Aspect of 4th that, no matter how hard I try, I can't suspend disbelief

451 posts / 0 new
Last post
I know it's a game. I know that too much realism can ruin the experience. I know it's supposed to be fun. I know people don't want to get encumbered by details that slow down the action. But, I'm sorry, healing charges is the most horrifically retarded idea in the history of gaming.

Look, I played 3.5 as a cleric for my group. I remember running out of healing spells. I remember characters dying after simple encounters. It wasn't exactly fun. But you know what I've discovered? It's less fun trying to reconcile the idea that HUMANS CAN'T HEAL AT WILL.

Humans CANNOT heal at will. That's just . . . no. I've played games and video games all my life. I don't think I've ever heard of such a lazy answer to the health problem.

chicken drumsticks
power packs
rations
first-aid kits
healing spells
enertron
HEALTH POTION

If I'm running outdoors with five arrows stuck in my back, and I get a second wind, that doesn't mean I've stopped bleeding. That doesn't mean my internal organs are any less damaged. That doesn't mean I'm not going to pass out in any later than I would have. It just means that I have the energy to move a little more while I'm still conscious.
I don't suppose you're making the age-old mistake of comparing Hit Points to actual wounds? Since HPs are a total abstraction, they have absolutely no ties to wounds, bleeding, or anything else. They simply measure how close (or far) your character is from death. To put much more thought into them than that is to invite disbelief.
If I'm running outdoors with five arrows stuck in my back, and I get a second wind, that doesn't mean I've stopped bleeding. That doesn't mean my internal organs are any less damaged. That doesn't mean I'm not going to pass out in any later than I would have. It just means that I have the energy to move a little more while I'm still conscious.

What makes you think it means anything different in 4th Edition? I mean... you've explicitly described my understanding of how the "Second Wind" and non-magical "healing" in general works.

Also, there are an absolute mess of previous threads describing the same topic. I'm guessing the Search feature would help you out quite a bit.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
I don't suppose you're making the age-old mistake of comparing Hit Points to actual wounds? Since HPs are a total abstraction, they have absolutely no ties to wounds, bleeding, or anything else. They simply measure how close (or far) your character is from death. To put much more thought into them than that is to invite disbelief.

Exactly. Loss of Hit Points does not necessarily mean a physical would was delivered. Hit Points are an abstract measurement of how long you can stay in a fight. Spending healing surges or taking your second wind just means you're resting and getting your energy back, clearing your head (making you better capable of defending yourself) and so on.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I don't suppose you're making the age-old mistake of comparing Hit Points to actual wounds?

He is.
If I'm running outdoors with five arrows stuck in my back, and I get a second wind, that doesn't mean I've stopped bleeding. That doesn't mean my internal organs are any less damaged. That doesn't mean I'm not going to pass out in any later than I would have. It just means that I have the energy to move a little more while I'm still conscious.

The trouble is (as has been pointed out in numerous threads on this very concept) that HP do not now, and never have, represented actual physical damage. Go ahead and read way back in Basic or 1st Ed. about what HP meant, and they do not mean physical damage.

That's a part of it, sure. But it's meant to represent physical damage/luck/skill/morale/will to fight/energy level. Second wind is just that; taking a moment to psyche yourself up, get past the fact that this thing almost took your arm off, and keep fighting. The only time physical wounds are described at my own table is when the final blow is delivered and the PC or monster is knocked out or killed. That's when the person is stabbed/slashed/clubbed, whatever. Until then it was either inconsequential hits that might hurt a bit but do no "real" damage, or near misses that sap the will to fight and make you more tired.

In other words, Second Wind isn't really healing at all; it's just regaining your composure or however you want to describe it. The Cleric's Healing Word might be real healing if you want to describe it that way, but that's about it.

EDIT: Wow. Totally ninjad on that one.
Resident jark. Resident Minister of Education and Misinformation.
My question to you is; Why are there arrows in your back because of hit points? Hit points is an abstract system, and cannot be used to utilise realism in DnD.

When someone regain hit points. They do not close up any wounds, it's a mechanic.

And realism in 3.5... It's a wonder that people got hurt considering the amount of Casters available that utilised healing spells (clerics, druids, that-NPC-caster-which-I-cannot-remember-the-name-of, etc.) that SHOULD exist by RAW (expected in communities) it's a wonder any middle class and above citizen ever got hurt the slightest.

EDIT: über-ninjaed
Of course you can heal at-will. You spend a second wind or take a health potion as a standard action.
Humans CANNOT heal at will. That's just . . . no. I've played games and video games all my life. I don't think I've ever heard of such a lazy answer to the health problem.

chicken drumsticks
power packs
rations
first-aid kits
healing spells
enertron
HEALTH POTION

I find somewhat hilarius that you say it is ilogicall becouse real life humans do not heal at will, and as a proof you say you have played videogames and in those videogames people healed with rations, chickens and powerpacks

Do you want to see a good example of second wind?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPdukhSNrW8&feature=related
There are quite a lot in this film too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StuihXsyEqU&feature=related
I assume you know that Hip Points don't represent wounds right??? Obviously not.

HP in 4e (and all other editions of DnD) encompass way more than wounds. If you look at the definition in the PHB you will see that.

Frankly, I get most of the other beefs with 4e, heck I even agree with some. This one, however, is just plain ridiculous! I'm going to present 2 scenarios below 4e, and your version (I don't sayother editions, because they were never really like this).

4e
In combat, you duck, you weave, you jump, you dodge. Blows that should squarly hit others miss altogether. When they do hit you spin to the side to make it a glancing blow. Sometimes you roll with it to take away the momentum. Or, you twist in a way that few others could manage so that the blow crumples a piece of armour instead of your skull. All of this takes energy (HP), and resilience and luck so that after a while you just can't do it anymore. A solid blow catches you and you are bloodied. You pull yourself together and dodge some more but eventually another blow hits and down you go. Eventually, a buddy binds your wounds and wakes you up. With a few moments you catch your breath and clear your head so that you can carry on. Your body isn't perfect but you are an adventurer you can carry on (that is you have full HP - see it works both ways since HP aren't wounds, being full HP doesn't mean you body is unscratched it just means you can carry on.)

Your version.
You get stabbed in the chest with a sword, punturing your lung. You get bit in the leg cutting an artery. YOu get stabbed again, this time in the heart. Clubbed in the brain. Stabbed again. And again, and again. YOur body is now riddled with hole. That's okay you are an adventurer you have lots of HP, holes in your body don't bother you. Anyway, the cleric will fix those up.

So let me get this straight, you find the second one more realistic??? Sorry but that idea is just stupid. If you get stabbed with a sword a couple of times - you die!!! I don't care how often you've been stabbed before, I don't care how much experience you have. HP as wounds is absolutely retarded. HP as a measure of your ability to not take actual wounds when everything else says you should (ie: they hit) is so much more realistic.

Sure, sometimes monster HP represent their massive bodies being able to absorb damage. But, your PC is not a monster. No, matter what level he is, one sword blow to the heart kills him. Unless he can wiggle out of the way, or roll with the blow so that is glances off his armour, or maybe he just gets lucky and it twists off his button.

Stop thinking HP=ability to be stabbed and keep going. That is beyond anyone's suspension of disbelief. Start thinking more realistically, that HP must represent resilience, the experience to turn the solid blow aside, and all the otherthings they say in the d*** definition you didn't read!

EDIT:Holy ninjas batman, I though I was first reponder when I started:P
Of course you can heal at-will. You spend a second wind or take a health potion as a standard action.

:heehee
rensyphon, as others have stated fairly eloquently, if somewhat belligerently at times, your current view of HP isn't going to mesh well with Healing Surges. It might take a few sessions, but if your group adjusts its view of HP, you may find DnD as a whole becomes easier to believe.

As Boethius61 said, adventurers were never supposed to be able to just suck up stab wounds, crushed bones, and the like. I've noticed some WotC novelists even portray it that way, much to my chagrin, so you're not alone in having viewed them that way. That said, HP have always represented fatigue, near misses, luck, and all the little things that go into avoiding or turning a lethal blow. Viewing them in that way leads to both more cinematic and more realistic combat.

I was personally very pleased to see Healing Surges in 4E. They appeared first in Star Wars Saga Edition rules, which were developed alongside 4E, and I found them very believable. For me, it's been easier with 4E to suspend disbelief in regard to Healing, as it has been toned down quite a bit from 3E (in my opinion, at least).

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

I wish people would stop telling people to stop thinking of HP as a determination of how close to dying you are. It is, in fact, that. If you have 28 HP, and you lose 7 HP - 25 percent of your total health - you have lost 25% of your body. One fourth of your body mass has been removed. One fourth of you is dead.

Alright, I guess HP is kind of an abstraction. But seriously, it shouldn't be *that* abstract. 0 HP means you're dead, or dying. Always. When you lose HP, you've been wounded. You're either badly bruised, or bleeding, when you're hit by a weapon. It hasn't harmed your morale - it hit you in the body.
Hit point loss is injury, fatigue, despair etc.

Imagine cinematically or in a book seeing/reading the hero beaten and battered and then finding the inner strength to go on when it seems they should fall? That's what makes 'em heroes.

Second Wind Healing Surge narratively,

"I remember my father's words telling me to never give up."

"I take a swig of brandy to steel my courage."

"I look over at my bloodied comrade and feel anger give me renewed strength to go on."

"I call to the spirit of the great bear to see me through this time of need."

"I promise [insert deity] a fine offering if only I can best this foe."

"I remember the bodies of his victims."

"You killed my father, prepare to die!"

Rob
When you lose HP, you've been wounded. You're either badly bruised, or bleeding, when you're hit by a weapon. It hasn't harmed your morale - it hit you in the body.

Or your body's fatigued and/or taxed by dodging and deflecting so many attacks. A bruised man is hurt, a wounded man is stabbed, shot, or the like.

You might be hurting if you've lost HP. Maybe your shield arm is tingling after that last blow from the Ogre's mace, or you twisted an ankle dodging the drow's rapier. These are a hurt man's complaints. The wounded man is the one that just got Bloodied or dropped because the troll smacked his head, or the drow stabbed him in the thigh/gut/etc...

I agree with you that HP represent some of the things you've described, they just don't represent serious wounds to most of us. Rather, they represent minor, yet accumulating, hurts, as well as the energy expended to avoid serious wounds.

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

But, I'm sorry, healing charges is the most horrifically retarded idea in the history of gaming.

(snip)

If I'm running outdoors with five arrows stuck in my back, and I get a second wind, that doesn't mean I've stopped bleeding. That doesn't mean my internal organs are any less damaged. That doesn't mean I'm not going to pass out in any later than I would have. It just means that I have the energy to move a little more while I'm still conscious.

I've said this in numerous threads, and I'm going to keep saying it.

The system tells you that you take hit point damage from an attack (plus any associated conditions).

The player and the DM describe how that damage manifests (painful scratch, nasty cut on arm, five arrows in back).

The system then tells how you can regain the hit points lost to those attacks.

The player and DM describe how that healing manifests (you quickly bind the wound, you stitch up the gaping wounds after removing the arrows, you knock back a sip of dwarf whisky and ignore them).

If the players and the DM choose to describe the injury in such a way that the healing doesn't make sense, this is their fault. It is not the fault of the game. To use your own words, describing an injury which, by the rules can easily be healed by 'taking a second wind', as a massive injury, such as five arrows stuck in your back, might be "the most horrifically retarded idea in the history of gaming".

If you choose to describe the Sleep spell as causing irreparable brain damage, throwing the victim into a bottomless coma, then, yes, when they save and wake up, it seems dumb.

If you choose to describe the attack which does only 10 points of damage to the dragon as a massive blow from your axe, burying the blade deep in the monster's cranium, then yes, it does seem dumb when the monster doesn't die.

The system never, ever tells you to describe something which can easily be healed as a massive, long-lasting wound. The fact that you choose to do so, despite knowing that the system will allow you to recover from it promptly, does not appear in any way to be the fault of the system, unless you expect the system to prevent you from ever doing anything blindingly obviously wrong.
Edit: nvm, misinterpreted
If you have 28 HP, and you lose 7 HP - 25 percent of your total health - you have lost 25% of your body. One fourth of your body mass has been removed. One fourth of you is dead.

This would have made me snort milk out my nose, if I were drinking milk. Thank you for this image. I love the idea of every fight being a LEGO battle. You knock the evil mage's arm off. He uses a magic missile and removes your leg. You spend a healing surge and pick it up and put it back on. Great!:D
I wish people would stop telling people to stop thinking of HP as a determination of how close to dying you are. It is, in fact, that. If you have 28 HP, and you lose 7 HP - 25 percent of your total health - you have lost 25% of your body. One fourth of your body mass has been removed. One fourth of you is dead.

That's... nowhere near how the rules actually work (they are, for one, nothing like that specific). [EDIT: Are you being sarcastic, and I just missed it?]

Actually, it's contrary to how hit points explicitly work, as described on page 293.

Over the course of a battle, you take damage from attacks. Hit points (hp) measure your ability to stand up to punishment, turn deadly strikes into glancing blows, and stay on your feet throughout a battle. Hit points represent more than physical endurance. They represent your character’s skill, luck, and resolve—all the factors that combine to help you stay alive in a combat situation.

Actually, more on-topic to the original post, and slightly down the page...

Powers, abilities, and actions that restore hit points are known as healing. You might regain hit points through rest, heroic resolve, or magic. When you heal, add the number to your current hit points. You can heal up to your maximum hit point total, but you can’t exceed it.

Note: EMPHASIS added.

Alright, I guess HP is kind of an abstraction. But seriously, it shouldn't be *that* abstract.

"Kind of" is an understatement. "Hit Points" are merely a mechanic to determine how close you are to being defeated.

0 HP means you're dead, or dying. Always. When you lose HP, you've been wounded.

I'm not familiar with prior editions, but I can tell you, without a doubt, that 0 HP does not mean that you are dead nor dying in 3.5 (SRD for support).

In fact, one can sit at -9 hit points, and so long as he is "Stable" (and "tended" - there's a rule I never knew, and handily ignored) he will recover.

You're either badly bruised, or bleeding, when you're hit by a weapon. It hasn't harmed your morale - it hit you in the body.

Nowhere does it say that. You're free to run it that way, but don't expect that to be the "core."

Some characters might never describe a "hit" as physical damage... until they finally go down. Others may take one or two actual "wounds" (one at bloodied, one when they drop). And still others may describe every hit as a solid blow, but be the John McClane kind of hero that takes a real serious beating throughout the adventure, but keeps on pushing through by power of pure grit and determination.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
This would have made me snort milk out my nose, if I were drinking milk. Thank you for this image. I love the idea of every fight being a LEGO battle. You knock the evil mage's arm off. He uses a magic missile and removes your leg. You spend a healing surge and pick it up and put it back on. Great!:D

Oh man, that is awesome.

Just picture it: You've been doing very well, so the monsters are all bloodied (50% hit points), and you've only lost... let's say, an arm each. You are a one-armed party of adventurers fighting a horde of monster-torsos. Classy. :D
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
In my honest and personal opinion, the surge-system must be the foremost and innovative creation to represent abstract HP, since SWRPGs Vitality/Wounds. SO many things fit together in the long run:

-Since your 75% of the time not taking actual physical damage, regaining HPs by resting makes so much sense from a narrative perspective. Bandaging wounds also makes sense from the few times you got hit.

-Surges of adrenaline that replenishes HP makes sense, from a cinematic view. Lash out from your inner strength or regain your focus from a few inspiring shouts from the Cleric/Warlord.

-Clerics can not heal unlimited, or any other power that rely on surges. Even if healing can happen x amounts of times every 5 minutes or more, it relies on the bearers own bodily endurance (amount of healing surges). From a more or less simulationist view, you cannot sustain a body too much with Divine energies/Kicks in the butt/Songs/Strange arcane powders/Healing potions.
While 4e does explicitly define HP as an abstraction, it would have done wonders if the term had been changed to one that doesn't instantly conjure images of bodily harm every time a combatant hits another combatant, resulting in a loss of hit points. Given 4e's emphasis on cinematic action, I think Fate Points or Fatigue Points would be a better term.

Maybe in 5e.
TS
Well, I didn't bother to read the whole thread, so forgive me if I'm just repeating what someone else said.

First, you don't take serious wounds until you're bloodied. Anything before that is just light damage. (scratches, bruises)

As for healing surges, I see them more like an adrenaline rush, or something like that.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/6.jpg)

Well, I didn't bother to read the whole thread, so forgive me if I'm just repeating what someone else said.

First, you don't take serious wounds until you're bloodied. Anything before that is just light damage. (scratches, bruises)

As for healing surges, I see them more like an adrenaline rush, or something like that.

Dang it, all you did was repeat everything I already said! It's practically plagiarism!

You are now my archenemy!

= baneofelves

:P

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

I'm an emperor now? Nice!

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/6.jpg)

Just to put it a different way;

PCs are not now, nor have they ever been, pressurized sacks of blood that lose contents upon taking HP damage. Hit Points are still the same abstraction they've always been, they're just easier for non-clerics to get back.
While 4e does explicitly define HP as an abstraction, it would have done wonders if the term had been changed to one that doesn't instantly conjure images of bodily harm every time a combatant hits another combatant, resulting in a loss of hit points. Given 4e's emphasis on cinematic action, I think Fate Points or Fatigue Points would be a better term.

Maybe in 5e.
TS

Indeed, but it's kind of a product identity thing. Hit points (whatever they are) are part of D&D. But yes, some confusion could have been lessened with better wording.

See also: "saving throw", "alignment", and--most egregiously--"multiclassing".
Oh man, that is awesome.

Just picture it: You've been doing very well, so the monsters are all bloodied (50% hit points), and you've only lost... let's say, an arm each. You are a one-armed party of adventurers fighting a horde of monster-torsos. Classy. :D

I GMd a (short) campaign of Saga Star Wars set in the lego universe. Body Part Loss = Condition Track Movement.
While 4e does explicitly define HP as an abstraction, it would have done wonders if the term had been changed to one that doesn't instantly conjure images of bodily harm every time a combatant hits another combatant, resulting in a loss of hit points. Given 4e's emphasis on cinematic action, I think Fate Points or Fatigue Points would be a better term.

Deeply insightful and intelligent. Perhaps part of the problem of the (silly) people is the terminalogy. I like fatigue points. More acurate and emphasises the right things. I'd cookie you but I'm on a diet and all the cookies are out of the house. Instead I offer . . . Now if I could only get rid of the one frozen to my front step . . .
I'm an emperor now? Nice!

...or any other nefarious, supremely evil, archenemy-type you may have, at some point, wished to be.

I guess I could've typed baneofelves = :88E:, or , or . Any of these could be used to imply just how evil you were in not slogging through the previous twenty-odd posts before sharing your opinion. Shame on you.

I'll stop now before I get banned from emoticons for life.

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

While 4e does explicitly define HP as an abstraction, it would have done wonders if the term had been changed to one that doesn't instantly conjure images of bodily harm every time a combatant hits another combatant, resulting in a loss of hit points. Given 4e's emphasis on cinematic action, I think Fate Points or Fatigue Points would be a better term.

Maybe in 5e.
TS

QFT.

As Boethius alludes, though, you can only slay so many sacred cows before...well... you're surrounded by superfluous beef....err... something terrible like that. Sacred Cows are sacred, damn it!

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

One fourth of your body mass has been removed.

All I can imagine is one arm and a portion of my torso just...gone.
As Boethius alludes, though, you can only slay so many sacred cows before...well... you're surrounded by superfluous beef....err... something terrible like that.

This kind of superfluous beef?

IMAGE(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll46/chris_king1976/beefstronganhoff.jpg)

Or this kind?

IMAGE(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll46/chris_king1976/funny_cow_nipples.gif)
All I can imagine is one arm and a portion of my torso just...gone.

Aye. Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

Imagine a warrior with 100 HP. When he's down to 1 HP, he's just a toe hopping around (but still alive, of course).
Aye. Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

Imagine a warrior with 100 HP. When he's down to 1 HP, he's just a toe hopping around (but still alive, of course).

http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/hp.html :P
Hit point loss is injury, fatigue, despair etc.

Imagine cinematically or in a book seeing/reading the hero beaten and battered and then finding the inner strength to go on when it seems they should fall? That's what makes 'em heroes.

Second Wind Healing Surge narratively,

"I remember my father's words telling me to never give up."

"I take a swig of brandy to steel my courage."

"I look over at my bloodied comrade and feel anger give me renewed strength to go on."

"I call to the spirit of the great bear to see me through this time of need."

"I promise [insert deity] a fine offering if only I can best this foe."

"I remember the bodies of his victims."

"You killed my father, prepare to die!"

Rob

You stole my thought process as I read the thread.

But to the OP, how many movies have you seen or books have you read where the hero(es) reached deep down to get that little extra something.

What would the Princess Bride be as a movie had Inigo Montoya fell after taking the stomach wound from the dagger. He used his Second Wind and came back to kill Count Rugen.

What would all the Rocky movies be if Rocky had stayed down and not come back to beat the XYZ, coming back from defeat. He was out of it, thought to himself, "Yo, Adrian", and got back up.

Boromir's last stand, having taken several fatal shots, allowed him to continue to fight for the hobbits defense. He sucked it up, stood back up, fought off some more Uruk-Hai until Lurtz used another daily power on him.

Along with everything else that Lord in Grey posted, Second Wind (and thus Healing Surges) are a part of most movies and books. The Hero takes a wound that would drop anyone else, but they come back, seemingly stronger than before.

If you're (the OP or anyone on that thought process) is having trouble wrapping your mind around it, go sit and watch some movies. If you have no issue with them "coming back from deaths door" to strike back at their foes, you shouldn't have an issue with it in D&D.
If you're (the OP or anyone on that thought process) is having trouble wrapping your mind around it, go sit and watch some movies. If you have no issue with them "coming back from deaths door" to strike back at their foes, you shouldn't have an issue with it in D&D.

I already posted it, but this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPdukhSNrW8
is a perfect example of what a second wind is. It's cinematic to no end. Basic cinematic trope, I would dare to say.
But to the OP, how many movies have you seen or books have you read where the hero(es) reached deep down to get that little extra something.

If you're (the OP or anyone on that thought process) is having trouble wrapping your mind around it, go sit and watch some movies. If you have no issue with them "coming back from deaths door" to strike back at their foes, you shouldn't have an issue with it in D&D.

This where a large divide in gamers comes up. You have, basically, 2 groups:

1) The simulationist. This person wants as many realsitic elements as possible in their game. If you get an arrow in the back, they want you to bleed. They want you to suffer, as though it were real life. These people have trouble letting go of many realistic things in lieu of fantasy. These people also have a distinct lack of role-playing ability. They want to be able to look at a sheet of paper, or a book, and read exactly what happens, and how they should act. These are also the current crop of people complaining about the lack of many of the prior-edition skills. It doesn't really matter to them that most of those skills will never be used...they want them in black-and-white, right in front of them, should they ever decide to use them. They also want to relate Hit Points with wounds.

2) The fantasist. This person has no problem at all with their PCs being reduced to 1 Hit Point, yet still being able to win the fight, only to rest a bit and be fine. They don't mind their PC being dropped to 0 Hit Points, being healed by a Cleric, standing back up, and slaying the dragon as though nothing ever happened. They're in it for the story, not the realism. If their PC can fly, great! If they can walk on water with no real explanation, great! If they DO require an explanation, usually a very simple one will suffice. "Why can my PC suddenly walk on water?" "Well...he's in a magic-zone that allows it". "Oh, OK! Great!" They don't relate HP to anything other than a game mechanic. They don't care that Crafting: Basketweaving is no longer on their CRS...they role-play it. They're an easy-going bunch.

This is not to say that either group is wrong, or bad, or anything else. It has, in my 20+ years of DMing, been easy to put players into one group or another. I really don't think D&D is for the hardcore Simulationist player. I don't think it ever was. There has always been too many things that you kind of have to shrug off as "fantasy and nothing more". 4E is no different. However...and this is kind of cool...4E is easily ran as either Simulationist or Fantasist. The simulationist can focus on the combat rules...the minis, maps, grids, and so on. The fantasist can do everything else.

I, for one, am a fantasist. If I want realism I'll put the dice down and stick my head out the front door or watch the news.
If you have 28 HP, and you lose 7 HP - 25 percent of your total health - you have lost 25% of your body. One fourth of your body mass has been removed. One fourth of you is dead.

"You're dead, Marcie, dead!"

If Rant wasn't so funny, he'd be on ignore... Keep posting, Rant!
D&D 4E Herald and M:tG Rules Advisor I expect posters to follow the Code of Conduct, use Basic Etiquette, and avoid Poor Logic. If you don't follow these guidelines, I consider you to be disrespectful to everyone on these forums. If you respond to me without following these guidelines, I consider it a personal attack. I grew up in a bilingual household, which means I am familiar with the difficulties in adopting a different vocabulary and grammar. That doesn't bother me. Persistent use of bad capitalization, affirming the consequent, and flaming bother me a great deal.
Rule that I would change: 204.1b
204.1b Some effects change an object’s card type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior card type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object’s prior card types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase “in addition to its types” or that state that something is “still a [card type].” Some effects state that an object becomes an “artifact creature”; these effects also allow the object to retain all of its prior card types and subtypes.
"Eight Edition Rules Update" We eventually decided not to change this template, because players are used to “becomes an artifact creature,” and like it much better.
Players were used to Combat on the Stack, but you got rid of that because it was unintuitive. The only phrase needed is "in addition to its types"; the others are misleading and unintuitive.
While 4e does explicitly define HP as an abstraction, it would have done wonders if the term had been changed to one that doesn't instantly conjure images of bodily harm every time a combatant hits another combatant, resulting in a loss of hit points. Given 4e's emphasis on cinematic action, I think Fate Points or Fatigue Points would be a better term.

Maybe in 5e.
TS

As long as you realize that this has applied to every edition. HP damage has never been taking 50 sword strikes directly to the head.
EVERY DAY IS HORRIBLE POST DAY ON THE D&D FORUMS. Everything makes me ANGRY (ESPECIALLY you, reader)
I find somewhat hilarius that you say it is ilogicall becouse real life humans do not heal at will, and as a proof you say you have played videogames and in those videogames people healed with rations, chickens and powerpacks

EVERY DAY IS HORRIBLE POST DAY ON THE D&D FORUMS. Everything makes me ANGRY (ESPECIALLY you, reader)