Becoming a lich

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Now, I don't think there are any actual rules for playing a lich yet.

However, on page 177 in Monster Manual it tells the ritual for becoming a lich. On page 179 of DMG it gives you the template. My first question is about the different in requirements for the ritual and for the template, it's weird that they are not the same.

Second, I would like to ask if anyone has any suggestion on how to implement the lich template for a PC. One of my players is interested in it and I'd like to know how to handle it.

Thanks
. . . Wow. You know, I never knew there was a Ritual for this. I wonder if its a holdover from some point in development where they were considering allowing PCs to use templates?
Although the Monster Manual lists a ritual for becoming a lich, we can view this as fluff more than mechanics because of this line in the ritual:
At the conclusion of this ritual, you die, transform into a lich, and gain the lich template (Dungeon Master’s Guide 179).

In the Monster Manual, it says:
“Lich” is a monster template that can be applied to nonplayer characters. See the Dungeon Master’s Guide for rules on creating new liches using the template.

In the DMG it says this about templates:
Functional templates adapt a monster or a nonplayer character to a given purpose in an adventure.

You *can* become a lich, and then you can hand your character sheet to the DM.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
On the level difference, maybe it was just something that was missed in editing after a change in one book.

On how to implement it, either a paragon path or epic destiny, or something like the Dhampyr where you use feats to gain abilities.

Note that currently, liches seem to be pretty much evil, and from what I've seen, WotC seems to have kept evil character options limited (most notably, the PH and FRPG don't have channel divinity feats for the evil and chaotic evil deities).
Yep there is another case in the Open Grave where you become a Vampire Lord if you do a good job to an artifact and later are expected to give control to the DM.

Adding templates is a very bad way to go, there is no system in place to balance and only serves to power up (you'd have to give everyone templates and ramp up the difficulty... something that is much harder to do)

If you don't care and maybe even want your character to become the next big bad in the future then you can become a lich but you cannot go on the same way as you were before.
I do not intend to let the player run around playing a lich due to lack of rules. However, I was trying to find out how to apply this for the purpose of the events that will happen right after the transformation, if the player should chose to invoke the ritual.

How much "LA" (if it existed in 4th ed) would you suppose the template would cost?
I do not intend to let the player run around playing a lich due to lack of rules. However, I was trying to find out how to apply this for the purpose of the events that will happen right after the transformation, if the player should chose to invoke the ritual.

How much "LA" (if it existed in 4th ed) would you suppose the template would cost?

Roughly, it would double his effective level-power. He'll have twice the HP, and a handful of really nasty new tricks. Also note that he won't be able to play well with a living party, due to the effects of his Lich Aura.

As stated before, however, this is not intended for a player at all, so proceed with utmost caution.

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

As a side note, auras can be turned off, as per the glossary entry in the MM. "A creature can drop its aura or reactivate it as a minor action." It would give a ranged character some added benefit to dissuade melee engagements and may free up defenders a little, but it shouldn't hinder the party too much used wisely.
I do not intend to let the player run around playing a lich due to lack of rules. However, I was trying to find out how to apply this for the purpose of the events that will happen right after the transformation, if the player should chose to invoke the ritual.

If the player invokes the ritual, his character becomes an NPC, and he has to make a new one, and you get a new villain. Make him aware of this beforehand.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
There is no attempt in 4e to let players do absolutely anything they want.

A PC cannot be a Lich. End of story.
Now, I don't think there are any actual rules for playing a lich yet.

However, on page 177 in Monster Manual it tells the ritual for becoming a lich. On page 179 of DMG it gives you the template. My first question is about the different in requirements for the ritual and for the template, it's weird that they are not the same.

Second, I would like to ask if anyone has any suggestion on how to implement the lich template for a PC. One of my players is interested in it and I'd like to know how to handle it.

Thanks

Funny you should ask, the wizard in my game actually just last week became a lich upon his death, after a secret deal with Erandis d'Vol.

I adapted the Lich template for him, and he gave up the next feat he gained for it:

As per the template
  • Can add the necrotic keyword to any arcane spell he casts.
  • Gains immunity to Poison and Disease.
  • As a daily, can recharge any encounter power he knows.


Adapted from the template
  • Gains Resist (All) equal to half his level.
  • Gains Vulnerability (Radiant) equal to his level.


And that's it. No other rules, modifications or restrictions. Oh, except for the need to breathe, eat, drink and age; those went as well, but are hardly mechanically relevant.

EDIT: Also, note, all the PCs in my current game are getting a couple of nice bonus things; feats, above level items, & so forth, that we develop during roleplaying the game. To balance the template above, there'd be more downsides. I prefer to do so through roleplaying, however.
Chandrak's awesome solutions to the 5-minute workday 'problem'
97183719 wrote:
Seeing as there is a disconnect between balance (quantifiable) and fun, (subjective and personal) discussing fun in a thread about balance because you find one system more enjoyable than another is as helpful as discussing religion in a thread about architectural engineering because you think cathedrals look prettier than outhouses.
You *can* become a lich, and then you can hand your character sheet to the DM.

This. And wow, would you not want to do that in my game.

-Lefty
Jim Crocker, Managing Partner Modern Myths, LLC Northampton, MA www.modern-myths.com
There is no attempt in 4e to let players do absolutely anything they want.

A PC cannot be a Lich. End of story.

Honestly, If I was a player trying to become a lich, I'd consider this a pretty feeble solution. If a player wants to do something, a DM should let him/her. Invisible walls are just lame.
If a player wants to do something, a DM should let him/her.

You left out the words 'reasonable, consistent with the established campaign, and balanced in relation to other PCs and powers of a comparable level' between "something" and the comma, and the word 'probably' between "should" and "let".

Other than that, I completely agree.

-Lefty
Jim Crocker, Managing Partner Modern Myths, LLC Northampton, MA www.modern-myths.com
Honestly, If I was a player trying to become a lich, I'd consider this a pretty feeble solution. If a player wants to do something, a DM should let him/her. Invisible walls are just lame.

Well, you are certainly free to do so in your campaign. but don't expect to find rules support for it.

This seems to be one of the real differences in 4e games design from earlier editions,. There is no attempt to provide rules for PCs to be/do anything they want. There are limits as to what is supported by the rules. Playing liches seems to be outside those limits.

Perhaps there will be rules later for such thing but, for now, it seems to be out of scope for the 4e rules set.
Rule (1) of Roleplaying: There is always a player who wants to be a werewolf / vampire / lich / demon / dragon.

Rule (2) of Roleplaying: If they get their way, no good will ever come of it.

Rule (3) of Roleplaying: They will tell the story of it the rest of their life, and every time they do, they will start the story with, "So, in this one game, I tricked my DM into letting me be a..." and they will end the story with, "... and so the game was pretty stupid after that, but how cool was my character?"

----

D&D is heroic fantasy. If you are not specifically running a villains game (and these are rarely as fun as they initially sound), then your players should be heroes. They do not deliberately kill innocents, they do not deliberately bring misery and despair to the good, and they do not condemn themselves to eternal damnation just so they can have a few cool abilities.

The monsters live on the DM side of the table. Feel free to rearrange the seating if any monsters have accidentally ended up being printed on someone's character sheet.
...D&D is heroic fantasy. ... your players should be heroes. They do not deliberately kill innocents, they do not deliberately bring misery and despair to the good, and they do not condemn themselves to eternal damnation just so they can have a few cool abilities...

I think this has pretty much always been true, but this is especially true in 4th edition. By design.

See page 19 of the PHB. Do not expect WotC to give any serious support in 4e to running nasty evil monsters like liches as PCs.
Although the Monster Manual lists a ritual for becoming a lich, we can view this as fluff more than mechanics because of this line in the ritual:
At the conclusion of this ritual, you die, transform into a lich, and gain the lich template (Dungeon Master’s Guide 179).

If you die and transform into a wraith (or whatever the soul-sucking monster is - a specter?) do you become a PC wraith (or whatever)?

Obviously not. This appears to be exactly the same.
You *can* become a lich, and then you can hand your character sheet to the DM.

Agree completely.
Now, I don't think there are any actual rules for playing a lich yet.

As a monster? Yes. As a PC? no.

However, on page 177 in Monster Manual it tells the ritual for becoming a lich.

This is not neccessarily an indication that it's okay for a character to be one. Monsters can use rituals as well as players, and the fact that this one is located in the MM rather than the PHB would seem to imply it's not intended for player use.

On page 179 of DMG it gives you the template. My first question is about the different in requirements for the ritual and for the template, it's weird that they are not the same.

In what sense?


Second, I would like to ask if anyone has any suggestion on how to implement the lich template for a PC. One of my players is interested in it and I'd like to know how to handle it.

Lich powers, as-is, are not balanced for PC use. I would suggest doing something along the lines of the dhampire bloodline feats detailed in the dragon article on Dhampires: rebalance the lich abilities for player use, and offer them as power-swap feats, or regular feats.
See page 19 of the PHB. Do not expect WotC to give any serious support in 4e to running nasty evil monsters like liches as PCs.

Until good liches make their return. Good times.
D&D is heroic fantasy. If you are not specifically running a villains game (and these are rarely as fun as they initially sound), then your players should be heroes. They do not deliberately kill innocents, they do not deliberately bring misery and despair to the good, and they do not condemn themselves to eternal damnation just so they can have a few cool abilities.

My PC doesn't care about the abilities, he's doing it for roleplay reasons. Also, regarding Heroism, I run Eberron. The races are in no ways 'this race is evil so it's evil'. The world is all about odd alliances, with politics > alignment.
Chandrak's awesome solutions to the 5-minute workday 'problem'
97183719 wrote:
Seeing as there is a disconnect between balance (quantifiable) and fun, (subjective and personal) discussing fun in a thread about balance because you find one system more enjoyable than another is as helpful as discussing religion in a thread about architectural engineering because you think cathedrals look prettier than outhouses.
My PC doesn't care about the abilities, he's doing it for roleplay reasons. Also, regarding Heroism, I run Eberron. The races are in no ways 'this race is evil so it's evil'. The world is all about odd alliances, with politics > alignment.

Any fool can do something stupid because it's what his character would do. Good players find reasons for their character to do what needs to be done: that is to say, work with the team, save the world from evil, and not kill yourself and trap your eternal soul in a cursed gem where it will use the powers of undeath to pervert the cycle of birth and death.

I mean, you can make that tragic or heroic with the right story flavour, but you're fighting an uphill battle, is what I'm saying.

If your player wants to be a lich and you want him to be a lich, the easiest way is to simply say, "Okay, you're a lich now", and have him play mechanically exactly the same as he was before, except with a vulnerability to Radiant damage and an immunity to ageing.

But seriously, this is a noob problem. Beginner DMs look for ways to let their players be liches, intermediate DMs look for ways to stop their players being liches, and expert DMs craft their campaigns so the thought of becoming a lich never enters the players' minds.
"congratulations, your a lich"

*takes sheet*

*writes - "undead lich" beside the race.*

*hands back sheet*

"there you go."
"congratulations, your a lich"

*takes sheet*

*writes - "undead lich" beside the race.*

*hands back sheet*

"there you go."

Anecdote:
I did that when a PC 'wish'ed to be a god.
Any fool can do something stupid because it's what his character would do. Good players find reasons for their character to do what needs to be done: that is to say, work with the team, save the world from evil, and not kill yourself and trap your eternal soul in a cursed gem where it will use the powers of undeath to pervert the cycle of birth and death.

I mean, you can make that tragic or heroic with the right story flavour, but you're fighting an uphill battle, is what I'm saying.

If your player wants to be a lich and you want him to be a lich, the easiest way is to simply say, "Okay, you're a lich now", and have him play mechanically exactly the same as he was before, except with a vulnerability to Radiant damage and an immunity to ageing.

But seriously, this is a noob problem. Beginner DMs look for ways to let their players be liches, intermediate DMs look for ways to stop their players being liches, and expert DMs craft their campaigns so the thought of becoming a lich never enters the players' minds.

(My emphasis)

Thanks for the insults.

I've been DMing for just under 20 years, since I played BECMI and second edition.

The reason I changed that PC, which I clearly stated in my post, was that every one of the PCs in that game are getting something 'special' and good.

For roleplaying reasons that character became a Lich after he died in combat and they tried an experimental scroll of Raise Dead (a ritual unheard of in Eberron, for the most part). Due to previous negotiations the PC had made with the spirit of Erandis d'Vol, probably the most powerful necromancer on Khorvair, the others were very surprised when this exiled Aerenal Elf wizard became undead. And not the nice 'ancestory' Aerenal deathless type undead either; there's a reason this wizard has been exiled for life from his homeland.

So, get off my back, stop calling me a noob DM (or my player a noob, for that matter). EDIT: And the OP.

The OP asked if anyone had any rules for adapting the Lich template. I told the OP what I'd done recently in my game, and gave reasons for there not being more drawbacks/why it was not just a 'congratulations, you're a lich, that is all'.
Chandrak's awesome solutions to the 5-minute workday 'problem'
97183719 wrote:
Seeing as there is a disconnect between balance (quantifiable) and fun, (subjective and personal) discussing fun in a thread about balance because you find one system more enjoyable than another is as helpful as discussing religion in a thread about architectural engineering because you think cathedrals look prettier than outhouses.
(My emphasis)

Thanks for the insults.

Hi, sorry, Trismagestus. I want to apologise if you felt insulted. I didn't mean to imply either that you were a fool or a noob personally; it's my rhetorical flourish, which can occasionally fall flat or be misaimed, which it obviously did here. You were making a reasonable point, the fact I replied shows it was an interesting enough conversation to engage my attention, and I'm sorry if my tendency to attempt to provoke an impassioned debate made you feel more insulted than incited.

My comments were addressed to the general rather than the specific. As I (and many others, including probably yourself) have said many times, whatever your group finds fun is a good solution, and good DMs and good players can find exemplary exceptions to any rule.

But I stand by my proposition that letting a player be a lich is a bad idea vastly more often than it is a good idea, and if you're in a position of needing to ask for advice for how to do it, you're almost certainly heading towards the "bad idea" end of the spectrum.

Best wishes and I look forward to arguing with you on many more threads!
if you're in a position of needing to ask for advice for how to do it, you're almost certainly heading towards the "bad idea" end of the spectrum.

For The Win.

The majority of requests for how to deviate from the core rules fall into this category.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
I think it's doable.

To make a lich, simply make the character undead. Voila! Instant lich. As for lich powers, you can swap class powers or class features for them.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Hi, sorry, Trismagestus. I want to apologise if you felt insulted. I didn't mean to imply either that you were a fool or a noob personally; it's my rhetorical flourish, which can occasionally fall flat or be misaimed, which it obviously did here. You were making a reasonable point, the fact I replied shows it was an interesting enough conversation to engage my attention, and I'm sorry if my tendency to attempt to provoke an impassioned debate made you feel more insulted than incited.

My comments were addressed to the general rather than the specific. As I (and many others, including probably yourself) have said many times, whatever your group finds fun is a good solution, and good DMs and good players can find exemplary exceptions to any rule.

But I stand by my proposition that letting a player be a lich is a bad idea vastly more often than it is a good idea, and if you're in a position of needing to ask for advice for how to do it, you're almost certainly heading towards the "bad idea" end of the spectrum.

Best wishes and I look forward to arguing with you on many more threads!

Fair enough, Greg.

I didn't really think you were meaning to imply that stuff, and only wanted to say that in general, it's a bad idea. I agree with that.

But since the OP asked, and I was doing something similar, I thought I'd share

No hard feelings, mate.
Chandrak's awesome solutions to the 5-minute workday 'problem'
97183719 wrote:
Seeing as there is a disconnect between balance (quantifiable) and fun, (subjective and personal) discussing fun in a thread about balance because you find one system more enjoyable than another is as helpful as discussing religion in a thread about architectural engineering because you think cathedrals look prettier than outhouses.
The only way that I'd allow a PC to become a lich is in the case of a baelnorn. Make 'em take the Elven High Mage epic destiny and they become liches after a huge High Magic ritual (which probably should take place only after their final mission). That's the ONLY way you can roleplay an undead PC for anything more than the temporary.

The reason for this is made clear in Open Grave: When you become any kind of undead you lose all of your compassion for life. The best you can do is to hold onto shreds of your humanity for a few months at most or bind yourself to one final mission that defines your unlife, which will probably sicken and turn evil despite whatever good initial intentions.

Well, I guess there's one way I'd allow it: make them remake their character as an NPC of their class and level, add the Lich template (maybe knock it down a few levels to make it something remotely like balanced), and make them roleplay their gradual descent into heartless evil. When they stop willingly descending, take control of the character, tell them to roll a new one, and go on an awesome killing spree.
I was about to write it myself. The Elven High Mage is basically a Baelnorn wannabe, and will become a full-fledged immortal protector at the end of his caree. Wanna be a lich? Be an arcane elfblood.
Actually Play'ng: Nothing. My old party is full of short-sighted racists and sexists (on their own admission), so I left.
Seems like a fairly simple solution to letting PCs become liches would be to create a custom ED. Here's a quick sample lich ED using borrowed bits from other EDs.

Lich
Spell Recall (from Archmage) (21th level): At the beginning of each day, choose one daily spell that you know (and have prepared today, if you prepare spells). You can use that spell two times that day, rather than only once.

Necrotic Master (modified from Hellfire Master from Prince of Hell) (24th level): Your attack powers with the necrotic keyword ignore resist necrotic. Additionally, you can choose one encounter power; if that power does not already have the necrotic keyword, it gains it. If that power deals damage of a certain type (cold, lightning, fire, and so on) then the power instead deals necrotic and that type of damage. After a short rest, you can choose a different encounter power to gain this benefit.

Spontaneous Resurrection (from Undying Warrior) (30th level): When you die, you can return to life at the start of your next turn. Doing this doesn’t require an action. You appear in a space of your choice within 5 squares of where you died and have hit points equal to your bloodied value. You are freed of any temporary effects existing at the time of your death, but permanent conditions remain. Each additional time you are slain during the same day increases the time until you can rise again.
Second Death: Return to life at the end of the encounter.
Third Death: Return to life 1 hour after the end of the encounter.
Fourth Death: Return to life 12 hours after the end of the encounter.
Fifth Death or More: Return to life 24 hours after the end of the encounter.
If you don’t use this ability, you can still be raised from the dead normally.

Shape Magic
Daily
Standard Action Personal
Effect: You regain one arcane power you have already used.
I really don't see why this cannot be a custom Paragon Path, or even Epic Destiny.
I actually produced a Lich Paragon path a while back, that can be seen in the Fan-Made class compendium, it's balanced and is perhaps worth a look.
Considering the level requirement of the ritual, I'd say paragon path would be the best route to take.
IMHO, I see no problem with players transforming themselves into NPC characters (such as a Lich, Vampire, Werewolf, or other monstrous creature) so long as the player clearly understands that their character is no longer a PC, but has in fact become a player-controlled NPC, and will only remain under the player's control for an indefinate duration of the DMs choosing.

As long as your player's are OK with knowing that they can (and will) be asked to relinquish control of their character at a time of their DMs choosing, I fail to see the problem.....

IMO however, the lich transformation itself makes a perfect cap-stone to a pre-epic "destiny quest", and upon completion of which, I would only allow the character some "gloat" time (again 2-3 sessions feels appropriate) before asking the character to retire to pursue his "studies".

IMO, I would even go so far as to state that the quest of attaining lichhood is a worthy (and perhaps appropriate) "retirement" quest for their character, and that in becoming a lich, they have just reached the cap-stone of said quest.

In many ways, the "toys" given to the lich template (and other such monsters) are comparable to the abilities given to a 30th level character, and like the 30th level character, the player should be allowed to enjoy their "cap-stone" abilities for at least a short period of time (3-6 sessions seems appropriate) before the character is retired.

Sure, the abilities of a lich arent exactly "epic" in power, but they certainly carry the feeling of having epic power, and as such - attaining this status carries a similar presence as attaining 30th level and getting your final ED powers.

Certain templates even lend themselves naturally to the archetypal "Cure Affliction" quest, the conclusion of which may result in the character regaining PC status (and PC-level power), or failing in their quest and becoming an NPC doomed to suffer their affliction until the end of their days.

There are so many ways in which opening up these "monster" options to (mature) players can enhance (rather than detract) the way in which a campaign unfolds....

All of this however, is dependant upon player maturity, as immature players could easily use such transformation options as an excuse to cause irrepairable damage and/or derail the campaign completely.
I think it's doable.

To make a lich, simply make the character undead. Voila! Instant lich. As for lich powers, you can swap class powers or class features for them.

So then you would be multiclassing into Lich. This could almost work...almost.
I don't really see a problem with the concept per-se either. I think the real hitch is the way the lich and the ritual in the MM are presented as being low paragon tier material. That's fine for a monster, but it does seem to me that in general for a PC it should certainly be an epic destiny type of thing.

It would make an interesting story arc for a campaign. The character has to gain the power and knowledge required to attain their goal. Just ramp up the whole lich concept:

First you have to find the knowledge required to attain lichhood. That would include the lich making ritual and possibly other things.

Secondly you would have to garner the favor of some immortal being. The MM lich lore entry implies that Orcus governs this and presumably would not allow lichhood for anyone that doesn't take him for a patron.

Thirdly you would have to acquire the material necessary to perform the ritual, plus possibly other things like a secure lair, etc.

Remember too that monster entries are only basic information. I haven't read Open Grave yet, so I don't know if there is more material there on the subject, but liches may well have certain restrictions on how they can operate or other problems that simply aren't germane to a MM entry.

And as other posters have suggested, once you go down the path towards something like becoming a lich, you are really placing your character in the hands of the DM. Much like a PC reaching 30th level and completing an ED, at that point the character is virtually retired. The DM can leave the character mostly in the hands of the player, but unlike normal PCs the DM should have total control over what the character is allowed to do and how they operate. In effect the character is no longer a (anti?) hero. It is an NPC that the player can be allowed to enjoy some restricted ownership over.

It is a great way to buy players into a campaign setting in a big way. The setting I run is like that. It has all sorts of NPCs that were once PCs or are what is left of PCs after they went beyond mortality. Players love it. Once in a while I'll let them do stuff like mess with the whole campaign environment too. The next generation of PCs can set out to destroy the lich!
That is not dead which may eternal lie
Incidentilly, I actually made a fairly balanced Lich PP a few months back....

Necrotic Master (11th): This ability functions as the Lich ability of the same name (see Dungeon Masters Guide p179).

Necrotic Resistance (11th): You gain Darkvision and the Undead Keyword. In addition, you gain Resist 5 +1/2 level Necrotic, Poison, and Disease.

Spell Master (11th): Once per encounter (as a Minor action) you can regain the use of an expended encounter attack power you know.

Necrotic Aura (12th): This power functions as the Lich ability as the same name (see DMG p179), and can be used At-Will.

Undead Immunity (16th): You gain immunity to Poison and Disease (replacing your previous resistance to damage of this type).

Daily (20th): ???
Looks like this has been made canon...

On Friday there will be an Epic Destiny preview from Arcane Power called the Archlich. Whether this means a Baelnorn that isn't necessarily Elven, but still not evil, or something else, we'll see.

But it means that now Wizards are letting you play Liches (albeit, Epic ones) in the official rules.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

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