Is 4E the most magic item dependent system?

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Every 4E PC should always have a full arsenal of magic items, which should be reviewed and upgraded on a regular basis.

At 4th level, every party should have someone who can enchant magic items.

By 4th level, they should have 1 2nd level magic item, 2 3rd level items, 3 4th level items, 3 5th level items, 2 6th level items, and a 7th level item. (12 total)

They will also have gained around 3000 gp in monetary treasure. This can be used to purchase 8 more +1 items.

Each member of the party of 5 4th level characters will therefore have 3 possibly 4 or 5 magic items.

I don't remember ever getting that many magic items in other editions of DnD.

Is 4E more dependent on magic items than previous editions?

Is this to make up for the fact that monsters gain +1/level for attacks and defenses while PCs only gain +0.5/level?

Does this foster dependence on magic items for survival?

Wouldn't that mean that an NPC character would be gimped against NPC monsters if it didn't have a similarly impressive set of magic items?
If I were to create a campaign with very few magic items, would it be best to provide lower level monsters for combat or to modify PC stats to account for the loss.

Lower level monsters would cause a slower level progression which might create boredom.

Modifying PC stats might have other unforeseen effects.
3.5 was much mopre magic-item dependant as compared to 4E. Removing the "christmas tree effect" from the players was one of the stated goals of 4E.

As for modifying a campaign for a low-magic campaign, look in the DMG section for modifying monsters. IIRC, it has a couple of paragraphs on how magic items work their way into a monsters stats as you go up the levels.
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
If you want a low item campaign - your fine.

The system is balanced around the idea of each character having certain bonuses in a few areas - attack and damage rolls, and defenses.

Everything else, including special powers granted by weapons and armor, is gravy - not necessary, but nice to have.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

Fascinating breakdown of how the magic item machine works here.

Of course, this is assuming they go up 1 level every module. I'm not sure how it is for everyone else, but, I find it quite possible for a character to 'miss' a level every once in a while, especially at low levels. It might be more fair to say they have 16 magic items at 4th level. I haven't played enough to say its 'dependent', but that seems likely past the first few levels.


DnD4.0 is definitely a more magic item heavy system than Dungeons and Dragons; I don't know enough about other tabletop RPGs to know how others work.

I suspect it is, but that's only because in other/previous tabletop games, each magic item needs to be created individually by the designer/writer/GM...making all that phat lewt is time-consuming.

On the other hand, PC/online RPGs usually have some sort of magic item generator, first used particularly well by Diablo, making it very easy, hence necessary, for players to get a plethora of magic items.

I'm not convinced having a much greater influx of magic items in DnD4.0 as opposed to other games is necessarily bad, especially in a system where many of the wizards (or classes) have difficulty differentiating themselves much. Nothing wrong with "dress up", and I've spent more than my fair share of time at the computer, finding the best beating stick and skin protection I can for my toon.
As stated above, you are wrong on this account. You need far less items.

Wrong...I never used the word 'need', and indicated I wasn't even sure it was 'dependent'.

Your house rule might work, although I'm not sure the original poster was talking about house rules. Or is that rule you said somewhere in the DMG? Apologies, I'm not yet that familiar with the book.
Please, do not insult other posters in the course of your discussions. There is no need for parting jabs.
One of 4e's goals was to eliminate the glut of needed magical gear. In that goal, it failed. You are expected to have certain gear by certain levels - just like 3e. Hell, every item is even labeled with what level a character should get it at. It's just as important now as it ever was. Instead of needing a +Str or +Int item, you need a +At item since this is the only way to raise your to-hit chance. Pretty important, if you ask me. So they consolidated a tiny bit and shifted focus slightly. The end result is still the same: You need magical gear to survive this game.

All this talk about simply adding modifiers to the characters and dropping items is all well and good. But it must be remembered that this could also be done in 3e and, in fact, was done by groups willing to houserule it into their games. Officially sanctioned rules do not somehow mean it's more possible in 4e than 3e to drop magic items from the game.

I hate edition wars. Honest. And I have no problem with 4e or 3e myself. But I can't stand this stuff. One person makes a thread with a negative point about 4e and the result is exaggerated rebuttal. Be honest. This game sees it's characters just as item dependant as 3e did. The way it's done may have changed, but it's still there. You may need different items in 4e than you did in 3e, but you still need them. Ever wonder why there are now Implements for Wizards and Holy Symbols are now more than a symbol? Cuz you can't upgrade your Int and Wis with an item any longer so you need some form of attack bonus. That should be pretty easily seen evidence that nothing - as far as magic items are concerned - has really changed. Disagree all you want, but do it honestly and without agenda.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Most Magic Dependent system? Not so long as 3.5 exists. Lets compare what the systems expected:

4th - Weapon, Armor, Cloak

3rd - Weapon, Armor, Natural Armor, Cloak, Stat boosters, skill boosters, (high levels only) Wishes. Add two dozen utilty items if you weren't a caster to deal with flying, incorporeal, crit immune and high DR foes as well as to protect from insta death, mind control and level drain.

2nd - Weapon (Melee classes only), Armor (or bracers for the cloth types), Cloak/Ring (Wizards and maybe rogues)

Now lets compare what's required to remove all magic items:

4th - Give fixed bonus at the levels that item bonus jump. Done.

3rd - Can't be done. AC, stat and + attack bonuses might be doable but expected countermeasures can't be copied.

2nd - Possible if a little lame. You'd have to guess a bit.

Yeah 3.X wins on item dependance. There's a reason the term 'detects as strong adventurer' popped up round these parts when Det Mag got tossed about.

(Edit: 2nd probably could really have used all the protection from horrible instant death items but they were fairly rare back then, as opposed to assumed adventuring gear. Such is life.)
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
Which is far less in my expirience than 3.5, where you had to have Statboosters to stay competetive, amongst other things.

Statboosters in 3.5 was certainly lame. Wizards made a great choice here.

But if every player has a magic weapon, magic armor, and magic neck item to match their level, isn't that just as lame?

Seems redundant to a system when these items are basically required.
From what I have seen 4E has a great number of items awarded... because honestly, who doesn't like a shiny new toy? The items themselves however, are exceedingly weak compared to previous versions of the game.

Weapons (or implement), armor, and necklace are the core of your magic power. The vast majority of the other items are neat, but they will not make or break your character like they did in 3.X.

In 3.X without stat bumps and all the other little extras you got from your items, you were likely to fall behind the curve. Doubly so if the other characters in your game had those items. In 4E that is no longer the case. You need your holy trinity of items (Weapon/implement, armor and necklace) and the rest of the things you choose are just icing on the cake. Yeah, you might get a couple of neat little extras and cool perks... but nothing that will likely over or underpower you.

Purely IMO of course.

Magic item dependent? No. Magic item prolific. Certainly. And I think they did a good job with balance. The items offer enough abilities and just plain neat stuff that you want them while at the same time you will not be gimped if you do not have all the shiny toys.
One of 4e's goals was to eliminate the glut of needed magical gear. In that goal, it failed.

I hate edition wars.

I actually didn't intend to make this an edition war.

I actually want the simplist and most streamlined edition possible.

I want an edition where rules don't interfere with game play. Mechanics run easily. Math is calculated quickly and doesn't detract from the game itself.

I was just trying to figure out how well the later editions have accomplished this.

Much of the magical gear still seems unnecessary for real gameplay. Seems like the same accounting rather than smoother gameplay.

I hope Wizards can fix this further in 5.0.
One of 4e's goals was to eliminate the glut of needed magical gear. In that goal, it failed. You are expected to have certain gear by certain levels - just like 3e. Hell, every item is even labeled with what level a character should get it at. It's just as important now as it ever was. Instead of needing a +Str or +Int item, you need a +At item since this is the only way to raise your to-hit chance. Pretty important, if you ask me. So they consolidated a tiny bit and shifted focus slightly. The end result is still the same: You need magical gear to survive this game.

No-one has said that you no longer need magical items in 4E as compared to 3.5. Infact, as far as I can tell, everyone has said that you need fewer magical items in 4E than 3.5. I am not sure how you got from there to people saying "4E doesn't need any magical items."
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
Is 4E the most magic item dependent system?

Sure, the same way tanks are economy vehicles.
Color me flattered.

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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

You may need less items, but you are still dependant upon them. Try playing without that +5 sword, staff or symbol, +5 armor and +5 cloak and see how it works out. You need these items just like you needed items in 3e. Needing less items does not make you less dependant on items, it just makes you dependant on less items. ;)
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

I'm not so convinced it was quite as necessary in Dungeons and Dragons. Keep in mind, everyone already says the 3.0/3.5, for example, was WAY too easy for spellcasters...perhaps it was because there were too many magic items in those campaigns.

In my campaigns, magic items weren't ridiculously common, it wasn't a sure thing that, say, my level 5 characters would necessarily have more than a +1 sword or armor, and the wizards likewise weren't walking libraries of scrolls. Granted, I'm told that the 'raw materials' for making magic items were supposed to be quite common, and that I was 'unduly harsh' for not assuming every blacksmith had the 8lbs of adamantine laying around to make whatever trinked the mage felt like that day, but I don't think folks understand how 'raw materials' were not to be taken for granted in pre-industrial societies (steel was worth more than its weight in gold for much of the last 5,000 years, and even 19th century American settlers didn't buy steel axes, since it was so scarce...the axes had steel bits, the rest were iron and wood).

Anyway, despite this, my parties had little difficulty stomping things about their level/CR, and the rules didn't mandate what went into an encounter, and it never occurred to anyone that the game was far too easy.

On the other hand, DnD4.0 has very precise rules about encounters and monsters...if a lvl20 monster should have an Armor defense of (whatever), and level 20 fighter has an attack bonus of (whatever -15), then it seems like a case could be made for 'dependence', otherwise the fighter will be pretty feeble against that monster. Apologies for being a little vague here.

Not that it matters, mind you...in the most popular RPGs today (i.e., online games), magic items are necessary, and I don't even have a tiny problem with WotC modeling a highly successful idea.
Remember, a PC generated at a high level in 4E has 3 items, and enough gold for 1 to 3 more items of nearly the same level. In my last high level 3.5 campaign, one of the PCs had:

Endless Quiver of Arrows (Quiver of Elhonna, I think?)
Magic Bow
Magic Great Sword
Magic Armor
Gloves of dex +6
Belt of Giant Strength +6
Some form of Ioun Stone
Bracers of Archery
Ring of Protection
Amulet of Protection
One of the stat increasing books
Cloak of Resistance
...

And probably some more I'm forgetting. Of those, the gloves, belt, bow, greatsword, armor, ring, amulet, and cloak are all things that I would call necessities for that high level character's survival. That's 8 items. A 4E character really only needs a weapon, armor, and neck slot to be balanced.

Also, the original post makes a few poor assumptions. Chances are, a 4th level party has already discarded a low level item or two, and likely wouldn't want to spend money on 8 level 1 items. It's true that they could, but it's no more likely than a 3rd level 3.5 PC buying 54 Universal Solvents with their 2,700gp starting gold.

3.5 puts more focus on consumables like scrolls, wands, and potions at low levels, so while a low level 4E character may have a few more magic items than a low level 3.5 character, a high level 4E character probably has far, far fewer items than a high level 3.5 character.
Every 4E PC should always have a full arsenal of magic items, which should be reviewed and upgraded on a regular basis.

At 4th level, every party should have someone who can enchant magic items.

By 4th level, they should have 1 2nd level magic item, 2 3rd level items, 3 4th level items, 3 5th level items, 2 6th level items, and a 7th level item. (12 total)

They will also have gained around 3000 gp in monetary treasure. This can be used to purchase 8 more +1 items.

Each member of the party of 5 4th level characters will therefore have 3 possibly 4 or 5 magic items.

I don't remember ever getting that many magic items in other editions of DnD.

Is 4E more dependent on magic items than previous editions?

Is this to make up for the fact that monsters gain +1/level for attacks and defenses while PCs only gain +0.5/level?

Does this foster dependence on magic items for survival?

Wouldn't that mean that an NPC character would be gimped against NPC monsters if it didn't have a similarly impressive set of magic items?

4ed is far more magic item dependant than 3ed was. In 3ed, I have played both heavy magic and light magic games where we did well. In 4ed, a +1 can mean the difference between success and failure, so if you don't have that +5 item when the game says you need it, you are out of luck completely.
In 4E it is expected that you have: Either a magical weapon or implement, a magical armor and maybe an neck slot item.

That's all that is mostly "required"

Which is far less in my expirience than 3.5, where you had to have Statboosters to stay competetive, amongst other things.

You don't need a single stat booster in 3ed in order to be competitive. They made the game easier, but it was hardly difficult without them. A fighter needed a +1 weapon for the vast majority of DR creatures, but that was really it. Pretty much all magic items were gravy in 3ed.
Again, I think they succeeded by a good margin with reduction of magic items.

Not sure they reduced the items though. 15-20 magic items in a party at 4th level is not a reduction.

A 3E party might have 5-8 magic items (not including single use) at 4th level.

Possibly they reduced the disparity that could be caused by magic items.

4E still seems to have the greatest number of magic items per level. It might not be the most dependent though.
You may need less items, but you are still dependant upon them. Try playing without that +5 sword, staff or symbol, +5 armor and +5 cloak and see how it works out. You need these items just like you needed items in 3e. Needing less items does not make you less dependant on items, it just makes you dependant on less items. ;)

But the books come with instructions as to what to do to remove magic items from the game entirely - so even though you need those bonuses: you don't need to get them from items.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

One of 4e's goals was to eliminate the glut of needed magical gear. In that goal, it failed. You are expected to have certain gear by certain levels - just like 3e.

Yep. The only thing is, if you don't have the gear in 3ed, you can still do well. In 4ed, if you don't have the items, you've lost.
No-one has said that you no longer need magical items in 4E as compared to 3.5. Infact, as far as I can tell, everyone has said that you need fewer magical items in 4E than 3.5. I am not sure how you got from there to people saying "4E doesn't need any magical items."

Alright. You said:

3.5 was much more magic-item dependant as compared to 4E.

Which is what I have a problem with. I may, admittedly, have gone a little bit nutty with my post, though. :embarrass Still, this is simply untrue. You may be dependant on less items in 4e, but you are just as dependant upon magic items in 4e as you ever were. You were no more dependant on magic gear in 3e than now. If you don't have your wep/imp/sym, armor and cloak, you're fragged. If you would have stated that you need less gear in 4e, then I certainly would have pulled that sentiment out of nowhere. As you did not and opened with the quoted statement, I geared part of my reply to that. And then I started gettin' preachy. Which I tend to do as the day gets older....

In short, needing less items overall != being less item dependant. You still need 'em just as badly and talking about needing less does not address the question of magic item dependance. If you still need gear you still depend on it.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Jeebus, that's some high level play. I don't think I ever gave out anything better than +5 battle axe/artifact...with lowered plusses, that's about what a party of six had around 10th level in my campaign.

Maybe it's just there are more items at low level? That seems more likely. My higher level dungeons would have more than 4 items, while my lower level ones might only have 1 or two.

Eh, just gotta play a whole campaign in DnD4.0 and see for myself.


Remember, a PC generated at a high level in 4E has 3 items, and enough gold for 1 to 3 more items of nearly the same level. In my last high level 3.5 campaign, one of the PCs had:

Endless Quiver of Arrows (Quiver of Elhonna, I think?)
Magic Bow
Magic Great Sword
Magic Armor
Gloves of dex +6
Belt of Giant Strength +6
Some form of Ioun Stone
Bracers of Archery
Ring of Protection
Amulet of Protection
One of the stat increasing books
Cloak of Resistance
...



Also, the original post makes a few poor assumptions. Chances are, a 4th level party has already discarded a low level item or two, and likely wouldn't want to spend money on 8 level 1 items. It's true that they could, but it's no more likely than a 3rd level 3.5 PC buying 54 Universal Solvents with their 2,700gp starting gold.
.

Remember, a PC generated at a high level in 4E has 3 items, and enough gold for 1 to 3 more items of nearly the same level. In my last high level 3.5 campaign, one of the PCs had:

Endless Quiver of Arrows (Quiver of Elhonna, I think?)
Magic Bow
Magic Great Sword
Magic Armor
Gloves of dex +6
Belt of Giant Strength +6
Some form of Ioun Stone
Bracers of Archery
Ring of Protection
Amulet of Protection
One of the stat increasing books
Cloak of Resistance
...

And probably some more I'm forgetting. Of those, the gloves, belt, bow, greatsword, armor, ring, amulet, and cloak are all things that I would call necessities for that high level character's survival. That's 8 items. A 4E character really only needs a weapon, armor, and neck slot to be balanced.

A Monty Hall campaign is hardly a shining example of "need". Other than the sword, none of those items was "needed", and that assumes he's a melee fighter. If he's ranged, then the bow is the ONE item "needed".
I don't think the game is magic item dependent, but magic items are a fundamental part of the system. The game assumes that characters will find magic items as they go about their quests (and quite rightly so, magic items are a staple of the fantasy genre), so it has built the prescence of the items into the mechanics so that the game does not become to easy once said items are discovered. So magic items are both expected, and accounted for.

However, because only the enhancement bonus of the items are taken into consideration it is very easy to do away with them entirely and achieve the exact same results as before (without the little bonuses like fire damage, or regaining dailies).

As for *needing* the bonuses, you don't really. Sure it helps, but I made it to 4th level with my RPGA character without any magic items, and I don't miss much more now than I did at 1st. Sure it's only 4th level, but there are plenty of ways to make up that missing +5 to hit.

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

But the books come with instructions as to what to do to remove magic items from the game entirely - so even though you need those bonuses: you don't need to get them from items.

For a fair comparison, though, we must assume a default setting. People houseruled 3e to give level appropriate boni to their players to eliminate magic gear dependance. Others modded monsters. Playing with 3e and 4e default settings requires you to have magic gear or suck. That's that. Not that there is anything wrong with that, of course. I love magic stuff. But let's tell the truth here. Not a truth based off of a non-standard game.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

One thing about 4e is that they leave the math bare in the DMG, so if a DM wants a low magic game, he knows exactly what to tinker with to make the system work. For example, a DM could use weapon quality and special materials to replace magic items. "In the hoard you find a Fine Dwarven Steel Greataxe and a Very Fine Dragonbone Morningstar", with fine being +4 and very fine being +5. Dwarven Steel might have a daily that allows it to target reflex; it could sunder armor, while dragonbone might have bonuses to damage dragons.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/10.jpg)

I don't think the game is magic item dependent, but magic items are a fundamental part of the system. The game assumes that characters will find magic items as they go about their quests (and quite rightly so, magic items are a staple of the fantasy genre), so it has built the prescence of the items into the mechanics so that the game does not become to easy once said items are discovered. So magic items are both expected, and accounted for.

Since it does take those items into account AND the lack of a simple +1 can kill the party, the items are indeed needed.
You....

Do you really.. think that the Magic Item stuff is modeled after suffesscul MMORPG's? I... don't know what to say, really. You might remember the trillion tales about magical Items and that D&D pretty much went after those tales?

Magic Items are a staple of D&D, as they are a staple of Legends and Myths.

Heh, certainly they are staples of legends and myths. But King Arthur had Excalibur, and tried to get the Holy Grail. He didn't also have the +2 Ring of Sword Pulling, +1 Jockstrap of Guinevere Taming (in retrospect, he probably needed a +5 version of this), +3 Boots of Circular Table Making, +2 Holed Scabbard of Bastard Conception, and half a dozen other items.

Even Elric, last scion of a race of sorcerer-kings and among the most magic-infused of fictional characters, only mentions what, half a dozen items across ten+ books?

It's not a criticism at all how DnD4.0 is designed. This is a very different thing going on here, and quite possibly an improvement.
the lack of a simple +1 can kill the party

That, sir, is quite ridiculous.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

Since it does take those items into account AND the lack of a simple +1 can kill the party, the items are indeed needed.

No, they aren't. I have a sword and board fighter (human, not optimized), who made it to 4th without any magical gear (I just bought my +1 plate and got my +1 longsword, because I figure he's due for a reward). I definitely see where the +1 would help, and I admit it will add up as I increase in levels if I don't keep getting the bonuses. But, I could have done just fine (haven't hit 0 yet) without magic (as I did). And again, magic items aren't important, just the bonuses (which the core book told us how to get without items).

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

That, sir, is quite ridiculous.

Not according to the 4ed experts. According to them, I can make a character with a 14 in the prime stat and be fine, but with a 12 I will fail. That is a +1 difference.
A Monty Hall campaign is hardly a shining example of "need". Other than the sword, none of those items was "needed", and that assumes he's a melee fighter. If he's ranged, then the bow is the ONE item "needed".

Actually that was following the wealth by level guidelines, and erring on the side of under-funding the PCs. The character in question played both melee and ranged. If we follow your argument, then the only thing needed by a 4E ranger is a magic bow, because of course he'll never get hit, ever.

Jeebus, that's some high level play. I don't think I ever gave out anything better than +5 battle axe/artifact...with lowered plusses, that's about what a party of six had around 10th level in my campaign.

Maybe it's just there are more items at low level? That seems more likely. My higher level dungeons would have more than 4 items, while my lower level ones might only have 1 or two.

Eh, just gotta play a whole campaign in DnD4.0 and see for myself.

Level 20. Went all the way up from 2nd. Truly amazing campaign, despite what Max may assume about it after seeing nothing but a partial item list for one character.
No, they aren't. I have a sword and board fighter (human, not optimized), who made it to 4th without any magical gear (I just bought my +1 plate and got my +1 longsword, because I figure he's due for a reward). I definitely see where the +1 would help, and I admit it will add up as I increase in levels if I don't keep getting the bonuses. But, I could have done just fine (haven't hit 0 yet) without magic (as I did). And again, magic items aren't important, just the bonuses (which the core book told us how to get without items).

Yeah, that's the thing, you really can't tell 'need' in the first few levels, regardless. I'd have to see something past level 15 or so before 'need' would be the right word.

"Neat to have" sure works well. ;)
Not according to the 4ed experts. According to them, I can make a character with a 14 in the prime stat and be fine, but with a 12 I will fail. That is a +1 difference.

Nice. Hmm, I've never even remotely considered making a character with a miserable (in my opinion) prime stat of 14. Gonna have to see what that would look like.
Not according to the 4ed experts. According to them, I can make a character with a 14 in the prime stat and be fine, but with a 12 I will fail. That is a +1 difference.

Who are these "4ed experts," and where can I see/hear them stating this personally?

I ask because there is nothing I can find in the actual gaming product that says this.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

Actually that was following the wealth by level guidelines, and erring on the side of under-funding the PCs. The character in question played both melee and ranged. If we follow your argument, then the only thing needed by a 4E ranger is a magic bow, because of course he'll never get hit, ever.

Frankly, the wealth by level guidelines were......excessive. You didn't need half of what they suggested to function well a 3ed game.
It's not houserule, it is in the core books as option if you want low-magic campaigns.

Exactly. As an option - not standard. Compare standard games. Whatever option you choose to use is fine for gaming, but not for fair comparison - which is what we're attempting here.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Nice. Hmm, I've never even remotely considered making a character with a miserable (in my opinion) prime stat of 14. Gonna have to see what that would look like.

I've been told by many different players that 20 is too much, 16-18 is the sweet spot, and 14 is okay, but low. A 12, absolutely out of the question. That +1 seems to make all the difference. If the game assumes you will need a +5 item, and you have a +2, you're going to fail. That's something that was completely untrue for 3.5.
Who are these "4ed experts," and where can I see/hear them stating this personally?

I ask because there is nothing I can find in the actual gaming product that says this.

All the pro-4ed number crunchers. I went through a thread where I said that a 12 SHOULD be fine for someone to put in their prime stat, given that a 12 is above average. I got told over and over again, in no uncertain terms, that a 12 = fail. Many of them said a 14 = fail. However, just as many said a 14 was okay, so 14 seems to be the cut off for success. Lose +1 more with a 12, and game over.
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