The Minotaur (Take Two) (PEACH) (because the current Minotaur is too badly designed)

174 posts / 0 new
Last post

This thread has officially been updated to take the PHB3 version of the Minotaur into account.


THE MINOTAUR

minotaur_qjpreviewth.jpg


I don't like 4E's Minotaur PC race. It's very badly designed. So, I decided I would create my own. Admittedly, it's not a massive change, no, but I believe that what it accomplishes is very important.

Reasons why I believe that the current Minotaur is badly designed, in case you care...

Both the Minotaur in the back of the MM and the Minotaur in Dragon 369 are badly designed, and this upsets me. The reason they are badly designed is that they completely contradict one of 4E's basic PC race design philosophies, a design philosophy I am in complete agreement with:
Every race should be able to perform reasonably well as a member of any class.
The Minotaurs, as they currently are, do not do that. They are pigeon-holed into selecting weapon-using, melee classes. Let's take a look at their racial features, so I can show you what I mean:

Oversized: Yes, I realize the official PC version does not have this feature, but I want to bring it up anyways. The reason this feature is poor design is not because it's overpowered, or at least that's not the only reason. More relevant to my concern is that it pigeon-holes Minotaurs into selecting a weapon-using class or miss out on a major benefit of their race.
Ferocity: Melee basic attack pigeon-holes the Minotaur into selecting a primarily melee class in order to gain any use out of the ability. It also, of course, forces the Minotaur to select a class that actually uses weapons, instead of maybe one that uses implements.
Heedless Charge: Again, we're channeling the Minotaur into a class that wants to rush into melee and use a melee basic attack, which requires a weapon.
Goring Charge: Ah yes, the Minotaur racial power is perhaps the worst offender of all. Granted, it doesn't assume the minotaur will be using a weapon, but it does do two other terrible things. The first is assuming the Minotaur is a member of a class that wants to be in melee, like so many of the other Minotaur racial features. The second is that, unlike most other racial powers, it takes a standard action, meaning that the power assumes that charging into melee is going to be something that the Minotaur's class is going to want to do as part of fulfilling its party role.

Now, if it were just one of these problems, I might be able to overlook it, but it looks as though the Minotaur doesn't have a single racial feature that it can benefit from unless it's a weapon-using melee defender or striker. Let's just take a look at a Minotaur Warlock; with a CON bonus, the Minotaur should be able to make a perfectly fine Infernal Pact Warlock, no? And it's also a perfectly in-flavor concept, isn't it? But it doesn't work, because that's the only thing it's gotten from its race. It's ranged, arcane, implement-using class, so it'll never get the opportunity to use any of its racial features, not that it would want to. And of course we have problems with Wizards too, and Druids and Invokers and Shamans and Sorcerers. The Minotaur quite simply cannot function reasonably well as members of these classes, and that is contrary to the 4E PC race design philosophy. Don't get me wrong, I think the abilities that the Minotaur currently has are very flavorful and fit perfectly, but they need to be modified as not to pigeon-hole the race into a particular classes and roles.

With their update in the PHB3, Minotaurs have gained the Vitality racial feature, which is fine, and additional ability score options for Goring Charge, which is an improvement to the power but not enough of an improvement to totally counter my above concerns. The power is still a standard action and still won't see any use outside of melee classes.


THE MINOTAUR

RACIAL TRAITS
Average Height:
7' 1" - 7' 5"
Average Weight: 320 - 350 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength; +2 Constitution or +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 Squares
Vision: Normal

Languages: Common, choice of one other
Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Perception
Ferocity: When you fall unconscious as a result of having been dropped to 0 hit points or fewer, you can use an at-will attack power as an immediate interrupt before falling unconscious.*
Heedless Passage: You gain a +2 racial bonus to AC against opportunity attacks that you provoke when you move.
Natural Cunning: If you selected to gain a +2 racial bonus to Constitution, you gain a +1 racial bonus to your Reflex defense.
Vitality: If you selected to gain a +2 racial bonus to Wisdom, you gain one additional healing surge.
Gore: You can use Gore as an encounter power.

GORE (Minotaur Racial Power)
Encounter
Minor Action, Melee
1
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Your highest ability modifier +5 vs. AC
11th Level: Your highest ability modifier +8 vs. AC
21st Level: Your highest ability modifier +11 vs. AC
Hit: 1D6 + your highest ability modifier damage.
11th Level: 2D6 + your highest ability modifier damage.
21st Level: 4D6 + your highest ability modifier damage.
Special: This power counts as a melee basic attack. When a power allows you to make a melee basic attack, you can use this power. If you use this power in place of a basic melee attack and hit, you also knock the target prone.

My design decisions, in case you care...

The first thing I wanted to do was to somehow salvage Goring Charge. I think that by changing it to a Minor action and removing the charging requirement in favor of allowing it to be used as a melee basic attack, its original use and flavor can be preserved while also broadening its use to allow non-melee characters to benefit from it.

I also thought Ferocity was an awesome and flavorful ability, and allowing it to use any at-will attack power was my first instinct. It was afterward when I was checking out what racial feats would need modification that I noticed this was actually a Paragon feat by the name of Brutal Ferocity (renamed Vicious Ferocity for the PHB3). It really makes me wonder why that wasn't just the original use of the ability.

Also while checking out racial feats, I realized that both Natural Cunning and Beast Within were useful to any class at all, very flavorful, and they seemed they would round out the base race nicely, and so that's why they were included into the base racial stat block.

Finally, I realized that, unlike other races who have two ability score bonuses that affect the same defense, Minotaurs do no have a bonus to a second defense. I couldn't decide between Reflex and Will, but I decided that a Reflex defense bonus seems pretty natural attached to Natural Cunning. I usually think of this as an important balancing consistency across the races, and I can't imagine why a racial defense bonus was left out in the official version.

After the PHB3 came out, I decided to go back and remove Beast Within and stick with something a bit closer to Heedless Charge to avoid any confusion and to keep changes to the official Minotaur as minor as possible. The addition of variable ability score bonuses tripped me up for a bit, but I decided that the most logical thing to do would be to grant the Reflex boost only to STR/CON Minotaurs and change Vitality to be exclusive to STR/WIS Minotaurs, thus giving each Minotaur a taste of the other's world. Honestly, the STR/CON Minotaur doesn't need that bonus healing surge anyways, so I think that giving it up for the Reflex bonus that it does need is more than a fair trade.

Thus, this old note can now be completely disregarded:
POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVES

So when I first made this fix, I hadn't considered being able to salvage Heedless Charge, but now I think I'm going to steal a very simple idea presented in another thread. What of...
Heedless: You gain a +2 racial bonus to AC against opportunity attacks you provoke when you move.
This would remove the exclusively melee weapon focus of the ability and make it more useful to everybody, kind of like a less powerful version of the Halfling Nimble Reaction, while still keeping its old utility intact. If one were to use this, I would of course suggest Beast Within be removed. The two abilities sound similarly powerful to me, but I'm not 100% on it yet...

Natural Cunning has also been cut down to the absolute basics to avoid any confusion and to keep changes to the official Minotaur as minor as possible.


Ferocity*

* Many have suggested that allowing Ferocity to use any At-Will power is excessive and instead suggest that it be allowed to use any basic attack, melee or ranged. I'm on the fence about this one due to reasons concerning whether or not that pigeon-holes implement-using classes too much into selecting specific at-will powers. However for now, if you plan on using this race at all, I suggest speaking to your DM about this to see how he feels.



minotaurmage.jpg?t=1262229597




MINOTAUR RACIAL FEATS
The following racial feats are just minor modifications to the racial feats in the PHB3, and I take no credit for coming up with the idea for any of them. Feats that did not require alteration are not included here. This section used to list some feats in Dragon 369, but they have been removed as obsolete for the most part.

HEROIC TIER FEATS

Brutal Ferocity [Minotaur]
Prerequisite:
Minotaur, Ferocity racial feature
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to the attack rolls and damage rolls of the at-will attack granted by your Ferocity.

Goring Shove [Minotaur]
Prerequisites:
Minotaur, Strength 15, Gore racial power
Benefit: Whenever you hit a target with your Gore, you can also push that target 1 square.

PARAGON TIER FEATS

Bloodborn Recovery [Minotaur]
Prerequisites:
11th level, Minotaur, Ferocity racial feature
Benefit: When you score a critical hit with the at-will attack granted by your Ferocity, you can spend a healing surge.

Bloody Gore [Minotaur]
Prerequisites:
11th level, Minotaur, Gore racial power
Benefit: The first time you are bloodied during an encounter, you regain the use of your Gore.

Vicious Ferocity [Minotaur]
Prerequisites:
11th level, Minotaur, Ferocity racial feature
Benefit: Whenever you would make the at-will attack granted by your Ferocity, you can substitute any encounter attack you know for the at-will attack.


minotaurdruid.jpg?t=1262229597




EDITS:
Concerns have been brought about about being able to knock a target prone as a minor action and that this would be comparable to epic level powers, so Gore has been changed not to allow this. However, knocking prone with the power is still doable if it replaces a melee basic attack, keeping all of the original charge effects and opportunity attack effects completely intact.

Concerns have also been brought up about Ferocity and that allowing any at-will attack power may be excessive while simply allowing any basic attack, melee or ranged, may be enough of a push in the right direction. I'm on the fence about this, and so a note has been added to Ferocity above.

This thread has officially been updated to take the PHB3 version of the Minotaur into account. Many new notes and considerations have been added and many alterations have been made.

Gore has been updated to allow the use of the character's highest ability modifier instead of forcing the use of Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity. This change falls in line with precedent set by recent Dragon Magazine articles and with the intent of this thread to allow for greater Minotaur character versatility.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Bloody awesome. Many kudos. Or is it much kudos? Anyway, if any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version.
That's actually an awesome piece of work there! I really like it too. If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!
58292718 wrote:
I love Horseshoecrabfolk. What I love most about them is that they seem to be the one thing that we all can agree on.
See for yourself, click here!
I like most of what you've done with the minotaur although I don't necessarily agree that the old MM minotaur was that terrible. I really like the addition of the final blow attack that a lot of MM monsters have, although I'm not sure if an attack that can only be used when you are nearly dead is a good thing either. Maybe make it something that happens when you're bloodied? I like the addition of the maze-flavor racial trait as well as a throwback to the minotaur of the labyrinth.

The biggest issue I think you need to look at is the balance of gore. The goring charge from the dragon magazine/MM is balanced because its a standard action. Yours is a minor action but comes with all of the same buffing feats, damage, etc as goring charge did. You can now use this ability without needing the room to charge and get a very strong attack as a minor action and then continue to use it whenever you can use an OA for the rest of the encounter with the correct feat.

I completely agree that oversized was not thought through correctly. Having a medium-sized character with large-sized weapons is just not going to work. I also find it ridiculous that they have not added small-sized weapons. Gnomes cant make a short staff ?
Gore needs to be a Standard action, not a Minor one.

I'd also nix the "+2 to checks to avoid becoming lost" because it's too vague and corner case.
I really like the addition of the final blow attack that a lot of MM monsters have, although I'm not sure if an attack that can only be used when you are nearly dead is a good thing either. Maybe make it something that happens when you're bloodied?

Actually, Ferocity was already part of both the MM and Dragon versions of the Minotaur. The only thing I changed was allow the ability to utilize any at-will attack power instead of just a melee basic attack. I did consider making Ferocity usable when you first become bloodied in an encounter, but I think we can all agree that would gain much more total use than having it only usable when falling to or below 0 HP, and comparing this Minotaur to the Dragonborn, I was concerned that would be overpowered. :embarrass

The biggest issue I think you need to look at is the balance of gore. The goring charge from the dragon magazine/MM is balanced because its a standard action. Yours is a minor action but comes with all of the same buffing feats, damage, etc as goring charge did.

Yes, I realize that making Gore a Minor action comes with some balance implications, but I became okay with it being a Minor action when I started comparing the Minotaur to the Dragonborn for a balance comparison. Just check out the Dragonborn's Dragon Breath vs the Minotaur's Gore. Both do the same damage and require a minor action. The difference is that Dragon Breath is a blast 3 and can therefore target many opponents, while Gore gets to knock prone a single target and be used as a melee basic attack. Gore certainly has more versatility is use, yes, but I very much doubt it can be considered more powerful than Dragon Breath, and of course, Dragonborn get racial feats to buff their Dragon Breath too. :D

You can now use this ability without needing the room to charge and get a very strong attack as a minor action and then continue to use it whenever you can use an OA for the rest of the encounter with the correct feat.

When using that feat, you get the exact same mechanical result with my revamped Minotaur as you did with the old. If there's a problem with the way it works, then there's a problem with the way it used to work too. I'm open to that possibility, of course, but I worked on this under the assumption that the Minotaur and its racial feats were balanced before, however badly designed they may have been.

Gore needs to be a Standard action, not a Minor one.

I understand where you're coming from with this, but it really needs to be a Minor action for various reasons. The first I mentioned alongside my problems with the original Goring Charge, the standard action racial power makes too many assumptions about what the Minotaur wants to do on his turn when it comes to fulfilling its party role. Making it a Minor action adds the versatility to be used by anybody and makes it perfectly comparable to the Dragonborn's Dragon Breath racial power. It's worth noting that if you want to use Gore the way that you used to use Goring Charge, that's still completely 100% possible, as I allow Gore to be used in place of a melee basic attack, such as at the end of a charge. :P

I'd also nix the "+2 to checks to avoid becoming lost" because it's too vague and corner case.

I agree that it's not going to come up every campaign, but I added it because I thought it was a very flavorful feature that wouldn't impact balance too much. If you'd prefer it removed, you're more than welcome to remove it for your own use, and I can certainly understand why you would. ;)

Thanks for the feedback, everybody! Keep it coming!

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
The dragonborn's breath weapon is incredibly unbalanced in my opinion as well so backing up gore with that doesn't really fix the problem. Think of a ranger at level 1. Twin strike + hunter's quarry + offhand strike + gore. Thats essentially 5 attacks dealing quite a bit of damage and gaining a lot of +'s if you pick the proper feat and build your character properly. On top of that it knocks my enemy prone. Replace gore with dragonbreath and you still have a fairly broken combat round.

Whats different about dragonbreath and your gore is that dragonbreath definitely cannot be used as an OA and cannot be used infinitely as an OA. Goring charge also required a charge (aka 2 squares in the direction you are attacking) whereas gore does not.

Its your race, do with what you want, I'm just saying if I was going to use this race I would not allow gore and would probably either make it a standard action again or not allow the gore-buffing feats or force the player to make a charge to use it.
The dragonborn's breath weapon is incredibly unbalanced in my opinion as well so backing up gore with that doesn't really fix the problem.

If you think that, then I can't convince you of a thing, because I balanced this race by comparison, and the Dragonborn is what I compared it to. The similarities between the two made it easiest: same size, same speed, same vision, +1 bonus to attack while bloodied, and a minor action damaging racial power.

Whats different about dragonbreath and your gore is that dragonbreath definitely cannot be used as an OA and cannot be used infinitely as an OA.

Goring Charge on the original Minotaur could also be used indefinitely as an OA with the exact same feat. The end result of taking that feat is the same for both versions, so this is not something unique to my version. If you had a problem with the way it used to work with the original Minotaur, that's fine, but remember that I balance by comparison, and by comparison, there's been zero change to the OA issue.

Goring charge also required a charge (aka 2 squares in the direction you are attacking) whereas gore does not.

Yes, that was the entire point of the change. ;)

Its your race, do with what you want

No, I think it's important to hear your feedback, but I want to make sure I understand your criticisms and that you understand why I disagree with them. If you really feel that the Dragonborn's Dragon Breath is broken, I'll ask around about it on the Char Op board and figure out some adjustment if it becomes clear that one is necessary.

I'm just saying if I was going to use this race I would not allow gore and would probably either make it a standard action again or not allow the gore-buffing feats or force the player to make a charge to use it.

The problem with this would be that you would be taking the race right back towards that poor design philosophy. Making it a charge means that you would be greatly discouraging the Minotaur from selecting anything but melee classes, and making it a standard action means that you'd be assuming that charging into the melee is something the Minotaur would want to do in order to fulfill its party role.

There must be a better solution than that. How about this; if you think Gore is currently overpowered, what if I change the text to read like so...

GORE (Minotaur Racial Power)
Encounter
Minor Action, Melee
1
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Strength +4 vs. AC or Constitution +4 vs. AC or Dexterity +4 vs. AC
Increase to +6 at 11th level and +8 at 21st level.
Hit: 1D6+ Strength modifier damage.
Increase to 2D6+ Strength modifier at 11th level and 3D6+ Strength modifier at 21st level.
Special: At 1st level, you determine whether you use Strength or Constitution or Dexterity to attack with this power. Once you make that choice, you can't change it later.
This power counts as a melee basic attack. When a power allows you to make a melee basic attack, you can use this power. If you use this power in place of the basic melee attack at the end of a charge and hit, you also knock the target prone.

Undoubtedly weaker than Dragon Breath, because now it does the same damage but to only one target and without any added extra effect (prone). At the same time, though, if you still want that added effect to keep the power useful, the power must be used as part of the standard action charge. This also means that the power will never cause an enemy to become prone when used to make an OA. What do you think?

If you have any other ideas, please feel free to share them, but keep in mind that we're trying to make sure this power is still at least somewhat useful to all classes, not just weapon-using melee classes.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Alternatively, the end of the Special line could be worded as follows:

This power counts as a melee basic attack. When a power allows you to make a melee basic attack, you can use this power. If you use this power in place of a basic melee attack and hit, you also knock the target prone.

Of course, this would still allow the power to knock prone on an OA as well as during a charge. It does, however prevent it from knocking an enemy prone as a minor action on your own turn.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
"Great kid, now don't get cocky!"

Nah, I tease. Looking very well-to-do so far. I'm still a bigger fan of the original Minotaur, but this one has It's own special flair.
I really like this.

One other thing to remember about how NOT powerful Gore/Goring Charge is, is that without making your entire BUILD around charging (doable, slightly, although Vangaurd weapons won't help Goring Charge!), you simply can't rack up a lot of the damage bonuses. No enchantment bonus, no critical bonus, no changing it to cold damage for lasting frost/wintertouched. No bloodclaw/reckless. (Well, reckless might work RAW for now, but I really don't expect that to survive the next updates, sooner or later they will clarify that only works on attacks made with the reckless weapon.)

Iron Armbands DO work, and Goring Charge can use a Horned Helm (although really, that's just silly... you already have horns... well, maybe the flavor here is that the helmet actually fits over your horns, shielding them ), as well as powerful charge, etc. But do you really want to take up your head slot just to augment a weak once per encounter ability? If you're not a melee focused character (infernalock), the iron armbands aren't priority, but maybe having a melee power available in case you need one isn't bad.

Dragonbreath is fine as-is, it's still useful for killing minions at higher levels. But goring charge? Really? Unless I really think knocking prone is really important, I'm probably better off with a melee basic...

Let's look at Level 18 *highly unoptimized* TWF ranger. We'll use a bastard sword build, and for simplicity, we'll ignore whatever proprities it has other than being +4/+4d6 on critical. We started with an 18 in STR after racials and increased it at every opportunity. We took Weapon Focus and Weapon Expertise, but no feats to specifically improve charging. We're wearing Iron Armbands (Paragon) but no other relevant magic items.

Charge w/BS to-hit: +9 (level) +2 (expertise) +3 (proficiency) +4 (enhancement) +6 (Str) +1 charge = +25
Charge w/Goring Charge to-hit: +9 (level) + 6 (specified in power) + 6 (Str) +1 charge = +22

Non-crit damage w/BS: 1d10 (base) + 6 (str) + 4 (enhancement) + 4 (iron armbands) = 19.5 average, 24 max
Non-crit damage w/GC: 2d6 (base) + 6 (str) + 4 (iron armbands) = 17 average, 22 max

Crit damage w/BS: 10 (max base) + 14 (other mods) + 4d6 = 38 avg
Crit damage w/GC: 12 (max base) + 10 (other mods) = 22 always

Hm, which of these seems like the better option? Or even a scimitar build, you'll have 1 less to-hit from a +2 weapon and deal 1 less average / 2 less max on a non-crit, which starts to pull you in fairly close in damage, except of course you do damage on a miss thanks to scimitar build, and your crit damage is much much higher thanks to scimitars being high crit.

So, as-written, as a minor action, it seems fine.
WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice.

This version is much more in line with 4e's design philosophies than both the MM version and the dragon magazine version.

Well done!
Ferocity: If you are reduced to 0 or fewer Hit Points, you can use an at-will attack power as a free action before falling unconscious.

what if your at will power heals you? immortality?
Qube's block builder: if you want to create blocks for powers, items and monsters for this forum, but don't know html
Signature in a box
For years, I've lived a double life. In the day, I do my job - I ride the bus, roll up my sleeves with the hoi-polloi. But at night, I live a life of exhilaration, of missed heartbeats and adrenalin. And, if the truth be known a life of dubious virtue. I won't deny it - I've been engaged in violence, even indulged in it. I've maimed and killed adversaries, and not merely in self-defence. I've exhibited disregard for life, limb and property, and savoured every moment. You may not think it, to look of me but I have commanded armies, and conquered worlds. And though in achieving these things I've set morality aside, I have no regrets. For though I've led a double life, at least I can say - I've lived.

3.jpg
D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - Stone Gaint

Scipio: And Chihuahuas have definitely improved in the "attacking ankles, yapping, and being generally annoying" environment. Me: OK, am I the only who sees an analogy between forum trolls & Chihuahuas?
Some of my work:
XDMC 19 (silver): A full fledged assassins guild (with stats, skill challenges, ...)link XDMC 14 (Bronze): a one shot campaign for beginning DMs/players. link XDMC 16: Paragon path: the Epitome: being better then all then any one else. link (note: this is balanced) XDMC 25: The Gelatinous Cube mount Guide To Disreality: a collection of houserules - Introduction & table of content
My ego in a box
who am I kidding? my ego would never fit in a box
Are there any at-will attack powers that also heal? I imagine they would be slightly overpowered even without this. THP don't count towards keeping you alive, so I think it's fine as long as such an ability doesn't exist.
There are At-Wills that give Temp HP, but none that heal. And Temp HP won't save you/restore you if you hit zero HP.
what if your at will power heals you? immortality?

I don't think there are any such powers, but if there every is, that's a problem that we would face with the original Minotaur as well. There was, after all, a Minotaur racial feat before that allowed them to do then what I now allow them to do for free.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I've been playing a MM-based minotaur variant for a while now, and this gets my strong approval. I mourn the loss of the Oversized trait, but my character's Large Executioner's Axe (2d6 brutal 2) has been proving why Oversized is problematic, so I understand. And this does feel much more flavorful and minotaur-esque than the standard WotC minotaur options. I'd say that I'd recommend it to my DM, but my character's about to undergo a sort of apotheosis into an "enlightened minotaur" of some sort, so we're going to be modifying the race significantly anyway.

Actually, I'd like to get thoughts on that. It's being designed specifically for my character, so the racial power is specific to him (he's going to be a druid now, changed from the barbarian playtest). He had the orc racial Warrior's Surge power before, instead of Goring Charge - DM houseruled it because he figured that I'd never use Goring Charge as a barbarian.

Stats: +2 Con, +2 Wis
Skills: +2 Nature, +2 Perception (same)
Oversized: Keeping it because it was there before, though I may ask him to change it to Beast Within (appropriate enough for a druid).
Ferocity: Same as normal.

PRIMAL FEROCITY
Encounter * Beast Form, Implement
Standard Action * Melee
touch
Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d8 + Wisdom modifier damage, and you can spend a healing surge. Increase the damage to 2d8 + Wisdom modifier at 21st level.

Does this seem reasonable as a modification? I'm leaving out Natural Cunning, though it's a great idea in general, for two reasons. First, my character isn't a typical minotaur and the maze thing doesn't apply; second, with the new Con/Wis stat bonuses, his bonuses are in two different NAD groups and the Reflex boost would be inappropriate. Thoughts and criticism are appreciated.
Oversized: Keeping it because it was there before, though I may ask him to change it to Beast Within (appropriate enough for a druid).

If you're a Druid, Oversized will be largely useless to you (unless you go with the staff implement, of course, I suppose). That's why the ability was removed in my version to begin with. Beast Within, on the other hand, will still be useful to you as a Druid. I do highly recommend you request that the DM make this or some other appropriate change.

Ferocity: Same as normal.

Again, if it's the same as normal, then you can only make a melee basic attack with it, not very useful at all for a Druid and the reason why it was removed. Unless, of course, you'll be going with the staff implement and plan somehow not to have a terrible melee basic attack...

PRIMAL FEROCITY
Encounter * Beast Form, Implement
Standard Action * Melee
touch
Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d8 + Wisdom modifier damage, and you can spend a healing surge. Increase the damage to 2d8 + Wisdom modifier at 21st level.

Normally I would suggest that a racial power with an accessory keyword is very bad design, but since this is a custom template for a single character, I don't think it could hurt. Same with the Beast Form keyword, which is very esoteric and completely useless to non-Druids.

I'm leaving out Natural Cunning, though it's a great idea in general, for two reasons. First, my character isn't a typical minotaur and the maze thing doesn't apply; second, with the new Con/Wis stat bonuses, his bonuses are in two different NAD groups and the Reflex boost would be inappropriate.

That seems reasonable, yes.

In general, not bad for a custom template you only ever plan to apply to a single specific character, no.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Well done sir
Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes.
http://guild.medialoungeca.com/index.php?action=forum The Guild I'm apart of. We're in WOW, STO, Rift and soon Star Wars feel free to register and hang out. http://sparkster11.deviantart.com/ my deviantart Wheelman of the House of Trolls, "I love it when you watch" Carrier of Section 2, 3 and 6 cargo. Resident Driver Stud God of Transportation and Lust.
I like the remake overall, but I can't help but question why the Minotaur gets +1 to Reflex. It seems to me that a meaty man-bull thing wouldn't be able to dodge so effectively. But I like what you've done very much so. Enought that I'll probably houserule this in for a player in my RP group doing a Minotaur Barbarian.
Well it came down to reflex or will and will has already been done by all the other str/con races. Besides animals tend to have good reflexes even big musclebound bulls.
I can't help but question why the Minotaur gets +1 to Reflex.

Well, like Ferol said, it came down between Reflex and Will, and I figured that the whole spacial awareness thing fit better with Reflex than Will, especially seeing as we now not only add DEX to AC and Reflex but INT as well. That and again going along with that Ferol said, +1 Will is pretty standard and cliche for like every other STR/CON or DEX/INT pairing out there. :P
That being said, if you think Will would be more appropriate, I can certainly see where you're coming from with that, so feel more than welcome to modify to suit your needs. Either way still fixes the problem with the old Minotaur, so either way is still great.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I see your argument, but I think you tried to hammer round pegs into square holes to make your Minotaur similar to the others.

Ferocity: Use an at-will power when reduced to 0 hp? That doesn't really make sense at all thinking about it. I think a melee basic attack is the only thing that makes sense there. You should just replace it outright if you don't like that. If you want it to fit everyone, change it to something that involves healing. When reduced to zero hit-points, the Minotaur can use a healing surge and add their Constitution modifier to the hit points gained.

Gore works. Though I think you made it wordy. Does every successful attack with it knock the target prone? I also think it should be a standard action, not minor. It's still a melee based racial power which seems to counter your original argument, but no whatever.
I see your argument, but I think you tried to hammer round pegs into square holes to make your Minotaur similar to the others.

Part of the purpose of trying to make as little of this up myself as possible and instead borrow and shuffle around the original mechanics was that a lot of people dislike using homebrew. The purpose of keeping it as close to the originals as I could while still making the changes that needed to be made was to both make it more accessible to people who normally wouldn't be open to home brews and to demonstrate how easy it really would have been to design a Minotaur that better adheres to the 4E PC race design philosophies.

Ferocity: Use an at-will power when reduced to 0 hp? That doesn't really make sense at all thinking about it. I think a melee basic attack is the only thing that makes sense there.

I'm not sure I see where you're going with this at all. What exactly about it doesn't make sense to you?
Also, it's worth noting that there used to be a Paragon tier feat (Brutal Ferocity) to allow Minotaurs to use an at-will attack power instead of a melee basic attack anyways, so I didn't completely make that up myself. I just gave it to the default race instead of making it take a feat due to FSBNNR (Feats Should Be Nice, Not Required).
Or did you also have a problem with that feat and the old Minotaur?

You should just replace it outright if you don't like that.

But I do like it. It's a very flavorful concept and ability. ;)

Gore works. Though I think you made it wordy. Does every successful attack with it knock the target prone?

No, it says:
"If you use this power in place of a basic melee attack and hit, you also knock the target prone."
So it knocks prone if you use it after a charge, for an opportunity attack, and so on, or even if you feel like just flat out spending a standard action to make a melee basic attack and use this racial power instead.

I also think it should be a standard action, not minor.

The problem remains that it being a standard action heavily channels the Minotaur into a melee role and assumes that this racial power is the kind of thing the Minotaur will want to do in order to fulfill its party role and class role.

It's still a melee based racial power which seems to counter your original argument, but no whatever.

Yes, it is still a melee based power, but as a minor action, non-melee characters can still make use of it because it won't interfere with their standard action they should be using to fulfill their class role and party role. After all, ranged characters do sometimes find themselves in melee situations temporarily. Now, I'm not suggesting that this racial power is just as good for ranged character as it is for melee characters, just that now it's actually usable by ranged characters and does serve some purpose as opposed to the old Goring Charge.

Hope I was able to address your concerns.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Also, it's worth noting that there used to be a Paragon tier feat (Brutal Ferocity) to allow Minotaurs to use an at-will attack power instead of a melee basic attack anyways, so I didn't completely make that up myself.

You realize of course that Paragon tier is 11 to 20. Your example proves that it shouldn't be there because it is too powerful for first level. Using that logic, anything in the Paragon tier should be able to be taken by classes in the Heroic tier.

Or did you also have a problem with that feat and the old Minotaur?

Logical fallacies don't make you get to do whatever you want.

No, it says:
"If you use this power in place of a basic melee attack and hit, you also knock the target prone."
So it knocks prone if you use it after a charge, for an opportunity attack, and so on, or even if you feel like just flat out spending a standard action to make a melee basic attack and use this racial power instead.

In other words, it knocks the opponent prone every time it is used. That not only proves it is wordy but shows you are obfuscating the meaning of what you wrote.

Hope I was able to address your concerns.

Not particularly.
You realize of course that Paragon tier is 11 to 20. Your example proves that it shouldn't be there because it is too powerful for first level. Using that logic, anything in the Paragon tier should be able to be taken by classes in the Heroic tier.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Just because something is a Paragon tier feat doesn't mean it's too powerful for a character for first level, just that it's too powerful for a heroic tier feat. I in no way deny that this version of Ferocity is superior to the old version of Ferocity.
I do, however, believe that this is the most efficient way to modify Ferocity for accessibility purposes, and I really can't think of any other such way to modify ferocity without also making it more powerful.
If you really think it's overpowered, I can ask around the CharOp board about it and see what they think. I did that before when the concern was brought up about comparing Gore to Dragon Breath, and I did as a result power-down Gore exactly so that it wouldn't be able to knock prone as a minor action.
If it does turn out that it's more powerful than I think it is, how about I limit Ferocity to once per encounter?

Logical fallacies don't make you get to do whatever you want.

Which logical fallacies are you referring to exactly?

In other words, it knocks the opponent prone every time it is used.

Untrue. Used straight-up as a minor action, it does not knock the target prone. Only when used to replace a melee basic attack does it knock the target prone. I'm really not sure how I could be more clear.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I don't think that's necessarily true. Just because something is a Paragon tier feat doesn't mean it's too powerful for a character for first level, just that it's too powerful for a heroic tier feat.

You realize of course that those two things are mutually exclusive. You can't be too powerful for a heroic tier feat but not too powerful for a level 1 character (ie, HEROIC TIER).

I do, however, believe that this is the most efficient way to modify Ferocity for accessibility purposes, and I really can't think of any other such way to modify ferocity without also making it more powerful.

You did make it more powerful - Paragon tier powerful. And this goes back to what I said in my first reply: You should just replace it outright if you don't like it.

If you really think it's overpowered, I can ask around the CharOp board about it and see what they think.

Unless something has significantly changed since 3.5, CharOp is all about making things absurdly and unjustly powerful. And, the fact you are giving a PARAGON TIER FEAT BONUS to a HEROIC TIER character for FREE, should give you a hint to the power level difference.

Untrue. Used straight-up as a minor action, it does not knock the target prone. Only when used to replace a melee basic attack does it knock the target prone. I'm really not sure how I could be more clear.

Oh, I'm sorry. I will be more specific - it knocks Prone as a standard action regardless of how it is used, as opposed to only on a Charge.


Round peg, square hole. If you want to be different and not try to make the Minotaur with practically the same abilities but hammered to make it less melee focused, Ferocity should be stripped of its melee/attack parallelism and Gore should be removed and replaced with something else.
It all looks fine to me.

The change to ferocity was a good change. It allows minotaurs who don't happen to have a strong basic attack to still use their racial feature. Using a mechanic that already existed (a paragon feat in this instance) to fix said racial feature was a simple and effective way to do it. Although being able to use any at-will power might be a bit too strong. Letting minotaurs use any basic attack might be enough of a fix, although this doesn't help everyone (laser clerics for example).

The changes to Gore are excellent. They make Gore useable by other builds other than strictly strength based ones and address the standard action problem.

The problem is that minotaurs, as designed, break way too many of the design rules.
You can't be too powerful for a heroic tier feat but not too powerful for a level 1 character (ie, HEROIC TIER).

I beg to differ, and here are the most obvious examples:
Great Fortitude grants exactly what the Fighter got at level 1.
Iron Will grants exactly what the Cleric got at level 1.
Lightening Reflexes grants exactly what the Rogue got at level 1.
Paragon Defenses grants exactly what the Paladin got at level 1.

Of course, there might even be some more obvious examples in Arcane Power:
Arcane Aegis grants exactly what the Sword Mage got at level 1.
Healing Song grants exactly what the Bard got at level 1.
Implement Master grants exactly what the Wizard got at level 1.
Sorcerous Power grants exactly what the Sorcerer got at level 1.
Walker In Gloom grants exactly what the Warlock got at level 1.

And while I don't own Martial Power, I'm betting that it also has multiclass feats for paragon level similar to the ones that Arcane Power has.

I don't really see how you can claim that any of these feats grant something too powerful for a first level character to have, because first level characters do have them. It's just that they grant something too powerful to be obtained by a heroic tier feat.

You did make it more powerful

Yes, I know, that's what I mean. I can't think of a conceivable way make Ferocity work but not make it more powerful, so I had to make it more powerful to make it work. I know I made it more powerful; I couldn't have done otherwise. The only other options would have been to remove it completely or complicate it needlessly.

And this goes back to what I said in my first reply: You should just replace it outright if you don't like it.

But again I'll repeat: I did like it. Ferocity is a very flavorful ability, and I do like it. That's exactly why I decided to save it. If I didn't like it, I would have replaced it outright.

Unless something has significantly changed since 3.5, CharOp is all about making things absurdly and unjustly powerful.

Yes, but this also means that those who frequent the board are generally much better at judging balance, because they know exactly what can and cannot be used to make thing absurdly and unjustly powerful. ;)
This wouldn't be the first time I went to them for advice with a home brew's power level, and I'm also certainly not the only one who does so. They actually do pretty good work over there.

Oh, I'm sorry. I will be more specific - it knocks Prone as a standard action regardless of how it is used, as opposed to only on a Charge.

If this standard action usage would be one that would normally be allowing a melee basic attack instead, then yes. In the original draft of this Minotaur, the power simply always knocked its target prone and that was that, but it was brought up after a trip to the CharOp board that knocking prone on a Minor action may be too abusable, and so this change was made in order to preserve the original uses of the power should a character want to use it on a charge or opportunity attack.

Ferocity should be stripped of its melee/attack parallelism

Yes, the purpose allowing any at-will attack power to be used was exactly to strip Ferocity of its specific focus on melee attack.

Gore should be removed and replaced with something else.

I can see why you might want to do that, but there are many reasons not to:
1) Again the accessibility problem. Make a home-brew too different and out there, and people won't use it. The purpose of this home-brew is exactly to change as little as possible to make it accessible.
2) There's no need to, because although the original Goring Charge was not good from a design perspective, it was salvageable. If it was capable of being salvaged, I don't see why not salvage it.
3) What could it be replaced with? This is a Minotaur, and people want to see a Minotaur use its horns for something. I can't conceive of any racial power a Minotaur could have other than an attack of some kind with its horns.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Cartigan, this is untrue:

> You realize of course that those two things are mutually exclusive. You
> can't be too powerful for a heroic tier feat but not too powerful for a
> level 1 character (ie, HEROIC TIER).

There are a number of racial features with paragon-tier feat equivalents, and racial features are most definitely heroic tier.


That said, I agree that an at-will power use is too strong an effect. Granting a basic attack is enough; it doesn't need to be limited to a melee basic attack though (unlike the Dragon version), which would make it more useful to ranged characters.
Cartigan, this is untrue:

> You realize of course that those two things are mutually exclusive. You
> can't be too powerful for a heroic tier feat but not too powerful for a
> level 1 character (ie, HEROIC TIER).

There are a number of racial features with paragon-tier feat equivalents, and racial features are most definitely heroic tier.

Except the fact he is replacing a racial feature with the paragon tier upgrade to that feature, so even if what I said is untrue in the general sense, it is most certainly true in this case.
In the original draft of this Minotaur, the power simply always knocked its target prone and that was that,

The power could only be used as a charge and you, again, had to take a feat to use it as an opportunity attack. You made it so that it ALWAYS knocks the target prone when used as a standard action.

1) Again the accessibility problem. Make a home-brew too different and out there, and people won't use it. The purpose of this home-brew is exactly to change as little as possible to make it accessible.

That doesn't make any sense.

2) There's no need to, because although the original Goring Charge was not good from a design perspective, it was salvageable. If it was capable of being salvaged, I don't see why not salvage it.

Because in "fixing" the Minotaur, you managed to unbalance its abilities.

I can't conceive of any racial power a Minotaur could have other than an attack of some kind with its horns.

Believe me, I already realized that
The power could only be used as a charge and you, again, had to take a feat to use it as an opportunity attack. You made it so that it ALWAYS knocks the target prone when used as a standard action.

Okay, I think we're on two different pages here. What exactly do you mean by, "when used as a standard action"? Because using it as an Opportunity Attack is not using it as a standard action. If your concern is that it knocks prone when used on a charge and when used on an OA, the old Minotaur already did those, so I didn't actually change anything there.

That doesn't make any sense.

What about it do you not understand?
I didn't want to make this too different from the official Minotaur, because the more different I make it, the less likely it is that people will like or use it because a lot of people have an inherent bias against home brews. This was never intended to be a completely original creation, just some minor modifications to fix what the old Minotaur got so wrong.

Because in "fixing" the Minotaur, you managed to unbalance its abilities.

"Improved" is not necessarily the same as "unbalanced". However, I do understand your concern that both Ferocity and the racial power have been improved, and so I'm currently considering removing Beast Within as a racial feature... And/or maybe only allowing Gore to replace the melee basic attack at the end of a charge (though this might be complicated, which I want to avoid)... And/or maybe bring Ferocity back to any basic attack (though this still rubs me the wrong way because of how it interacts with implement-using classes)...

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Changing it to any basic attack still leaves it miles ahead of the old version. At least with any basic attack wizards could use magic missile, warlocks could use eldritch blast, and sorcerers could use acid orb.
Sorry to de-rail this. But in the first post the OP mentions that oversize is no in the "Official PC Version" of the Minotaur. Where can I find that info?

Kaz
Okay, I think we're on two different pages here. What exactly do you mean by, "when used as a standard action"? Because using it as an Opportunity Attack is not using it as a standard action. If your concern is that it knocks prone when used on a charge and when used on an OA, the old Minotaur already did those, so I didn't actually change anything there.

You said you can make a Gore in place of a melee basic attack, even when making a standard attack. Yes, Goring Charge could be used as an Opportunity Attack, via a feat.

"Improved" is not necessarily the same as "unbalanced".

Indeed. However, when it is VERY easy to make the argument that "improvement" equates to "unbalanced" then it is.

However, I do understand your concern that both Ferocity and the racial power have been improved, and so I'm currently considering removing Beast Within as a racial feature...

Beast Within and Natural Cunning are the only thing I like. The holdover "updates" are too forced. You want to be notably different but significantly the same. I disagree with that style of work. Did you see my suggestion for Ferocity instead?
Minotaur quite simply cannot function reasonably well as members of these classes, and that is contrary to the 4E PC race design philosophy.

I disagree, A minotaur can be whatever it wants. It might not be the best or have perfect abilities to match it but its not going to ruin a character.

Take for example my Gnome Warden character. No racial modifiers to any of his main stats he needs. but it still works.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

I disagree, A minotaur can be whatever it wants. It might not be the best or have perfect abilities to match it but its not going to ruin a character.

Take for example my Gnome Warden character. No racial modifiers to any of his main stats he needs. but it still works.

I agree. All races are statted for specific professions. It's obvious. I think his point was that the Minotaur racial abilities are solely useful to melee classes and none other.
Changing it to any basic attack still leaves it miles ahead of the old version. At least with any basic attack wizards could use magic missile, warlocks could use eldritch blast, and sorcerers could use acid orb.

This is true, but it still makes me feel weird that implement-users would be required to select certain at-will powers in order to make it work, which is why I'm hesitant to make that change if I can make another change instead.

Sorry to de-rail this. But in the first post the OP mentions that oversize is no in the "Official PC Version" of the Minotaur. Where can I find that info?

Kaz

Dragon Magazine #369.
Unfortunately, it's now subscription only, but at the time of this topic's creation, it was still open to non-subscribers.

You said you can make a Gore in place of a melee basic attack, even when making a standard attack.

Yes, I did. What was the problem with this again? I followed the line of this specific discussion back to its origin, and apparently it was you asking my if Gore knocks prone every time it's used, to which the answer was no. Are we now simply clarifying what Gore does?

Yes, Goring Charge could be used as an Opportunity Attack, via a feat.

The feat that allowed it to be used on an Opportunity Attack without expending the power even if the power was already expended? The feat which I still have up that does the exact same thing? Because allowing Gore to be used for opportunity attacks is not as powerful as allowing it to be used on an Opportunity Attack without expending it even if it was already expended. As is, this minotaur still definitely expends his racial power if he decides to used Gore on an Opportunity Attack and doesn't have that feat.

Indeed. However, when it is VERY easy to make the argument that "improvement" equates to "unbalanced" then it is.

But you haven't.
The only argument I can see that you've made for it being overpowered is that it was a paragon tier feat, but you've already been shown by both myself and another poster that this reasoning isn't good enough because there are many paragon feats that grant things characters could otherwise obtain at level 1.
Again, just because it's a paragon tier feat doesn't mean that it's too powerful for a 1st level character to possess, only that it's too powerful to be a heroic tier feat.
So other than the fact that it used to be obtainable only by a paragon tier feat, do you have any other reasoning or argument to suggest this version of Ferocity is too powerful? I would like to remind you that the Minotaur will not even get to use this racial feature on most days, as it only activated when the character is brought down to 0 HP.

Beast Within and Natural Cunning are the only thing I like. The holdover "updates" are too forced.

You keep saying that, that it seems "forced" but I really have zero idea what you mean by that. "Forced" makes it sound like it was difficult or complex, but it was neither of those. This is seriously what he thought process was for Ferocity:
"Okay, so right now, it's only useful for weapon-using, melee characters because it can only activate a basic melee attack. Let's make it useful for everybody. How about any basic attack? No, that still leaves out a lot of implement users. How about any at-will attack power? Perfect, that makes it useful for everybody. Oh hey look, it turns out that used to be a Paragon tier feats. Wow, I wonder why they didn't just make that the default way Ferocity works..."
What about this seems forced to you? I don't understand.

You want to be notably different but significantly the same. I disagree with that style of work.

What style of work? This isn't a pure homebrew. It's a fix. If you want to take a look at the style of work I use with my home-brews, I'll invite you to my sig, where there are three home-brew races... I should really get to linking to my other work at some point too...

Did you see my suggestion for Ferocity instead?

I did, and it's both overpowered and overcomplicated.
"When reduced to zero hit-points, the Minotaur can use a healing surge and add their Constitution modifier to the hit points gained."
Or, put into Ferocity where the attack would normally go, it looks like this:
Ferocity: If you are reduced to 0 or fewer Hit Points, you can use a healing surge and add your Constitution modifier to the hit points gained as a free action before falling unconscious.
This makes Minotaurs immortal so long as they have healing surges left, and I have no idea how you could think that would be balanced while still believing that an at-will attack power would be broken. I suppose you could limit it to once per encounter or once per day, but I may still find that questionable...
As for overcomplicated, that's because you're inserting original work and taking the Minotaur farther away from the official versions when a major point of this whole thing was not to make anything up of my own at all and instead work with what the Minotaur already had in order to make it more accessible.

If what you were hoping for from this thread was a completely different Minotaur, I can certainly understand why you might want one, and I'm certainly not against one being made. Heck, I wouldn't be completely opposed to making one myself. However, that is not what the purpose of this topic is. The purpose of this topic is to simply modify what we were already given and make that work.

I disagree, A minotaur can be whatever it wants. It might not be the best or have perfect abilities to match it but its not going to ruin a character.

This is simply not true. A Minotaur can be whatever it wants, yes, but the Minotaur is one of the only official races I can think of with which you can say that playing certain class is a flat-out bad idea. Playing the official Minotaur with certain class will ruin your character, because the official Minotaur does not function reasonably well as a member of any class.

Take for example my Gnome Warden character. No racial modifiers to any of his main stats he needs. but it still works.

Yes, it still works, because a Gnome has racial feature which are beneficial regardless of class or role choice. A Gnome Warden can still benefit from Low-Light Vision. A Gnome Warden can still benefit from having Ghost Sound as an encounter power. A Gnome Warden can still benefit from being able to make a Stealth check when it makes its initiative check. A Gnome Warden can still benefit from a +5 racial bonus to saving throws against illusions. A Gnome Warden can still benefit from turning invisible until the end of its next turn as an immediate reaction to taking damage once per encounter.

To contrast, a Minotaur Warlock cannot benefit from Oversized, because all of its powers are Implement-based. A Minotaur Warlock cannot benefit from Ferocity, because it won't have a weapon with which to make a melee basic attack. A Minotaur Warlock cannot benefit from Heedless Charge, because it's a ranged class and role that won't want to charge into melee and won't have a weapon with which to make a melee basic attack at the end of that charge anyways. A Minotaur Warlock cannot benefit from Goring Charge unless it decides not to fulfill its class or party role for a round. Lather, rinse, and repeat for the Minotaur Wizards, Druids, Invokers, Shamans, and Sorcerers.

Now let me be clear; there's nothing wrong with a race making a more successful member of one class than of another class, but making a race that functions well as one class but not even reasonably well at all as another class is completely contrary to the 4E PC race design philosophy.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
This is simply not true. A Minotaur can be whatever it wants, yes, but the Minotaur is one of the only official races I can think of with which you can say that playing certain class is a flat-out bad idea. Playing the official Minotaur with certain class will ruin your character, because the official Minotaur does not function reasonably well as a member of any class.

Take hobgoblin, it only has a feature to end saving throws, nothing good in there. Or Gnolls, same issue as Minotaur that you seem to find. Or bladeling? No bonuses to anything except an acid resistance and a close burst ability. Is that broken because it assumes that you are going to be in melee range?

Half Orc, Bonus to Charging, broken because you need to be in melee to use it?

I still dont see your "This is broken and not to be used at all."

Take for example the Dhampyr feat, you gain a melee attack, is this broken because it assumes that you must be in melee to make use of its ability?

This is not a knock at your homebrewness, rather a questioning of your motivations on redoing it.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.