4e clerics are horrible

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The reasons I fell this way are:
1)Lack of a shield
2)Lack of armor heavier than chain
3)The need to get into melee for most of the abilities including some healling one but the inability to survive in melee
4)the fact the the warlord has the same 2 times an encounter power as a cleric but he has better defences.
5)they are completly distilled cookie cutter version of all former versions.

THERE IS NO REASON TO BE A CLERIC IN 4TH EDITION
medium Hp
effectivly medium armor
no shields
simple weapons
stupid small ineffective powers (and not enough of them)
dumb. Just plain dumb.

Clerics in 4e are near godlike. they can cover all 4 roles with ease. A party of 4 clerics could outdo a balanced party.
Who's going to do the healing and buffing?

A-HAH! There's your reason to play a Cleric!

A party of 4 clerics could outdo a balanced party.

Sounds like a Final Fantasy game for 4 White Mages. Except these White Mages know how to fight back...
huhn

how ironic

the cleric was the star in our first 4e game.
I really havent noticed the part in which " they are forced to go melee".
They can go, but they have a lot of abilities that dont relly on that. As a matter of fact, you can pretty much find the concept of laser cleric around here, quite easily.

Anyway... if you didnt like it... try something else...
i just dont agree ... with what you just posted.
dumb. Just plain dumb.

Clerics in 4e are near godlike. they can cover all 4 roles with ease. A party of 4 clerics could outdo a balanced party.

what are you talking about "near godlike" how so? I dont know any gods that have a 16 or less AC and low to mid HP


I guess the warlord would be doing the healing and buffing.


THere healing abilities require them to be close to melee if not in melee to work.
can you be more specific?
cause the main source for healing is healing word... which is an area effect.
it reaches up to 25 ( 5 means 5 sqaures... not five feet) feet away at level 1.
Sacred flame also reaches the same distance....
what are you talking about?????.. really

Ac 16 is quite reasonable if you're not a tank
I find this amusing in a rather bitter and ironic way. Over at "Wizards DO Suck" some of us are starting to wonder if the cleric is in fact overpowered.

What the OP is forgetting I think is that the cleric is really two classes wrapped up in one. As a cleric you can choose to emphasize wisdom, strength (or both but that gets expensive because of the two implements you need). A cleric does not get gimped in armor. A Cleric with a 13 Con and 13 Strength (both of which are dead easy to make by paragon for pretty much any battle-cleric...if not sooner) can spend one feat and get Scale. For another he can get a shield. Scale Mail is amazing in 4E and you've now got the AC of a fighter (defender). Not bad. Not bad at all.

Clerics also get (eventually) AoEs that make a wizard cry because unlike the wizard they do fire and radiant (and radiant is one of the best types) and are IFF spells (while the wizard is all too likely to hit his friends). Of course the cleric can heal as well.

The cleric can get in the mud and blood, can strike effectively at range, can control at least some (how much is highly disputed in Wizards DO Suck), and can buff/heal.

But yes, otherwise 4E clerics are horrible.

-Polaris
can you be more specific?
cause the main source for healing is healing word... which is an area effect.
it reaches up to 25 ( 5 means 5 sqaures... not five feet) feet away at level 1.
Sacred flame also reaches the same distance....
what are you talking about?????.. really

Ac 16 is quite good if you're not a tank

healing word puts you within walking distance of creatures.(5 squares)
healing strike puts your in melee.

the warlord has healing word also (not called that but same effect) and they are better suited for battle than the current version of a cleric, also they have better buffs.

My complaint is that I am so undergeared for melee yet forced to be close to the action to be effective. I know healing used to be a touch attack but at least I was in plate with a heavy shield.
well I cant say how it works in your party,
but in mine the cleric had a human fighter and a dwarf fighter in front of him.
...he got hit only when the two tanks fell. He went to melee ocasionally, but seemed to survive fine...


by the way... I love how tanks force enemies to keep fighting 'em.

I dont know maybe you were out of luck. It happens.
Can I ask what was the composition of your group?




I'll be honest.. I like the flavor of the warlord better... but I do think clerics are slightly more powerful.
You know you could take feats to get higher armour proficiencies and shield proficiencies. Since you have more feats available in 4E, it's worth giving that option a look.
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The reasons I fell this way are:
1)Lack of a shield
2)Lack of armor heavier than chain

Welcome to 4th Edition D&D. What you're looking for is the paladin, which no longer is simply a fighter with sucky spells and lay on hands, or the shield and armor proficiency feats.

3)The need to get into melee for most of the abilities including some healling one but the inability to survive in melee

As has been pointed out, he needs to get within 5 squares of melee, not in melee, for healing word. The cleric can certainly survive for a round in melee, enough to strike and get out.

4)the fact the the warlord has the same 2 times an encounter power as a cleric but he has better defences.

Aside from the fact that powers and defenses have nothing at all to do with one another when comparing class balance (and that both get +2 overall, though the warlord's is split and the cleric's isn't), you missed the fact that clerics add their Wis to HP healed and have many more healing powers than the warlord.

5)they are completly distilled cookie cutter version of all former versions.

This is a bit exaggerated, but I agree that the cleric could use more customizability.

THERE IS NO REASON TO BE A CLERIC IN 4TH EDITION
medium Hp
effectivly medium armor
no shields
simple weapons
stupid small ineffective powers (and not enough of them)

Obviously there's no reason to be a wizard either:
--Low HP
--Lightest armor available
--No shield
--2 proficient weapons
--Stupid small ineffective powers (and not enough of them)

...because if you think the cleric's powers are small and ineffective, you obviously haven't played one yet. Their powers can eventually out-AoE the wizard's AoEs, and their HP is as good as a Striker's and better than a Controller's. Just because cleric isn't the number one or two class by a huge margin anymore doesn't mean that it's horrible.
Don't forget to add wis (likely your highest stat) modifier to every healing power you do ever (including healing word). That adds up to quite a bit, and makes the warlord completely unable to keep up.
But yeah, if you don't like the cleric you could always try the warlord. They are supposed to cover the same role, and have a lot of tactical coolness to them.
As far as I've seen, clerics have solid defense, offense, control, and excellent healing, and can be pretty effective specializing in any of them.
I for instance find it quite amusing...

I my game the cleric did not ever step into meele reach...

He kept beaming the enemies...no one got close to him.
Everytime one of us would fall the cleric make the guy stand up again...

(well, until the nearly end...when all powers were spent and the beast was still alive!!)
Here see how awesome dey are.(and I'm more of a Warlock/Wizard/Paladin guy, so I'm not biased.


Controller- They have enough AoEs to qualify them as a bona fide mage.
Defender- They have many melee abilities.
Leader- They are better healers than warlords.
Striker- They can deal out serious damage.


A party of 4 clerics for teh win!
First, if you were getting hit in melee, your defenders weren't doing enough to detract the monsters from doing so. Free attacks for a warrior, or radiant damage from a pally should for the most part keep people on them. Then all the pushing and status effects that can be imposed with all the skills is amazing, fun, and should keep you out of trouble till your defenders fall down.

As someone else stated, if you really want that heavier armor just take the feat. Remember though that many things attack defenses other than AC.
well I cant say how it works in your party,
but in mine the cleric had a human fighter and a dwarf fighter in front of him.
...he got hit only when the two tanks fell. He went to melee ocasionally, but seemed to survive fine...


by the way... I love how tanks force enemies to keep fighting 'em.

I dont know maybe you were out of luck. It happens.
Can I ask what was the composition of your group?




I'll be honest.. I like the flavor of the warlord better... but I do think clerics are slightly more powerful.

Ya maybe my party members screwed something up.
I had a fighter, pally, me (the cleric), ranger,and rouge.

@Eldritch_Lord I've been playing a 4e cleric for about a month now.
Well anyway...
My advice is.. try again...
If it does not get any better.. just try the pally... or something else entirelly.

ONe of the things that made me excited is that, for the first time in years, I want to try other classes (I used to be the wizard guy, now I am playing a ranger !).
I've tried several builds.
I tried the starter cleric from the premade adventure first.
The minions walked up to me or made range attacks at me alot because I was with-in 5 square of them for lances and sacred flame.
Got into melee alot because I needed to heal with healing strike.

It might be my defenders but I was not impressed in the least with the cleric.
druce,

It sounds like you'd be happier with a warlord (which is fine), but clerics in 4E are amazing. Dragonborn (battle-cleric), Dwarf, Elf, and Human are all solid clerical race choices.

I happen to like the dwarf in particular since I can start with a Str of 16, Wis of 18, and Con of 14 permitting me to wear scale mail right away.

At this point you are within 1 AC of the fighter! What more do you want?

You can stand in the mud and blood like a defender, you can heal and buff, and you can at least to some degree control too. What more do you want?

-Polaris
Polaris, re your first post - agreed.

(though on a side note I think the Wizard's versatility may be very interesting at higher levels, by the way; how interesting seems tricky to quantify, until we've got there)

druce - a previous poster may be right - what you're hankering for may be the 4E Paladin.

Think of the Cleric this way: you like them in plate and shield: I don't. If the class includes plate and shield as the default, something else has to give and half of us two lose out. If it doesn't, we both get a better Cleric and you have the choice to use your bountiful 4E feats to take shield and scale. Or plate, if you really want it. Unless you're after some uberbuild, you'll still have enough feats to go round.

But I'd also suggest maybe letting the 4E Cleric sit and simmer awhile. Tinker with a build that forgoes the Str prayers, or vice versa (they overlap a lot, as you'll see). Put your second big stat somewhere else, and see what that does. Make a half dozen builds and see what you come up with. You may find the class isn't quite as horrible as you think it is. That has been my experience.
The reasons I fell this way are:
1)Lack of a shield
2)Lack of armor heavier than chain
3)The need to get into melee for most of the abilities including some healling one but the inability to survive in melee
4)the fact the the warlord has the same 2 times an encounter power as a cleric but he has better defences.
5)they are completly distilled cookie cutter version of all former versions.

THERE IS NO REASON TO BE A CLERIC IN 4TH EDITION
medium Hp
effectivly medium armor
no shields
simple weapons
stupid small ineffective powers (and not enough of them)

You are playing your Cleric incorrectly or something. Their healing is outstanding and it is mostly minor actions. So you can heal and do damage at the same time.

As for armor: have you heard of something called Feats? You can be in Plate by 2nd level, or even 1st level if you are human. It's not like any of the other Heroic feats are that great.
Ya maybe my party members screwed something up.
I had a fighter, pally, me (the cleric), ranger,and rouge.

@Eldritch_Lord I've been playing a 4e cleric for about a month now.

I'd be worried too. Four adventurers and a color running around is going to be a serious problem...
You are playing your Cleric incorrectly or something. Their healing is outstanding and it is mostly minor actions. So you can heal and do damage at the same time.

As for armor: have you heard of something called Feats? You can be in Plate by 2nd level, or even 1st level if you are human. It's not like any of the other Heroic feats are that great.

O and I thought that the armor feats had pre-rec. I guess I'm wrong.
I swear, the next April Fools Day WotC prank should be a DDI pdf of a new class "Rouge" based on using makeup in combat.
I'd be worried too. Four adventurers and a color running around is going to be a serious problem...

I'm afraid I don't understand your post. 4 adventurers and a color?
I'm afraid I don't understand your post. 4 adventurers and a color?

compare "rogue" and "rouge"

an old joke but i still lol everytime.
compare "rogue" and "rouge"

an old joke but i still lol everytime.

:D o lol

I should really watch my spelling
O and I thought that the armor feats had pre-rec. I guess I'm wrong.

No, you're right. Scale Mail has a prereq of Str 13, Con 13. Shield has a prereq of Str 13 (light). Plate has a prereq of Str 15, Con 15.

Quite honestly Platemail isn't worth it for just about anyone unless you start with it, but Scale Mail is amazing. Futhermore, the cleric will fall right into those prerequisits (esp if Dwarf).

-Polaris
No, you're right. Scale Mail has a prereq of Str 13, Con 13. Shield has a prereq of Str 13 (light). Plate has a prereq of Str 15, Con 15.

Quite honestly Platemail isn't worth it for just about anyone unless you start with it, but Scale Mail is amazing. Futhermore, the cleric will fall right into those prerequisits (esp if Dwarf).

-Polaris

Ya i'm going to trinker more with him and see what I can do.

I saw a ranged cleric thread that looked interesting.
Ya i'm going to trinker more with him and see what I can do.

I saw a ranged cleric thread that looked interesting.

Did you mean this one?

Being a ranged cleric reduces some of the 'melee' worries the OP had. AC17 for a non-tank is pretty decent. Speed 7, plus the joys of being an archer?

Sounds pretty good to me.
@Eldritch_Lord I've been playing a 4e cleric for about a month now.

Then I don't see why you think the cleric is ineffective. It heals better than the warlord, AoEs better than the wizard, and has as good or better health as Controllers, Strikers, and Leaders. Armor and shields are a feat away, and you don't even really need them to do well in melee, as scale and plate are a bit overrated anyway.
rerednaw - nice to have a link-over. Thanks

The ranged Cleric rocks, to my mind, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a way to polish up the melee Cleric to equal effect. Dwarf strikes me as the way to go. Maybe someone should start a Melee Cleric thread?
Then I don't see why you think the cleric is ineffective. It heals better than the warlord, AoEs better than the wizard, and has as good or better health as Controllers, Strikers, and Leaders. Armor and shields are a feat away, and you don't even really need them to do well in melee, as scale and plate are a bit overrated anyway.

Plate yes, scale no. Scale gives better AC than chain AND doesn't have an armor check penalty attached to it. The other heavy armors only catch up because Scale doesn't have a good Armor Specialization and the others do.

-Polaris
Plate yes, scale no. Scale gives better AC than chain AND doesn't have an armor check penalty attached to it. The other heavy armors only catch up because Scale doesn't have a good Armor Specialization and the others do.

-Polaris

Not overrated as armors, as they're very good at that, but overrated in the sense that you don't absolutely need them or anything to be in melee as a non-Defender.
In the one and only home brewed 4e session that I have played so far, my Dragonborn melee Cleric of the Raven Queen was the only one to not go down. I also kept forgetting to use my Raven Queen's Blessing, but that is irrelevent. He was not the star of the game, but he was fun to play. The Warlord seemed to be the most popular character, except that I kept neglecting to heal him immediately because I don't get along with that particular player very much.
Plate yes, scale no. Scale gives better AC than chain AND doesn't have an armor check penalty attached to it. The other heavy armors only catch up because Scale doesn't have a good Armor Specialization and the others do.

-Polaris

IMO Scale has the best armor specialization feat. It's not listed in the table, but if you check the feat description, scale specialization gives both +1 ac and removes the movment penatly. Plate actually has the worst specialization feat, only gives +1 AC and nothing else.
my Eladrin Cleric begs to differ with the OP.

Clerics can still get into melee, Chain is not nearly as bad as you make it out, but yes they don't get plate anymore but that hardly hurts them. They can always get scale or possibily even plate depending on how you build your cleric. A Dragonborn Cleric for example will most likely have the str score to get the plate armor eventually, if not sooner than other races minus the human... but the point is, their defenses aren't nearly as bad you make them out to be.

medium hp is what they always had sir, whats your point?

They actually have better skills now, though it might not seem like it at first glance.

and there is always the option of blaster cleric who doesn't need heavy armor because they fight from distance and need their full mobility to stay out of enemy grasp.
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IMAGE(http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/6294/bloodelfstafflo3.png)
Class: Cleric<br /> Level: 1<br /> Vision: Low Light<br /> Size &amp; Type: Medium Fey (Eladrin)<br /> Hit Points/Bloodied: 23/11<br /> Healings Surges/Heal Surge Value: 7/5 <br /> Iniatitive: 1<br /> Speed: 6 <br /> Armor Class: 16 (Armor +3, Int +3, +10)<br /> Base Attack Bonus: +0<br /> Attack: +3 Lance of Faith (1d8+3)<br /> Space / Reach: 5ft/5ft<br /> Distinct Features: Eladrin Education (Perception), Fey Step, Trance, Channel Divinity, Healer's Lore, Healing Word,<br /> Defenses: Fort: +10 Ref: +13 Will: +16 (+21 vs Charm)<br /> Abilities: Str:11 Dex:12 Con:11 Int:17 Wis:16 Cha: 12 <br /> Skills: Arcana, Insight, Healing, History, Perception, Religion,<br /> Feats: (B)Ritual Casting, 1st-Arcane Initiate,<br /> Alignment: Unaligned<br /> Languages: Common, Elven<br /> Powers: <br /> At Will: Lance of Faith, Sacred Flame, <br /> Encounter: Fey Step, Divine Glow, Thunderwave<br /> Daily: Cascade of Light<br /> Utility: <br /> Known Rituals: Gentle Repose, Tensor's Floating Disk,<br /> Equipment: 100 gp Remaining 13gp.<br /> <br /> 30gp Hide Armor<br /> 5gp Quarter Staff<br /> 10gp Holy Symbol (Corellon)<br /> 15gp Adventurering Gear<br /> 25gp Hand Crossbow<br /> 2gp 40 bolts



Here is my take on a blaster cleric /leader/controller

The hopes are that I will take the other 3 multiclass feats then jump into the Spellstorm Mage paragon path at 11th lv. The synergy between Cleric and Wizard is very strong in 4e almost so that it would be crazy not to do this build.
The hopes are that I will take the other 3 multiclass feats then jump into the Spellstorm Mage paragon path at 11th lv. The synergy between Cleric and Wizard is very strong in 4e almost so that it would be crazy not to do this build.

Absolutely. Two clerics or even this one cleric can just about replace a wizard and be a cleric too.....and somewhere a wizard in Faerun cries.....

-Polaris

P.S. Seriously did Wotc have to cut both gonads off the wizard but leave the more broken 3.5 class (the cleric) much more intact? I don't get it.
Absolutely. Two clerics or even this one cleric can just about replace a wizard and be a cleric too.....and somewhere a wizard in Faerun cries.....

-Polaris

P.S. Seriously did Wotc have to cut both gonads off the wizard but leave the more broken 3.5 class (the cleric) much more intact? I don't get it.

heh heh no comment. :D
healing word puts you within walking distance of creatures.(5 squares)

Yes it does, and if your party doesn't have anybody able to make attacks of opportunity then this would be a problem. As it is, if you're using your healing ability on someone who's right next to the enemy then they're in a position to hit anything that comes after you. In addition to this, you're probably less vulnerable than, say, your wizard or warlock compatriots who are stood around next to you and I don't see them whining about not having shield proficiencies.

Your healing word is more powerful than the warlord's inspiring word because of healer's lore. Stick some points in wisdom and watch the benefits.

You're not a front line fighter. You don't have effective armour because cleric isn't the monster fighter/healer/spellcaster that he was back in 3.5. If that's really such a problem then spend a feat to get scale proficiency. You're going to be carrying a holy symbol to use your implement powers so a shield seems a bit pointless unless you don't want to carry a weapon, but again you can spend a feat to gain proficiency (you get loads of feats in 4e).

On the whole, cleric does it's job (healing, buffing, getting in the way of monsters going for your wizard for a round or two) extremely well. If you want a holy warrior who fights on the front line with longsword and shield then take a paladin. Leader class isn't for those with no friends, you need to have other party members there to use your skills on and to protect you from some of the stuff that's going to get thrown at you, going it alone is suicide.