WHy does nobody like 4E?

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In my area, my brother and I have not been able to find anyone who wants to even give it a try..... because everyone seems so upset on how things have changed. most of which I still don't understand, they did not take out Multiclassing, they simply made it so people could not do the really expoitable stuff old multiclassing does. and as for PrC's? I just feel that Paragon Paths were a really good direction to take them, old PrCs again, were heavily exploitable, especially in conjuction with multiclassing. but all in all, I feel like this makes things easier for people like me who aren't good as finding the best combos and just, want to play for fun.

and, just because they are no longer associated die rolls and DCs for Perforing, Cooking, etc. does that mean you can't do it? No, Not really. I really don't see why you can't do it.
In before the flames.

Have your friends read the system and played it a session or two? if not, try to make them. you cannot pass judgement on a game (positive or negative) on something without trying it.

Also, it's not true that "nobody likes 4E". Response has been overwhelmingly positive where I live. My entire group switched, and an old player is thinking of coming back.
In my area, my brother and I have not been able to find anyone who wants to even give it a try..... because everyone seems so upset on how things have changed. most of which I still don't understand, they did not take out Multiclassing, they simply made it so people could not do the really expoitable stuff old multiclassing does. and as for PrC's? I just feel that Paragon Paths were a really good direction to take them, old PrCs again, were heavily exploitable, especially in conjuction with multiclassing. but all in all, I feel like this makes things easier for people like me who aren't good as finding the best combos and just, want to play for fun.

and, just because they are no longer associated die rolls and DCs for Perforing, Cooking, etc. does that mean you can't do it? No, Not really. I really don't see why you can't do it.

Ultimately the goal is to play D&D, so just play whatever edition you can. As long as you have fun. I always think of D&D as edition neutral.
Yeah it has been overwhelmingly positive here too.
People do like 4e, infact WotC is reporting that the response is overwhelming, and that they are already on thier 3rd printing.

For those that do not like it, they state various reasons. Some are valid, others are just plain stupid. Some are just plain afraid of change.

/shrug people are entitled to thier opinons I guess. One would hope that the reserve judgment untill they actually try it.
Granis, I'm pretty sure this thread will soon erode into some sort of a volcano.

Anyways, B4 is right, but if that doesn't fix the thing, you should either stick with 3.X or perhaps extend your search farther away. Both options are not optimal, but well, people are strange. Especially roleplayers :P
In my area, my brother and I have not been able to find anyone who wants to even give it a try.....

If they do not want to even give it try, then there is not much help for them. While I would never tell someone they have to try something that they do not want to, I will certainly discount any opinion they have since they have no actual experience with it. If, after actually trying something they decide it is not for them, that's all right. They, at least, gave it a go. I think some people are afraid that they may actually like it and don't want to be in that situation. I know I had some egg on my face when, after years of stating that I did not like pumpkin pie but never having tasted it (just the thought made me squirm as a kid), I tried it and discovered it actually tasted pretty good. My family still ribs me to this day about that, but I still enjoy every slice of pumpkin pie.
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First don't try to force anybody to do anything, or even if they do decide to switch you may not be involved in their games.

Did you ask and get specific reasons why they dislike 4th?

The first step in understanding why someone doesn't like something would be to ask them, rather than try to guess why they don't like it.
Interesting... The Nov 30 dudes used to be all about posting weird misconceptions about the new edition to get the 4vengers roused...
In before the flames.

Me too. I can just smell the trolls already on their way here.

Have your friends read the system and played it a session or two? if not, try to make them. you cannot pass judgement on a game (positive or negative) on something without trying it.

Agreed. This goes doubly so for 4e, which is the Green Eggs and Ham of RPGs. It sounds bad, and it reads bad at first, but it plays really well.
Certain people like certain things. Others like other things. If someone wishes not to try something new, that is there choice. Neither you nor I can change a mind that wishes not to be changed.

4th Edition took many things that Players and DMs were used to and threw them out the window in favor of a new, more stream-lined system that allows for quicker character creation and game play. While I do not agree or disagree with this new way of things, I must state that I shall stick with older editions simply for the fact that I enjoy them more. I have read the new books (most noteably the DM's Manual and the Player's Handbook) and decided that they are not yet my cup of tea. 4th Edition is a good, viable system. It's drawn out the aspects of the game that many people enjoy and left out the parts that are arbitrary. However, there are parts of 4th Edition that glare most unpleasantly in my eyes (the more "cooky-cutter" method of creating Characters), and I simply do not desire such things in my games.

Take care, friend.
4E is very popular mostly since it fixed the 1st level problem of dying in one shot, which people hated.

On the downside, a lot of older gamers don't like it because it took away a lot of the noncombat options in the game and made them into either virtually unsuable rituals or just removed them altogether. The old spellcaster game of 3E is gone, and instead of having dozens of options, you've got the same amount as a fighter type, and they're all pretty much combat spells with similar mechanics.

Some of these nerfs make for a better game, but 4E went a bit overboard on many of them. It's one thing to go and try to balance the game, but it's another to do what 4E tried to do: remove anything that didn't fit neatly into the combat system.

It's not really that 4E is a bad system, its just very simplified. A simplification that looks like D&D for dummies to old school gamers, but makes the game easier to pick up for newbies.
OP here, this is the general response I've gotten in my area (Toledo Ohio)

Well, after many, many assurances from WoC that there "will be no 4th edition", I sunk a decent amount of cash into 3.5 books over time. For that reason alone it will be some time before I'll even touch it. Not to mention the fact that they've messed with the core, extensively. Having played for over 20 years, I find it insulting. 4th edition, in my opinion, is only an attempt by WoC to cater to video gamers in order to expand thier sales base.

I'm just getting so discuraged, especially because I don't have much in the way of a ride, so I can only make it out to certain LGSes. I've been talking about the general responce in my area being extremely negative.
The quote in my sig explains it.

You do know that 3e is foolproof too, right?

It's not like it's rocket surgery to play an RPG.
You do know that 3e is foolproof too, right?

It's not like it's rocket surgery to play an RPG.

Didn't you mean brain science? ;)
Well, after many, many assurances from WoC that there "will be no 4th edition", I sunk a decent amount of cash into 3.5 books over time. For that reason alone it will be some time before I'll even touch it. Not to mention the fact that they've messed with the core, extensively. Having played for over 20 years, I find it insulting. 4th edition, in my opinion, is only an attempt by WoC to cater to video gamers in order to expand thier sales base.

Yes, WotC lied about there being a 4th edition, and they explained their reasoning for doing so. If your friends are so hopping mad and anti-WotC, why are they still playing 3e? It's the same company.

They also "messed with the core, extensively" in the switch from 2e to 3e.
My feelings on 4E are mixed. On the plus side, the math and mechanics behind how things work are great. I can see a clear progression from my first level character and the system seems to be workable all the way up to 30th lvl. The character races also seem to be very balanced. Half-elves have become a viable race again. Also random character death at low levels seems to be much less of a problem.

The negatives are big though. I feel that the classes are very "cookie cutter" and don't leave much room for character development. In many ways I feel more like I am playing D&D mini's or Warhammer than traditional D&D. There are many times that I feel like I am playing a board game like descent instead of an RPG. The magical items also seem to be less than inspiring. There doesn't seem to be any sense of wonder or excitement in them. They really seem like magictech. Also, the rituals seem too be too expensive and produce very weak results. Our wizard bought an alarm ritual and used it. Because he did not have perception as a class skill we ended up getting ambushed. Everyone in the party, including the wizard, felt we wasted 25gp on a weak ritual that did not help the party at all.
Most of the people who dislike 4E do so because they already have a favorite Edition in mind. Just like with the transition to 3rd Edition, there's always going to be a group of people who think the new system is inferior, and hope that enough vocalization will get reversions to occur.
4E is very popular mostly since it fixed the 1st level problem of dying in one shot, which people hated.

On the downside, a lot of older gamers don't like it because it took away a lot of the noncombat options in the game and made them into either virtually unsuable rituals or just removed them altogether. The old spellcaster game of 3E is gone, and instead of having dozens of options, you've got the same amount as a fighter type, and they're all pretty much combat spells with similar mechanics.

Some of these nerfs make for a better game, but 4E went a bit overboard on many of them. It's one thing to go and try to balance the game, but it's another to do what 4E tried to do: remove anything that didn't fit neatly into the combat system.

It's not really that 4E is a bad system, its just very simplified. A simplification that looks like D&D for dummies to old school gamers, but makes the game easier to pick up for newbies.

A fantastic take on things, friend. I couldn't have said it better myself.

However, the fact that it is easier for newcomers to pick up and play is quite nice; I like the fact that the game is drawing new blood.

The gaming community needs a quickening now and again.

Take care, friend.
I'm having the same trouble where I'm at. Initially I was able to find some people to play with, and now people have reverted back to whatever they were playing before.

I prefer 3.5E, so it's not a huge deal because there are plenty of those groups around. But I do like 4E and would like to get into a group of it (or start one, which I haven't had much luck with since the initial sessions of people wanting to try it).

I'm going to look for an online 4E session I think.
My group has switched and is really enjoying it. In fact they want to play D&D more often now then ever. They are always calling me with 'hey when are we playing again?' and 'Man I really wanna play some D&D.. you doing anything tonight?' lol.

I've even added 2 new players since and they are having a blast. In fact several of my players who've been around since 2e (or even earlier, with one of them,) agree that it almost hearkens back to old D&D. The combat is fast and furious, as well as tactical in nature. I don't need to bring my laptop with me and spend 30 minutes calculating stats for a custom monster. Hell for the first time since 3rd ed hit, I can set up a deep encounter in seconds.. not hours.

Now mind I really enjoyed 3rd ed. I think it had a lot of new things that set it apart from 2nd ed. Classes were very distinct and offered a LOT of choice, something you simply didn't see in 2nd ed. But everyone knows the 10+ game in 3rd ed was and has always been broke and slow and little else but a trial for DM's. Hours of preparation, requiring a laptop on my end as the DM so I could keep track of all the different numbers and details. My characters sheets were 4+ pages long including spell details, modifiers in each encounter, etc, etc, etc. It was far to technical and really in the end got in the way of the fun.

So yea, my players really love 4e and many of the D&D players I talk seem to enjoy it. Those that are against it, many of them have some kind of odd misconceptions.. and haven't even tried playing it. Others have valid reasons but IMHO they don't get in the way of the fun so I don't care :p

One thing my players enjoy the most is the custom power cards I printed on card-stock. Each of their powers is on a card with all the pertinent details that they can sift through and pick a power on their turn. They turn over dailies and encounters as they use them and because they are right there, in their face, they really work together greatly and form strategies for the fight.

As part of this I must say one of my favorite parts of the game is that monsters have their own 'powers' to use. Their own strategic abilities. Even a group of kobolds can be a tough fight for a 1-3rd lvl group if you use their abilities to an advantage. It's great!
As of now where I live there are only 2 3.5 games left. 4E is a much better system, people who complain about cookie cutter characters have no idea what they are talking about. Try and get them to do KOTS, there is no reason to inflict the nightmare of 3.5 on yourself, none.
Personally, I love 4e; 3.x is pretty much dead to me.
I still play 3E more than 4E, 4E's kind of blah for me right now just on account of no summoning, no constructs, no animate dead, no mercenaries, no strongholds, etc. When 4E gets those (more than a bag of tricks) I'll come back. I like the system, but it needs more supplements
I still play 3E more than 4E, 4E's kind of blah for me right now just on account of no summoning, no constructs, no animate dead, no mercenaries, no strongholds, etc. When 4E gets those (more than a bag of tricks) I'll come back. I like the system, but it needs more supplements

And 3e has no balance. All in all Ill take a balanced system missing a few minor things (never liked summoning) then one that is so easily broken.
In my area, my brother and I have not been able to find anyone who wants to even give it a try..... because everyone seems so upset on how things have changed. most of which I still don't understand, they did not take out Multiclassing, they simply made it so people could not do the really expoitable stuff old multiclassing does. and as for PrC's? I just feel that Paragon Paths were a really good direction to take them, old PrCs again, were heavily exploitable, especially in conjuction with multiclassing. but all in all, I feel like this makes things easier for people like me who aren't good as finding the best combos and just, want to play for fun.

and, just because they are no longer associated die rolls and DCs for Perforing, Cooking, etc. does that mean you can't do it? No, Not really. I really don't see why you can't do it.

As others have said, just play whatever game gets people at the table, and have fun. After all that's what it's all about, isn't it?

On the subject of edition wars, I've seen more dramatic differences in the gamers since 4E came out. Some players voice their ardent hatred of anything 3E and loudly proclaim that 4E is the only true D&D, while other players scoff at their audacity and claim that 3E is the most complete and flexible D&D ever and therefore the only one that should be played.

Personally, I'm playing some 4E and GMing 3E. I find it easier to pull together a 3E game at this moment in time, but thta might very well change in the future, depending on how accepted Pathfinder becomes for the 3E crowd.

I think that ... "It's not really that 4E is a bad system, its just very simplified. A simplification that looks like D&D for dummies to old school gamers, but makes the game easier to pick up for newbies." ... is a pretty solid take on the current schism.

Actually ... that quote is worthy of a sig change!
And 3e has no balance. All in all Ill take a balanced system missing a few minor things (never liked summoning) then one that is so easily broken.

Its unbalanced if, like ANY GAME, the DM lets it become so. When it comes to the game, to quote the last act of Hamlet, "The king...the King's to blame!" I'm actually reverting to 1st ed. to handle elemental summoning...you lose control of a monster from the ID, and it goes nuts.
Its unbalanced if, like ANY GAME, the DM lets it become so. When it comes to the game, to quote the last act of Hamlet, "The king...the King's to blame!" I'm actually reverting to 1st ed. to handle elemental summoning...you lose control of a monster from the ID, and it goes nuts.

Ah yes, the first refuge of the bad game designer.

"Its the player's fault!"

No, it isn't. Its the game designer's fault for making a broken game in the first place.

Its not the DM's fault if any game they're playing by the rules becomes broken; it is the designer of the game's fault.

Period.
As of now where I live there are only 2 3.5 games left. 4E is a much better system, people who complain about cookie cutter characters have no idea what they are talking about. Try and get them to do KOTS, there is no reason to inflict the nightmare of 3.5 on yourself, none.

But obviously it some think it necessary to inflict the nightmare of 4e on them. :P


Either way, I don't really feel that the edition is the most important part of having a fun game. I'm fine with playing with either 3.5, 4e, or other.

The more important part for me is having a good group and fun adventures. Those factors overshadow the preference for a single system by a significant amount.
Ah yes, the first refuge of the bad game designer.

"Its the player's fault!"

No, it isn't. Its the game designer's fault for making a broken game in the first place.

Its not the DM's fault if any game they're playing by the rules becomes broken; it is the designer of the game's fault.

Period.

Are these the same designers you want 3PP to stop stealing their work by using the GSL that the designers were so at fault for making a bad game from?
The more important part for me is having a good group and fun adventures. Those factors overshadow the preference for a single system by a significant amount.

This.

If you can find good players for any game you like to play, you're doing just fine.

EDIT: And as for my experiences with people not liking 4th Edition, most of the people I've heard who aggressively oppose 4th Edition (instead of, say, merely having a different preference) have boiled down to either misconceptions based on rumors / skimming the books, being intentionally obtuse with the 4th edition rules, or hating it because it's new/different.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
Hmm...does any of you guys remember who had that sig about how hate is always blind hate? That's about as good as it gets for getting people to give 4th a try.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
And love is blind. So no matter how you feel about 4th edition you can't even read the books unless they are in Braille.
And love is blind. So no matter how you feel about 4th edition you can't even read the books unless they are in Braille.

Load of baloney. Only puppyish Romeo and Juliet love is. It's really easy to grow disillusioned with something, trust me.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
EDIT: And as for my experiences with people not liking 4th Edition, most of the people I've heard who aggressively oppose 4th Edition (instead of, say, merely having a different preference) have boiled down to either misconceptions based on rumors / skimming the books, being intentionally obtuse with the 4th edition rules, or hating it because it's new/different.

IMAGE(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/funny-pictures-kitten-is-sort-of-fierce.jpg)
So, after you "boiled down" no (sizable) opposition comes from people who read/understood the rule and didn't like it?
I don't find that reasonable... but you choose the ingedients. ;)
GAMMA WORLD Wuv D&D: Beyond the RPG - Transcript This is a complete transcript. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22329697?sdb=1&pg=last#390668593 The audio file is in this News Archive http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4news/DNDXP 2010 D&D Product Overview (47 minutes into the Audio) http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22329697?sdb=1&pg=last#390928045
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So, after you "boiled down" no (sizable) opposition comes from people who read/understood the rule and didn't like it?
I don't find that reasonable... but you choose the ingedients. ;)

Blind hate, being an idiot, and conservadurism for it's own sake are all stupid reasons. A good reason would be disliking the rules after a thorough read, or simply preferring another edition because you like it better after deciding it was not for you.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
WHy does nobody like 4E?

I wouldn't say that. Out of about 30 D&D players I know, 2 have switched to 4.0 Most of the people out of that 30 bought 4.0 but after trying it out don't play anymore.

So, that's about 7% of the local gamers in my area. I wouldn't say that's nobody.
I wouldn't say that. Out of about 30 D&D players I know, 2 have switched to 4.0 Most of the people out of that 30 bought 4.0 but after trying it out don't play anymore.

So, that's about 7% of the local gamers in my area. I wouldn't say that's nobody.

For all intents and purposes, that DOES count as nobody. Nobody gives a damn when there aren't enough people to form a single standard group.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Blind hate, being an idiot, and conservadurism for it's own sake are all stupid reasons. A good reason would be disliking the rules after a thorough read, or simply preferring another edition because you like it better after deciding it was not for you.

I read the excerpts, I read the PHB and DMG all the way through. I read all the errata, and the entire Rules D&D Compendium.
Do those count as "thorough"?

I don't like 4th.
Blind hate, being an idiot, and conservadurism for it's own sake are all stupid reasons. A good reason would be disliking the rules after a thorough read, or simply preferring another edition because you like it better after deciding it was not for you.

I agree.

BUT...
GAMMA WORLD Wuv D&D: Beyond the RPG - Transcript This is a complete transcript. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22329697?sdb=1&pg=last#390668593 The audio file is in this News Archive http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4news/DNDXP 2010 D&D Product Overview (47 minutes into the Audio) http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22329697?sdb=1&pg=last#390928045
I read the excerpts, I read the PHB and DMG all the way through. I read all the errata, and the entire Rules D&D Compendium.
Do those count as "thorough"?

I don't like 4th.

That's okay. Then, the only thing left is to learn to love the Previous edition forums.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).