New Homemade Epic Destinies

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No, not another thread about the Excerpt.

Instead I posted a while ago in a threat a few possible ED's:

Here


And .. aehm.. well I tried myself at creating one of those Epic Destinies, specifically...

[b] * * * Updated * * *







The Icon of Strife

As Icon of Strife, you are the embodiment of physical strife, always ready for a fight.


Prerequisite: 21st-level fighter

For all your life you have fought with the many weapons of war. You find yourself in a somewhat unique position, knowing how to effectively kill with any and all objects at any given time. But all the combats and battles you have fought, are only part of the constant state of war and battle all over the world. You know this and you understand – fighting is one of the cornerstones of existence.

With your uncontested physical prowess you can defend or destroy the world, be it’s saviour or greatest nightmare. No enemy can outmanoeuvre you or beat you without the utmost dedication. With the sword of your ancestors or another weapon of your choice, you are equally master of all battles…


Immortality – The Endless Strife

OLD
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When finally you have finished your Epic Destiny and your last battle is over – you already await the very next combat. But no longer in this life. On your own choice you either ascend to an Exarch of Battles or simply reincarnate to lead another life filled with strife, destined to greatness in battle.

Exarch of Battles: You chose to sit at your gods side, ready for combat beyond the means of mortals, eternally bound to servitude in combat.

Reincarnation: You drop dead and your soul continues on – not the normal path set for mortals, but the path to a yet soulless body, a child being born. You loose your conscious memory but retain some of your instinctive knowledge about battles. The child will grow up to become another fighter of unparalleled prowess, another defender or shatterer of the world – he stands before the same choice as you did once. But he does not have to choose the same.


NEW
After you have slain the last enemy that stood in your way, fulfilled your own Epic Quest by slaying your utmost enemy, you disappear. In the second your opponent drops dead on the floor, you feel something pull at your body and soul. And you listen. And then - you disappear, leaving behind only a scant few relics, that immortalize your name forever in history. You are known as the great hero who once wielded said artifacts.
But you yourself... you fight on. Uncertain where, you fight - perpetually in the final struggle, the strife of eternity - and you relish in it. Your final dream came true: Being able to fight on and on, forever, without tiring and without end.


Icon of Strife Features
As Icon of Strife you have the following features.

Greatest Knowledge (21st level): As your skill at arms improves, you constantly learn how to handle the new knowledge. You gain one additional at-will power from the fighter power-list.

Avatar of Strife (24th level): Once per day, when you die, you rise again immediately. You gain full hit points but can no longer use healing surges until your are properly resurrected. While you are an Avatar of Strife, all damage dealt to you physically is halved. You can use your at-will powers and encounter powers like normal, but cannot activate magical items, use dailies, or communicate in any way.

When the battle is over, your body comes to rest again, dead as when you dropped first.

Crushing the Enemy (30th level): You may choose one new daily power from your class-list. That power’s damage is always maximized and may be used once per day as normal.


Icon of Strife Power

Iron Mind over Body
Icon of Strife Utility 26
Drawing from your innermost reserves of your will to fight on, you mend your spirit, raise your morale and ignore all but the most grievous wounds.
Daily
Standard Action Personal
Effect:
You regain your full hit points and receive +3 to your defences until your next turn.









Any opinions and criticism (as long as it's constructive) is welcome.
Looks very nice. A few comments:

Immortality – The Endless Strife

When finally you have finished your Epic Destiny and your last battle is over – you already await the very next combat. But no longer in this life. On your own choice you either ascend to an Exarch of Battles or simply reincarnate to lead another life filled with strife, destined to greatness in battle.

Exarch of Battles: You chose to sit at your gods side, ready for combat beyond the means of mortals, eternally bound to servitude in combat.

Reincarnation: You drop dead and your soul continues on – not the normal path set for mortals, but the path to a yet soulless body, a child being born. You loose your conscious memory but retain some of your instinctive knowledge about battles. The child will grow up to become another fighter of unparalleled prowess, another defender or shatterer of the world – he stands before the same choice as you did once. But he does not have to choose the same.

I don't know if Destinies are going to have multiple immortalities, and since the Forever Hero was already previewed and might be in the PHB, I'd suggest onlly using Exarch of Battle.

Greatest Knowledge (21st level): As your skill at arms improves, you constantly learn how to handle the new knowledge. You gain one additional at-will power from your class-list.

Since you qualify as a fighter from taking the fighter Training feat, it should probably say "from the Fighter powers list" or something like that.
Otherwise, I like it. I've added it to the Class Compendium.
Pretty cool! I second all of EL's suggestions. I would also like to make a suggestion of my own.

I was fiddling around in my head about a kind of hero that "disappears" in the middle of battle, only to continue fighting his own personal war for all of time, and if you could somehow word it right, I think that would be a good "world exit" for the Icon of Strife.

The only example of this I can think of is when in Kingdom Hearts II
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Cloud fights Sephiroth, and then all of a sudden, they both disappear in a flash of light. "Huh?"

"Where did they go? Do you think they made it back to their own world?"

"They went somewhere else... Cloud went to fight a great battle-- to fight the darkness within him."


Well, if you don't like that idea, I totally understand. Feel free to critique or build upon this idea and make it your own, though. This is your Destiny after all! XD
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I thought about the Icon finally destroying the last enemy he will ever face and going *poof*, disappearing, leaving behind some of his relics, that will immortalize him forever.

Kinda like Excalibur. When you hear that name, who does not think of a certain hero-king... right?

IMAGE(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/ryukenangel/detectingwin.jpg)

Leaving behind an artifact that wholly represented your conflict, what you fought for, where, when, and what you fought against, and every single emotion that these things invoked, would be SO amazing! This would define "epic win"!

AND it already has a huge precedent in mythology and the fantasy genre.
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I don't see any problems with having multiple immortality possibilities. The point of the immortality seems to be more of suggestions on how to retire your character rather than actual rules you need to follow.
I don't see any problems with having multiple immortality possibilities. The point of the immortality seems to be more of suggestions on how to retire your character rather than actual rules you need to follow.

Multiple ways out isn't a problem per se; it's just that the Archmage (the only example we have) says "You might do this, or this, or maybe this, or perhaps that." I think that if you're going to give a definite out, you should make it a single one; otherwise, just make suggestions.

Oh, and Epitome of Battle is now in the Compendium as well.
Leichenreiter, do you have a problem with other people posting their epic destinies in this thread? If you do, I have no problem creating my own thread, but I figured I might ask in order to save forum space.
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Thanks. Any criticism from your side? Or any other side, while we are at it??

Nope. Trust me, if there were, I would not hesitate to point it out. ;)

The Exemplar of the Arcane Flow is very nice as well. Only one issue:

Special: You can affect any creature with this attack, that is part of the encounter.

This isn't quite as clear as it could be. Perhaps something like "You may target any creature to which you have line of sight" would work better.

I'll add this one to the Compendium as well.
Sacred Martyr

As a Sacred Martyr, you offer your own life as a sacrifice for the betterment of the whole world.

Prerequisite: 21st-level

You have been deemed by the powers that be in the cosmos to be a most worthy individual. Driven by love, compassion, or even perhaps a grudging tolerance tempered by a strong moral compass, you would press the single most powerful advantage you have in the world: for whatever reason, the multiverse deems your life worth more than that of hundreds of thousands of average mortal lives. You are willing, even if only barely, to make forfeit your life for the benefit of countless others.

Even before you know what the ordeal involves, somewhere in your heart you know that if the world is to be remade to your standards, your life will be the price to pay. Knowing that this burden will not pass from you, you may be driven into emotional turmoil before the end. But be of good cheer. Pick your head up and look at them. Look at all the people. They need you. There is no other way.

Immortality, in the lives of others
Sacred Martyrs, as the names suggest, must die to achieve their destiny. However, this work is far from fruitless. The following section details the benefits of Sacred Martyrdom has wrought before, but what you bring to the world is sure to vary.

Ultimate Sacrifice: When you complete your final quest, you die. Be it in a ritualistic sacrifice at an alter, a destined murder at the hands of an arch enemy, or the result of an uncanny happening in nature, your spirit departs from your body and you become permanently and irrevocably dead.

However, you knew this would be. Knowing the unbiased value of your own life, you set the terms for which your life was exchanged. When you die this final time, a grand miracle happens that will change the world forever. The miracle of some Sacred Martyrs have ended nation sundering wars. Other sacrifices might have been made to free a people from an evil pact, seal or open a gate to another world, destroy an abomination so that it might never come back, or even prevent an oncoming apocalypse. As an individual, what miracle you choose to bring will fit your own needs, should be something beyond the power of you and your comrades to accomplish in life, and should leave behind a gift of immeasurable value to those who survive you.

Your spirit, though intangible and as sparse as the air, lives on in happiness at your works and the joy it brought so many people. When someone thanks you for your sacrifice, a tradition that will surely be recognized for many years to come, your spirit is there to accept it.

Those who appriciate your works are inspired by you, wish to be more like you, and will honor your name for all of their days.

Sacred Martyr Features
All Sacred Martyrs have the following features.

Sacred Purpose (21st level): You know the value of your life, and intend not to give it up until the time is right. You gain a bonus to saving throws equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Deathmarked Miracle (24th level): Once per day, when you die, you may you heal to your healing surge value and activate a single daily power without expending an action. This daily power you activate is not expended in this usage, and the daily power you choose to activate may be an expended daily power.

Ultimate Resolve (30th level): With your mind set on the final decision, you are filled with a will to complete this loath but necessary task the like you have never known. Simply pondering your task for a brief moment compels you to engage your heart in action. You may expend a minor action to receive a +2 bonus on the next attack roll or skill check you make this turn.

Sacred Martyr Power

My Spirit Lives in You   Sacred Martyr Utility 26
Already you have practiced the art of self-sacrifice. By letting your spirit shine more radiantly for just a few moments, you confer a bit of yourself to those who's hearts you have touched.
Daily
Standard Action     Close Burst 5
Effect: Allies within burst gain the benefit of one of your class (not path or destiny) features of your choice until the end of the encounter, or five minutes. They use their own ability score to generate ability score based numbers.
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Well.. there is one Problem. There is no LoS anymore. His body is no more for the time being and the soul of the exemplar does not have a ghost-form per-se, but is only part of the river of magic that flows through everything at all times.

Er.. There is still line of sight, I'm pretty sure. Check the Pre-Release Rules in my sig, and the Paladin Design and Development article.
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I haven't had a chance to read through all of these yet, but I was planning on making a martyr destiny just today before I saw yours. Haha, well from what I've seen of your work I'm sure you've done the idea justice. I was also thinking of making a Tall Tale Hero--a hero who stands out based on extraordinary beauty or height and as the story continues on and on of his/her exploits he/she grows taller and more beautiful. But it's all just stories then, right?
The Sacred Martyr... I know I've heard of one before... OH!
It's Jesus!
Nice. for everyone who has made an epic destiny.
It makes me want to run a short adventure at level 30, fulfilling everyone's destinies.
Let's not get into discussions about religion -_- that would be FATALIY to this thread.


One per destiny? *hungry*

I don't mean to bring religon in. It's just... It fits.

And, yes, one per destiny. You want cookies, I want creative writing. I'm personally waiting for the books before I design. I don't want to overpower anything (yet).
Sweet...
I'm just glad this thread still gets posts after I posted in it. Seems like, After I post in a thread, it dies one or two posts later. Oh, well.
I was thinking of finding a way to take elements from the Pale Master and Dread Necromancer and mesh them into an Epic Destiny.
...
It'll be hard without undead minions, though...
If I might have my say on the issue of the inspiration of the Sacred Martyr, and hopefuly end the controversy, here is what I would say:

While I think it might be accurate to describe the Sacred Martyr as Jesus's Epic Destiny of choice, should he have had one, I think that is all that it is fair to say. My personal inspiration for the Destiny was actually many other iconic figures in the fantasy Genere. See the blow block for examples that come off the top of my head (WARNING: Major Plot Spoilers for some video games and anime.)
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Final Fantasy 7- Aerith completes her prair to the Lifestream to embew the White Materia with Holy only a split second before she is murdered by Sephiroth. Holy, eventually, activates and counters Sephiroth's Meteor.

Romeo X Juliet- Juliet was captured by that creepy girl who controlled that giant tree thing, but Romeo saved her from the tree and died in the process. Realizing that her true love was dead, but all the people in Neo Verona were about to die, she completed the ritual that required her sacrificing herself. Juliet (or the tree, I can't remember) sprouted giant wings, and Neo Verona did not fall out of the sky but instead landed softly back in Italy.

Final Fantasy X- Many Summoners of the past became "Sacred Martyrs" and destroied Sin (for a time) bringing the Calm. I consider Tidis to be a Sacred Martyr because he was the "dream of the Fayth," and destroying the creations of Yevon required that he too must die.


Other examples surely exist, but I cannot think of any other examples (besides my buddy Jesus, of course) than those listed. Rest assured, however: I made this destiny because it is a valid archtype, not because I am in a hurry to blasphemy a legitimate religion.
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@Wizardmon: The Sacred Martyr is amazing, except for one minor detail...its My Spirit Lives in You ability can last for five minuets, which causes a problem if we have no bard. ;)

@Leichenreiter: The Unchallenged Trickster is very good; I'm just a bit worried that you're putting too-restrictive prereqs on these. Destinies are supposed to be much broader than Paths, without the one-to-one class/Path correlation some have; I think a sneaky ranger or fighter with Rogue Training or any class with the Shadow source might be good fits for this Destiny, yet with the rogue tactic prereq you close it off to everyone else.

With regard to the Scion of Bael Turath, the "Cha rounds" duration for Infernal Aura is a bit wonky. I'd suggest making it Sustain Minor and let Cha have a different effect--perhaps more damage, or +Cha damage of a different type.

@Shinikama: I know what you mean about threads dying after you post. If killing threads got you charged with involuntary threadslaughter, I'd have gotten life without parole by now.
@Wizardmon: The Sacred Martyr is amazing

Thanks a lot! 8D

except for one minor detail...its My Spirit Lives in You ability can last for five minuets, which causes a problem if we have no bard. ;)

Goh-thaym it! I knew I spelled that wrong! (fixed, along with various missing words being added, such as "and")
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How about the Ascendant of Bael'Turath? I am a little unsure about that one...

Didn't see it there when I posted; I must have had the tab open too long. Hold on.

*checking*

It looks good. The Immortality bit under The Path of Evil should probably say "true Scion to the philosophy of Bael’Turath", not "true Ascendant to the philosophy of Bael’Turath," though.

Also, since we haven't seen how summoning is supposed to be handled, I'm a bit leery of Claiming the Service. It doesn't specify whether you can call minions, regulars, elites, or solos; it doesn't specify if the devil stays after it uses its ability (I assume not); it doesn't specify a bunch of other things. I'm not trying to be critical--I don't know anything more about summoning than you. I just think that until we know how it works, you should hold off; this could turn out to be either too powerful or too weak, depending.
Thing is, the devil is not really summoned. He is called upon, uses a single power of his (exclusding summonings) and leaves... I could word it a little clearer, though...

That's precisely my point--if that's all it does, you're not really "summoning" it in the same game-mechanical sense we're used to, and you should clarify it.

WRT the Once-Dead...I love it, I really do. The flavor is amazing, and I can't find any balance issues or fault with the mechanics. Great job.
I like the Once-Dead a lot (especially the Another Glimpse class feature), but I do have a couple of suggestions. (Was this in any way inspired by Kingdom Hearts II, BTW?)

I don't much care for Indomitable Life-Force's back-lash. Perhaps a "rage, but spend the rest of the day remembering the darkness" might be better suited for a Daily Utility power (stance)? I say that because I don't really understand My Hope is your Power. Though, I suppose the mechanics for it are sound.

I like Fulfilling your Destiny (Though I think it might be better named "Fighting For Your Destiny" or "Fight For Destiny"), but I think that it would be better to say "expend a healing surge" instead of "use a healing surge," because healing surges are a resource, and not a power.

Though I understand what you are saying, I think that a rewording (or further explanation, or both) might be due for The Path to the Beyond. If nothing else, I think you have a few comma splices ;)

Overall, good job. This is an important archtype (reborn hero) to fill, and I am glad you did it so well!
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Firstly: WRT? Thats one of the shortenings I DON'T know. mtfbwy or whatever, but WRT? [Explaination please :D ]

WRT=With Respect To. It's not an internet abbreviation, it's a math or physics thing. "The derivative of y WRT x" and so forth.

Thanks for the praise, again. I like the flavor myself quite a bit, had really fun creating this one, too. As for balance, I was kinda afraid about the defy death thing, specifically the aftereffects...

I think it's fine as-is.

So okay just for a short teaser... I will soon be presenting: "Master of the Void and Stars", basing on a Star-Pact Warlock.

Can't wait.
WRT the Once-Dead, I think that "Rally to Destiny" might be another appropriate (and in my case, more easily understood) name for "My Hope is Your Power."

As for the Master of the Void: I like! I complaints or suggestions there!
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Really good name for the power!!!

Gonna edit it right away!

Specific question: How about the night-thing of the Master' ?

I like it. I did forget to mention that. I also forgot to mention, however, that the Fatebarrier ability seemed a little weak to me. I do like the light and dark theme, however, and Nightfall is well handled.
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The big pro of FateBarrier is, that you simply do not die. Other "once per day, when you die" powers normally leave your corpse after some kick-ass effect.

Also a broken Line of Effect means, that nothing can affect you, right?

It somehow still does seem a little underpowered. Any idea? Maybe another "if its night" thing?

I think it needs to be increased in general usage. Something more like, "Once per day, when you die, you may negate any damage you just received, or recover at 1 HP, whichever is more, and you may choose to expend a healing surge to recover double your healing surge value, or if it is night or similar conditions (see Nightfall power) heal to full HP. Regardless, you are no longer dead or dieing, and you do not trigger any power that would have activated upon your death. Line of effect to you is broken and this effect may be sustained with a minor action."
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Great destinies guys, all of them. For the first one posted, the fighter one, the 21st level power seems a bit weak, one extra at-will. It is a powerful benefit, but other destinies seem to get a bonus almost every round to an action. For the Exemplar of the Flow, great work, very elegant. But, all of these destinies have one 'once per day, when you die' situation at 24th. We can't assume all destinies will have it just because the archmage and most of the 3.5 epic destinies had it. There may be many epic destinies that don't have a 'death insurance' ability, but instead have something equally powerful.
IDK, I think a "Once per day, when you die" ability is a pretty safe bet. Besides being mentioned in a review of something to expect a lot in 4e Epic, the Dragon article on 3.5 Destinies said that
An epic destiny has four parts:

* One or more 21st-level features
* A 24th-level feature that makes you harder to kill
* A 27th-level special power
* A 30th-level feature

Any effect that applies to class features also applies to epic destiny features.

Of course, you have to modify this list slightly to get what you would find in 4e, but as I said, I think a "Once per day, when you die" ability is a pretty safe bet.
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Any comments on the Primordial-Guy? I plan on a follow-up ED, ready within a few hours maybe. (when i get time to do it).

Complains or Criticism?

The only comment I have is that you might want to restrict the energy types for Elemental Wrath; radiant, necrotic, and psychic damage aren't as associated with the Chaos as the rest are. Otherwise, it looks good.
I have a few things to point out about Child of the Merciless Sun. First of all, love the name and flavor (even if it does follow the "[blank] of [blankety blank]" naming scheme). Firstly, your attack powers deal... normal damage? They have the fire descriptor, so you should specify that you deal fire damage where necessary. Also, "3+" is a confusing notation; you should put either "three or more" or "more than three" (in the later instance, I would prefer "four or more"). And for Humility and Defiance, what if the character in question already has fire resistance? Like a tiefling?
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Both the Child of the Merciless Sun and Scholar of the Primordial Way are very cool. I especially enjoy the scholar. You gave him great flavor that tied in abilities of creation and energy manipulation well. Though I would prefer more of the abilities being tied to this. I think summoning elemental minions or something would be cool instead of the symbol for a utility power, and an attack that deals all energy types would be cool to have somewhere in there. Just some thoughts. For your effects that have the zone descriptor: My undertstanding is that zones are continuous like ice wall or blade barrier so I don't think your effects need the descriptor. I think the Child of the Merciless Sun's features are very cool and flavorful, but the ability to sustain his action point power is overpowered. I don't think any of the paragon paths have been able to do that, and there abilities aren't more potent. Another thing, your utility powers are standard actions. The Merciless Sun guy's could be a minor action I think, and I don't see a controller wanting to take a standard action to buff an ally. The bonus could be reduced and the action turned into a minor action and it might see more use.
I don't think +2 ac and reflex is necessarily high powered its just that there are paragon paths that get +4 to attack under the same circumstances but they can't sustain it. Making it a move action would be better, but it's still adding on to the ability in a way that is moderately better than others. It is your decision however, and I don't think it will break the class either way. I see what you mean about summoning. I think the Merciless Sun's utility power would be well balanced as an minor action encounter power, yes.

On the Northlandish Master Hunter:

You might drop fighter as a possible entry into the class since I don't think they will get ranged powers, however you might let them take it for the reason that it would give them ranged powers ;). Piercing Arrowstorm is awesome! The other powers look well balanced and flavored, though I have to admit I'd like it if this paragon path stuck to being completely martial.
Making it +1 might complicate the description, but it could work. Yeah, a martial version would have to replace the frost arrow. I like it the way it is though, don't get me wrong.
I know you want favorites of what you are planning on making, but I have to mention that I am in love with the Master of the Void and Stars. I have had a character idea since I knew of the star pact of an elf who believes he will one day break free of his mortal shell and join the stars. I never thought to do it as an epic destiny. So great job on that one. I may make a fatespinner sort of paragon path for him too.

On what you plan to make. I thought that a sort of Primordial Paladin would go well with your scholar, but I don't know if that is on your list. I'll go look at what you have ideas for. Hunter of the Fullmoon would be cool, you could give it a fey background also and follow it with an epic destiny that makes the character a master of the hunt (remember that kick ass 3.5 monster from MMIV or V?). Initiate of Forbidden Knowledge also sounds cool, and the Dwarven runemage though I wonder if you should restrict so much or not.
For the Fatespinner, I have an idea:

Fate Spun Action (11th level): On a turn that you use an action point you may reroll one roll of your choice, taking the better of the two. If you do not use your reroll, you can use it on an enemy's roll (taking the worse of the two) until the begginning of your next turn.
It all looks great. The damage of Glorious Constellation of Carnage could be increased though. 4d10 would probably be within reason.
True, but I always think of Blast of Cold which is 19th level I think and it does 6d6 in a rather large blast+immobilize+only hits enemies+has a miss effect of half damage and slowed.
Haha, yeah. Not to mention the 7d10 star pact power mentioned in the recent Enworld update (we don't know the level though).
Very much so. I plan on making him rather whimsical and carefree, toying with the strings of fate when he can. This will fit much better than the Doomsayer, which is too dark for him.
Wow, 33 pages worth of text to go through. I'm so glad I've started looking here. If you don't mind, I'd like to include these (with credit to you of course) with the compilation Creations I've been working on. I'll post again with a mock-up so you can see your hard work put to paper.

In keeping with the spirit of this thread, here's one I wrote up. For now, it'll seem narrow, just because it's meant to be an ED for the sorcerer I've written up (tba). I'll include the introductory feat though so others can take it if they like.

Primal Initiate (Draconic Heritage)
Tier: Heroic
Class/Skill: Sorcerer/Arcana
Benefit: You gain a natural bonus to your AC equal to your Cha modifier. This bonus doesn't stack with heavy armor. You can also use Magic Missile (for now; this is just a placeholder power for playtesting) 1/encounter.

EPIC DESTINY: THE DRAGON DISCIPLE
As a Dragon Disciple, you learn the secrets of an ancient race. Then you become one.

Prerequisite: 21st-level, Draconic Heritage or Dragonborn

Obsessed with your lineage, you’ve begun the pursuit of something greater than anyone could ever imagine. Your theory is that one could return to a previous incarnation through meticulous rituals and even more difficult incantations. You’ve since devoted your life to this goal and your journey to becoming a dragon has begun.

A Major Change in Lifestyle

The Dragon Disciple will do whatever he can to reach his end goal. Many go to lengths to portray themselves as dragons in disguise or cursed with a weak and fleshy body. The information below details the course followed by the vast majority of dragon disciples once they’ve achieved apotheosis. You may not follow this particular pattern, but that is your choice entirely.

Natural Instinct: Upon successful completion of your ultimate ritual, you leave the tamed realms of man and beast and find a home more suited to your new purview. This may be in a caldera, a tundra, deep in a steamy jungle or marsh. Occasionally, Dragon Disciples may even take refuge in the astral sea or another plane of existence. Wherever you make your domain, you build a lair and make ready to live for the next 1,000+ years.

Depending on how you came to be who you are now, adventurers may seek you out to destroy you and take your hoard, or they may want knowledge of your quests. The occasional dragon disciple may even approach you with questions about how to achieve similar ends.

All Dragon Disciples have the following features

Draconic Senses (21st level): At-will, you can sense treasure within 12 squares of you using Perception as well as a wizard could sense magic with the Arcana skill. Once per day, you can detect invisible creatures for five minutes or one encounter.

Dragon's Toughness (22nd level): You gain a natural bonus to all defenses equal to 1/2 your Charisma modifier. This bonus doesn't stack with heavy armor.

Magi-physical Body (24th level): You can always substitute your Charisma score or modifier for your Strength score or modifier and vice-versa.

Apotheosis (30th level): You become a dragon. You gain all natural attacks (i.e. claw, bite, tail) and the breath weapon of the dragon of your choice. You can fly at your land speed. You are Huge in size and considered a mature dragon. From this point forward, you age as appropriate for your new race.

Dragon Disciple Power

ENHANCE MAGICAL PROPERTIES Dragon Disciple Utility 26
You hoard magical items for many more reasons than just to have them.
Daily *
Free Action, Close burst 1 or Melee Touch
Targets: Up to 5 magic items within burst or held by adjacent allies.
Effect: Target gains one additional use of one of its powers. At the end of the day, any additional unused powers dissipate.
Special: At 30th level, you may apply this effect to one artifact you touch instead. 

But the difference here is, you maintain your HP and defenses. The only real dragon stuff you get are the claws, tail, etc. You don't gain their bloodied action or any special attacks, it's basically just more fluff. I don't suggest you trade your character sheet for a MM at 30th level lol.
To break this down, the dragon disciple at 30th level gets (compared to an arch mage)

Arch mage gets to cast a daily spell 2/day
Disciple can smell treasure and detect invisibility for one encounter/day
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Arch mage is completely unhindered by death 1/day and can return to life if his body is in tact
Disciple gains (roughly) +4 to defenses
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Arch mage can cast a daily spell 1/encounter
Disciple gains some useful physical attacks, a breath weapon, and flight.
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Arch mage can remember a spell and would probably do so to get a great upper hand
Disciple can give 1 item per person (him and allies) 1 extra use of 1 power per day.

Counting as a mature dragon doesn't mean anything mechanically. It gives you a basis for how long you'll live (near-immortality) and at campaign's close you dissappear to create a den and hoard gold.
do we know that for sure though? From a player perspective, it can be hindering even. You can no longer enter caves and stuff without the use of magic to make you smaller. If it still looks powerful after we have size rules, i'll mod it. But, I'd like to get a chance at seeing what other classes can do at 30th level before calling OP.

I'm totally going to do a side by side comparison of a 30th level dragonborn wizard/DD to the 30th level dragon in the mm (assuming there is one).
As Precursor to an Epic Destiny I will be posting later this day (or this week, depending on my free time), I created a Paragon Path. I present to you:






Scion of Bael'Turath

“I shall reclaim the power of my ancestors!”

Prerequisites: Tiefling, Non-good Alignment

When the nobles of the empire Bael’Turath decided to sell their souls for power, they did not regret this decision. They gained power beyond compare and went to conquer the world, only to be stopped later by the Arkhosia Dragon-Empire. Trying to reclaim the power of your ancestors, you begin to tread the in the same footsteps…

Scion of Bael’Turath Path Features

[indent]Infernal Aura(11th level): Once per encounter, when spending an action point, you are engulfed in an fiery aura that deals damage to all adjacent enemies, as well as enemies that attack you with melee weapons. Both take 1d6 plus charisma modifier damage from the fire. The aura can be sustained with a minor action.

First Infernal Coil (11th level): Tapping into the power of the ancient pacts your forefather made, your Infernal Wrath racial powers effects are doubled (double charisma modifier to damage, +2 to attack).

Black Step (11th level):















Breeze of the Nine Hells (12th level):

[deck=Breeze of the Nine Hells]
Scion of Bael’Turath Utility 12
Calling onto the pacts of power your ancestors swore, you use the hellish powers to make your enemies tremble before the harsh weathers of Hell.

Daily ? Arcane, Conjuration, Zone
Standart Action
Range: close burst 10
Effect: Slightly acidic rain falls, roughing the ground up. All natural ground is turned into difficult terrain.
[/deck]

Second Infernal Coil(16th level): As your body begins to slowly change to something more infernal, so do your bodily abilities change: you receive darkvision and gain +1 speed.

Word of Bane (20th level):

[deck=Word of Bane]
Scion of Bael’Turath Attack 20
You utter a word spoken only in the darkest corners of hell, inflicting terrible wounds on all who oppose you.

Daily ? Arcane, Psychic, Zone
Standart Action
Range: close burst 5
Target: All creatures within range
Attack: Charisma vs. Will

Hit: The Word of Bane inflicts 2d6 damage on all creatures. Additionally, they are weakened.
Miss: All creatures are weakened.
[/deck][/indent]








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Criticism welcome

dude this is freakin awsome!!! and now for some random pic

IMAGE(http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/ttokalli/kaatis/fail.jpg)