Versatile master is broken

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Half elf just became the only playable race for non fighter/rangers that want damage. This is because it grants a FULL at will power and that is not balanced. With this and anything that grants crit range 18-20 you can easily get DPR well over the tempest and the storm warden COMBIND at an equal level.

This feat is unbalanced, please delete it, I see no real fix unless you want to delete just the at will portion.

This is at least 100X worse than the veterans armor abuse because it litteraly invalidates any other race for classes that have OoE, or have str primary attacks, at least at paragon and above.
They won't delete the feat.

However, removing the at-will power becoming at-will leaves the feat as still being quite nasty, and its possible they'll do so, the same way they fixed Veteran's Armor. Its not like the feat would suck without that boost.

Its clearly very broken, though. There was a reason there wasn't an at-will swap power in the PHB.

I think there's a better solution, though:

Add the requirement that you PMC to the feat.

This fixes the feat, because it means that while you're gaining an additional at-will power, you've already gained the ability to swap for it anyway (via PMCing), so any power you gain this way will only be the second best power you could have taken. Given that typically the problem is that you're inflating your at-will power, this won't really enable you to do so, and it fits more in with being a "Versatile Master" flavorfully.
Half elf just became the only playable race for non fighter/rangers that want damage.

Hmm... I wonder why this is? Perhaps it might have more to do with the at-wills being chosen than the versatile master feat itself?
Titanium Dragon They won't delete the feat.

However, removing the at-will power becoming at-will leaves the feat as still being quite nasty, and its possible they'll do so, the same way they fixed Veteran's Armor. Its not like the feat would suck without that boost.

Its clearly very broken, though. There was a reason there wasn't an at-will swap power in the PHB.

TD we rarely agree and when we do I think its safe to say that the item in question is unfair. Personaly I can see the swap 11/12/20 being over powered, but unless a "never use this in the actual game combo" comes up I think it is perfectly fine this feat is possibly the most broken feat handed to us by any designers and it litteraly makes every other part of the race irrelivant as a 16 + expertise is "good enough" accept that you get to take a -1 to hit in exchange for 2 attacks.

It gets even more unfair with OoE which was NOT meant to let you attack twice for like a bajillion crits, or with barbarian who already gets 2 broken encounter powers, or with any one who can MC. Infact SB twin strike or Vangurads lighting or chaos bolt can improve every single build to the point where its better to be a half elf than a freeking on stat character! ><

Hmm... I wonder why this is? Perhaps it might have more to do with the at-wills being chosen than the versatile master feat itself?

Nope, it is broken period because there are like 6 at wills which on other classes are NOT balanced.
The swap 11/12/20 is pretty potent, as you can replace a weaker PP power with a stronger class power, but really, I'm not sure if that's a problem - they spent a feat to do so, and I'm not sure how many characters would want to swap more than one of them. Multiclassing power swap feats are strong, to be sure, but they aren't broken and this is rather similar; it allows you to switch up to three powers, but you get less advantage because you have to pick lower level powers.

Hmm... I wonder why this is? Perhaps it might have more to do with the at-wills being chosen than the versatile master feat itself?

Its because the feat is broken. At-will powers basically define classes, which is why previously you had to PMC to access them. They're stronger than normal powers because they're limited to certain classes. They aren't stronger in the sense of being absolutely better (though they are in some cases), but rather in the sense of being better because you can spam them round after round.

PS. It is "Versatile master". Not trying to nitpick, but it makes it easier to read the thread (and makes it more likely to be taken seriously) if the title is spelled correctly.
PS. It is "Versatile master". Not trying to nitpick, but it makes it easier to read the thread (and makes it more likely to be taken seriously) if the title is spelled correctly.

Fixed

The swap 11/12/20 is pretty potent, as you can replace a weaker PP power with a stronger class power, but really, I'm not sure if that's a problem - they spent a feat to do so, and I'm not sure how many characters would want to swap more than one of them. Multiclassing power swap feats are strong, to be sure, but they aren't broken and this is rather similar; it allows you to switch up to three powers, but you get less advantage because you have to pick lower level powers.

Please do read the feat. You dont have to select lower level powers, you can select other PP powers RAW, unless im mistaken as it doesnt say or lower its also intended to give you random PP powers.

Even if it is just lower level powers its still REALLY good but not broken by any means (it just becomes the defacto cascade of blades)
They won't delete the feat.

However, removing the at-will power becoming at-will leaves the feat as still being quite nasty, and its possible they'll do so, the same way they fixed Veteran's Armor. Its not like the feat would suck without that boost.

Its clearly very broken, though. There was a reason there wasn't an at-will swap power in the PHB.

First the "removing the at-will power becoming at-will" made me twitch in irony.

Second, if they do something as drastic as they did with Veteran's Armor? This feat becomes rather painful. 5 Feats to access the "Half-elf Racial Paragon Path" at level 11, when you have a total of 7 at that time is painful. Moreso when you tack on the Weapon/Implement Expertise feats to fill #6.

I won't say that the At-Will part is not broken without further study, but with one change to the biggest breaker and things would calm down again. Make Oath of Enmity work with only Avenger Powers and Paragon Path powers.

After that, check again on how badly things are broken with this feat.

Its because the feat is broken. At-will powers basically define classes...

Isn't the advantage of the Half-elf supposed to be bridging the gap between classes? Their racial features are rather basically non-existant when compared to any other race until Versatile Mastery came to be.
It's not even close to being broken. Know why? Half-elves don't get a Str or Dex bonus, which means all the classes that would supposedly be broken with the feat are still going to be lagging behind every race that does have those bonii.
It's not even close to being broken. Know why? Half-elves don't get a Str or Dex bonus, which means all the classes that would supposedly be broken with the feat are still going to be lagging behind every race that does have those bonii

wrong

Feat
-1 to hit -primary stat damage
+1 attacks

This is broken therefor versatile is broken.
wrong

Feat
-1 to hit -primary stat damage
+1 attacks

This is broken therefor versatile is broken.

There could be another place where that "equation" is broken.
It could be "Multiple attacks are broken."

The flag would STILL be raised if they killed the Half-elf Versatile Mastery feat. Paragon MC into Fighter or Ranger and grab two Jagged Weapons! Sure, the Half-elf version blows this out of the water still, but that is why I'm agreeing something should be done on the OoE side. Limit OoE to just Melee Basic Attacks, Avenger Powers, and Paragon Path Powers. The Paragon Path powers you may even want to keep out, as players could interpret it as "PMC gaining Twin Strike is a Paragon Path Power".
Isn't the advantage of the Half-elf supposed to be bridging the gap between classes? Their racial features are rather basically non-existant when compared to any other race until Versatile Mastery came to be.

No. The half-elf is supposed to give you some multiclassing ability. Its not supposed to break the game in half.

It's not even close to being broken. Know why? Half-elves don't get a Str or Dex bonus, which means all the classes that would supposedly be broken with the feat are still going to be lagging behind every race that does have those bonii.

This isn't relevant for any number of reasons. Firstly, there are ways to abuse this within their own ability scores - for example, a paladin with Eyebite. Secondly, there's no reason to believe that there won't be powerful at-will abilities ever in charisma or constitution.

Thirdly, it just doesn't matter.

It could be "Multiple attacks are broken."

The problem is greater than "Just grab Twin Strike".

You could use riposite strike with a fighter or strengthadin or swordmage - riposite strike is perfectly fair as a rogue power, but its quite unfair on a defender.

You could use righteous brand with any strength-based character.

Ect.

The flag would STILL be raised if they killed the Half-elf Versatile Mastery feat. Paragon MC into Fighter or Ranger and grab two Jagged Weapons! Sure, the Half-elf version blows this out of the water still, but that is why I'm agreeing something should be done on the OoE side. Limit OoE to just Melee Basic Attacks, Avenger Powers, and Paragon Path Powers. The Paragon Path powers you may even want to keep out, as players could interpret it as "PMC gaining Twin Strike is a Paragon Path Power".

PMCing is fine because you basically trade at-will trading for PP features. It turns out that this is about a fair trade.

As for the swapping, I'll have to read the feat.
Its clearly very broken, though. There was a reason there wasn't an at-will swap power in the PHB.

Is that exactly what you can do if you paragon multiclass?

It is already built into the core system, the versatile master feat just makes it more accessible for half elfs

I think people are over reacting a little here
Is that exactly what you can do if you paragon multiclass?

It is already built into the core system, the versatile master feat just makes it more accessible for half elfs

I think people are over reacting a little here

Incorrect.

PMCing has an enormous cost associated with it - you don't gain paragon path abilities.

Feats are very, very cheap.

People aren't overreacting. Its really, really bad.

Incidentally, this feat would be perfectly fair if it required you to PMC to take it. Probably a better suggestion, really; just add that requirement and the feat works fine. It makes half elves the king of PMCers, but is that really a bad thing?

And no, Undone, you cannot swap your powers with PP powers. Paragon Path powers are not class powers, and ergo cannot be swapped for in this manner.
Half elf just became the only playable race for non fighter/rangers that want damage. This is because it grants a FULL at will power and that is not balanced. With this and anything that grants crit range 18-20 you can easily get DPR well over the tempest and the storm warden COMBIND at an equal level.

This feat is unbalanced, please delete it, I see no real fix unless you want to delete just the at will portion.

This is at least 100X worse than the veterans armor abuse because it litteraly invalidates any other race for classes that have OoE, or have str primary attacks, at least at paragon and above.

I'll be the first to admit I haven't paid too much attention to the character optimization threads lately, but I'm totally unconvinced. You declare something needs errata, and your evidence is...what? That you think it needs errata?

What, SPECIFICALLY, breaks the character? And, once you've built that broken build, why should I believe that this feat is the part of that equation that's broken?

In other words: please back up your claims with evidence.
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A simple, obvious example would be a fighter who gets Riposte Strike from the rogue.

For those out of the loop:

You attack with Riposte Strike, marking your target.
Riposte Strike gives you what amounts to a basic attack back against them if they whack you.

So now, you've put your foe in the position where, regardless of what they do, you get two attacks against them, at x[W] + ability modifier damage per attack, using whatever weapon you want - including a very high damage two-handed weapon. This build is capable of over 100 DPR with their at-will power. Remember, the Stormwarden, when the PHB came out, was doing about 80. And you're a fighter on top of all that.

Or you could be a fighter and take the cleric power which gives your ally a +str modifier bonus to their attack rolls if you hit. Given strength is your primary ability score, the only sacrifice is not being able to use Dual Strike, which is pretty universally regarded as broken by those in the know. So you're basically giving an ally +str mod to their attack rolls every round, at no cost to yourself.

Or you could be a wand wizard, with high dexterity and intelligence. You take this for Twin Strike and use a bow, so now you can deal striker-level damage with your at-will powers.

You can be a rogue. You're a daggermaster, so you critical on an 18-20, you attack twice per round, you add more damage thanks to sneak attack than a ranger does, and your odds of hitting are higher. You use daggers, sure, but for that small cost at damage (1d4 vs what, 1d10?) you're instead getting at least a +1 bonus to hit over the ranger, if not a +2 bonus to hit if they aren't using a light blade. You will easily outdamage any other rogue, and you might be capable of outdamaging a ranger, though I haven't crunched all the numbers necessary.

Or something else incredibly stupid.

Thing is, with PMCing, you aren't capable of causing issues with these builds, because you lose your PP benefits. But with this feat, you don't lose those benefits.
No. The half-elf is supposed to give you some multiclassing ability. Its not supposed to break the game in half.

And if Oath of Enmity was limited in the way I suggested, does Versatile Master break the game in half?

The problem is greater than "Just grab Twin Strike".

You could use riposite strike with a fighter or strengthadin or swordmage - riposite strike is perfectly fair as a rogue power, but its quite unfair on a defender.


You could use righteous brand with any strength-based character.

Ect.

First, your Riposte Strike argument fails when trying to put it on a normal Strengthadin or Swordmage. Due to the sole fact that it requires DEX to land the first blow, otherwise you won't get the immediate interrupt chance to attack an enemy who attacked you.
On a Str/Dex fighter? I'll give you my reasoning at the end of this post.

Righteous Brand? I know people have complained about it due to it using Strength, instead of the Cleric tetriary stat Cha, that At-Wills go by. This one deals more with the At-Will rather then it going outside of the class.

With damage optimization? It is a case of "Lets grab Twin Strike." It stands out like a nail.

Feats are very, very cheap.

Tell that to ANY Half-elf trying to PMC. Feats aren't very, very cheap.

People aren't overreacting. Its really, really bad.

I agree, they aren't overreacting. Its just everyone is jumping in one blasted direction without trying to see if the problem might be something else.

On that Str/Dex Fighter? Useful, but I don't see a Half-elf Riposte Strike build becoming an Optimizer's dream. Common choice? Yes, for Half-elf Str/Dex Fighters. The reason? The cost.

The cost? You are in a race whose Racial Features have NOTHING else going for it combat wise. No bonus to attack rolls due to the enemy or yourself being bloodied, no rerolls when you use that Daily or Encounter power you needed to hit, no forcing the enemy to reroll when you are attacked, no Extra square of speed, well just about everything every other race gets really. The ONLY combat racial feature a Half-elf has is Dilettante, and before Versatile Master it didn't deserve mention.
That is ignoring the Racial Ability Bonuses for a Half-elf. As you write off that argument that future books, which have yet to be released, may offer an At-Will power based off of Con or Cha that greatly enhances damage like Twin Strike.
With damage optimization? It is a case of "Lets grab Twin Strike." It stands out like a nail.

The problem is that people don't actually understand the issues with multiattacking. There are two.

1) Bonus stacking.

2) Number of attacks.

Either can cause problems. However, when the PHB was released, guess what?

Twin Strike's DPR was fine. You were looking at an 80-odd DPR character which, while strong, was not unreasonably so.

Now you're looking at a character with a DPR in the 130s, if not more. Its not reasonable. Why? Stacking. Chop bloodclaw and reckless down to size, type them to item, type the feats which add bonus damage to feat, you drop the DPR back down to the realm of reason.

Something which gives more than three attacks as an EP, or more than four attacks as a daily, will cause problems because your ability to deal too much damage is enormous.

The cost? You are in a race whose Racial Features have NOTHING else going for it combat wise. No bonus to attack rolls due to the enemy or yourself being bloodied, no rerolls when you use that Daily or Encounter power you needed to hit, no forcing the enemy to reroll when you are attacked, no Extra square of speed, well just about everything every other race gets really. The ONLY combat racial feature a Half-elf has is Dilettante, and before Versatile Master it didn't deserve mention.

The fundamental problem with this argument is that none of this actually matters. Let's assume we got rid of dual strike and twin strike.

This build would be unaffected, and would still have a DPR of well over 100.

And its not like Riposte Strike is a broken power for a rogue. Indeed, its not even all that good; it penalizes people for attacking the rogue, allowing them to discourage unmarked foes from attacking them and thus evading a bit of a pounding.

The reason that at-will swapping is not a feat is precisely this - the DPR gain from at-will swapping is ridiculous, even using something as innocous as Riposte Strike. The at-wills simply are not balanced to be used by members of other classes.
This build would be unaffected, and would still have a DPR of well over 100.

So the Fighter is insured a second attack against his choice of target if he hits with the first. One with Dex and one with Str, using a Light Blade. Mind sending me info via PM more on this build, something doesn't seem right and I'm curious if I'm missing something. Just curious if you may be rating the DPR 25% larger by accident.

Riposte Strike on a Fighter seems to match Dual Strike in damage when I try to put things together. Just Dual Strike still has one more attack it can make if the target doesn't target him with an attack.
This build would be unaffected, and would still have a DPR of well over 100.

And its not like Riposte Strike is a broken power for a rogue. Indeed, its not even all that good; it penalizes people for attacking the rogue, allowing them to discourage unmarked foes from attacking them and thus evading a bit of a pounding.

The reason that at-will swapping is not a feat is precisely this - the DPR gain from at-will swapping is ridiculous, even using something as innocous as Riposte Strike. The at-wills simply are not balanced to be used by members of other classes.

Riposte Strike is a power which requires dexterity and light blades. So to make this combination work, you are:

- Pumping dex at the expense of wis and con. You have two attack stats now (there's a silver lining there, of course; you now have higher AC and speed as a tempest than you would with chainmail)
- Using a race that gives no benefit to either str or dex and gives a benefit to a worthless stat for fighters
- Due to low wisdom, enemies have less to fear from your opportunity attacks and an easier time getting away from you.
- It requires a light blade to use. This is fine if you're a tempest, except that a tempest already has dual strike, which is almost certainly better if you actually *want* things to be attacking you, for a few reasons:

1) It doesn't punish the enemy for attacking you instead of someone else
2) Its second attack roll is not contingent on succeeding on the first attack roll.
3) Both attacks qualify for reckless attacker, while neither attack from riposte strike does.

Is this a good choice overall for a half-elf defender? Maybe, even probably. Is it the most effective way to build a fighter? Probably not; half elves aren't good fighters to begin with, and this isn't even necessarily the best combo for them. Is it broken? Almost certainly not.
Meh, its not broken as far as I can tell - its actually about the only reason to bother being a half-elf.

You guys, particularly TD ought to try repeating this as a mantra : "Its just an at-will, its not the end of the world."
- Pumping dex at the expense of wis and con. You have two attack stats now (there's a silver lining there, of course; you now have higher AC and speed as a tempest than you would with chainmail)
- Using a race that gives no benefit to either str or dex and gives a benefit to a worthless stat for fighters

Well, really, you're still looking at +8/+8.

- Due to low wisdom, enemies have less to fear from your opportunity attacks and an easier time getting away from you.

Sure, your wisdom isn't awesome, but many fighters have similar wisdom score (like, 12, up to 14 at epic). Added to that, Blade Opportunist can make up for it, if you want it to.

- It requires a light blade to use. This is fine if you're a tempest, except that a tempest already has dual strike, which is almost certainly better if you actually *want* things to be attacking you, for a few reasons:

Oh, its pointless if Dual Strike is allowable, as Dual Strike achieves higher DPR. But the entire point was:

The fundamental problem with this argument is that none of this actually matters. Let's assume we got rid of dual strike and twin strike.

His argument was that the problem was dual strike and twin strike, but I was trying to demonstrate this was still problematic.

1) It doesn't punish the enemy for attacking you instead of someone else

The point is to deal as much DPR as possible, and thus make an uberstriker, not to be an awesome defender. Though its worth noting, they're still taking a -2 penalty to hit anyone else.

Its also worth noting that foes always have this option; the reason they don't take it is because it is worse than just attacking you, most of the time. So basically, you're getting rid of a good option (attacking you) and forcing them to take a worse one (attack someone else), something they didn't want to do.

So more or less, its upside because you're taking away their best options. If they have to change over to attack other people, it means you're being more effective, as if it was better to attack other people in the first place, they'd be doing so in the first place.

Fundamentally, its an invalid argument because you're actually better off if they're forced to attack someone else because that is the option -they didn't want to have to take-.

2) Its second attack roll is not contingent on succeeding on the first attack roll.
3) Both attacks qualify for reckless attacker, while neither attack from riposte strike does.

Dual strike is better. No argument there. But you missed the point.

You guys, particularly TD ought to try repeating this as a mantra : "Its just an at-will, its not the end of the world."

At-wills are in many ways the most important ability you have, because you use them as often as everything else combined, if not more. They have a much greater impact on your DPC than anything else.

So in fact, it actually is.
Oh, its pointless if Dual Strike is allowable, as Dual Strike achieves higher DPR. But the entire point was:

His argument was that the problem was dual strike and twin strike, but I was trying to demonstrate this was still problematic.

I think it's a little imprecisely stated, but his point is essentially correct, insomuch as multiattack at-wills in general are too powerful because stacking damage is so high at this point. Riposte Strike is essentially a multi-attack at-will, albeit a much more situationally useful one, so it falls under essentially the same category that he was talking about.

Saying that multi-attacks aren't the problem with this feat and then demonstrating this point by showing another multi-attack doesn't quite work out. ;)

To showcase a contrast, where we could live in a world where multiattacks are OK:
Dire Radiance and Hellish Rebuke are both also effectively multiattack powers. They (in particular hellish rebuke) would also make more than decent choices for a defender to take in a similar manner as Riposte Strike. But because there is no massive static damage stacking for implement powers, it ends up being just a GOOD choice, not an overpowered one. This would arguably still be true even if Hellish Rebuke didn't provoke opportunity attacks; it's nice putting an enemy in a no-win situation that way, but it's far from broken.
I think it's a little imprecisely stated, but his point is essentially correct, insomuch as multiattack at-wills in general are too powerful because stacking damage is so high at this point. Riposte Strike is essentially a multi-attack at-will, albeit a much more situationally useful one, so it falls under essentially the same category that he was talking about.

Saying that multi-attacks aren't the problem with this feat and then demonstrating this point by showing another multi-attack doesn't quite work out. ;)

The problem is that, more or less, its not multiattacks which are the problem. Riposte strike is a perfectly fair at-will power for a rogue. Its not fair for a fighter. Indeed, there's an entire class of powers like this - they're powers which strikers have to penalize people for attacking them. You can abuse Eyebite in a similar manner, wherein the option is either to waste their turn attacking you, or attack someone else and take damage. Particularly effective if you're a paladin, as you can maintain your mark on them and still hurt them from range, and its all synergistic as it all builds on Charisma, one of your primary attributes.

To showcase a contrast, where we could live in a world where multiattacks are OK:
Dire Radiance and Hellish Rebuke are both also effectively multiattack powers. They (in particular hellish rebuke) would also make more than decent choices for a defender to take in a similar manner as Riposte Strike. But because there is no massive static damage stacking for implement powers, it ends up being just a GOOD choice, not an overpowered one. This would arguably still be true even if Hellish Rebuke didn't provoke opportunity attacks; it's nice putting an enemy in a no-win situation that way, but it's far from broken.

Well, you could argue that multiattack powers such as twin strike should be redesigned from the ground up - if I were to design 5th edition, I'd consider changing two-weapon attack powers in a certain, specific way.

Thing is, multiattack powers were not problematic in the PHB (other than blade cascade, due to its semi-infinite nature). They've become problematic due to stacking. If you fix the stacking, you fix the issue of the previously fair multiattacking powers.
The problem is that, more or less, its not multiattacks which are the problem. Riposte strike is a perfectly fair at-will power for a rogue. Its not fair for a fighter. Indeed, there's an entire class of powers like this - they're powers which strikers have to penalize people for attacking them. You can abuse Eyebite in a similar manner, wherein the option is either to waste their turn attacking you, or attack someone else and take damage. Particularly effective if you're a paladin, as you can maintain your mark on them and still hurt them from range, and its all synergistic as it all builds on Charisma, one of your primary attributes.

Sure, but that's just a good combination. It doesn't obsolete other paladin builds, it's just another option (and to be honest, one that people were already PMCing for before Versatile Master).

Riposte strike is different: it probably does too much damage on a defender. But that's not because Versatile Master is broken, it's because melee multiattacks are broken (and this is driven home by the point that fighters can do MORE damage at no cost by using one of their own class powers). The reason that Riposte Strike is too good for a fighter but not too good for a rogue is that Riposte Strike is not a multiattack power for a rogue. So it is indeed a multiattack power that is the problem here.
I sort of feel that all of the half-elf builds are a bit gimmicky. Down the road, maybe this feat will be a big problem, but for now, CON + CHA just doesn't work. I've tried and tried to make it broken, but I can't seem to find a way to make it happen.

The poor guys only have one other racial feat I'd ever take.

They're pretty good paladins, and OK warlocks, sure - but I don't think that being a better paladin will make them unbalanced, and I'm not convinced that anything much could make a warlock unbalanced. I designed a dual-striking hexhammer; got to exactly 111.11 DPR. I know that sounds pretty impressive, but it's about 35 behind a fighter, and you have to play a warlock.
I sort of feel that all of the half-elf builds are a bit gimmicky. Down the road, maybe this feat will be a big problem, but for now, CON + CHA just doesn't work. I've tried and tried to make it broken, but I can't seem to find a way to make it happen.

The thing is all characters must take a 16 primary and a 16 str/dex because they have to take a multi attack power to stay close in DPR as there are no other options. You are always behind if your at paragon teir. So you need to be a half elf since you get Paragon multiclassing without multiclassing. There are tons of powers not balanaced on other characters Scorching burst, vanguards lightning, twin strike, dual strike are the biggest culperates and characters without these MUST take them to stay even CLOSE to the half elf PCs

Simply put not being a half elf is like not taking expertise by 30th.

Side note: I am agreeing with TD, if you still dont think its broken than start stating up characters without dual/twin strike and try to keep your DPR within 50 of the twin or dual strikers, it is hard to be less than 30/40 behind the multi attacker.

EDIT: this thread was spawned off a rather absurd daggermaster avenger build but even a rogue is OP with this, a barbarian with dual strike would terrify me.
There are a number of builds on the charop boards using this feat to achieve new records of DPR. Congratulations, the best rogue is not really a rogue at all, but a ranger in disguise...

Half-Elf Brutal Scoundrel Rogue with Twin Strike, Multi Rogue, Paragon Daggermaster

Half-Elf Avenger with Twin Strike, Multi Rogue, Paragon Daggermaster

Those come to mind immediately.

There are other neat tricks that can be done which are dangerously powerful if not necessarily downright broken.

Half-Elf Paladin with Eyebite, Paragon Hospitaler

Etc.
I sort of feel that all of the half-elf builds are a bit gimmicky. Down the road, maybe this feat will be a big problem, but for now, CON + CHA just doesn't work. I've tried and tried to make it broken, but I can't seem to find a way to make it happen.

The poor guys only have one other racial feat I'd ever take.

They're pretty good paladins, and OK warlocks, sure - but I don't think that being a better paladin will make them unbalanced, and I'm not convinced that anything much could make a warlock unbalanced. I designed a dual-striking hexhammer; got to exactly 111.11 DPR. I know that sounds pretty impressive, but it's about 35 behind a fighter, and you have to play a warlock.

There's the Virtue of Valor Bard now, whose primary ability scores are Constitution and Charisma. But I think this feat works for the Bard without being broken and makes sense, considering the other abilities of the class.
Derp! Mistake about greatbows. /shame
You can't sneak attack with a Greatbow anyway, and you forgot to actually take Distant Advantage.

47.32 at 11th or 12th was the highest I saw on the CharOp boards. It gets out of hand more at higher levels.

Feats to use: Weapon Expertise, Weapon Focus, Nimble Blade, Backstabber, Devastating Critical, Versatile Master, one more of your choice

Weapons to use: Two Bloodiron +X daggers.

Start with 16s in both STR and DEX, increase at every opportunity. Close to melee / flanking for CA. Should be easy to hit on a 5+ if not better. With daggermaster, you crit on 18-20, so you have good odds of making at least one crit, and very very good odds of hitting with at least attack to apply your sneak attack damage.
How do you get over 100damage per round at lvl 11?

As soon as you get 2 Blood iron weapons your DPR is huge, OoE + 18-20 crit range and a blood iron weapon a crit on a basic attack is


6d10 (3d10 times 2)
2d10 (Devestating crit x2)

45 bonus critical damage which you have a 47% chance to deal damage with.

Note I didnt calculate any thing other than the crit damage as you have a almost a 50% chance to crit on one of the attacks which significantly ups your DPR.

That is with 0 damage bonuses of any kind, you can still add iron armbands, weapon focus heck the +3 enchancement

The actual break down is well over 100 DPR at paragon tier, note that you dont get as much damage till mid paragon at mid paragon you gain 4d10 to crits with war rings along with another 2d10 with the next ench bonus which brings it to 14d10 which you can maximize twice a day and a RRoT to automaticaly trigger them.

Critting almost 50% of the time is broken backwards, so it is a bad idea to allow this, without it critting that often is impossible.
OK, just to humor people:

Half-Elf Brutal Rogue
16 STR/16 DEX at level 1. The rest really don't matter.

Feats through 11th: Weapon Expertise (light blade), Weapon Focus (light blade), Nimble Blade, Backstabber, Devastating Critical, Versatile Master, Reckless Attacker (take something else at 10th and retrain it at 11th)

Dilettante power: Dual Strike (MP 7)

With only two +2 daggers instead of +3s (we're going to pretend that +2 bloodiron exists, and it's not really that hard to have two +3 bloodiron weapons at level 11, they're only a level 13 item, so you could start getting them at level 9)

Level 11 chance to hit with CA:
+5 level +4 str +3 proficiency +1 rogue weapon talent +2 enhancement +1 expertise +1 nimble blade +2 CA = +19

Average monster AC at level 11 (DMG 184): 25.

Miss on 1-5 (25%)
Hit on a 6-17 (60%)
Damage on hit: 1d4+4(str) +2 (enhance) + 2 (iron armbands) = 10.5 avg
Average sneak attack: 5d8 = 22.5

Crit on 18+ (15%)
Damage on crit: 4 (dagger) + 4 (str) + 2 (enhance) + 2 (iron armbands) + 2d10 (bloodiron) + 2d10 (bloodiron start of next turn) + 1d10 (devastating critical) = 14 + 5d10 = 37.5 avg (plus 40 for a maximized sneak attack)

Two misses: .0625 * 0 = 0
One normal, one miss: .30 * (10.5 + 22.5) = 9.9
Two normal hits: .36 * (2*10.5 + 22.5) = 15.66
One normal, one crit: .18 * (77.5 + 10.5) = 15.84
One crit, one miss: .075 * 77.5 = 5.8125
Two crits: .0225 * (2*37.5 + 40) = 2.5875

Total = 49.8 without even considering the melee basic extra attack...

Chance of at least one crit: 0.2775
Melee basic damage: 14.5 avg (same as dual strike +4 dex)
Melee basic crit: 41.5 avg (again, +4 dex)
Extra melee basic damage: .25 * 0 + .6 * 14.5 + .15 * 41.5 = 0 + 8.7 +6.225 = 14.925
Times chance of melee basic = 4.1416875

Total DPR = 53.9416875
Note that this is TRUE dpr, including miss chance, not simply average hit damage.

Oops, forgot weapon focus in all of these. Well, that will add about another 2 to the DPR. I'm not doing it all again.

If you have even one +3 dagger, you can imagine this gets better.

By level 16, you have another +3 to hit from levels, +1 from ability, +1 from expertise, +1 from enhancement (and monster AC went up 5, so you're up by 1), and your iron armbands are doing +4 instead of +2, and your ability damage is higher, and your crit damage is at minimum 2d10 higher from 2 +3 bloodiron daggers, let alone whatever other feats you want to toss in the mix.

Also, I didn't include devastating critical twice, which is being debated. That will also increase your damage, if your DM allows you to reapply it with bloodiron.
Sure, but that's just a good combination. It doesn't obsolete other paladin builds, it's just another option (and to be honest, one that people were already PMCing for before Versatile Master).

PMCing gives up a ton. If you're already PMCing for that, then Vesatile Master is going to overpower it.

You are looking at dealing mark damage, plus 1 or 2d6 + enhancement + 2*cha + 3/6/9 + random other stuff, AND preventing them from attacking you, AND giving them at least a -2 penalty to hit (and with Psychic Lock, -4!).

Riposte strike is different: it probably does too much damage on a defender. But that's not because Versatile Master is broken, it's because melee multiattacks are broken (and this is driven home by the point that fighters can do MORE damage at no cost by using one of their own class powers). The reason that Riposte Strike is too good for a fighter but not too good for a rogue is that Riposte Strike is not a multiattack power for a rogue. So it is indeed a multiattack power that is the problem here.

The problem is that this proves you wrong. An at-will power which is fair for one class is not necessarily fair for another, which is the entire point.

This is why Versatile Master is broken. There are at-will powers which are fair for one class and not fair for others.

You are denying what I'm saying, but your argument is actually in support of Versatile Master being broken. You just aren't seeing it.

Sorry, you cannot say "Versatile Master isn't broken, its powers which are perfectly fair for their base classes but are problematic for other classes which are broken!" Because, well, the only way they could get those without PMCing (which is a fair cost for them) is... Versatile Master. And therefore it is Versatile Master which is causing the problem.
You are denying what I'm saying, but your argument is actually in support of Versatile Master being broken. You just aren't seeing it.

Sorry, you cannot say "Versatile Master isn't broken, its powers which are perfectly fair for their base classes but are problematic for other classes which are broken!" Because, well, the only way they could get those without PMCing (which is a fair cost for them) is... Versatile Master. And therefore it is Versatile Master which is causing the problem.

Riposte Strike uses a mechanic which is in and of itself demonstrably broken, it just so happens that the base class isn't able to take advantage of that fact. But the combination of defender + punishment at-will is not in and of itself broken, as evidenced by the fact that Hellish Rebuke and Dire Radiance are just fine on a defender.

It is always possible for you to poach an at-will from another class. Most of the time, this comes with the tradeoff of giving up paragon path features. In this particular case, it instead comes with the tradeoff of giving up a feat slot and playing a race that is generally not very strong otherwise. But if the at-will is inherently broken in conjunction with another class's mechanics, the existence of Versatile Master is almost irrelevant. The thing that matters is whether an at-will is broken in conjunction with another class's paragon path features, because THAT is the only new mechanic that Versatile Master actually allows.

Are half elves now the best choice for some builds because of Versatile Master? Yes, certainly. Does the addition of paragon path features to a given PMC build result in any truly broken mechanics? Not as far as I can see.
Essentialy this feat ENCOURAGES people to break the game and farther divides unoptimized and optimized to the point where unoptimzied is any one whos not a half elf ranger or tempest or PMC into them.

Simply but it is infact broken beyond belief because even if they had a -2 NOT +2 con but -2 to whatever stat is your primary they would STILL be the best race in the game by miles. Nothing else they do matters just that they give you the best at will in the game. Essentialy would a race be balanced if it gave a human version of half elf (Chose an at will not of your class) I dont think any one is arguing that it would be fair.

It might not be broken in some cases but the number of cases it wouldnt be fair in would far exceed it.
I think there's a better solution, though:

Add the requirement that you PMC to the feat.

This fixes the feat, because it means that while you're gaining an additional at-will power, you've already gained the ability to swap for it anyway (via PMCing), so any power you gain this way will only be the second best power you could have taken. Given that typically the problem is that you're inflating your at-will power, this won't really enable you to do so, and it fits more in with being a "Versatile Master" flavorfully.

This is, I hope, how they'll approach it. Conceptually, I like the feat, and I like the flavor it allows for the half-elf. I honestly thought it did require PMC when I read it in the store - if it's tolerable with that requirement, that's how I'd prefer to see it run.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
It is always possible for you to poach an at-will from another class. Most of the time, this comes with the tradeoff of giving up paragon path features. In this particular case, it instead comes with the tradeoff of giving up a feat slot and playing a race that is generally not very strong otherwise. But if the at-will is inherently broken in conjunction with another class's mechanics, the existence of Versatile Master is almost irrelevant. The thing that matters is whether an at-will is broken in conjunction with another class's paragon path features, because THAT is the only new mechanic that Versatile Master actually allows.

Why are half-elves "bad"?

Answer: Half elves are "bad" because the classes that their stats are best suited for, the paladin and the warlock, aren't the strongest of classes. Also, people typically want cha/int or con/int rather than cha/con for their warlocks, and it seems like the charisma paladin isn't terribly popular. So they're a bit underrepresented, but it doesn't actually make the race -bad-.

It is indeed possible to poach an at-will from another class...

At the cost of giving up all of your paragon path features

Let's see... a feat, or giving up all of your paragon path features?

The feat is massively stronger because you give up far less.

So the basis for your argument is wrong on both fronts. Half-elves aren't underpowered, they simply lacked a strong class which synergized well with their ability scores, and a feat is massively cheaper than paragon path features.

The problem is that the cost (a feat) is far too small relative to the benefit (at-will power swapping), and the "cost" of being a half-elf is really irrelevant as compared to the benefit.

You just don't want this to be broken. But it is. At-will swapping as a feat would be broken, and this is stronger. Being a half-elf does not mean you suck.
OK, just to humor people:

Half-Elf Brutal Rogue
16 STR/16 DEX at level 1. The rest really don't matter.

Feats through 11th: Weapon Expertise (light blade), Weapon Focus (light blade), Nimble Blade, Backstabber, Devastating Critical, Versatile Master, Reckless Attacker (take something else at 10th and retrain it at 11th)

Not qualified for Reckless Attacker. Requires multiclass feat. I'll remove Nimble Blade, as being the least useful of those feats.

Dilettante power: Dual Strike (MP 7)

With only two +2 daggers instead of +3s (we're going to pretend that +2 bloodiron exists, and it's not really that hard to have two +3 bloodiron weapons at level 11, they're only a level 13 item, so you could start getting them at level 9)

Level 11 chance to hit with CA:
+5 level +4 str +3 proficiency +1 rogue weapon talent +2 enhancement +1 expertise +1 nimble blade +2 CA = +19

Removed Nimble Blade; +18

Average monster AC at level 11 (DMG 184): 25.

Miss on 1-5 (30%)
Hit on a 7-17 (55%)
Damage on hit: 1d4+4 (str) +2 (enhance) + 2 (iron armbands) = 10.5 avg
Average sneak attack: 5d8 = 22.5

Damage on hit: d4 +2 (enhance) +2 (iron armbands) +2 (weapon focus) = 8.5 average
Average sneak attack: 3d8 + 4 (STR) = 17.5

Crit on 18+ (15%)
Damage on crit: 4 (dagger) + 4 (str) + 2 (enhance) + 2 (iron armbands) + 2d10 (bloodiron) + 2d10 (bloodiron start of next turn) + 1d10 (devastating critical) = 14 + 5d10 = 37.5 avg (plus 40 for a maximized sneak attack)

Damage on crit: 4 (dagger) + 2 (enhance) + 2 (iron armbands) + 2 (weapon focus) 2d10 (bloodiron) + 2d10 (bloodiron start of next turn) + 1d10 (devastating critical) = 14 + 5d10 = 35.5 avg (plus 24 for a maximized sneak attack +4 for STR bonus on sneak attack))

Two misses: .0625 * 0 = 0
One normal, one miss: .30 * (10.5 + 22.5) = 9.9
Two normal hits: .36 * (2*10.5 + 22.5) = 15.66
One normal, one crit: .18 * (77.5 + 10.5) = 15.84
One crit, one miss: .075 * 77.5 = 5.8125
Two crits: .0225 * (2*37.5 + 40) = 2.5875

Two misses: .09 * 0 = 0
One normal, one miss: .33 * (8.5 + 17.5) = 8.58
Two normal hits: .3025 * (2*8.5 + 17.5) = 10.43625
One normal, one crit: .165 * (63.5 + 8.5) = 11.88
One crit, one miss: .09 * 63.5 = 5.715
Two crits: .0225 * (2*35.5 + 28) = 2.2275

Total = 49.8 without even considering the melee basic extra attack...

Total = 38.8375 without considering the melee basic attack

Chance of at least one crit: 0.2775
Melee basic damage: 14.5 avg (same as dual strike +4 dex)
Melee basic crit: 39.5 avg (same as dual strike +4 dex)
Extra melee basic damage: .25 * 0 + .6 * 14.5 + .15 * 41.5 = 0 + 8.7 +6.225 = 14.925
Times chance of melee basic = 4.1416875

Melee basic damage: 12.5 avg (same as dual strike +4 STR)
Melee basic crit: 39.5 avg (again, +4 STR)
Extra melee basic damage: .3 * 0 + .55 * 12.5 + .15 * 39.5 = 0 + 6.875 +5.925 = 12.8
Times chance of melee basic (.3; you can have more than one) = 3.84

Total DPR = 53.9416875
Note that this is TRUE dpr, including miss chance, not simply average hit damage.

Total DPR with combat advantage = 42.68

Oops, forgot weapon focus in all of these. Well, that will add about another 2 to the DPR. I'm not doing it all again.

That's not all you forgot.

Sneak attack is 3d8, not 5d8; you don't get to add your strength to the dual strikes, and you had a feat without prerequisites. Your DPR is more than 10 points too high. Also, you have three paragon feats, which I just noticed, but, like you, I don't feel like redoing it.

A tempest fighter/daggermaster has somewhat higher DPR with combat advantage - I believe something like 47, but I may be mistaken in my recollection. I'm personally OK with a rogue having the same DPR as a fighter. To be honest, I feel that it should be higher, but I certainly don't see it as a problem when it's the same. The comparison will get worse for the brutal scoundrel over paragon as better gear is added, because the tempest fighter is going to be better at hitting things (and will therefore add his gear more times).
So... a feat is broken becuase of a few specific builds(rogue and dual strike and daggermaster, mostly...) and abusing very specific weapons and it only really starts to come into power at 11th level and doesn't really kick in fully till mid to late paragon?

I honestly don't see the problem.

I do like the Paladin with Eyebite, but it's hardly a game breaker... lol you attacked someone else cause I'm invisible... take 21 damage "lol", I use Eyebite again...LOL
Preferences... Not where they should be. Asking someone if they're Trolling you is in violation of section 3 of the Code of Conduct.
Why are half-elves "bad"?

Answer: Half elves are "bad" because the classes that their stats are best suited for, the paladin and the warlock, aren't the strongest of classes. Also, people typically want cha/int or con/int rather than cha/con for their warlocks, and it seems like the charisma paladin isn't terribly popular. So they're a bit underrepresented, but it doesn't actually make the race -bad-.

It is indeed possible to poach an at-will from another class...

At the cost of giving up all of your paragon path features

Let's see... a feat, or giving up all of your paragon path features?

The feat is massively stronger because you give up far less.

The feat is absolutely stronger than paragon multiclassing, you'll get no argument there either. But paragon multiclassing itself is, if anything, even MORE maligned as a general practice than using half elves is. So "this feat is stronger than paragon multiclassing" doesn't logically lead to "this is broken", any more than "this feat is stronger than improved second wind" does.
The feat is absolutely stronger than paragon multiclassing, you'll get no argument there either. But paragon multiclassing itself is, if anything, even MORE maligned as a general practice than using half elves is. So "this feat is stronger than paragon multiclassing" doesn't logically lead to "this is broken", any more than "this feat is stronger than improved second wind" does.

This feat obsoletes humans best racial feature.

This feat allows for more than double previous DPR caps.

This feat allows OoE to be more broken than it should be.

This feat forces every one to be half elf or lag in DPR. (unless ranger or fighter)

Each of these are bad for the game but the last one is the worst, it genuinely removes other options from a game by forcing all races to take it to be optimal.