Battle Rager is SO Broken

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i think batle rager is completely broken at low level. BEHOLD BROKENESS

if you play dwarf with 20 con and 14 str . you take the stone bold feat. so you have resistance 7 to melee atack at level 1 ! at level 2 you have the utility that give you 7 regeneration on top of that. YOU CANOT DIE. At level 8 you with the other feat you have 10 Resist ! or Temporary Hitpoint same deal

With brash strike you do like 2 str damage + 2 from rager + 5 from con + your weapon damage + dwarven training 2 damage feat

So you do similar damage as a rogue That uses Sky flourish of your level but of course your AB is +- 15% less with brash strike compare to their sky flourish, but you cant die. not quite sure how fair this is

I am a big fan of High AC but who needs AC when you soak 7 AT level 2
if you play dwarf with 20 con and 14 str . you take the stone bold feat. so you have resistance 7 to melee atack at level 1 !

Where's this feat? I cannot find it neither in PHB nor in MP.

at level 2 you have the utility that give you 7 regeneration on top of that. YOU CANOT DIE.

You can. It's just way hard. And that's how that power is supposed to work (incidentally, it works only once per day).

At level 8 you with the other feat you have 10 Resist ! or Temporary Hitpoint same deal

What's "the other feat"?
Anyway, temporary hp is way worse than resistance.
What he has to be talking about is the Dwarf Stoneblood and it doesn't add resistance, it just adds 1/2 your dwarfs con mod to the temp hp gained by your Battlerager Vigor.
i think batle rager is completely broken at low level. BEHOLD BROKENESS

Agreed :thumbsdow

I just ran a test:

Weapon Talent Fighter (one-handed) vs. Battlerager Fighter (one-handed)
Feat: Dwarven Weapons Training vs. Dwarf Stoneblood
Attack: Cleave vs. Crushing Surge

Same stats and gear save armor:

Scale-Weapon Talent Fighter
Chain-Battlerager Fighter

Dwarf Fighter (Lvl 1) vs, 2 Kolbold Dragonshields (Lvl 2)
Heavy Shield, Warhammer

Str: 16
Con: 18
Dex: 11
Int: 8
Wis: 15
Cha: 10




Results:

Weapon Talent Fighter: After 6 rounds of combat he was dead having used his 2nd wind too. He had killed 1 kobold and the other kobold had 14 hp left.

The Battlerager: After 6 rounds, he had 20 temp hp and 31 of 33 hitpoints, and not used his 2nd wind. He had killed 1 kobold and the other kobold had 24 hp left.


I stopped there, because the whole thing got ridiculous, on one hand you had a dead fighter and the other a fighter standing invincible. Makes me wonder about WotC playtesting. Test it yourselves, it's broken to pieces. The Battlerager could having taken on probably 5 & 6 kobolds, b/c every time he got hit he gained +6 temp hp and the avg dmage of a Kolbold Dragonshield is about 6 damage, the only reasons the Battlerager couldn't take on infinite kobolds are criticals hits or a streak of higher than avg damage rolls for a lot of kobolds over many turns. I guess on the plus side, there is little necessity to go Demigod, pick any Epic destiny you want, u'll probably be ok.







McSmashin

I hope they plan an update soon. The stacking hitpoints is tooo powerful.
McSmashin
Where's this feat? I cannot find it either in PHB nor in MP.



You can. It's just way hard. And that's how that power is supposed to work (incidentally, it works only once per day).



What's "the other feat"?
Anyway, temporary hp is way worse than resistance.

Well they are in the new book. But page 133 of the Martial Power Book is the Dwarven Feat and The other feat is at page 136 its call Improve Vigor.

And no actualy for the most part since they stack, temporary HP is probably beter then resistance, But you can also have a armor with resistance, just to make sure your broken
I just ran a test:

Did you roll seperately for both tests, or were you using the same array of d20 rolls for both combats? Lucky rolls can make a huge difference in this sort of situation.

As far as overall power, they're great standalone Defenders. They don't necessarily play well with others, though. Temp HP from other sources don't stack, so most of the in-combat healing available from the party Warlord or a lot of the Paladin (and potentially Cleric, I've got less experience there) powers that bolster allies. He's also going to be competing with more of the party for armor if he's sticking to Chain, whereas the one-handed Fighter is alone at Scale.

I'll have to see it in an actual game situation before I declare broken. But that's my stance on pretty much everything.
Ummm, so whats to stop the enemies from ignoring you and going for the rest of your party? Your +to hit will be +4 with an axe/hammer or +5 with a sword. On a combat challenge you're probably going to miss your combat challenge or hit the enemy for 1W+2... not exactly a big deterrent.

The brash attack is nice though, however the rest of your attacks will suffer from the really low strength you have.

And you're pretty much invincible only until your DM throws Spell casters or ranged enemies at you I guess.... they'll happily shoot at point blank while you keep trying to swing at them :D
Did you roll seperately for both tests, or were you using the same array of d20 rolls for both combats? Lucky rolls can make a huge difference in this sort of situation.

Luck had nothing to do with it, unfortunately. I wanted Battlerager to work properly, but it just doesn't.

As far as overall power, they're great standalone Defenders. They don't necessarily play well with others, though.

They do stand alone, the whole party could died, and they could walk away fine.

Temp HP from other sources don't stack, so most of the in-combat healing available from the party Warlord or a lot of the Paladin (and potentially Cleric, I've got less experience there) powers that bolster allies. He's also going to be competing with more of the party for armor if he's sticking to Chain, whereas the one-handed Fighter is alone at Scale.

They don't need healing from anyone. Not having scale is not a problem, they don't take damage (at least at low level play). I could have done the same test with the Battlerager with without clothes. He would have still won. :thumbsdow

I'll have to see it in an actual game situation before I declare broken. But that's my stance on pretty much everything.

I agree with you, seeing is believing. Try the character I just made, I bet he won't die.


McSmashin.
McSmashin
They do stand alone, the whole party could died, and they could walk away fine.

They don't need healing from anyone. Not having scale is not a problem, they don't take damage (at least at low level play). I could have done the same test with the Battlerager with without clothes. He would have still won. :thumbsdow

I agree with you, seeing is believing. Try the character I just made, I bet he won't die.

McSmashin.

What if your solo Fighter met a bunch of kobold sharpshooters? The ranged attacks don't set off your damage reduction.

Think he'll pretty much die in that situation.
Luck had nothing to do with it, unfortunately. I wanted Battlerager to work properly, but it just doesn't.

So did you or didn't you roll both combats seperately? It's a pretty big deal, and I want to make sure we're on the same page.

They do stand alone, the whole party could died, and they could walk away fine.

... if they only fight two soldiers at once. Ranged enemies, spellcasters, anything that debuffs, etc owns them pretty hard. If you throw enemies that are right up their alley, sure they're going to rock. You can't expect that to always be the case, however.

They don't need healing from anyone. Not having scale is not a problem, they don't take damage (at least at low level play). I could have done the same test with the Battlerager with without clothes. He would have still won. :thumbsdow

Chain has a lower AC (by one point, but still), and a higher check penalty than Scale. You built both of them to optimize Battlerager, all the way down to the equipment. Try it with a Fighter who is actually taking advantage of access to better weapons and armor (Heavy Blades and Scale), and include applicable powers. A Battlerager may be able to stand there and tank all day, but if the other guy is a Greatsword Fighter who can drop one of the kobolds in two turns the dynamic changes.

Bottom line, one of the two builds is optimized to stand there and chip away at the Kobolds, the other isn't. Guess which one dominated the test?
Ummm, so whats to stop the enemies from ignoring you and going for the rest of your party? Your +to hit will be +4 with an axe/hammer or +5 with a sword. On a combat challenge you're probably going to miss your combat challenge or hit the enemy for 1W+2... not exactly a big deterrent.

The brash attack is nice though, however the rest of your attacks will suffer from the really low strength you have.

And you're pretty much invincible only until your DM throws Spell casters or ranged enemies at you I guess.... they'll happily shoot at point blank while you keep trying to swing at them :D

I agree, the enemy is likely to run around, making you a crappy defender.

And that range guys could hurt him, but melee guys make up 60% of the Monster Manual. If I change the test and used 2 Kobold Slingers (Lvl 1) he would probably win, but it would be tough, Gluepots suck :D, but he would still be better than the Weapon Talent Fighter, by far.

McSmashin
McSmashin
There are 2 paths you can go with the rager, one would be to replace the traditional "tank" totally and the other is to try to go maximum damage while still getting all the temp hp bonus. Both fit differently in a group and both are broken.

The tank archetype is the one mentionned above by Dom, you have 20 consti, 14 str. You can take dwarven weapon training at 1 or wait for lvl 2 and start with stone bold. Or you can forfeit DPS till lvl 4 totally since you are a "tank" and take plate. Remember that the only thing you don't get while in "plate" is the +2 damage with axe and hammer while you have temp hp.

So at lvl 1 in plate you would have +10 ac, or 20 and soak 5 damage each attack. You are immune to any lvl 4 or less minions by default pretty much and will nearly totally soak most attack by level 1-4 monsters.

You go with brash strike when you want to deal damage and with crushing surge when you "tank" a big monster. Brash strike with +7 bonus from stats will do more damage then any other tank built at this level it's not even close.

At lvl 2 you take Dwarf Stoneblood feat and your "soak" increase to 7. At lvl 4 you take dwarven weapon training and upgrade your 1-h to a crag hammer and your 2-h to a execution axe (or just use the craghammer 2-h for the +1 damage).

At lvl 4 you have 22 ac, hit for +6, +8 using brash strike and will hit for something like 15.5 average damage.
With an execution axe, you will have 20 ac, hit for +6, +8 with brash strike doing an average of 16.5 damage + high crit.

And at all time you absord 7 damage from each melee attack except the first one. Your crushing surges of 5 temp hp stack with the 7 from vigor.

At lvl 6 you can take the generic Improved Vigor and increase the temp hp from vigor to 8 and the one from crushing surges to 6.

I personnaly prefer the more aggro built but this was the more "standard" tank built that totally blow away any other tank built I've know of.

So the aggro built is 16 str, 18 constitution, dwarven weapon training lvl 1, dwarf stoneblood lvl 2, something else like improved vigor lvl 4.

You use an execution axe, at lvl 1 you will have +7 atk and will deal an average of 18.5 damage per hit. You have 16 ac at lvl 1 with chainmail and you soak 4 damage for each melee hit. At lvl 2 this increase to 6 per melee hit.

Either built seem broken imo. The party of 4 I DM has 1 paladin, 1 ranger, 1 rogue and 1 cleric. Any character except the cleric could probably easily be replaced by a fighter using this built for increase power. Even just one of those tank fighter in the party and I have to increase the power curve of every encounter I do or they risk behing trivial. Every elite has to hit harder or they are simply ignored by the tank. Or I have to cheese and do everything I can to ignore the tank. He still get to use his mark and other class features though.

Anyway this is the first time I read new material and I call broken. Swordmage, Barbarian, beast master, etc, seem ok or slightly on the good side maybe at times but most of the time it's eventually balanced.

I'm having advanced dnd 2nd edition flashback with the fighter handbook that pretty much broke the game for us at the time too.
the Battlerager gain temporary hit points AFTER hes hit right?

something like:

30hp battlerager (with 20con) just got struck by a Goblin Spear for 3 dmg
going to:
27hp +5temp hp
the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg
26hp +5temp hp

is this correct??
the Battlerager gain temporary hit points AFTER hes hit right?

something like:

30hp battlerager (with 20con) just got struck by a Goblin Spear for 3 dmg
going to:
27hp +5temp hp
the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg
26hp +5temp hp

is this correct??

Yeah, the defensive trigger isn't in time to stop the incoming damage from that attack. The temp HP gained from that ability also don't stack, so it kind of becomes an afterthought if you're using the Invigorating attacks.
So did you or didn't you roll both combats seperately? It's a pretty big deal, and I want to make sure we're on the same page.

No. I rolled them together: same attack rolls, damage rolls, same turn order, and both kobolds were adjacent the whole time, so cleave always worked.

... if they only fight two soldiers at once. Ranged enemies, spellcasters, anything that debuffs, etc owns them pretty hard. If you throw enemies that are right up their alley, sure they're going to rock. You can't expect that to always be the case, however.

I agree, it was a Melee contest. Ranged guys would be harder, but they would be less hard for the Battlerager than the Weapon Talent fighter, due to the temp hp. I used the melee contest because it illustrates the point the strongest of how vastly different in relative power they are.

Chain has a lower AC (by one point, but still), and a higher check penalty than Scale. You built both of them to optimize Battlerager, all the way down to the equipment. Try it with a Fighter who is actually taking advantage of access to better weapons and armor (Heavy Blades and Scale), and include applicable powers. A Battlerager may be able to stand there and tank all day, but if the other guy is a Greatsword Fighter who can drop one of the kobolds in two turns the dynamic changes.

I disgree. This is a case of new material trumps the old material. Before Martial Power this was about the most optimized Dwarven defender (PHB). Now, he looks like crap. The new material should expanded the options, but not dramatically increases the power of the characters in any aspect, without a nearly equal reduction of power another aspect.


I Like pie:

You can trade your 8" Apple Pie for a 8"-10" Pumpkin Pie, thats fair enough.
This is like trading an 8" Apple Pie for a 10 lb gold bar, no dice.

Bottom line, one of the two builds is optimized to stand there and chip away at the Kobolds, the other isn't. Guess which one dominated the test?

I agree with that. That's the problem, they are too good at it.

McSmashin
McSmashin
Yeah, the defensive trigger isn't in time to stop the incoming damage from that attack. The temp HP gained from that ability also don't stack, so it kind of becomes an afterthought if you're using the Invigorating attacks.

Brash Strike uses Con to hit?
Yeah, the defensive trigger isn't in time to stop the incoming damage from that attack. The temp HP gained from that ability also don't stack, so it kind of becomes an afterthought if you're using the Invigorating attacks.

Well yes and no. If the ennemies are hiting for pathetic damage you will "lose" temp hp but not if they do anything worth mentionning.

If I attack first with surge it's even worse. Let's say we always hit. So I hit the goblin, get 5 temp hp. He hit me, deals no damage and refresh my 5 temp hp. I hit again, this time they stack so I'm not at 10 temp hp. I get critical hit the next turn for max damage, say 12, I take 2 only and get back my 5 temp hp, etc.

If you don't find something like this retarded I'm not sure what kind of game you are playing. As a DM I've been a fan of minions in my games. Even the paladin with 20-21 ac can get in trouble when he's surrounded by 4-6 minions all flanking doing their 3-4 damage each hit. But no, not this battle rager who will simply ignore them negating an entire type of monster with 1 class feature.
No. I rolled them together: same attack rolls, damage rolls, same turn order, and both kobolds were adjacent the whole time, so cleave always worked.

Ok, that clears that up.

I agree, it was a Melee contest. Ranged guys would be harder, but they would be less hard for the Battlerager than the Weapon Talent fighter, due to the temp hp. I used the melee contest because it illustrates the point the strongest of how vastly different in relative power they are.

Without the attack powers to kickstart that temp HP engine, though, it wouldn't have provided more than a small shield every round rather than a huge pile of surplus hitpoints. His armor is also going to make it a little harder for him to get to the ranged enemies if he has to jump or climb to do so, and he's going to be getting hit a bit more often than the other guy.

It may be a wash in the end, but I don't see this one going to the Battlerager.

I agree with that. That's the problem, they are too good at it.

McSmashin

My point (which you either missed or are ignoring) is that a Fighter built to take out the first wave of enemies quickly would have had much more success at that little expiriment than the guy with the one handed weapon and no way of gaining temp HP. Even just bringing encounter powers into the mix greatly changes the way that whole thing plays out, skewing in favor of the non-Battlerager if every single power on the battlerager isn't invigorating. Now give the othe guy a two-handed sword and the right feats and he's dropping kobolds much faster and probably walking away from the fight in the end.

Your test was skewed towards the Battlerager (which performed admirably), and thus gave you skewed results.
Brash Strike uses Con to hit?

Does it?

Well yes and no. If the ennemies are hiting for pathetic damage you will "lose" temp hp but not if they do anything worth mentionning.

If I attack first with surge it's even worse. Let's say we always hit. So I hit the goblin, get 5 temp hp. He hit me, deals no damage and refresh my 5 temp hp. I hit again, this time they stack so I'm not at 10 temp hp. I get critical hit the next turn for max damage, say 12, I take 2 only and get back my 5 temp hp, etc.

If you don't find something like this retarded I'm not sure what kind of game you are playing. As a DM I've been a fan of minions in my games. Even the paladin with 20-21 ac can get in trouble when he's surrounded by 4-6 minions all flanking doing their 3-4 damage each hit. But no, not this battle rager who will simply ignore them negating an entire type of monster with 1 class feature.

This seems to be a problem with order of stacking. That 5 temp HP doesn't actually go towards your total unless you've got 0 temp when it hits, or you've got less than 5 in which case it resets to 5. The temp HP from Invigorating powers stack with all other temp HP, but that boost doesn't stack with itself. That basically means that you get it once a combat, and only if you get hit before you've built up a store of temp HP of 5 or more.

At least that's my impression from my readthrough. My book's at home, so I can't confirm right now.
Why don't you just post that fighter built that can easily take kobolts left and right?

Remember that with brash strike the battlerager will hit as much or more and do more damage then whatever built of existing fighters that exist. Unless there is one I don't know about?
The temp HP gained from that ability also don't stack, so it kind of becomes an afterthought if you're using the Invigorating attacks.

Battlerager Vigor, adds all temp hp together. So you get points when they hit you and you hit them.

the Battlerager gain temporary hit points AFTER hes hit right?

something like:

30hp battlerager (with 20con) just got struck by a Goblin Spear for 3 dmg
going to:
27hp +5temp hp
the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg
26hp +5temp hp

is this correct??

To continue your scenario (though 20 is a bit extreme, unless he's a Warforged: 16 Str, 20 Con, but its ok for agrument.)
Also, lets keep saying the Goblin goes twice, for what ever reason.

Yes, now it is your turn. You hit, 7 damage and you get 5 temp
so: 26hp +10temp hp

Goblin hits again:Spear for 3 dmg
going to:
26hp +12temp hp
the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg
26hp +11temp hp

Your turn again. You hit, 6 damage and you get 5 temp
so: 26hp +16temp hp

Goblin hits again:Spear for 3 dmg
going to:
26hp +18temp hp
the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg
26hp +16temp hp

And so on...


Once this guy gets movin' he is the juggernaut of temp hp, gaining infinite momentum over his enemies. The guy's been hit 6 times for 27 damage and lost only 4 hp and gained 16 temp hp. Sorry, that's broken.

McSmashin
McSmashin
Why don't you just post that fighter built that can easily take kobolts left and right?

Remember that with brash strike the battlerager will hit as much or more and do more damage then whatever built of existing fighters that exist. Unless there is one I don't know about?

Because I'm not anywhere near my books right now. My guess is that it would be a two-handed heavy blade build.

Battlerager Vigor, adds all temp hp together. So you get points when they hit you and you hit them.

Does it add all temp HP, or does it just cause the Invigorating temp HP to stack with what's already there? Because that's a big chunk of what is being counted as temp HP right now, the ones from taking the hit.

Edit: It strikes me that even if the temp HP from taking a hit stack, the easiest way to fix this is to have those HP only trigger when you take actual damage, not damage to your temp HP. That way you're not getting 8+ temp HP a turn after the first unless you're taking enough damage for them to chop through it in the first place.
Battlerager Vigor, adds all temp hp together. So you get points when they hit you and you hit them.

No, it doesn't. It lets temporary hit points from Invigorating powers stack. So the temps you get from hitting other people stack with each other and everything else. The ones you get from BEING hit are a seperate power, and are not Invigorating, so they do not stack up more than once.
No, it doesn't. It lets temporary hit points from Invigorating powers stack. So the temps you get from hitting other people stack with each other and everything else. The ones you get from BEING hit are a seperate power, and are not Invigorating, so they do not stack up more than once.

That's what I thought. Much less crazy that way.
My point (which you either missed or are ignoring) is that a Fighter built to take out the first wave of enemies quickly would have had much more success at that little expiriment than the guy with the one handed weapon and no way of gaining temp HP.

Yes, a Fighter built to take out the first wave of enemies quickly would have had much more success, the Tempest Fighter is heavier damager, a Two Hander is Heavier Damager, But thats not apples to apples.

I don't care about 2-handed fighters or wantabe rangers, dude. Just the heavy defender :fight!: of PHB vs. MP. Make an Excel Spreadsheet on the contest and then tell me the results. Use the best high defensive build of PHB, and compare with MP. That's where your arguement breaks down.

McSmashin
McSmashin
Does it?


This seems to be a problem with order of stacking. That 5 temp HP doesn't actually go towards your total unless you've got 0 temp when it hits, or you've got less than 5 in which case it resets to 5. The temp HP from Invigorating powers stack with all other temp HP, but that boost doesn't stack with itself. That basically means that you get it once a combat, and only if you get hit before you've built up a store of temp HP of 5 or more.

At least that's my impression from my readthrough. My book's at home, so I can't confirm right now.

I'm not sure I follow you there.

The way I understand this is that once you have vigor any temp hp gained with the invigorating keyword will stack. Other source will not stack and only replace the total if the new one is higher then the old one.

Example, I attack with surge, gain 5 temp hp. I attack again, gain 5 more, up to 10. Then I get hit for 3 damage, triggering vigor. Since I have 7 temp hp left vigor does nothing. I get hit again for 3 more damage and only have 4 temp hp remaining,vigor give me 5 which is higher then 4 so I get back to 4 total.

That's my understanding at least.
No, it doesn't. It lets temporary hit points from Invigorating powers stack. So the temps you get from hitting other people stack with each other and everything else. The ones you get from BEING hit are a seperate power, and are not Invigorating, so they do not stack up more than once.

Ok. if thats so, I'll re-evalaute it. Please depict a combat scenario using the rules properly for several turns.

Thanks :D

McSmashin.

I would like Battlerager to work. Hopefully it does only mitigate a small amount of damage. Then I'll be a fan.
McSmashin
How well does it scale though? Broken at level 1 it seems to be, but at level 5, do minions still do damage less than the con bonus you have?
Battlerager Vigor, adds all temp hp together. So you get points when they hit you and you hit them.

Incorrect, the ability is very clear that invigorating attacks stack on top of it, but there is no mention of it stacking with itself, with invigorating attacks, or with any other form of temp hp. Thus the only stacking you get to do is if your battlerage vigor is set off before you make any invigorating attacks. After that point it only comes into play again if your temp HPs fall below the value that you get from your battlerage vigor, at which point you can be reset back to that base value, and try to raise it again from there with invigorating attacks.


The battlerage vigor feature is extremely nice at low levels (your test could have been more 1 sided if you made it against 80 bajillion low level melee only minions), but the battlerage vigor fighter is going to have the lowest attack values (no +1 to hit, and his abilities focus on low proficiecy bonus weapons) and he'll have the lowest base AC out of any of the fighter options.
I'm not sure I follow you there.

The way I understand this is that once you have vigor any temp hp gained with the invigorating keyword will stack. Other source will not stack and only replace the total if the new one is higher then the old one.

Example, I attack with surge, gain 5 temp hp. I attack again, gain 5 more, up to 10. Then I get hit for 3 damage, triggering vigor. Since I have 7 temp hp left vigor does nothing. I get hit again for 3 more damage and only have 4 temp hp remaining,vigor give me 5 which is higher then 4 so I get back to 4 total.

That's my understanding at least.

Sort of, but not quite. Invigorating HPs will stack with everything, no matter what order you get them in. Basically you have to track Invig Temps seperately.

So you hit with surge, get 5.
You hit with surge again, get another 5, up to 10.
You get hit for 3, triggering Vigor. You have 7 temps, and you get 5 temps, because they stack with Invig Temps. So now you have 12 (7 stacking and 5 normal).
Then you get hit again, for 2 damage. 2 of your temps go away, leaving you with 7 stacking and 3 regular. Then you get 5 regular ones, which overwrite your 3 and you're back to 12 total (7 stacking and 5 regular).
I'm not sure I follow you there.

The way I understand this is that once you have vigor any temp hp gained with the invigorating keyword will stack. Other source will not stack and only replace the total if the new one is higher then the old one.

Example, I attack with surge, gain 5 temp hp. I attack again, gain 5 more, up to 10. Then I get hit for 3 damage, triggering vigor. Since I have 7 temp hp left vigor does nothing. I get hit again for 3 more damage and only have 4 temp hp remaining,vigor give me 5 which is higher then 4 so I get back to 4 total.

That's my understanding at least.

That's my understanding as well (and others are jumping in with confirmation).

It's not the way the ability was handled for the example above, though. So it's not represented in the "findings."
Battlerager Vigor, adds all temp hp together. So you get points when they hit you and you hit them.


To continue your scenario (though 20 is a bit extreme, unless he's a Warforged: 16 Str, 20 Con, but its ok for agrument.)
Also, lets keep saying the Goblin goes twice, for what ever reason.

Yes, now it is your turn. You hit, 7 damage and you get 5 temp
so: 26hp +10temp hp

Goblin hits again:Spear for 3 dmg
going to:
26hp +12temp hp
the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg
26hp +11temp hp

Your turn again. You hit, 6 damage and you get 5 temp
so: 26hp +16temp hp

Goblin hits again:Spear for 3 dmg
going to:
26hp +18temp hp
the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg
26hp +16temp hp

And so on...

Once this guy gets movin' he is the juggernaut of temp hp, gaining infinite momentum over his enemies. The guy's been hit 6 times for 27 damage and lost only 4 hp and gained 16 temp hp. Sorry, that's broken.

McSmashin

Only Invigorating temporary hit points stack.

something like:

30hp battlerager (with 20con) just got struck by a Goblin Spear for 6 dmg
going to:
24hp +5temp hp
the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg
23hp +5temp hp

Yes, now it is your turn. You hit, 7 damage and you get 5 temp
so: 23hp +10temp hp

Goblin hits again:Spear for 6 dmg
going to:
23hp +4temp hp
the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg
21hp

Your turn again. You hit, 6 damage and you get 5 temp
so: 21hp +5temp hp

Goblin hits again:Spear for 6 dmg
going to:
20hp
the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg
14hp +5temp hp

And so on...

* I may have messed some of this up, I'm in a hurry.
Sort of, but not quite. Invigorating HPs will stack with everything, no matter what order you get them in. Basically you have to track Invig Temps seperately.

So you hit with surge, get 5.
You hit with surge again, get another 5, up to 10.
You get hit for 3, triggering Vigor. You have 7 temps, and you get 5 temps, because they stack with Invig Temps. So now you have 12 (7 stacking and 5 normal).
Then you get hit again, for 2 damage. 2 of your temps go away, leaving you with 7 stacking and 3 regular. Then you get 5 regular ones, which overwrite your 3 and you're back to 12 total (7 stacking and 5 regular).

Temporary HP is Temporary HP, there's not "stacking hp" and "not stacking" hp

invigorating powers let you stack THOSE temporary hit points to your TOTAL temporary hit points:

like this:
first you have 0 temporary hit points
So you hit with surge, get 5 T.hp
You hit with surge again, get 5 T.hp (which stack with your existing T.hp due to invigorating)
You get hit for 3dmg, now your T.hp is at 7, it triggers Vigor. You have 7 temps, and you gain 5 T.hp, but those extra 5 aren't stackers, so you'll continue with your total 7 T.hp.
you get hit AGAIN, this time for 6 dmg, your T.hp is lowered to 1, it triggers Vigor. you have 1 temp, and you gain 5 T.hp, but those extra 5 aren't stackers, but their bigger than 1, so your T.hp is now at 5 again.
you hit with surge, gain 5 T.hp, those ARE stackers, so your T.hp is now at 10.
Sort of, but not quite. Invigorating HPs will stack with everything, no matter what order you get them in. Basically you have to track Invig Temps seperately.

So you hit with surge, get 5.
You hit with surge again, get another 5, up to 10.
You get hit for 3, triggering Vigor. You have 7 temps, and you get 5 temps, because they stack with Invig Temps. So now you have 12 (7 stacking and 5 normal).
Then you get hit again, for 2 damage. 2 of your temps go away, leaving you with 7 stacking and 3 regular. Then you get 5 regular ones, which overwrite your 3 and you're back to 12 total (7 stacking and 5 regular).

I don't think you're right, Seraphim. I can see how the text might make you think that way, but if that was RAI, I think they would've included rules on which stack of temp HP gets depleted first.

It says that Invigorating THP stacks with THP "you already have"; It does not say it stacks with any THP afterwards. I think after you add it to your total, it becomes regular THP.
The problem is not with Battle Rager class feature. The problem is with broken dwarven racial feat. Dwarf feats let's you gain to many temp HP, in addition to the extra con you get for being dwarf in the first place.

Exculding dwarf this class feature alows more resilient defender in exchange for the huge damage and OA benefits wisdom fighter gets.
How well does it scale though? Broken at level 1 it seems to be, but at level 5, do minions still do damage less than the con bonus you have?

this is what is scary !

At level 8 your still broken as with a start of 20 con you now soak 10 damage.

And at level 30 you gain 18 temp Hp when you get hit, it is still good, although not comparable to how strong you are at low level
I don't think you're right, Seraphim. I can see how the text might make you think that way, but if that was RAI, I think they would've included rules on which stack of temp HP gets depleted first.

It says that Invigorating THP stacks with THP "you already have"; It does not say it stacks with any THP afterwards. I think after you add it to your total, it becomes regular THP.

Hmm, that's a good point. The text says "when you gain temporary hit points...with the invigorating keyword....stack with temporary hit points you already have." That does seem to mean that Invig hps can stack when they come in after, but not the other way around. That's not how I initially read it at all.

ok, I officially change my post from earlier.

However, that makes it even LESS broken than I thought it was, so that's ok by me.
Hmm, that's a good point. The text says "when you gain temporary hit points...with the invigorating keyword....stack with temporary hit points you already have." That does seem to mean that Invig hps can stack when they come in after, but not the other way around. That's not how I initially read it at all.

ok, I officially change my post from earlier.

However, that makes it even LESS broken than I thought it was, so that's ok by me.

It also makes the changes a lot less mindboggling to track, which was my primary dig against the class when I thought it worked that way.

I'd still like some official clarification, but it's pretty obvious that this isn't anywhere near as broken as originally advertised.
Brash Strike uses Con to hit?

No, but its Str+2 vs AC. Damage is 1W+S; you're using an axe, hammer, or mace, you add your ConMod to damage, so 1W+S+C. pretty sick. Then you give the target CA until the start of your turn (so you pay for your +2 by giving him +2. If he already has CA, like from Polearm Gamble, no loss).

Crushing Surge is Str vs AC, damage is 1W+S; because its Invigorating, you also gain THP = ConMod. Because you have Battlerage Vigor, they stack with any other THP you have.

Battlerage Vigor:
-Each time an enemy hits you with a melee or close attack, you gain THP = ConMod (after attack).
-When you gain THP by hitting with an Invigorating attack, these THP stack with those THP you already have from another source.
-When wearing light armour/chain and you have THP, you get +2 damage with axe, hammer, mace, or pick (+1 with other weapons)

First feat discussed above is Dwarf Stoneblood. "add one-half your Constitution modifier to the temporary hit points granted by your Battlerage Vigor." There are 2 possible interpretations:

1) It only adds to the THP gained when you get hit by an enemy.
2) It adds to the THP gained when you get hit; also, it adds to the stacked THP Invigorating attacks give you (because normally THP override each other).

assuming interpretation 1, using a dwarf with Str 14 and Con 20 (35 hp). AC 18 w/ chain, heavy shield, and warhammer. something like this happens:

Kobolds will flank and have extra +1 hit from mob attack. +10 vs AC 18 = 60% hit rate for avg of 6.5 damage.

umm... when he gets hit, he gets 7 THP. BAD EXAMPLE!! No wonder he wins. With that kinda extra THP, almost impossible to damage him after the first round of combat, esp if he hits with Crushing Surge.

So, lets go with a more balanced dwarf (Str 16, Con 18, 33 hp, same gear) vs 2 goblin blackblades. Flanking, they'll be +7 hit for 2d6+2 damage (+5 and 1d6+2 without CA). +7 vs AC 18 = 45% hit rate for avg 9 dmg (35% hit rate and 5.5 damage without).

Dwarf has +5 hit with Crushing and +7 hit with Brash. vs AC 16, thats 45% (8.5 dmg +4 THP) and 55% hit rate (12.5 dmg). Gobbos, with better initiative both go first.

OK, this is pretty rediculous too, but we'll still go with it. I'll also use 'stupid' %, so that when they = 100%, they hit.

Example 1, dwarf uses Brash Strike.
First round, everyone misses (Gob = 45%, dwarf = 55%).
Round 2, both gobbos miss (90%); dwarf hits gobbo 1 for 12.5 with Brash strike (110%).

Round 3, dwarf gets hit by gobbo 1 (24 hp + 6 THP), then gets hit by second gobbo (21 hp + 6 THP) (135%). Dwarf misses (165%)

Round 4, both gobbos miss (180%), Dwarf its gobbo 1 again, killing it (220%).

Round 5. gobbo 2 still has CA (due to Brash strike) and hits (235%) for 9. Dwarf now has 18 hp + 6 THP.

Dwarf changes to Crushing Surge and gobbo 2 won't be able to get through his THP. Or, he can stay at it and kill the gobbo with Brash Strike by round 8 (in which case, gobbo will hit 1 more time, bringing dwarf to (15+6 THP). [you see where this goes]

Alternately, just using Crushing Surge, it looks like this:

rounds 1 and 2, all misses (90%/90%)

Round 3, both gobbos hit (24 hp + 6 THP) then (21 hp + 6 THP). Dwarf hits gobbo 1 for 8.5 + 4 THP (21 hp + 10 THP) (135%/135%)

round 4, all miss (180%)

round 5, gobbo 1 hits, reducing to 1 THP, but gets 6 back (21 hp + 6 THP), gobbo 2 hits (18 hp + 6 THP). Dwarf hits gobbo 1 (18 hp + 10 THP). (235%)

round 6, all miss (270%)

round 7 all hit. similar to round 5, gobbo 1 reduces THP to 1 and refills back to (18+6 THP), gobbo 2 hits (15+6 THP). Dwarf hits and kills gobbo 1, bringing his hp to (15+10 THP). (315%/315%). Gobbo 2 now has only 35% hit and 5.5 damage.

Round 8, both miss (350 gobbo/360 dwarf)

round 9, gobbo misses (385%), dwarf hits (405%). Gobbo 2 takes 8.5 and dwarf now has (15 hp + 14 THP).

round 10, gobbo hits (420%), putting dwarf to (15+8.5 THP). Dwarf misses (450%)

Round 11, both miss (455% vs 495%).

Round 12, gobbo misses (490%), Dwarf hits (540%); gobbo at 8 hp, dwarf at (15 hp + 12.5 THP).

Dwarf kills gobbo on round 14

not entirely realistic, but on law of averages. Realistically though, set up like this gives the gobbos the BEST chance of killing the dwarf. normally, they both wouldn't hit in the same round and the dwarf would have been able to set up more of a hp buffer. Of course, this also doesn't factor crits either, but same general idea. In both examples, Dwarf ended with 15 hp, and not spending his second wind.

Having the dwarf start with 14 Str and 20 Con is a BAD IDEA. with only +4 hit, he'll have a REALLY hard time hitting anything, especially at higher level.
Sort of, but not quite. Invigorating HPs will stack with everything, no matter what order you get them in. Basically you have to track Invig Temps seperately.

So you hit with surge, get 5.
You hit with surge again, get another 5, up to 10.
You get hit for 3, triggering Vigor. You have 7 temps, and you get 5 temps, because they stack with Invig Temps. So now you have 12 (7 stacking and 5 normal).
Then you get hit again, for 2 damage. 2 of your temps go away, leaving you with 7 stacking and 3 regular. Then you get 5 regular ones, which overwrite your 3 and you're back to 12 total (7 stacking and 5 regular).

Two things: why not call the regular temp hp from Vigor: Temporary Damage Resistance, so you don't confuse the temp hp for temp hp? since now there are two type of temp hps.

Second, how bout, change the dwarf feat to paragon, and Invig Keyword gives 1/2 your Con, until Paragon, to help balance it at low level play? (b/c the power seems more balanced at Paragon/Epic)



McSmashin
McSmashin
Well the thing about the 14 str and 20 con VS 16 str and 18 Con is that during your whole career you to hit will be a aditional 5%, Your Brash strike damage will be same and all your other power will have -1 damage. But you will soak 1-2 less and leach less

It is a debatable choice. Obviously at level 1 the 1 to soak trumps everything in my book

I certainly dont think this build is broken at level 30. And I would not consider it in a high level campain, but At low level it s retarded