear to know still... The character builder is not a rule book. It is a tool to help you build a character. It has many many things wrong in it. If it has something wrong, it doesnt mean the rules have been changed, it doesnt mean it is using the correct rules, it means you found another of the many many bugs and should probably report it.


I sware, alot of the people using the character builder remind me of a lot of the exploiters in online games.. like when the people find someway to get to a location they are obviously not suppose to be able to get to and they claim if they got there it was clearly intended to be able to be done.. since after all, no program ever has bugs in it, right?
The feat says:
Benefit: Choose a type of implement.

Keyword here is TYPE. A sorcerer picks a type of implement: implements that are light blades. He happens to have a dagger implement that meets that exact description. The feat does not say "Choose the specific implement from the description of your character class."

I think that your point regarding the character builder is absolutly true, but this strict interpretation of the wording is fundamentally flawed. We know that daggers are light blades. We know that daggers are also implements. If what you are saying is true than the Implement Expertise feats for weapon groups should not exist at all as no one can take them.

The sorcerer chooses a type of implement, such as light blades, which includes his dagger. Where is the problem here? Do you honestly think that the implement expertise feat was designed to specifically exclude sorceres that use daggers? Do you really think Wizards to make an implement expertise feat for every possible weapon that could be used as an implement?

Imagine if you will a made up class whose weapon choices were restricted to the greatsword right on the class description. Would Weapon Focus (Heavy Blades) still apply? Would any other blade feat apply? Of course they would, since a greatsword falls into the heavy blade category. Why then do people think that a dagger implement wouldn't be affected by an implement expertise feat that includes daggers?

Swordmages can use any light blade or heavy blade as an implement. Do you have a problem with a swordmage picking up the feat for light blades or heavy blades?

Your argument is that since "light blades" isn't an implement type a sorcerer can't use the feat, despite the fact that his implement type is within the category of light blades. What myself and others have said is that implements have been grouped in weapon groups for the specific implements that are also weapons.

Another example: Your argument is exactly the same as saying Implement Expertise: Fruit doesn't apply to a Gnome Foodslinger because the character description says Implements: Apples or a Mug o' Beer. You point to the Implement Expertise: Mug o' Beer and say "wheres the Apple implement feat?!" and the rest of the posters here keep pointing to the fact that an apple is a freaking fruit.
Why is there an Implement Expertise for Whips then? I cant find a class that can use whips as an implement or a feat that lets you like the multiclass Swordmage does with light and heavy blade.

 You do realize you've replied to a 4-year-old thread, right?

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