Female Dragonborn - No longer have breasts?

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Watch the latest GRZ carefully. If you look closely, you'll notice that the female dragonborn art, which appeared in Races and Classes, has been modified.

IMAGE(http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7158/fdragonborncp1.jpg)

Notice anything different? ;)
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[Edit: Meh. I don't even care anymore.]
yeah, I can't tell if that's armor or an odd (and not as well drawn as the rest of the picture, which I think is otherwise good) pair of teat lacking boobs, or just pectoral muscles. They kind of look separate from the rest of her body so I'm guessing it's armor. It would probably be a lot easier to tell with a larger and higher quality graphic, but that one is small and a tad bit blurry.
People still care about this?
People still care about this?

Some people must do, otherwise they wouldn't have made the change.
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I think as products come out we'll see female dragonborn with and without breasts to varying degree. The fluff never clarifies if they do or not most likely. It will just be artist interpretation on whether to give them more 'human' feminine features or not. I saw the picture and assume it was female by the overall design but honestly it could be a male dragonborn. After all when dealing with a non-human race we can only apply 'masculine' and 'feminine' traits to it so without text to state specifically its male or female we can't know for sure. Just look at dwarves and elves: you could swear most elves were female and that all dwarves were male just by body builds (and old dwarven depictions having bearded females).

The lack or presnese of breasts on a female reptillian humanoid race is just like any other visual trait done to give the viewer a visual clue as to the gender of the subject matter. It happens in real life too, prior to puberty everyone mistook my sister for a boy because she is not femine and didn't wear 'girls clothes'. Even now if not for the fact that she's bigger than an A-cup you'd have trouble telling she was a female, even her voice is lower pitched than mine and except on the phone most people don't think I have a female voice.
I think it's disgraceful the way WotC has bowed to pressure from the "No dragonboobs" crowd. By God, they made an artistic decision, and they should stick with it!

Or maybe I'm just partial to breasts.
I think it's disgraceful the way WotC has bowed to pressure from the "No dragonboobs" crowd. By God, they made an artistic decision, and they should stick with it!

Or maybe I'm just partial to breasts.

Even scaly ones?
Even scaly ones?

Scales or not, boobs on women are welcome!

Forcibly changing the art to please a small but vocal minority is down right offensive!

As always the majority just doesn't care, and I don't care, but they made a blasted decision! and should have kept with it, if only for consistency's sake.
People still care about this?

People EVER cared about this?
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I truly hope that they get rid of the reptilian breasts. If they change a bad, probably overlooked, artistic decision because of some constructive (I'm being charitable here) criticism from a vocal, wise, and perhaps more science fiction and fantasy literate than average group of fans, then more power to them!

Lets have a few truly alien player character races!
*siiiiigh*... Whatever. If any of my players make as big of a deal about this as many posters on the boards have, I'm going to ban Dragonborn at my table. Either that or make them prone to having enormous breasts and nipples growing randomly along their entire bodies based on a percentage chart.
Either that or make them prone to having enormous breasts and nipples growing randomly along their entire bodies based on a percentage chart.

Now that would be cool. Especially if it effected both male and female dragon more, and was contagious...
Either that or make them prone to having enormous breasts and nipples growing randomly along their entire bodies based on a percentage chart.

Now that would be cool. Especially if it effected both male and female dragon born, and was contagious...
Want to know what the difference is? It is not the size of the breasts. Nope, look closer. It is what they are wrapped in! The Dragonborn in R&C was wearing a plate-armor bra, and now she is wearing a leather (?) bra. Because she is a rogue.

Teh dracomams live.
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Want to know what the difference is? It is not the size of the breasts. Nope, look closer. It is what they are wrapped in! The Dragonborn in R&C was wearing a plate-armor bra, and now she is wearing a leather (?) bra. Because she is a rogue.

Teh dracomams live.

Most likely the breasts are sewn into the armor (as dragonborn wear everyone else's armor anyway).

All I can say is the lack of boobs make this medicine a bit easier to swallow. So I can't say I am not happy to see it happen.
Even scaly ones?

Indubitably. I imagine they would be soft as a snake's belly. And they should have them to show they aren't reptiles. Without 'em they may as well be lizardfolk.
At least I have my proper avatar now, I guess. But man is this cloud dark.
I don't really care whether the DB women have breasts or not, but I definitely think the new art is better.
I truly hope that they get rid of the reptilian breasts. If they change a bad, probably overlooked, artistic decision because of some constructive (I'm being charitable here) criticism from a vocal, wise, and perhaps more science fiction and fantasy literate than average group of fans, then more power to them!

Lets have a few truly alien player character races!

Can you prove that dragonborn are truly reptilian? Cold blood and all?

And constructive? Many of the posters at the time of R&C can be summarized by the following:
"OMG DRAGONBOOBS ARE WRONG AND SPIT IN THE FACE OF GARY GYGAXS CREATION YOU CANT DO THIS!!!11!111!!11ELEVENTYONE!!!!"

Most people in the target audience have not taken college level biology, and aren't very capable at discerning gender without the secondary sexual characteristics (facial hair, hip-to-shoulder ratio, voice pitch, jaw angles, etc.) or the sociological mannerisms attributed to gender (dominance, submission, assertiveness, meekness, promiscuity, speech patterns etc.) Most of which aren't present in dragonborn (h-t-s ratio is the only one I can think of, and sociological don't count). This creates the idea that there are only male dragonborn. This will create the dwarf effect, and will be changed to make it clear to everyone that female dragonborn exist. The boobs will come back, most likely in 4.5 if not 5th edition.

The artists and designers could easily take a more realistic approach by making females bigger than males and males more colourful, but many people, middle school and high school students (the target audience mind you) won't read the description. They'll look at the race line up and pick the dragonborn because the "dude looks cool" he'll be point at the female picture. When it's pointed out by the elitist running the game that it's a girl, the most liekly responce will be "That's stupid, it makes no sense that the men are smaller, where's that come from? I'll play a dwarf." Great way to alienate the consumer base!
I feel cheated.
The Dryad in WaM had breasts. If the tree can have breasts so can the humanoid. End.
People still care about this?

Yep. We do. Breasts on a creature that does not suckle its young makes no sense. I make exception for creatures that have a thematic reason for having breasts, e.g. the Dryad is specifically a sort of wood nymph like creature - a female tree spirit. If people want to argue that dragonborn suckle their young then that would justify breasts, but it doesn't seem to fit the dragonborn very well that they would do so to me.

Besides which, that piece of art is very good and it manages to look quite feminine without the need for breasts. Which shows talent on the part of the artist. I have a character concept (a PC if I get to play, NPC if I'm DM'ing again) of a dragonborn ranger. I'm going to see how long I can get away with not challenging people's assumption that its male before people twig its a female. :D

Not possible with breasts.
I've never been happier not to see breasts.
I have a character concept (a PC if I get to play, NPC if I'm DM'ing again) of a dragonborn ranger. I'm going to see how long I can get away with not challenging people's assumption that its male before people twig its a female. :D

Not possible with breasts.

Totally possible, actually. If they develop breasts, then it follows that some of them will be flat-chested.
At least I have my proper avatar now, I guess. But man is this cloud dark.
Totally possible, actually. If they develop breasts, then it follows that some of them will be flat-chested.

Fine - it's possible. But it becomes more contrived which takes away from the amusement factor and the point of it. Misunderstanding based on players making human-centric assumptions = Funny. Misunderstanding based on deliberately creating misleading situation = Not Funny.

@G-pa: :rotfl:
The Dryad in WaM had breasts. If the tree can have breasts so can the humanoid. End.

EPIC WIN.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Fine - it's possible. But it becomes more contrived which takes away from the amusement factor and the point of it. Misunderstanding based on players making human-centric assumptions = Funny. Misunderstanding based on deliberately creating misleading situation = Not Funny.

The latter is actually less contrived, since it doesn't depend on meta-game preconceptions, whereas the former depends on the meta-game preconceptions of the players.

Neither is particularly funny.
At least I have my proper avatar now, I guess. But man is this cloud dark.
The latter is actually less contrived, since it doesn't depend on meta-game preconceptions, whereas the former depends on the meta-game preconceptions of the players.

Neither is particularly funny.

No, the former is less contrived because it doesn't take effort on my part to set up - I'm not tricking anyone, the other members of the party are tricking themselves by having a human-centric point of view. The latter is contrived because I am changing something specifically for the purpose of fooling them - check out the meaning of 'contrived.' In the latter case, the player's human-centric assumptions are actually correct and my character is the one that is deviating unusually from racial norms.

As to whether it is funny or not, you may not be amused, but I think the moment of "wait - you're a girl?" will be a nice little role-playing moment that will bring a smile to everyone's faces. It's these little touches that make the game about role-playing, not numbers. YMMV.
It actually makes sense, with their racial +2 Strength and all, that even the females would have pecs.

Thank God for the removal. Now if only we can get the tails away from the tieflings and onto the dragonborn.
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Seriously? Debating about lizard woman breasts? SERIOUSLY?!
Seriously? Debating about lizard woman breasts? SERIOUSLY?!

You've not really been on this board much recently, have you? Well, congrats Wizards, you made artists change their artwork because of a bunch of whiners on message boards, nice.
The Dryad in WaM had breasts. If the tree can have breasts so can the humanoid. End.

I believe we have winner...

Seriously though, this whole dragon boobs thing is just stupid. It really just doesn't matter. If the anatomical anomaly of a non-mammalian a humanoid having breasts is enough to ruin your verisimilitude, how do you tolerate... well everything else in this game? Why do Dryads have breasts? Or how about this fun exercise: explain centaur anatomy to me. People never complain that these guys apparently have two torsos and all of the unnecessary extra features and organs that come with them (including a set of breasts on each torso, by the way). Basically, if you're not going to complain about Dryads and Centaurs having unrealistic and contradictory anatomies, you don't really have any right to complain about Dragonborn either.

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Can you prove that dragonborn are truly reptilian? Cold blood and all?

Its not a matter of proof, its a matter of taste. What makes a cooler fantasy world? A world with big breasted women in dragon suits, or a world where there is a truly alien, dragon like race. But I will say that I have never seen an illustration of a dragon with breasts in a D&D book.

And constructive?

I said I was being charitable.
I liked the breasts they made the dragonborn fems sexy *hides from all the rocks being thrown at him*
Why would they have breasts if they're reptiles?

C'mon, guys: don't be furries (or would that be "scalies"?). Just don't.
Haiku Police
I don't really care one way or another about the DB's chests. But, I would like to comment:

The Draconomicon does specifically state dragons are more closely related to cats than reptiles. However the precedence for scales in mammals is.. Fairly minimal. Not unheard of. Minimal.

Edit: I don't recall ever seeing a cat that needed a bra either, but that's neither here nor there.
Why is there a raging debate on the merits of dragon born having breasts when there is no raging debate that a dragon born could not possibly survive in a cold climate? If people are going to argue biology and science then the white dragon is the first creature that needs to be dropped. A cold blooded creature in an arctic climate is impossible. They would also have no need for clothing or armor and just rely on their scaly hides as dragons do.
Why is there a raging debate on the merits of dragon born having breasts when there is no raging debate that a dragon born could not possibly survive in a cold climate? If people are going to argue biology and science then the white dragon is the first creature that needs to be dropped. A cold blooded creature in an arctic climate is impossible. They would also have no need for clothing or armor and just rely on their scaly hides as dragons do.

Dragons have more in common with some dinosaurs than reptiles. They are warm blooded. Also scales afford only so much protection, especially when compared to things like steel.
Knight17; all the official material on dragons place them as Saurians, not Reptiles.

In the real world Saurians are class of warm-blooded scaly creatures that (to my knowledge, which is limited, as I care very little about dinosaurs) have never been proven to exist, but paleontologists created the class to explain how there could be 50 foot tall dinosaurs who survived in sub-arctic conditions.

Dragons have a feline musculature, a sapient/sentient mind and way to much logic-defying magic in them, including a magical dragon's heart addon thingy that is nothing more than a magical battery... And the ability to procreate with humanoids. If Dragonborn are as closely related to Dragons as it claimed, why would a pair of aesthetically insignificant breasts be a problem.

As I said, my only gripe about this is that WotC made a decision with the earlier pic; and by going back on it in this case, they have shown a degree of lacking backbone; something that I find offensive.
KIn the real world Saurians are class of warm-blooded scaly creatures that (to my knowledge, which is limited, as I care very little about dinosaurs) have never been proven to exist, but paleontologists created the class to explain how there could be 50 foot tall dinosaurs who survived in sub-arctic conditions.

Did you just say that dinosaurs have never been proven to exist? Or that warm blooded dinosaurs have never been proven to exist?

At any rate, saurians are lizards, not dinosaurs. Sauria isn't one of the groups of animals which falls under the order of dinosaurs.

I prefer boobless dragonborn for the same reason I prefer tieflings with huge horns and crocodile tails. They make the fantasy world seem much more fantastic.
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The only change in the pic you posted was swapping a metal bustier. They covered the top of the breasts in what appears to be a cloth shirt but didn't even cover her stomach which is exposed in both pics. The breasts are the same size in both so they didn't remove them they just changed the armor she was wearing.
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