How would YOU stat the Raven Queen herself?

53 posts / 0 new
Last post
Hey all. Inspired by the Godforged Colossus and the chilling descriptions of the Sorrowsworn, I plan on having the Raven Queen be the final antagonist of my campaign, one with all the power worthy of a Goddess of Death. I'm thinking level 40 solo artillery, considering Orcus is level 33 and Moradin is level 38.

Reason why I'd have her be artillery is simply because I consider such perhaps the most dramatic kind of foe. I imagine her turning aging whole legions to skeletons and then to dust with a sweep of her hands, or turning iron golems to rusting piles of junk. Probably instead of just one unbelievably powerful recharge attack, she'd have three; probably an "aging" time-based attack used on living foes, a "wave of rot" attack that inverts the necrotic resistance of undead, and a "rust" attack that devastates constructs or depletes armor class. The latter two will inflict ridiculous amounts of damage against non-living foes to symbolize life being all that she lacks authority over.

In contrast to an epic controller, she wouldn't have anything that decreases the offensive output of her foes (I hate a slow fight) but instead her every attack would strip away more and more of the party's defenses for the rest of the encounter.

I was also thinking she'd have much less HP (probably half) than you'd expect for a solo monster, but she'd be accompanied by a bunch of shadar-kai who the party would mostly ignore due to them being too low level to inflict much damage on the party but high enough to have a ton of HP. The first time they "kill" the Raven Queen, she remains dead for one round. The following round, a huge amount of her followers would adopt an expression of terror, rapidly dessicate, and collapse, dead, and she'd stand back up, fully healed. She might have a different suite of powers the second time around, perhaps themed around Oblivion and other metaphysical annihilation concepts rather than the physical.

Hmmmm. Thoughts?
I think she would be a solo artillery (leader) and she could summon shadar-kai "paladins."
Resident Piggles Zombie piggy is eatin' your sigs om nom nom (>*o*)>
MTG Card
Front: PigKnight, One Line Poster (3W) Legendary Creature - Boar Knight Vigilance When this creature dies, return him to play and transform him. (2/3) >(5/3)< Back: (Black)ZombiePiggles, Eater of Tomato Sauce Legendary Creature - Boar Knight Zombie Trample, Intimidate B: Regenerate this creature. When this creature is the target of a white spell, transform this creature. (5/3)

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/15.jpg)

Just for a fluff thing, instead of having the shadar-kai all scream and die, have them fall on their swords. She seems more likely to inspire fatalistic loyalty in her followers than to mercilessly suck out their souls.
Just for a fluff thing, instead of having the shadar-kai all scream and die, have them fall on their swords. She seems more likely to inspire fatalistic loyalty in her followers than to mercilessly suck out their souls.

BRILLIANT.
How do you know that Moradin is 38. Are there stats for him??
How do you know that Moradin is 38. Are there stats for him??

Not yet but they have released the information he will be lvl 38. Honestly for a quick build I would steal Orcus's abilities rename them and level him up a few. Although instead of Shadar-kai I would have her summon Sorrowsworn they seem closer to her.
Do we have any hint of the relative power level of the deities compared to one another?
This would be my suggestion. Very close to Orcus, but with a different flavour. She weakenes her enemies over time, and when she is bloodied, she gets really angry.
Edit: I thought about giving her immunity against radiant, but the realised that I would kill all kinds of Paladins and clerics. So she just got high resistance to radiance.

The Raven Queen Level 38 Solo Artillery
Medium immortal humanoid (God) XP 395.000

Inititiave +26 Senses Perception +32, Darkvision
Shroud of the Inevitable End: Aura (20); An enemy in the aura affected by a healing power receives only the half ammount of HP
Storm of the flowing Ages: Aura (10); An enemy that starts its turn in the aura takes a cumulative penalty of -1 to all defenses until the end of the encounter
HP 1560 ; Bloodied 780
AC 50, Fortitude 47, Reflex 49, Will 52
Immune: Disease, Poison Resist: 20 Radiant, 10 variable (3/Encounter)
+5 to saving throws
2 AP
Speed 6, Teleport 10

Scythe of the Raven Queen (Standard, at-Will) Weapon
+45 vs. AC, 2d10+12 damage and the target is weakened and slowed (save ends both)

Deadly Glare (Standard, at-will) Radiant
Range 20, Area Burst 4, +43 vs. Fort, 3d10+12 radiant damage, Target slowed and ongoing 10 radiant damage. Miss: Target takes Half Damage, no ongoing damage and is slowed.

Death Sentence (Standard, Recharge 6)
Range 5, +43 vs. Will, Target fells unconscious (save ends, does not awake by damage) After failed save: Target reduced to 0 HP. Miss: Target stunned and takes -5 to all defenses (save ends)

Presence of Death (Immediate Interrupt, when enemy attacks the Raven Queen in melee and she is not bloodied, at-Will) Fear
+43 vs. Will, Target is pushed 3 Squares

Call of Sorrows (Minor, Recharge 6, only when not bloodied)
Ranged 10, one Sorrowsworn Reaper appears in range, he takes its turn right after the Raven Queen

To kill Death itself (immediate reaction, when bloodied by an attack)
The Raven Queen dies, remove her from the game. At the beginning of her next turn, reduce all allies present to 0 hit points and return the Raven Queen to a square of your choice with Hit Points equal to her bloodied value. She then uses Wrath of Death.

Wrath of Death (Immediate Reaction, when returned to game by to kill Death itself, encounter) Necrotic
Close Burst 20, +43 vs. Fort, 6d12+12 necrotic damage, Targets take 20 ongoing necrotic damage and are stunned (Save ends both)

Alignment: Unaligned
Skills: History +34 ,Religion +34, Insight +37, Intimidate +35
Str: 22 (+25) Dex: 25 (+26) Wis: 35 (+32)
Con: 25 (+26) Int: 30 (+29) Cha: 33 (+30)

Equipment: Scythe of the Raven Queen
Remember that she's not just death, but fate(Along with Lolth and Ioun).

I'd give her a few Star Warlock-like powers where she messes with the heroes's fates or twists probability to her own advantage.
Good point. I added something. Now when she is not bloodied, she uses her aspect of fate, when bloodied, she uses her aspect of death.

The Raven Queen Level 38 Solo Artillery
Medium immortal humanoid (God) XP 395.000

Inititiave +26 Senses Perception +32, Darkvision
Shroud of the Inevitable End: Aura (20); An enemy in the aura affected by a healing power receives only the half ammount of HP
Storm of the flowing Ages: Aura (10); An enemy that starts its turn in the aura takes a cumulative penalty of -1 to all defenses until the end of the encounter
HP 1560 ; Bloodied 780
AC 50, Fortitude 47, Reflex 49, Will 52
Immune: Disease, Poison Resist: 20 Radiant, 10 variable (3/Encounter)
+5 to saving throws
2 AP
Speed 6, Teleport 10

Scythe of the Raven Queen (Standard, at-Will) Weapon
+45 vs. AC, 2d10+12 damage and the target is weakened and slowed (save ends both)

Withering Glare (Standard, at-will) Radiant (Necrotic if bloodied)
Range 20, Area Burst 4, +43 vs. Fort, 3d10+12 radiant damage, Target slowed and ongoing 10 radiant damage. Miss: Target takes Half Damage, no ongoing damage and is slowed. This power deals necrotic damage instead of radiant damage if the Raven Queen is bloodied

Call of Sorrows (Minor, Recharge 5,6, only when not bloodied)
Ranged 10, one Sorrowsworn Reaper appears in range, he takes its turn right after the Raven Queen

Twist of Fate (Immediate Reaction, when an enemy rolls an attack roll against the raven Queen, at-Will)
The enemy rerolls that attack, the Raven Queen may use the result of the first roll in her next round. Only one roll may be saved in such a way.

To kill Death itself (immediate reaction, when bloodied by an attack)
The Raven Queen dies, remove her from the game. At the beginning of her next turn, reduce all allies present to 0 hit points and return the Raven Queen to a square of your choice with Hit Points equal to her bloodied value. She then uses Wrath of Death.

Wrath of the Queen (Immediate Reaction, when returned to game by to kill Death itself, encounter) Necrotic
Close Burst 20, +43 vs. Fort, 6d12+12 necrotic damage, Targets take 20 ongoing necrotic damage and are stunned (Save ends both)

Death Sentence (Minor, Recharge 5, 6, only when bloodied)
Range 5, +43 vs. Will, Target fells unconscious (save ends, does not awake by damage) After failed save: Target reduced to 0 HP. Miss: Target stunned and takes -5 to all defenses until end of next turn

Presence of Death (Immediate Interrupt, when enemy attacks the Raven Queen and she is bloodied, at-Will) Fear
+43 vs. Will, Target is pushed 3 Squares

Alignment: Unaligned
Skills: History +34 ,Religion +34, Insight +37, Intimidate +35
Str: 22 (+25) Dex: 25 (+26) Wis: 35 (+32)
Con: 25 (+26) Int: 30 (+29) Cha: 33 (+30)

Equipment: Scythe of the Raven Queen
If the Raven Queen is level 38+ then the PCs would need to be in the mid 30's to defeat her or the group would need to be about 10+ level 30's.

She is a god so even if She is defeated in battle she still isn't dead. Her physical form is just an aspect. She may be shocked for a while but within a few days or years She could just summon up a new aspect. In order to defeat Her the PCs should actually use a ritual to bind Her into Her aspect.

In the DMG pg 162 it says "The gods are creatures of thought and ideal, not bound by the same limitations as beings of flesh . . . They can appear in multiple places at once. . . But they can also make physical forms for themselves with a moment's effort . . . However, to destroy a god requires more than merely striking its physical form down with spell or sword. Gods have killed other gods. . . . For a mortal to accomplish this deed would require rituals of awesome power to bind a god to its physical form-and then a truly epic battle to defeat that form".

With this being said if she isn't bound into one physical form She could summon two or three level 38 solo aspects of Herself to kill the PCs. Binding her would likely be damn near impossible.

Fighting and killing a god should be allowed because a few of the gods were once mortal, several gods have died during the war with the primordials, and with the PHB allowing the PCs to take an epic destiny that allows the PCs to become gods.

Resident Grouch and Corrupting Influence A Monster Appears I'm Black and Blue how 'bout you?


I call giving a god Hit Points advocating its destruction. As the old saying goes, "if it has stats, we can kill it."
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
"I used to feel that the killing of gods was just stupid... By the by, in 3e, it was... Epic levels were IDIOTIC AND RIDICULOUS. Gods were presented as nigh omnipotent and only on par with one another... In 4e, though, they are presented as flawed, holding great power over their domain, but not being all-powerful. I mean, Vecna was once mortal... Orcus lost an eye (a difficult task, considering gods don't technically have true forms)... So why is it not possible to, with enough power, fell a god? I mean, if that's true, why was the war with the primordials such a big deal? The gods should have just thrown them down and said, 'who's my bi-otch?' Wow, that was so crude it made my skin crawl a little..." He shivered a little at that.

"Anyway, the goal of my current campaign is to throw down Asmodeus, except, you know, the PCs have to crawl through Glasya's minions, and fight Mephistopheles and Levistus's servants, who wish to claim the throne of Hell. I mean, Asmodeus still smacked Baalzebul and Mephistopheles around like they were punks, but where's the fun if they can't retaliate and take his power? Or maybe one of the PCs gets a little to greedy for power, and turns on his/her allies right as Asmodeus dies, and takes over Hell! Come on, did Raistlin not teach us anything? I mean, yeah, he got beaten down, but still..."
"Don't ask me about the way I type, at best, I'll ignore you (or have no intention of actually reading the thread I posted in again). If I respond, it will probably be sarcastic. I could explain it here, but really, why should I? I am asked often, and usually in a rude and condescending manner, and so, giving the answer here would only serve to satisfy the curiosity of a bunch of stupid people I don't care to grant that benefit. Also, if it annoys you, just remember that somewhere out there, my spirits were lifted, because I really like annoying people that are close-minded enough to be annoyed by something as minor as that; not to mention, there are a good number of people on the internet who can't even bother to learn to write American English (or any other form of English, I can't make criticisms about languages in which I am not proficient) properly (people for whom it is their first language), and that is far more irritating, yet commonly accepted."
Orcus is not a god, he is a demon prince. Orcus is not even immortal but he has killed a god, his weapon is the remains of a god. Same thing with the demon lord Yeenoghu, he has killed at least one god because his flail is made of the gods remains. This is in the dragon magazine. From what I understand is gods were never portrayed as all powerful but instead more limited like the ancient Greek gods. The designers of 4E realized that some people would want to fight gods so that allowed for it to happen. If you think that a god is beyond the capabilities of a PC then you should have gods be too powerful to challenge. You should also have Orcus be unchallengeable because he has killed and fought gods, so saying a player could fight Orcus is saying they can fight a god. Also you should get rid of the Epic paths or just end you game at level 20.

If someone else wishes to have a god be the final boss in their campaign, then that shouldn't bother anybody because if you don't agree with what the DM is planning then you don't need to play with that DM.

Resident Grouch and Corrupting Influence A Monster Appears I'm Black and Blue how 'bout you?

Y'know, I wonder if he'd actually thought about the story opportunities for epic play that involve taking down some errant minor deity and then having the party go strait from delving in planar dungeons right into the politics of a pantheon of gods?
I could have sworn in 1st edition D&D that there were books dealing combat vs the gods... Hmmm. does Legends and Lore and Deities and Demigods ring a bell?

RyukaTana, that seems to be a good idea as far as being able to fight a god and be level 30. although I wonder that if there are to make Moradin a level 38 then I also wonder if there well be a supplementary book that well add on another tier to allow people too become level 40s and literally become gods, sort of the way Vecna did, by becoming extremely powerful. If this is true then Deinos, the OP, may not need to Flesh out the Raven Queen because She may appear in a book in a couple of years.

Resident Grouch and Corrupting Influence A Monster Appears I'm Black and Blue how 'bout you?

We already have confirmation of a "Deities and Demigods" book will be coming eventually, and every version of the De&De books so far have presented combat stats for deities, I would be hurt of the new core pantheon was not presented. Yeah, I may never use them, but I love having he option available to me.
Lets try and get back to the stating of the Raven Queen.

I feel she should be a controller template. Being a goddess of fate she should have the ability to ad bonuses and give penalties. This said, she should also have a couple of Angelic or Shadar-kai servants near by that are level 30. She could have an aura that gives them a bonus to defenses and attack for being much lower in level then she is.

She opposes hubris, so I would think she should have a recharging attack that is a sort of one hit blow like Orcus' Touch of Death attack. She should also have trigger attacks that trigger when someone tries to affect her with a status ailment.

She should maybe also have a sort of ability like the Shadar-kai Shadow Jaunt but hers should be 3 to 4 times the distance and rechargeable.

Also with her connection to death maybe her fortitude defense should be her highest defense. Maybe it would be hard to affect her mind or body but she isn't to dexterous nor heavily armored. She could make up for the lack of armor by teleporting away from the defenders and appear next to the wizard to bop him in the head.

These are some of the vague outlines I have for the Raven Queen.

Side Note: A god should be bound in to a physical form before they can be killed unless in your campaign gods are just extremely powerful mortals. Also you should think about the question "Could a god be brought back to life if Their body parts were put back together?" Osiris was cut into pieces and then later put back together. Maybe to truly kill a god you must also destroy its remains which should require rituals just as powerful as the one(s) to bind the god to a physical form.

Resident Grouch and Corrupting Influence A Monster Appears I'm Black and Blue how 'bout you?

Side Note: A god should be bound in to a physical form before they can be killed

They can be defeated in combat at any time, if you can beat a level 31-40 (my opinion as to the "deific tier") solo that is. They would not suffer Final Destruction (as Asmodeus's god did), however. When I said "dead" I mean in terms of her as a combatant, she will eventually rejuvenate, probably with a permanent scar of some sort (this sort of thing happens every now and again, ie Morgoth, Tyr, Odin, Osiris etc.).

The characters will FACE the Raven Queen. I don't necessarily expect them to win or even survive, especially since she won't be alone. But PCs can be VERY resourceful. Also, I plan on the chars hanging around at level 30 for some time, instead of the campaign ending at that level. A bunch of rezz potions, and some allied monsters, may allow them to survive, or maybe not. We'll see.

You might be wondering why the characters will fight her. Long story short, she finds mortal beings becoming immortal extremely offensive and as such her agents seek the downfall of most beings who would seek to ascend to immortality. Anything that would stem the tide of souls passing through the Shadowfell is a contradiction of everything she stands for. They are somewhat selective in that belief for instance, ascending to immortality as a sorrowsworn deathlord in her service is 100% fine.

The characters also insulted her by narrowly preventing the destruction of the vampire race; her most powerful material plane servants, the Fraternity of Ashes, had painstakingly destroyed all but one Vampire Lord, and with them gone all that would remain are weak and sterile Spawn. But the player characters screwed that up for them.

This last vampire was Belo Caritas, of the race of devas that were the first vampires; these devas were originally in the service of the Raven Queen, but desired immortality after they lost faith in the existence of the afterlife; they thought of themselves as simply shepherding lost souls to an afterlife of blissful paradise, but came to belief that what they thought was their holy work, was just murder, condemning souls to Oblivion (as none know what happens to a soul after the 30 day stay in the Shadowfell). The Fraternity of Ashes were unable to kill him, so instead they buried him under an avalanche inside his own stronghold, and he eventually impaled himself on a spear to escape the solitude (using the idea that a stake renders a vampire dormant until removed). Though not malevolent, he also lacked a copy of the ritual that creates new vampire lords.

Well I could ramble all night, but....

And an EXCELLENT monster entry, Hazard. I will be using that. Love her auras and Death Sentence.

Not having her be a controller, for two reasons. One is as homage to death spells and death gods as being infamous for blasting characters into oblivion rapidly, and two is because I want the fight to have as quick a resolution as possible (when it comes to fighting something that powerful), whether its in TPK or victory.
Doesn't the Raven Queen hate the undead and with the destruction of all undead. Being undead is like being immortal as in you live much longer then intended.

Well, any way I hope you got the information you needed to stat out the Raven Queen.

Resident Grouch and Corrupting Influence A Monster Appears I'm Black and Blue how 'bout you?

Doesn't the Raven Queen hate the undead and with the destruction of all undead. Being undead is like being immortal as in you live much longer then intended.

Well, any way I hope you got the information you needed to stat out the Raven Queen.

If she's like most neutral death gods from D&D, she hates willing undead who do it to force their way past the cycle of life, however does not mind utility uses of defiled corpses as long as they are buried normally after use.
Doesn't the Raven Queen hate the undead and with the destruction of all undead. Being undead is like being immortal as in you live much longer then intended.

Being undead IS being immortal, which is why saving Belo Caritas angered her. That being said, the Monster Manual has death knights working for sorrowsworn, so I feel that she will still have some undead in her service. Death knights and death lords go well together. I plan on having her, in particular, have a mean Cleric Deathlord with Seal of Binding.
I kind of like the idea of a god, or anything around level 38-40, as an opponent. It means that even the most epic of mortal heroes normally can't fight a being of that power, but perhaps a group of epic heroes, armed with the weapons of the gods and accompanied by amazingly powerful allies, could have some chance of defeating it.

A level 34 encounter (for example, Orcus with minions) is about the limit of a normal 30th level campaign, but given even more powers beyond that, such as artifacts and powerful monster allies, and a large party, a level 40 encounter could be defeatable. Level 40 monsters are even given XP totals in the first three core books. Clearly the new system is intended to allow players to fight the gods, at the highest level of play with the best equipment in existance.

I don't really have anything to contribute as to the actual stats. It looks like someone else has written up some pretty good ones. But it's a pretty sweet idea.

To arguments against fighting gods: Being powerful does not make a power gamer. Wanting power far above good story and roleplaying does. What if the player earned it all, through hardship and amazing stories and great roleplaying, they made their way from level 1, where they were simple heroes, battling tyrants and fending off incroaching monsters, up to level 11, where they became paragons of the mortal world. There they battled foul monsters and toppled empires. They saved the world from destruction, bringing them to level 21. They became epic, battling the fiercest of dragons, and the most dangerous of enemies. They prevented planar catastophies and their names were known across the world. They reached the pinical of mortal perfection, and brough down even a demon lord of the Abyss. Through it all, they made allies, they gained weapons. Nothing was handed to them. They had to fight for what they had, always. Whatever power ruled the universe would not let them off easy. They lost friends. Towns, cities, nations, filled with good people, were ruined. But they did what they could, saved who they had the power to save, and slowly they became the mightiest of heroes, the hope of all the world. Now, with the most loyal and powerful of their allies by their sides, and with the weapons and powers they had won through hardship and perseverance, they face the most dangerous foe that has ever been. A dark goddess of neigh immesurable power. May the light of their hearts and the experiences of the past guide them to victory, for if they fail, all will be lost...

Who here thinks that sounds like a game full of powergamers, bad roleplaying, and stupid plots designed to hand players too much power?
*Demon Princes are generally corrupted Primordials and so are on a level comparable to deities. I'm curious as to whether Primordials in general are weaker than Gods or if Primordials are to Melkor what Demon Princes are to Morgoth. Not 100% sure about all that and it can be argued various ways.

MCL,

Deinos

The Primordials that are still active are weaker than the Gods, though still rivals. The great Primordials are all dead or sleeping (read: imprisoned), though they were more powerful than the gods on a 1:1 basis, which is why the gods had to break off into parties to defeat them. It's also what makes Io's fight against Erek-Hus so significant: Io thought he could take him alone and almost did. It was a big deal, the rest of the gods called him crazy, so on so forth. Well, Erek-Hus split Io in half, but then got schooled by Tiamat and Bahamut as they rose from Io's corpse.



Deinos/Hazar84: I'd toss in a movement ability for each phase, something along the lines of:

Wings of the Butterfly (move, recharge 4, 5, 6; only when not bloodied)
Close burst 3: +40 vs Fort - 2d6 Force damage and pushed 3; Miss half damage and no push; The Raven Queen Teleports 10.

Wings of the Raven (move, recharge 4, 5, 6; only when bloodied)
Close burst 3: +40 vs. Fort - Targets are launched 40 feet in the air and fall normally; Miss targets are launched 20 feet; The Raven queen teleports 10.

One of the biggest challenges Solo targets face is the ability to get surrounded. Wings of the Butterfly doesn't do a lot extra, but the push works with having Sorrowsworn around to take advantage of the change in the battlefield. The second phase ability has a good chance at knocking a target prone from the fall, which prevents them from just closing distance with her again on the next round.

It's late at night so my home-brew-fu is weak, but I'm digging the overall idea.


As for the meta-discussion about "why" the simple answer is "because" followed shortly with "why not?" The gods of D&D aren't monotheistic Gods. They aren't omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent. They don't even ultimately know what happens to most departed souls, and they didn't create the world. An omnipotent God, like the Judeo-Christian YWH, has no peer, equal, or challenger. The relevant texts indicate that YWH could undo Satan with His will, but doesn't because it's all part of the grand plan. If the D&D pantheon were equally omni-omni then the Abyss wouldn't exist, they would just will it out of existence. Godhood in the D&D world is, instead, a level of power and ascension. The D&D gods are special in the same way that a Navy Seal could kick my ass. Their strength and power isn't some new thing unlike what the PCs have been wielding for 30 levels, they just have a lot more of it than the PCs.

In the desert
I saw a creature, naked, bestial,
who, squatting upon the ground,
held his heart in his hands, and ate of it.
I said, "is it good, friend?"
"It is bitter – bitter," he answered;
"but I like it,
"beacuase it is bitter,
"and because it is my heart."

I just wanted to point out something from the DMG for anybody who says that the PCs aren't supposed to fight gods:

This campaign theme suggests an escalating conflict against increasingly powerful servants of the characters’ divine enemy. Ultimately, the party could face an evil god directly or play a pivotal role in a battle between gods. However you plan it, such a scenario needs to emphasize the characters’ importance—watching helplessly on the sidelines while two gods duke it out isn’t a fun or satisfying conclusion to a campaign. Perhaps Bane has imprisoned Bahamut, and the only way the characters can defeat him is to join together into a single, mighty avatar of Bahamut that combines their own abilities with an infusion of divine power. Some evil gods (such as Tiamat, Torog, and Zehir) are within the reach of 30th-level characters, who can win a final, epic struggle by themselves.

The emphasis is mine, but it clearly states that player characters can defeat gods in combat.
As with any crazy-level monster, this totally needs playtesting before you perform the actual fight. It'd suck to get to this awesome end of an epic campaign and have the final encounter be too easy or too hard with some weird exploits.

I wonder what merit there would be in setting up "monster test strike teams" or pregen parties of various levels for purposes of playtesting? I'll bet some groups would love this sort of "gauntlet/arena" approach, especially when the actual game needs a breather (or somebody can't make it, etc. etc.)

In any case, I'm lovin' the non-troll (and properly whitespaced) portions of this thread.

Deinos, are you looking also for campaign ideas leading up to this final battle? Or just final battle stats?

I love the idea of a bunch of shadar-kai throwing themselves onto their own blades, their quickly-withering husks giving birth to a new Raven Queen.

I'll also suggest powers evocative of her name: Summoning large raven swarms, or simply powers with ravens flying around as flavor.

Lastly, don't forget about the environment. The battle map for this should be just as awesome as the Queen herself. What kind of environment were you hoping for during the fight?
As with any crazy-level monster, this totally needs playtesting before you perform the actual fight. It'd suck to get to this awesome end of an epic campaign and have the final encounter be too easy or too hard with some weird exploits.

I wonder what merit there would be in setting up "monster test strike teams" or pregen parties of various levels for purposes of playtesting? I'll bet some groups would love this sort of "gauntlet/arena" approach, especially when the actual game needs a breather (or somebody can't make it, etc. etc.)

That would be ideal, but it'll never happen, for some reason; WotC prefers to keep their monster designing in-house.

In any case, I'm lovin' the non-troll (and properly whitespaced) portions of this thread.

As am I.

Lastly, don't forget about the environment. The battle map for this should be just as awesome as the Queen herself. What kind of environment were you hoping for during the fight?

Wherever the Raven Queen chooses, naturally.
Jaxgaret, I mean community-driven monster testing for fan-made stuff, like the Raven Queen here. I'm assuming the folks at Wizards will do some playtesting before throwing a monster like this to the public.
Just on a side note, have the PCs be watched by a Ravens throughout the campaign, these ravens may or may not be the eyes and ears of the Raven Queen herself.

What would be especially rewarding for one player is to have a player who has the demigod epic destiny replace the Raven Queen upon her defeat (assuming she is defeated good and proper). This ties the players more to the campaign world and they may enjoy having a former PC as the new god of death in the world when they roll up new characters, perhaps with one of the players playing a cleric of the Raven (King, Prince, Princess, Queen II, whatever).
i dont like the idea of statting out a god personally. But we will be playing with it in effect since i always run RAW games.

Having said that i think level 38 solo skirmisher or lurker is what u want for the raven queen.
Remember that the Raven Queen is the patron of winter. It would be fitting if she had an attack that did cold damage and possibly slows the target.

The idea for using ravens is good but what about having the first part of the battle She could be in raven form. In raven form she could be a lurker. This should work fine because I imagine the sky to the shadowfell being dark so a raven should be able to surprise people.

Once this form is defeated She would transform to her humanoid form. In this form she could be the skirmisher. Make sure She moves around a lot and has an ability that makes attacks do more damage when she moves, or she could have a higher defense if she moves enough.

If you make the Raven Queen a level 34 in each form then it should come out to being a CR 38 fight. It is essentially two fights back to back. This should help to keep the group on their feet because the combat tactics should change throughout combat. This also makes the encounter about twice as hard as Orcus.

Resident Grouch and Corrupting Influence A Monster Appears I'm Black and Blue how 'bout you?

You want to stat the Raven Queen so you can have a big throwdown between her and Orcus at the end of the campaign, with the PC's in the middle. This isn't even hard.
During the fight, you might consider manipulating the environment correctly to allow the PCs a win, or dramatic loss.
I'm imagining some nice archaic devices. Maybe when a character is bloodied, the blood drops to the floor and ignites a path on the ground that slowly begins to move?

Maybe the scenery constantly shifts and shimmers(On a 3-4 round basis) to places the PCs have been in dungeons before, to allow them to take advantage of grounds they already know the secrets of.

My current favourite of ideas I've had though, is to do with her patronage of winter. Trap the players in a constantly shifting maze of ice. The battlefield begins flat, but then walls of ice shoot from the ground, creating a labyrinth, which then alters every round or so. Maybe cut the players off from eachother, so they have to face something single-handedly.

I really like the idea, seems like an epic conclusion to a campaign.
Orcus is not a god, he is a demon prince. Orcus is not even immortal but he has killed a god, his weapon is the remains of a god. Same thing with the demon lord Yeenoghu, he has killed at least one god because his flail is made of the gods remains. This is in the dragon magazine.

Both Orcus and Yeenoghu are immortal (as in having an infinite lifespan if not killed through violence. They do not have the immortal subtype which in 4e simply means "creature from the astral plane" and many non-gods have this subtype) and also both of them are Primordials ("... a god by any other name ....").

In previous editions both of them also were true deities.
Both Orcus and Yeenoghu are immortal (as in having an infinite lifespan if not killed through violence. They do not have the immortal subtype which in 4e simply means "creature from the astral plane" and many non-gods have this subtype) and also both of them are Primordials ("... a god by any other name ....").

In previous editions both of them also were true deities.

I know that they are immortal, I was trying to explain to juggalo78 that they are not listed as gods but have killed them. juggalo78 seemed to be under the impression that gods are untouchable by anything that isn't a god. I had also used examples of gods being touchable by mentioning Vecna, who was once a mortal man, and that it has been written into the core books that a mortal can become a god by taking the demigod epic destiny.

Also if you do allow for Orcus to slay a god, which juggalo78 was fine with, then Orcus, by juggalo78's reasoning, should be made untouchable. He didn't see Orcus as untouchable but believed that being able to fight Orcus should be enough to quench one's thirst for power and glory.

Does that help clarify my statement?

Resident Grouch and Corrupting Influence A Monster Appears I'm Black and Blue how 'bout you?

She is a god so even if She is defeated in battle she still isn't dead. Her physical form is just an aspect. She may be shocked for a while but within a few days or years She could just summon up a new aspect. In order to defeat Her the PCs should actually use a ritual to bind Her into Her aspect.

oooo let them defeat her, while she takes a break no one dies for 1 year, the world falls into chaos as people ar brutaly attacked but never go below 0 hp, the sick agonize for months waiting for sweat release, heads and headless soliders wander the battlefield fighting wars long since no longer worth fighting for. Livestock can no longer be butchered and the mutton on your table still wiggles on the plate trying to run away.
oooo let them defeat her, while she takes a break no one dies for 1 year, the world falls into chaos as people ar brutaly attacked but never go below 0 hp, the sick agonize for months waiting for sweat release, heads and headless soliders wander the battlefield fighting wars long since no longer worth fighting for. Livestock can no longer be butchered and the mutton on your table still wiggles on the plate trying to run away.

You have it all wrong. You have to destroy the angel of death to do all of that.
I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling, baiting, flaming, and thread disruption are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php
.... you really seem to hate the raven queen because of the death thing dont you? I'm sorry, but I just read your first post and it just doesn't seem right, how exactly do you plan to do this? Considering Death=Life in a long run. A Wise man once said, is no one died from Old Age or Sickness, everything would die from starvation. What exactly does the part seek to do other then destroy the balance of life itself?

Sorry for ranting on like that, just my beleif. As for the "He minions fall and she comes to life." Realy doesn't sound like her, unles you plan on makeing her into evil somehow [dont see how sence death comes to all, not matter what.]

You got my interest peeked in this, mind PM'ing me what you plan on doing with this? Just wondering because if you destroy death, you also destroy Life, creating eternal missury and dread.
Reason I'm having her be artillery and not a lurker or skirmisher is because nothing of her appearance suggests any kind of physical attack. And. Seriously. Can you imagine how obnoxious a level 38 artillery would be?

You got my interest peeked in this, mind PM'ing me what you plan on doing with this? Just wondering because if you destroy death, you also destroy Life, creating eternal missury and dread.

Not planning on the characters killing her for good, because I've never had the PCs kill a god in my campaigns. I've had them kill an avatar or two. Someone suggested her minions would suicide to rezz her, which is what I will use, but I mean this in the sense of her being instantaneously returned to the fight.

A god's manifestation, is just one part of the greater whole that is the deity itself. That greater whole is not entirely anthropomorphic and not entirely sentient; a cleric or paladin can still go rogue and retain his powers, and though they come from the deity, the deity cannot stop them simply by willing it.

As to her being "evil." No I don't think she's evil, in 4E, unaligned = I'm just doing my job, evil = doing it to profit myself, chaotic evil = doing it for the lulz. But if you read what her servants are like, the shadar-kai and the sorrowsworn, you probably would realize that the means of an unaligned can be just as bad as an evil being, its just the ends that differ. Though her "ends" are The End, that everything must die.

I don't believe that snuffing the Raven Queen permanently would "destroy death," death is the absence of life. Presumably, even when there were just Primordials and elementals, they could still die or be destroyed. It would certainly change the nature of death in some way, but even undead or constructs can be destroyed by enough damage. Nor would killing Pelor blot out the sun. It would certainly cause an eclipse. When Orcus died, it didn't cause undead to disintegrate or anything.

In my campaign, the idea is that at one point, there were necromancers that could effortlessly raise armies of undead. People dead for years could be resurrected. Vampires and dracoliches could return from death time and time again, and the touch of many forms of undead would blast someone's soul, weakening it forever, and most undead could effortlessly create more of themselves. An incorporeal undead couldn't even be harmed except by magic weapons. Everyone who died a worshipper of a god, would go to that person's plane. (hint: that's how it worked in prior editions)

Now, necromancy is almost entirely gone, most undead are "sterile" and far less dangerous, and the vast majority of souls slip into oblivion within a month's time; deities can only rescue a handful of their followers, and shepherd them to their domain. (hint: that's how it works in 4E)

Is that better or worse? The idea in my campaign is that generally, the former was due to having an "unmoderated" afterlife. The Raven Queen decided that only she was qualified, and while this stemmed the tide of the undead, its rare that she shares souls with the other gods, even of their own followers, keeping most for an unknown purpose.

Deinos, are you looking also for campaign ideas leading up to this final battle? Or just final battle stats?

I'm open to any suggestions.

I'll also suggest powers evocative of her name: Summoning large raven swarms, or simply powers with ravens flying around as flavor.

I just plan on having Deathraven Swarms join the fight now and again.

Lastly, don't forget about the environment. The battle map for this should be just as awesome as the Queen herself. What kind of environment were you hoping for during the fight?

Good question. I'm thinking some sort of massive tower that slowly collapses more and more as both parties unleash xbawks hueg powers, or such. But the party's only level 9 so far, so it'll be awhile. The idea is

What would be especially rewarding for one player is to have a player who has the demigod epic destiny replace the Raven Queen upon her defeat

I like high powered campaigns, but more in terms of power level rather than campaign impact. To me, its already shocking enough that PCs are SUPPOSED to become demigods at the end... I've run, I don't know, five or so? 4-7 probably, campaigns that completed, but I've never had divine ascension. So the idea is that simply dealing her a wound (killing her manifestation), rather than killing her forever, is still xbawks hueg. Oh and becoming demigods and so forth.

A PC becoming the personification of Death is way too hueg for my tastes... I'd think of even ascendant demigods as not even of instantly being that powerful. even though I'm 100% certain that killing a god doesn't disrupt its portfolio. If you kill Orcus, does that mean no more vampires and liches? That'd be a little extreme.