But as above, you could also run to that spot in full plate, and as long as your in SC/TC you can still make a stealth check without the use of this power and gain a +2 to speed. With no penalty. cause your not moving while using stealth your merely moving to a location then trying to hide.
Rules are not suppose to be super realistic they are to simulate fantasy world events, In such they do things that are not part of normal laws that we everyday experience.
Yet again though your not making the check to move without penalty, that is already FREE as Part of the power's effect. So your making a check, at the end of your move when using fleeting ghost. A Stealth Check. Its an effect which can and always will supersede normal rules. So, In effect you can make a stealth check to hide or do whatever you want regarding stealth at the end of your action. Its like Running quietly then sinking into the shadows after your done.
Because of the power's effect, you don't require SC/TC because as per the rules if you do not have SC/TC your not even ALLOWED period, to make a check it fails automatically. BUT because of the effect which supersedes that rule, cause its an effect. It allows you to make a check to hide at the end of your FREE move action with NO normal penalty. The power cost a move action, not your moving or making a check. The power gives you your ability to do so, which also has the bonus of not taking the normal penalty to movement. BUT you get to make a stealth check. NOT make a stealth check to move without penalty. And it clearly states that in the power.
Now if you succeed, your subject to the normal rules of stealth, you need some degree of cover, or it fails, if you have any degree of cover you succeed. Mind you anyone in LOS still gets Perception check.
That has and always will be the intent of the power, Errata for stealth was intended SO, other classes could not gain stealth like a rogue, unless spending 3 Feats into Mutliclassing to gain Rogue Utility Powers.
It has to do with balance issues regarding other classes. Fleeting Ghost is the Rogue's bread and butter power and the only power that makes them good at what they do.
I mean cmon, Thats what rogue's do, if you can't see that the change to stealth was to prevent other classes from doing so, and to solidify the Rogue, for what their class does.
Holy thread necro Batman!
Your logic doesn't work for the following reasons.
1.) Stealth wasn't nerfed for the reasons you stated. It was nerfed because hiding was so easy that there was no reason ever to risk going into melee combat for the flank as it made you less effective than if you stayed back and hid behind anything including and up to another ally. Now the best way to get combat advantage is by flanking and ranged is still viable but not clearly better than melee as it was before.
2.) Running with out stealth and then stealthing is a great idea if you want to make the monster aware of your presence. Unlike with your idea by using fleeting ghost you can move at your movement with out the enemy ever becomming aware of your presence. Try hiding in the way you stated and all you've succeeded in doing is making the enemy aware of you as you ran to hide behind a wall. Then on his turn he'll just walk around the wall in the direction he heard/saw you go and attack you with combat advantage thanks to you running on your turn. Mission accomplished you just failed at staying hidden and gave up any element of surprise and gave the enemy a bonus to attack you. *thumbs up*
3.) Fleeting Ghost says you make a stealth check at no point in time does it change any of the rules for what is required for that stealth check to be successful. A perfect example being where it specifically states you dont take the -5 stealth check penalty from moving more than two squares.
4.) An example of an exception to the rules would be Level 6: Chameleon. It specifically states exceptions to the rules stating that you remain hidden even though you do not have cover. This is an exception to the rules. "Make a stealth check" is not an exception you just make a stealth check using the normal rules. Another example of an exception to the rule would be Level 10: Shadow Stride. It specifically says you only need cover at the end of your movement and that movement that brings you out of cover during the action does not negate you being hidden. Once again this is an example of what is an exception to the rule. "Make a stealth check" is not an example of an exception to the rules.
For one, you can't hide behind an ally as you seem to believe in your, nicely labeled section 1. Allies do not and never have provided cover.
Also, I never once stated you could move with fleeting Ghost and the enemy be unaware of your presence if you read any of my posts you will even see that I state you can be seen, but are allowed to make a stealth check.
And also, in regards to not taking the -5, Its a secondary effect of the power, i.e BONUS not part of the power but a BONUS. If the power was just to move without penalty it would have stated such as part of the original text line, and not that you can move without taking the normal penalty.
I think you need to brush up on your rules more so, since you can't even understand the basic rules underlining stealth or cover, since you never knew that allies don't provide cover.
Nor the clear understanding of how effects work.
I will say this, Maybe I am wrong, But under the base rules of how effects work and RAW works, the power works. Also the rules governing stealth regardless of how you want to think they work, are clear that a stealth check if successful regardless of how or why or if it makes sense. Allows you to be hidden, Unheard or Unnoticed all factors included, for all intent and purpose every stealth check basically means your invisible in every way shape or form as it includes all factors of the check not portions of.
If you make a check and succeed regardless of even if someone knows 99% you are there, your still considered hidden for the overall effect.
Were not talking about, if its plausible in real life, Its just the way it is.
I think most people, like most people who want to argue every power or that because they don't think it works that way, simply can not look at it from the other angle either.
The simple fact of the matter is, making a stealth check regardless of for what makes you hidden in every form regardless, if you succeed. With that basic understanding of stealth skill, Then after the effect of the power allowed you to stealth, Then the normal rules of the stealth skill would come into play. Cut and Dry.
If your going to try and make a valid argument, Then please use more accurate information when you do.
Remember this isn't 3.5 there is no move silently and hide check they are combined in all aspects if you succeed in your stealth check you do in every way.
When you read the power and look at it, Move your speed "and" make a stealth check. The word and is the defining point. Hard written fact, of the rule right from the pages, about making a stealth check,
"Success: You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from view."
All of those things, combined as one. not one, not two, but all. If the power was only intended as moving without penalty it would have stated that and just that. Not AND make a stealth check.
Take it as you will, I mean we can argue all day about who is right and wrong. But as it stands, by clear definition of the word(s) that are used and basic grammar.
PHB page 280 I suggest you take the time to freshen up on the rules as it's clear you're not as up to date with them as you like to think you are.
Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden.
Fleeting Ghost + Chameleon (used after he attacks, because it triggers from the auto-breaking of stealth). Since the powers say you can do it, he basically was like the "Predator" of that game...
PHB page 280 I suggest you take the time to freshen up on the rules as it's clear you're not as up to date with them as you like to think you are.
Allies do provide cover to other allies but never to enemies and vice versa. So when you're firing your bow through Goblin 1 at Goblin 2. You take a -2 to your attack roll because Goblin 2 has cover thanks to Goblin 1 being in the way. Now I'm not saying it was good logic but many people with bad logic much like yourself insisted that per RAW you could hide behind an ally.
You stated there was no point in fleeting ghost because you could just move and make a stealth check which was exactly the same as fleeting ghost. I specifically countered this by showing how your opinion was incorrect.
Effect: You can move your speed and make a stealth check. You do not take the normal penalty from movement on this check.
I'm really at a loss for words for your interpretation of this. It's not some kind of secondary bonus. It's all part of the same "Effect" line. The fact that you can't comprehend something so simple really makes my responding pointless.
As I've already shown above you should take your own advice as I've shown that I at least know the rules far better than you do yourself.
You are wrong. A stealth check works as long as it follows all of the rules stated in the rulebook. Unless an exception is specifically stated. I listed two such exceptions as they where spelled out in my previous post. Make a stealth check doesn't state any exceptions to the rule on making a stealth check.
It works yes until the monster moves towards you and gains line of sight something he can easily gain on his turn. (An exception to this rule being where Chameleon specifically states you remain hidden.)
Why are you bringing up how things work in real life? We're talking about rules of a game that has magic and monsters in it. I'm well aware of the distinction between fantacy and reality.
Yes clearly this is the case in your situation. I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong. I've been wrong in the past and I'll be wrong at some point in the future. However you haven't come up with a single response that I haven't shown to be untrue. When you can I'll reconsider my position.
I don't see what point you're trying to make here? To succeed at a stealth check you have to meet every single condition required by the rules. If you don't you fail unless there are specific rules which exempt you such as Chameleon or Hide in plain site.
You should take your own advice as I've shown above. My information is correct.
Why are you bringing up 3.5 it has nothing to do with what we're talking about. You have a tendency to bring up stuff that doesn't matter.. it really muddies what is trying to be discussed.
If you've already been noticed before making your stealth check you don't suddenly become unnoticed just because you made a stealth check. The enemy knows you're present and can go to the last location he saw you at and start searching. If he gets line of site on you then you're unhidden. He would have to have an unobstructed view of you having cover he would need to beat your stealth score. Otherwise if he has a full unobstructed view of you then your stealth automaticaly fails and he sees you, it's not invisibility.
This is your opinion and you have nothing to back this up with. They've stated what you can do with this power and what exceptions to the rules are present. Why would they make an exception to the -5 penalty but not the requirements of the stealth check?
I have nothing to add to this except that you haven't succeeded at either.
Ok no more long posts, I will just say this.
First off, When I was talking about allies providing cover, they only provide cover for attack rolls, you can't use an ally for cover for stealth checks.
And as for making a normal move action and then using stealth, if you succeed your still hidden, yes the enemy can walk over to you but he has to be adjacent to you or defeat your stealth check with perception to see you. But he would still have to take the action to do that. So, if fleeting ghost doesn't allow you to do that, then just run there instead, let the enemy waste his time going to you, or going threw your friends just to break stealth. If he doesn't you still get CA. And you got to move full speed without penalty anyways.
Anyways, Below is my last post regarding this subject.
Before Errata = PHB Pg. 188 Success on a stealth check: You Avoid notice, unheard and hidden from view. ALL of those on a success.
After Errata = Success on a stealth check: You are hidden, which means you are silent and invisible to the enemy.
Fleeting Ghost: This is how its written.
Effect: You can move your speed "and" make a stealth check.
(End of sentence, Starting second line, new sentence.)
You do not take the normal penalty from movement on this check.
Stealth Rules, Updated Errata, As Written.
✦ Becoming Hidden: You can make a Stealth check against an enemy "only" if
you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if you’re
outside the enemy’s line of sight.
The new rules are written as such, You cannot even make a stealth check period by normal means without SC/TC. Or outside of combat etc.
Fleeting Ghost allows you to make a stealth check, its an effect that supersedes the normal rules. As such, you no longer follow the rules for becoming hidden, because your allowed to make a stealth check and if you succeed your invisible, thats written no way around it period. Now you follow the rules for staying hidden, as written.
✦ Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these
Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment
against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need
superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do
need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use
another creature as cover to remain hidden.
Keep Quiet: If you speak louder than a whisper or otherwise draw
attention to yourself, you don’t remain hidden from any enemy that can hear
Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must
make a new Stealth check with a –5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is –10. If
any enemy’s passive Perception check beats your check result, you don’t
remain hidden from that enemy.
Don’t Attack: If you attack, you don’t remain hidden.
I mean, nothing to argue there at all, other then maybe it shouldn't work like that or maybe that the description of fleeting ghost should change, but as is thats the way it is written.
We're basically talking in circles here so I'm going to ask a couple of questions before I let the matter drop.
1.) Excluding errata because we're talking about how it was. Where does it make the distinction between allies providing cover and cover from objects?
I've read the book cover to cover numerous times and I can tell you there is no distinction between the two in terms of how it applies to stealth. I agree with you that it wasn't intended but how it was written it could be argued that RAW said you could. Similar to our current scenario.
The other thing is just this last tid bit. Let's assume for a moment that you're right and "make a stealth check" is an exception to the rules. Barring the fact that I've given examples of what an exception to the rules are we'll just play this out.
So what you're saying that as a Rogue I can move my speed with out taking a -5 penalty to my stealth check and then hide in plain view. It doesn't matter if anything has a clear line of effect on me. It says make a stealth check so I get to make one and become hidden because it's an exception to the rules.
Are you suggesting that a level 2 at-will utility power is this powerful?
I end this again with "Make a stealth check" is not an exception to the rules for conditions on when stealth is allowed. It's allowing you to make a stealth check as part of the same move action instead of using a minor action after you moved. So with this power you can move/hide use a minor and use a standard. I should modify my response to say it's an exception to the rules because you can do it as part of your move action instead of using a minor. However it doesn't negate the total cover requirment.
Edit: I'm also pretty sure you don't need to be next to a target to bring him out of stealth. You just need unobstructed line of site. I believe the being adjacent applies to when the person is hidden with cover. I could be mistaken on this and will double check in a minute.
2nd Edit: I'm right page 188 top left of page Cover and Concealment. A creature that has unblocked line of site on you automatically sees you. No perception check required.
the way you are suggesting with an at will power amounts to near constant stealth.
First, Let me apologize if I came off rude, It wasn't my original intent, I believe more so, that we were having a problem seeing it from each others angle.
Secondly, Yes after checking through again, your right there is no rule prior to errata that states, Allies cannot be used to gain cover during stealth.
I assumed such as the description of cover referrers only to inanimate objects, not people. So I took it as such. And under the rules for attacking, allies only provide cover to you against ranged attacks from enemies.
But again, I never once said you could hide in plain sight, Only that fleeting ghost allows you to make stealth check at the end of your move so you can hide, without having SC/TC, you only need cover.
When I stated that you then follow normal rules and referred too, Remaining Hidden, It states you most have some degree of cover to remain hidden. Even if someone has clear line of sight from you and is 2 Squares away if you have cover, and it doesn't beat your stealth check you remain hidden.
Its like this, Your in combat and there is a low wall 3 squares away, you use Fleeting Ghost, Run to the low wall, Make Stealth Check, Success, Now you follow normal rules for remaining hidden, Since you have cover you are effectively Invisible, i.e Hidden/Stealthed. Yes they might have seen you move in that direction, but they still can't pinpoint where, because once you came into any type of cover or concealment you just vanished like a ghost.
Now, if there was no cover/concealment any wheres it would be, you use fleeting ghost, move 3 squares, make a stealth check. Success. Referrer to Remaining hidden rules as normal. But you have no degree of cover. So you don't remain hidden. Enemies see you as normal. Even with the success, but you do not remain in stealth, it would seem to the enemy that you moved like a blur, and seemed to almost vanish for an instant, but with no cover they see you clearly.
It works the same as being in stealth, Then moving from cover, out of cover into enemy LOS, they automatically see you, no check required. But, if your in cover and remain and cover while you move, they don't unless their perception check, beats your stealth check.
On a failure on the check in both cases, you can still move your full speed, without any penalty, Problem is they just beat your check and see you.
Prior to errata the power worked exactly like this, After errata the power still works like that.
Which is why I think during errata they did not change the power, because that was its intent, to give rogues the ability to hide better then any other class.
Unless a class, Mutliclasses into rogue then again at lvl 8 takes the Acolyte Power, To gain Rogue Utility In which they can do the same.
If you take that all into consideration, It means yes rogues have an advantage in stealth, That no other class can do till lvl 8. Which costs them 2 Feats, and 1 Utility power from their class powers. That is alot to give up for some class builds.
Seems more then reasonable, as thats what rogues do. Again, maybe I am wrong and Fleeting Ghost will be changed, But I really don't think so.
I do not think the power is too powerful at all, It has 2 functions.
1) It allows you to move your speed, and make a stealth check. To become hidden, You still need cover for it work, Just not SC/TC.
2) It allows you to move through cover at your full speed without any penalty, as long as you stay in some degree of cover or concealment.
First to Gurtyel: Sorry, I tried to read your post but it made my head hurt. So that's the reason for my not responding. I know I sound like a complete Jerk. (I am a little bit of a Jerk I'll admit.)
Now to Psionghost it's ok I think we both came off as a little hostile.
My main point now is if you say it's an exception to the rule, why stop at saying it requires regular cover for it to work?
Reading it literally as an exception the way you have one could easily argue that per RAW you dont need cover you can just make a stealth check and become hidden with out cover because the power says. "Make a stealth check" With no requirments to that check.
It's reading it as making a stealth check is making a stealth check regardless of what any of the rules are. Exception based rules don't exclude any rules not mentioned specifically. It includes what rules are changed and anything it doesn't specifically state as being changed remains the same.
Q: Fleeting Ghost, p119, says you can move & make a stealth check.
Does this mean that use of this power allows the rogue to ignore the normal rule that moving through open space during combat negates stealth, and allow them to make a stealth attack immediately after moving, while in plain view?
Or does the rogue have to end their turn in concealment/cover for the stealth check to be valid?
A: This ability allows you to move at your full speed and not take a penalty to your stealth check, as described on page 188. All other rules for stealth, cover, and concealment still apply.
How would it be different from Fleeting Ghost?
Answers from Customer Support are notoriously inaccurate, even self-contradictory. Until I see Errata, I think I will play it as written
I think that the spelling of the power is clear:
You are hide
You want to move
You roll stealth
Move your speed without penalty and remain hidden if you can (during and after movement).
Secret Stride, Utility
At Will, Martial
Move Action, Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.Effect: Move up to your speed. If you make a Stealth check at the end of this movement, then you do not take the normal penalty from moving on this check.
If the utility were intended to modify existing Stealth checks, it would say so. Fleeting Ghost does not. Instead, it adds another way to make a Stealth check which is an exception to the Stealth Errata.
A successful Stealth check can accomplish one of two things. Either you can become hidden, or you can remain hidden. If the intent of Fleeting Ghost were to allow you to move and stay hidden, it would include the clause, "You must be hidden to use this power," just as Shadow Stride does. Fleeting Ghost does not, so the result of the successful Stealth check logically must be to become hidden.
Thus, Fleeting Ghost creates an at-will move action that is an exception to Becoming Hidden.
Thus it is demonstrated.
Answers from Customer Support are notoriously inaccurate, even self-contradictory. Until I see Errata, I think I will play it as written.
Yes, Rogues are just that good.Smeelbo
Shadow Stride Rogue Utility 10
You silently step from shadow to shadow, slipping past your foes
unseen and unheard.
At-Will ✦ Martial
Move Action Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: You must be hiding to use this power. You can move
your speed. At the end of that movement, if you have
cover, you can make a Stealth check with no penalty for
moving. If you make the Stealth check, you stay hidden
during your movement.
Fleeting Ghost Rogue Utility 2
You are stealthy and fleet of foot at the same time.
At-Will ✦ Martial
Move Action Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: You can move your speed and make a Stealth check.
You do not take the normal penalty from movement on