Dragon PC's

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I don't know if this has been posted in forever, and I know it might be a little inappropriate, but I really loved the notion of playing as dragons in both 2e's Council of Wyrms and the Dragon Magazine articles (320, 332) for 3e.

Has anyone set about trying to kit out Dragons as PC's for 4th thus far? Was this going to be included in the expanded materials on dragons in future books?
I'm on that one next. We play them all the time but I'm working on something right now and haven't had the time to really look at dragons. I'll get back to you.
Your main issue is going to be dealing with breath weapon (making it an encounter power isn't entirely satisfactory, although you could boost it with racial feats), size (I'm not sure if 4e HAS size modifiers: you could fix most of the issues with an alternate-form power, but that would raise a whole bunch more issues: see next), and frightful presence (that could be left as an encounter power, but then the dragon would have three powers - the most power-laden race currently is the drow, with two, and those are a one-or-the-other situation: you could make it so that they can use EITHER breath weapon or frightful presence, but that would similarly be a bit unsatisfactory). The dragon's vast panoply of attacks aren't an issue - most class powers are usable with natural weapons, although there'd have to be a caveat that claws count as light blades for purposes of rogue powers.

Of course, it goes without saying that you'd be dealing with Young dragons only - you couldn't really do an Adult without stretching the verisimilitude of how tough they are in comparison (since you'd be using class hit points instead of monster hit points), and of course, other age categories are simply too big.
The only problem will be that only the chromatic dragons are in 4e so that I know of. I make monster classes for 3.5 all the time. Most of their abilities are in the MM so it would just be making a level table and and then putting that to the dragon they wanted. No I don't think there are size mods and fly has changed all together. I'll take a look and see for sure. Could be just simple answer.

Edit: I might be able to. Which dragon were you thinking about? It would have to a dragon in the 4e MM! And Give me a few days and I'll post it on here.
I've actually been considering a Council of Wyrms style CS as my next project (I'm currently working on a different CS) with Dragons being both a Race and class combinations with the classes having a requirement of being of the dragon race, I'll post updates as things develop
That makes it easy in 4e. There are no monster HD or LA. Just make them a race. One for each dragon. Give bonuses to the abilities that their powers run off of. Assign levels to the powers so they get them auto at those level and start them off with the breath weapon and recharge ability. If you want to get fancy make an age table (not needed) and give the powers at certain age levels.
I know this sounds a little odd, but after looking at the dragons, I think the best way to build a dragon PC is by borrowing the Multiclass rules. Start off with the basic Dragon (+2 to two stats, +2 to Athletics and Perception, darkvision, quadruped [+25% carrying capacity, but no weapons except unarmed), bite and claw [see the monk adaptation for good rules for these], natural armor [again, see the monk adaptation for good rules], and an encounter power for a breath weapon [steal from the dragonborn]), then give four feats and a paragon path.

Feat 1 - Claw, Claw, Bite/gore (encounter)
Feat 2 - Rapid Breath (change breath weapon to a recharge 5/6, 4th level req)
Feat 3 - Wings (Fly (hover) 6 replacing daily power, 8th level req)
Feat 4 - Imp. Wings (overland flight 8 replacing utility power, 10th level req)

Paragon Path
11 - Claw, Claw, Bite as at-will power
11 - Bloodied and Action Point Breath Weapon recharge (when bloodied, or when you spend an action point to gain an additional action, your breath weapon recharges)
16 - large size
enc 11 - frightful presence
util 12 - overland flight 12, fly (hover) 8
daily 20 - 19th level or lower daily power from own class

Not sure what to do with the daily paragon power, so I just grabbed something from the multi-class list. Someone else could come up with something for this.
Joseph Scharfenberg -- "Propaganda: What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies right to our faces." - demotivator -- I lost my obligatory Backstabbist quotes. I promise to find them, really.
Thank you for all the replies, I'm really interested in what kind of complete versions people have come up with, it would be great to be able to present something to the race compendium concerning the actual full blooded dragons.

I think the idea of having them represent both a race and class is a good idea, otherwise, how could one handle all their capabilities?

Concerning the posts asking which dragons in specific I was interested in, well, given that the good dragons are not currently in print, and to give variety (in a council of wyrms style game) I suppose it would really be all of them, with the most interest to probably the red. Thanks, Ace of Time.

I'm also very interested as to what you concoct as time goes on, jedrious; Council of Wyrms was such a neat conception all those years ago, perhaps not really great for low level campaigns, but such an adventuring party was really a force to be reckoned with in the campaign world (at least in 2ed =D).

I haven't taken a look at the monk adaptation rules yet, eh, I'm kind of daft about message boards, where could I find the ones you reference nobodez_here? Thank you for your imput.

I have to admit, I half thought that I'd be told to back down and just play/have others play the dragonborn, thanks for everything guys. I'll keep checking in to see what you've come up with for your games.
I have to admit, I half thought that I'd be told to back down and just play/have others play the dragonborn.

Well, in a pinch, you could just take the stats for dragonborn, reflavor them as winged quadrupeds, homebrew some racial feats to grant more draconic characteristics as time goes on, and call it a wyrmling dragon. It's hardly an elegant solution, but it's hardly the worst.

What would be best is to first isolate exactly what players want from a dragon PC - knowing that would help weed out those elements of dragon mechanics that aren't necessary. For me, it would be simple: all I'd be looking for is the 'I'm a dragon, fear me you pathetic mortals' factor. Which can largely be done without stats, really...
That's also part of the problem. In previous editions, my players basically wanted to be a dragon which would advance in age through experience, monster levels only basically. Others wanted to be a dragon racially, but be more of a caster, which led to me altering those rules to create somewhat of a hybrid between them, while retaining the mechanic of advancing age categories via levels.

I have to admit, I'm not really taking to the new rules well, and am not really confident in my own conversions, or kutzy attempts as of yet, so I wanted to ask the community for help.

I think what would serve best is less fluff, and more of the actual mechanics, the draconomicon's entries concerning size, porportion, and behaviors of the dragons I can still use, but the rules for them as pc's...

Ultimately, the creations presented and possible are what I'm most interested in, not so much the quick fixes, when the theme works, I've had people play all sorts of things in the past, just skinned as humans, or dwarves, or what have you. I'm more interested in the rules for how the pc would work as a straight dragon, not a skinned dragonborn. Your method is tried and true, though, don't get me wrong, I'm not actually running for some time, so I've got the time to seek additional solutions.
4e doesn't have monster level in the same way 3.5 did. If your going to be a dragon PC. You have to have your DM make you a race form of them. The entries in the MM4e are based on monster roles. They take a base race and change it into a monster. There is no real basis to convert the entry over to a race. You just have to pick two abilities that they use their powers with and go from there. So the real question is do you want them to play a race dragon form or a monster dragon. I can make both just need to know which one.
I can honestly say I wouldn't mind seeing either the race or the monster. I must admit, I'm not sure what the monster would look like, wouldn't it just be an entry from the mm? I may be reading your post incorrectly. I hate to answer "Both please!" but I have to say I can't choose.

I'll do us all a favor and pound the rules into my head.
By the sounds of it, you want a way to advance either by type or by class. I don't think there's any way of modeling that in 4e purely by race alone: however, in these circumstances, reinventing the 'monster class' concept would be justified. That way a player could either advance by type with a smattering of class abilities if they wanted, or by class with a limited selection of extended racial powers.

I've been planning to do a d20 conversion of FFG's Fireborn for a while - I might look into that as a basis for dragon characters.
I can honestly say I wouldn't mind seeing either the race or the monster. I must admit, I'm not sure what the monster would look like, wouldn't it just be an entry from the mm? I may be reading your post incorrectly. I hate to answer "Both please!" but I have to say I can't choose.

I'll do us all a favor and pound the rules into my head.

Ok, Idea I'm planning on for my CS


1 Racial Entry for each color of dragon

They'll have Claws and a Bite that count as basic attacks


I'll be making 5 classes that require being a True Dragon


Draconic Lurker, Draconic Skirmisher, Draconic Soldier, Draconic Controller, Draconic Brute


Will be renamed of course


Some class powers with be Breath abilities dealing damage appropriate to Dragon's element

Each class will have differing abilities based on which Monster Role they're emulating
Suggestions
-Be careful with those multiple attacks dude.
-Is there a mechaninc for getting Magic +3 claws?
1. If not you might want to invent one
-Armor proficiency (Scale)
1. Seriously that's gonna be another big issue
2. Actually gear in general is gonna have to be carefully looked at


Looking at the MM each dragon possesses a couple of distinct powers that while there is variation, the general pattern exist

three basic attacks: 2 claws and a bite (or gore)

A breath weapon of a specific element

a few powers related to said element

some sort of tail attack as a reaction power

and frightful presence

in addition to possibly a trick or two unique to the breed


Condensed for player versions

Weapons 2 claws and a Bite (or gore for blues)
-Powers to use them otherwise your wasting your time
-Method to enchant or simulate enchant or simply make them so awesome it doesn't matter

Armor
-Actually easier since you can simply say drags don't wear armor and give them an increasing armor bonus as an ability (either racial or class), or let them wear armor, but the ability doesn't stack.

Breath Weapon
-Basically start with the dragon born ability, take away the option to choose your energy type and targeted defense , and maybe toss on a minor effect or turn it into a recharge power in exchange, while offering new feats and powers that improve and or manipulate it.

Tail Reaction
- the exact trigger should be based on type

Size & Frightful presence
I don't know quite what to do here

Flight may end up being the racial power.
I'll do one at first just to show the difference. Give me a day or two because I have a game today and can't do it right now. You will have to let your players know ahead of time that once they pick which way there will be no going back.

The monster type will be a monster class. I'll leave the level for the abilities up to you people. If they choose the monster type then they can use the multiclass feats to get class things they like. Also monster type of dragons are solo and as such have times 4-5 more HP then normal so I think I'll make it with out the solo type on there.
Frightful presence could be an encounter power. Simply add it to the class's existing list of appropriate lv powers which you can select.
Just my

In response to the equipment issue, I like having dragons improve their natural weapons and armor as they level. So their claws and natural scales become +2 etc. automatically. Borrowing from the Council of Wyrms, levelling would require the accumulation of a classic draconic hoard so that they are essentially paying for their equipment like other adventurers, just not in a direct manner.

I always loved the hoard idea for dragons. It provides lots of adventure hooks and also necessitates the construction of a lair to hold it all as well as defenses for said lair. Good times.
We can come up with same feats that increase AC. Maybe a few pargons and epic level choices that open up armor boosting paths. Aside from that a monsters AC goes up +1 every level. So with the above the option and the up every level it should be OK.

Note: I don't think there is NA in 4e. Just look at kobolds. No bonus AC or anything and they had +1 NA.
Skrimisher

Level AC Other AC HP Attack VS AC Attack VS others<br /> 1 15 13 8+Con 5 3<br /> 2 16 14 8 6 4<br /> 3 16 14 8 6 4<br /> 4 17 15 8 7 5<br /> 5 17 15 8 7 5<br /> 6 18 16 8 8 6<br /> 7 18 16 8 8 6<br /> 8 19 17 8 9 7<br /> 9 19 17 8 9 7<br /> 10 20 18 8 10 8<br /> 11 20 18 8 10 8<br /> 12 21 19 8 11 9<br /> 13 21 19 8 11 9<br /> 14 22 20 8 12 10<br /> 15 22 20 8 12 10<br /> 16 23 21 8 13 11<br /> 17 23 21 8 13 11<br /> 18 24 22 8 14 12<br /> 19 24 22 8 14 12<br /> 20 25 23 8 15 13<br /> 21 25 23 8 15 13<br /> 22 26 24 8 16 14<br /> 23 26 24 8 16 14<br /> 24 27 25 8 17 15<br /> 25 27 25 8 17 15<br /> 26 28 26 8 18 16<br /> 27 28 26 8 18 16<br /> 28 29 27 8 19 17<br /> 29 29 27 8 19 17<br /> 30 30 28 8 20 18

Init bonus:+2
Any four skills

Note: That ACs have the 10 and the level added already but not ability mods.

fixed:
Black Dragon

Abilitie bonus: +2str, +2 con
Size: large; 11th huge; 21th gargantuan Note: If you set age cats at levels up size at those levels.
speed: 7; fly7; swim 7
Vision: darkvision
Languages: Common; draconic
Skill bonuses:+2 preception; +10 stealth in shadows and under water

Breath MM for young and up. If you are setting age cats put damage ups on it. If you are setting certain levels as age cats then after they sleep and awaken they will get the damage ups.

Bloodied breath works the same as MM. (must gain as feat)

All powers work the same as MM entry for each age type. (Must gain as feat)

Resist: Acid 15; +5 per age
I just had a cool idea for dragons (and monks). Make a ritual that transfers the magic power of armor or weapons into natural armor or natural weapons. Heck, you could even make it a variant of the Magic Item ritual.
Joseph Scharfenberg -- "Propaganda: What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies right to our faces." - demotivator -- I lost my obligatory Backstabbist quotes. I promise to find them, really.
Ace... that table makes no sense

The Black dragon race is way over powered for first level maybe make some of those powers weaker and level them up? or use feats?

Here's one thing to consider

All Dragons are proficient with the Dragon Weapon Group

Claw +3 1d6 Offhand
Bite +2 1d8 Heavy Critical
Tail +2 1d10 Interrupt Powers Only

All Dragons have two claws a bite and a tail.


The transfer ritual =s awesome, Nobodez.
Ace... that table makes no sense

The Black dragon race is way over powered for first level maybe make some of those powers weaker and level them up? or use feats?

Here's one thing to consider

All Dragons are proficient with the Dragon Weapon Group

Claw +3 1d6 Offhand
Bite +2 1d8 Heavy Critical
Tail +2 1d10 Interrupt Powers Only

All Dragons have two claws a bite and a tail.


The transfer ritual =s awesome, Nobodez.

Added that you had to get them as a feat. Left resist because makes sense for them to have that already. What about the table is confusing to you? (so i can clear it up)

I think we can just add a dragon feat for each, Natural Weapon/s and armor, that lets them use the same magic item ritual as everyone else without making a new ritual. I would suggest at least the pargon tier.

Note again: That the monster builds work different then PC class do. Monster have higher attacks and ac. See page 174 4e DMG. I think that is the page.
Added that you had to get them as a feat. Left resist because makes sense for them to have that already. What about the table is confusing to you? (so i can clear it up)

Well, what does the table mean? It's got a list of what I can only assume (since it's mislabeled at such) to be AC and Defenses and Attacks vs. AC and Defenses. So, from looking at it, I'm guessing that a Skirmisher has a +2 bonus to AC above the other defenses and a +2 bonus on weapon attacks (usually vs. AC) over normal (Fort/Ref/Will defenses) attacks.

Also, for some reason, you've got the table going up by 1/lvl, rather than 1/2 levels (which is how 4e is supposed to work, right?).

I think the question is for why the table is there in the first place. What purpose does it serve in a discussion about Dragons at PCs? If this were a monster discussion, about making monsters, that'd make sense, but this is about adapting Dragons at PCs, not playing as monsters. I don't want to play a White Dragon skirmisher, I want to play a White Dragon Rogue.

Oh that note, make sure that the claws are considered light blades. That should take care off all the rogue/fighter problems.
Joseph Scharfenberg -- "Propaganda: What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies right to our faces." - demotivator -- I lost my obligatory Backstabbist quotes. I promise to find them, really.
I just want to pop in and say that I love the idea of making Dragons a PC race. And I don't been dragonish races, I mean DRAGONS.

Now, all one needs is a shapeshifting power so he can go between human form and dragon form, and there you go. Nice and awesome.

Actually, all kidding aside, if the dragon did have a shapeshift power then his dragon claws, dragon bite, dragon tail, dragon aura would be removed. And maybe even his breath weapon, though I would allow that to remain. hehe

Anyway, like I said above, I loved the idea of making dragon's PCs and I really enjoy watching as you guys do that.

++

My thoughts

A dragon race would have the two ability pluses. It would also have special powers which would probably be its claws, bite, two claw attack, tail, breath weapon, and emotional aura. Movement it would also have flight.

The damage of its breath weapon could be made to be similar to the Dragonborn's version, if you want compatibility.

I should also note that no other pc race has claws, teeth, or tail attacks.

I am wondering why can't we just take the Dragon monsters and reduce their levels using the rules the DMG gives us till we get to 1. Then at that we can figure out how we can adopt the numbers into a PC compatible format.

Another point I would like to breifly make. While I don't have a problem with feats making a dragon PC's abilities stronger - as would time - I do have a problem with not giving abilities without taking feats. The things I mentioned above are iconic to the dragon, and a pc of one should have it.

Also, dragons as monsters have a breath weapon as daily with recharge, that is not fair to PCs. I say they need to be encounter.
"What is loved...endures. What is built...endures. And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures." -Babylon 5 "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. It is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we becomes victims of the darkness." -Justice William O. Douglas
Well, what does the table mean? It's got a list of what I can only assume (since it's mislabeled at such) to be AC and Defenses and Attacks vs. AC and Defenses. So, from looking at it, I'm guessing that a Skirmisher has a +2 bonus to AC above the other defenses and a +2 bonus on weapon attacks (usually vs. AC) over normal (Fort/Ref/Will defenses) attacks.

Also, for some reason, you've got the table going up by 1/lvl, rather than 1/2 levels (which is how 4e is supposed to work, right?).

I think the question is for why the table is there in the first place. What purpose does it serve in a discussion about Dragons at PCs? If this were a monster discussion, about making monsters, that'd make sense, but this is about adapting Dragons at PCs, not playing as monsters. I don't want to play a White Dragon skirmisher, I want to play a White Dragon Rogue.

Oh that note, make sure that the claws are considered light blades. That should take care off all the rogue/fighter problems.

That is why I posted the race apart from the class. If you look on the page I posted you will see that monster stuff does infact go up 1/level. If some one was going to play a skirmisher dragon monster that IS how they would do it. They table follows left to right, Level, Armor class, the other defenses ( will/ref/fort), HP per level, Attack bonus on basic attacks, and Attack bonus on the other defenses (will/ref/fort).

That is why I asked the OP which they wanted. And I posted before and will again if I most. A DRAGON MONSTER DOESN"T FOLLOW PC RULES FOR LEVELING. I post the dragon monster role class for those that wanted to play dragon monsters and posted the races for those who wanted to play dragon PCs. If you did want a white dragon rogue you would use the white dragon races and level as a PC in that class.

EX: A dragon bite attack would use the "Attack VS AC" but his breath weapon would use "Attack VS others".

Note: I already stated the ACs already add in the 10 reg and the level of the monster.
EX: A 1st level dragon Skrimisher would have a reg AC of 10+1for level+4 bonus from the monster role= a total of 15 not including ability mods.

AGAIN PLEASE DO NOT JUDGE THE TABLE ON PC CLASSES AND RULES THEY WILL NOT MATCH BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO. Hope that helps.
I just want to pop in and say that I love the idea of making Dragons a PC race. And I don't been dragonish races, I mean DRAGONS.

Now, all one needs is a shapeshifting power so he can go between human form and dragon form, and there you go. Nice and awesome.

Actually, all kidding aside, if the dragon did have a shapeshift power then his dragon claws, dragon bite, dragon tail, dragon aura would be removed. And maybe even his breath weapon, though I would allow that to remain. hehe

Anyway, like I said above, I loved the idea of making dragon's PCs and I really enjoy watching as you guys do that.

++

My thoughts

A dragon race would have the two ability pluses. It would also have special powers which would probably be its claws, bite, two claw attack, tail, breath weapon, and emotional aura. Movement it would also have flight.

The damage of its breath weapon could be made to be similar to the Dragonborn's version, if you want compatibility.

I should also note that no other pc race has claws, teeth, or tail attacks.

I am wondering why can't we just take the Dragon monsters and reduce their levels using the rules the DMG gives us till we get to 1. Then at that we can figure out how we can adopt the numbers into a PC compatible format.

Another point I would like to breifly make. While I don't have a problem with feats making a dragon PC's abilities stronger - as would time - I do have a problem with not giving abilities without taking feats. The things I mentioned above are iconic to the dragon, and a pc of one should have it.

Also, dragons as monsters have a breath weapon as daily with recharge, that is not fair to PCs. I say they need to be encounter.

The Dragonborns breath damage is supposed to be a weaker form of the dragons breath. 1d12 is not that bad for damage at 1st. Also on page 184, I think, is a table for each type of monster and what they would get each level. If we do look at the rules for making monster you will see it is pointless to reduce to 1st as everything about the monster is determined randomly based on the type of monster and what powers it has. Don't know if I can post those on here but trust me they are random and the same for each monster and are no where close to how PCs are made. The table on page 184 gives you all that info. No reason to do it the hard way when the book tells you how they didi it already.

Edit: I'll just make it as if it was a pc class.
I know this sounds a little odd, but after looking at the dragons, I think the best way to build a dragon PC is by borrowing the Multiclass rules. Start off with the basic Dragon (+2 to two stats, +2 to Athletics and Perception, darkvision, quadruped [+25% carrying capacity, but no weapons except unarmed), bite and claw [see the monk adaptation for good rules for these], natural armor [again, see the monk adaptation for good rules], and an encounter power for a breath weapon [steal from the dragonborn]), then give four feats and a paragon path.

Feat 1 - Claw, Claw, Bite/gore (encounter)
Feat 2 - Rapid Breath (change breath weapon to a recharge 5/6, 4th level req)
Feat 3 - Wings (Fly (hover) 6 replacing daily power, 8th level req)
Feat 4 - Imp. Wings (overland flight 8 replacing utility power, 10th level req)

Paragon Path
11 - Claw, Claw, Bite as at-will power
11 - Bloodied and Action Point Breath Weapon recharge (when bloodied, or when you spend an action point to gain an additional action, your breath weapon recharges)
16 - large size
enc 11 - frightful presence
util 12 - overland flight 12, fly (hover) 8
daily 20 - 19th level or lower daily power from own class

Not sure what to do with the daily paragon power, so I just grabbed something from the multi-class list. Someone else could come up with something for this.

I like this idea, we'll need to make a different "basic dragon" for each color. And the other powers they have can be add to their class list (we need to find a coresponding level), so they can choose them normaly if they wish.
The Dragonborns breath damage is supposed to be a weaker form of the dragons breath. 1d12 is not that bad for damage at 1st. Also on page 184, I think, is a table for each type of monster and what they would get each level. If we do look at the rules for making monster you will see it is pointless to reduce to 1st as everything about the monster is determined randomly based on the type of monster and what powers it has. Don't know if I can post those on here but trust me they are random and the same for each monster and are no where close to how PCs are made. The table on page 184 gives you all that info. No reason to do it the hard way when the book tells you how they didi it already.

Edit: I'll just make it as if it was a pc class.

The problem with this idea is that it will probably work with normal mosters but no with elites, minions or solos. And even when a monster of level x is equivalent to a character of level x, they dont have as many powers, healing surges or action points, as a regular char.
Fixed the table. The races I posted is just a base. you are welcome to add to. I was thinking of adding the healing surge thing that dragon born get. What do you think?
The problem with this idea is that it will probably work with normal mosters but no with elites, minions or solos. And even when a monster of level x is equivalent to a character of level x, they dont have as many powers, healing surges or action points, as a regular char.

Well I can see a minion dragon so I will leave that off. Solo increases HP *4or5 depending on levels and +2 for 3 ACs. Most other things stay the same. And they get an encounter power as a at will power. Not much difference in the type for elite and solo. If they are going to use them as PCs anyway they will get healing surges and action points. I still say using the races and reg classes would be easier but to each his/her own.
I like this idea, we'll need to make a different "basic dragon" for each color. And the other powers they have can be add to their class list (we need to find a coresponding level), so they can choose them normaly if they wish.

If we can figure out the level for their powers we can link them to getting those at that level under the race entry. Then any dragon can use it for any class they want or role they want for monster classes.
I'm working on a race/class combo of my own, a generic one that can theoretically be applied to any dragon (including ones that haven't been republished yet) : just change the energy type associated with it.

Highlights:
Large size, but with the ability to turn into a specific Medium humanoid alternate form (in alternate form they lose all of their natural attacks, apart from their breath weapon).

Skin is equivalent to scale armor, and can be enchanted (for the normal cost of the Enchant ritual).

They don't get a tactical flight speed until the paragon tier (racial feat), but they do get overland flight (the rationale is that for a very young dragon, they're such clumsy fliers that they have to expend all their effort to achieve and maintain airspeed velocity: but, a number of lower-level powers will have 'glide' effects that let them use their wings for something during combat).

Breath weapon die is a d8, otherwise is identical to the dragonborn, but most of the class's powers are focused on various breath effects.

Their 2 basic natural attacks (claw and bite) are at-will powers that count as simple weapons (the claw counts as a light blade, for the benefit of dragons who take Rogue as a class). The at-will abilities of the dragon class augment the existing natural attacks and add two more (tail sweep and wing slap).

Frightful presence is a 1/encounter class ability, which a multiclass dragon gets 1/day.

Since it isn't possible to boost every ability score and there needed to be a nod to the vast intelligence of dragons and their fascination with riddles, I gave them a +2 bonus to skill checks made as part of a skill challenge involving riddles or puzzles.

Two build options: Battle Dragon gets Weapon Focus (bite, claw) as bonus feats, Mystic Dragon gets Ritual Casting.

Haven't started working on the actual powers yet, but give it time.
I a Dragon PC was forced to take a Dragon Class then he is not really on the same boat as everybody else.

I definitly understand what that their is a problem with trying to come up witha PC Dragon Race, but I don't thing how forcing the player to give up feats or class choices is a fair thing to do.

Like I said a Dragon has these special features:
Bite
Claws
Tail
Frightful Presence
Breath Weapon

Bite, Claws, and Tail are just at-will melee attacks. Its like the character has a couple of weapons that they can use.

The Frightful Presence and Breath Weapon are powers that they can use.

To me it seems that it would make more sense to try and come up with the amount of damage, the roll off and other such satistics for these weapons. Once that is done then the dragon class is pretty much done.

Ace of Time, I get your point about the Dragonborn Breath Weapon and your right, is is supposed to be a weaker form of the Dragon version.

So while we shouldn't use the base numbers we very much can use the method that they have for the dragonborn, just change them a little bit so that the dragon is a little more poweful.

++

For clarification, what are you guys trying to do.
*Make a Dragon PC using feats.
*Make a Dragon PC Race (and then enhancemable with feats)
*Make a Dragon Class that all Dragons have to take.

I disagree with one and three cause to me the first requires a lot of feat expenditures for the player to get things that are his due, and the third forces a character to play a Dragon Dragon rather than a Dragon Fighter or a Dragon Wizard.
"What is loved...endures. What is built...endures. And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures." -Babylon 5 "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. It is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we becomes victims of the darkness." -Justice William O. Douglas
I'm trying to make a dragon race that contains most of the basic abilities and can enhance those abilities with racial feats, and which then, if the player were so inclined, has a whole base class with all the trimmings devoted to enhancing its innate abilities still further, so that people could either dedicate to it (in order to achieve the pinnacle of draconic power without having to wait thousands of years to do it) or just pick up a few augments here and there through multiclassing to supplement a different class.

Diffusion of resources seems to me to be the most reasonable method of getting as many of those dragon abilities out there as possible without being horrifically overpowered or overcomplicated.

So, in answer to your question: all of the above.
For clarification, what are you guys trying to do.
*Make a Dragon PC using feats.
*Make a Dragon PC Race (and then enhancemable with feats)
*Make a Dragon Class that all Dragons have to take.

Not exactly

What we are trying to do is: (Or at leas only me)

*Make a Dragon PC Race, with only the bare minimum to be considered a Dragon (stat bonuses, skill bonuses, racial powers, probably bite and claw, and a lesser breath weapon, no flying yet)

Then create a series of racial feats that expand on that, same as any other PC race.
The Dagon PC Race can take any class it will, and can if it wish expand it's "dragon powers" by taking racial feats.

The Interesting part is that racial feats will come in two flavors:

Dragon Racial Feats that expand on the characteristics of the race. These probably include breath weapon feats, flying feats, bloodied feats and AC feats. (Same as other PC's races racial feats)
Multiclass Racial Feats This would instead tap on the powers the dragons from the MM have (Dragon power source if you like); exchanging them with class powers (same as others Multiclass feats).

This way I think if a player want to be a dragon PC, but he only cares for little else than it's natural weapons it can have it. Or if he instead want to have the entire dragon package (powers, flying, etc, etc) he can have it but it will cost him from his regular class powers and abilities.

About Dragon PC's powers not being exactly the same as monsters Dragons, just remember that PC's are supposed to be special.
Oh, also, I'm making the dragon class's power source Elemental, to maintain continuity with sorcerers (don't really know what the power source does yet, but... eh. It's not as if it really has that much of an effect on gameplay).

And on an unrelated note, I wish someone would smite these forums and stop them conking out right at the instant I hit the 'post' button...
I'm trying to make a dragon race that contains most of the basic abilities and can enhance those abilities with racial feats, and which then, if the player were so inclined, has a whole base class with all the trimmings devoted to enhancing its innate abilities still further, so that people could either dedicate to it (in order to achieve the pinnacle of draconic power without having to wait thousands of years to do it) or just pick up a few augments here and there through multiclassing to supplement a different class.

Diffusion of resources seems to me to be the most reasonable method of getting as many of those dragon abilities out there as possible without being horrifically overpowered or overcomplicated.

So, in answer to your question: all of the above.

I don't think we need a Dragon Class, a Dragon that has decided to go on adventure has in some way forgo its path as a true dragon if not he will became a Monster Manual Dragon.
Now while am the first to admit that things needs work, it is in no way a finished project, I thought I'd post my thoughts on a Dragon PC race.

Some of the numbers are to high, I know, I would like suggesstions on what they should be. In addition I have the Shapeshift Human thing because I like the concept.

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Dragon
*Ability Score: +2 [something], +2 [Something]
*Size: Large (11th Huge; 21th gargantuan)
*Speed: 6; fly 7
*Vision: Darkvision
*Languages: Common, Draconic
*Skill Bonuses: +2 Perception, +2 Arcana
*Dragon Attacks: When in dragon form you have access to the bite, claw, double attack, tail strike and frightful presence powers. All are encounter powers.
*Breath Weapon: No matter your form you can use Breath Weapon as an encounter power.
*Human Shapeshifting: You can use Human Shapeshifting as an encounter power.

Human Shapeshifting Special Racial Power
Through the mastery of magic and your natural abilities you have learned how to shapeshift from you majestic draconic form into that of a mostly normal human.
Encounter
Standard Action Personal
Effect: You form begins glowing and mutating as you change from your dragon form into your human form or from your human form back into your dragon form.

Breath Weapon Dragon Racial Power
No matter what form you are in you possess the mighty ability to blast raw energy from your mouth.
Encounter * Fire
Minor Action Close blast 5
Target: All creatures in area
Attack: Strength + 12 vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d12 + 4 fire damage
Increase to +27 bonus and 3d12 +8 fire damage at 11th level, and +35 bonus and 4d12 + 10 fire damage at 21st level.
Miss: Half Damage
Special: At 21st level may make a secondary attack agianst the same target. +33 vs. Fortidtude; the target's fire resistance is negated until the end of the encounter. Miss: Half damage, and no secondary attack.

Bite Dragon Racial Power
At-Will * Fire
Standard Action Reach 2
Target: One creature
Attack: +14 vs. AC
Hit: 2d6 +6 plus 2d6 fire damage
Special: Increase to Reach 3, +29 vs. AC, 2d10 +9 plus 4d6 fire damage at 11th level; increase to Reach 4, +37 vs. AC, 2d12 + 12 plus 6d6 fire damage at 21st level.

Claw Dragon Racial Power
At-Will
Standard Action Reach 2
Target: One creature
Attack: +14 vs. AC
Hit: 2d6 + 6 damage
Special: Increase to Reach 3, +29 vs. AC, 2d10 +9 damage at 11th level; increase to Reach 4, +37 vs. AC, 2d12 + 12 damage at 21st level.

Double Attack Dragon Racial Power
At-Will
Standard Action
The dragon makes two claw attacks.

Tail Strike Dragon Racial Power
The dragon attacks the enemy with its tail.
At-Will
Immediate Reaction Reach 3
Target: When an enemy moves to a position where it flanks the dragon.
Attack: +12 vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d10 +6 damage, and the target is pushed 1 square
Special: Increase to Reach 3, +27 vs. Reflex, 3d10 +9 damage, and the target is pushed 2 squares at 11th level; Increase to Reach 4, +35 vs. Reflex, 4d10 + 12 damage, and the target is pushed 3 squares.

Frightful Presence Dragon Racial Power
Encounter * Fear
Standard Action Close burst 5
Target: Enemies
Attack: +12 vs Will
Hit: The target is stunned until the end of the dragon's next turn. Aftereffect: the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends)
Special: Increase to Close burst 10, +25 vs. Will at 11th level; Increase to clsoe burst 10, +35 vs. Will.

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ChrisTheS,

So, you have three parts of what you are doing: 1) Dragon Race, 2) Come up with Racial Feats, and 3) an optional Dragon Class. Cool, very cool. Though my one thing would be that I would say any Dragon should be able to take some of the abilities in the Dragon Class without needing to multiclass or even loose access to his normal class (say, if he was a Wizard).

I mean, you did say that the Draconic Class would provide abilities that Dragons naturally get.

Anyway, that is a very cool idea. I like, especially the race and the feats. The class is cool too for certain PCs.

Raiden Drake,

I very much like the idea that you are trying to accomplish, now that I have an understanding of what that is. hehe.

I like the idea of the Dragon PC Race. That is totally awesome. And I love the idea of feats that extend and enlarge the powers available to the Dragon PC. I think that makes a lot of sense.

I do thing that dragon PCs should get flight, or at least hover. ChrisTheS had the cool idea of giving him Flight (Hover) that could not be used in combat at low levels but would allow long-range flight. I think that is kinda cool. Cause I think flying is something dragons should be able to do.

This is the same thing with the Frightful Presence. It exists due to the dominance and sheer power available in the dragon's presence. This, I don't think, is so much a manner of ability but inharent nature. Though I do agree that it would be a lower level.

I agree that Dragon PC has to be speical - both as a PC and as a Dragon. It would not be cool if he couldn't have all the other features normal Dragon's get. He should get all the normal stuff, at least in a basic form, and then he cna increase it with both feats and as he ages.

ChrisTheS,

Making them Elemental sounds cool considering all the myths about dragons and all that. So yeah, nice.

Though I wouldn't mind an Arcane powered dragon class - hint, hint, nudge, nudge.

On to you second point, I agree wholeheartedly. That is how it always happens. These forums have been fun recently and its annoying when they get broke just as I want to post or read something.

Raiden Drake,

I agree with you in that I don't thing a Dragon Class should be mandatory but if I don't have a problem with it existing. Just like I wouldn't have a problem with a Human Class or an Eladrin class or a Dragonbron Class or a Warforged class, and...well, you get the picture.

Though I, as a personal thought, would more likely make Racial Classes be like Paragon Classes in that you get extra but you do not loose access to your base class.

Hmm, thinking about it, that might work - making Racial Classes soemthing above and beyond normal classes, not in exchange. So it wouldn't be multiclassing.
"What is loved...endures. What is built...endures. And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures." -Babylon 5 "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. It is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we becomes victims of the darkness." -Justice William O. Douglas
ok the first major issue is the preset attack roll modifiers and damage bonuses. They don't leave room for variation.

Second the breath weapon is too powerful at 1st level.

I'd actually steal the dragon born Breath weapon power, in fact you might consider a weaker version to start with and have more feats.

Ok I'd say make the dragon races/feats different, but have the class be mostly the same.

The class grants Flight, size, frightful presence, Shapeshifting, and some of the natural attack abilities.

The Race grants Energy Resist, Breath Weapon, the basic ability to use natural attacks, most of the tail abilities will be based on your dragon race, and the basic armor, in exchange for not being able to use normal weapons and/armor.

and feats can sort of fill in the blanks

Now the armor is tricky in fact we may want to take a page from the old 3.5 warforged and make it a feat/ability chosen at first level. Soft-skin dragon gets no armor bonus but can wear barding, Med-Skin get some armor (equivalent to a light armor of some type) so they can use their int or dex as well, and thick skins get equivalent to heavy.

so a Dragon race at first level would look like this Somewhat

Red Dragon

Ability Scores: +2 Strength +2 Wisdom

Size: Large

Speed: 6 Squares

Vision: DarkVision

Languages: Draconic, Common

Skill Bonuses: +2 insight and Intimidate

Quadraped: Carrying capacity +50%, cannot use manufactured weapons, and double's cost of armor.

Dragon Breath: As dragon born but always fire vs. Reflex

Fire Resistance: 5 + 1/2 level

Scales: +1 to AC unless a feat is taken for more.

Natural weapons: The red dragon is proficient with claws, bites, and may use them as basic attacks. Red dragons are also proficient with tail strikes, but may not use them as a basic attack.