A good night's sleep cures everything?

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6 hours of rest cures all hp damage? No lasting injuries from combat? That's a little bit strange, isn't it?

Unless lasting injuries are represented by something other than HP, which is also a possibility.

I know it's not a huge deal considering that 3.5e characters usually take a cleric and just burn all their healing spells before bed anyway, but it is a bit unusual in terms of flavor and versimilitude.
6 hours of rest cures all hp damage? No lasting injuries from combat? That's a little bit strange, isn't it?

Unless lasting injuries are represented by something other than HP, which is also a possibility.

I know it's not a huge deal considering that 3.5e characters usually take a cleric and just burn all their healing spells before bed anyway, but it is a bit unusual in terms of flavor and versimilitude.

I think it goes with the new abstraction that HP are more willpower and stamina instead of health and wounds. A night's rest will generally get you back most/all of your willpower and stamina. A stab wound will generally take longer...
...whatever
I think it goes with the new abstraction that HP are more willpower and stamina instead of health and wounds. A night's rest will generally get you back most/all of your willpower and stamina. A stab wound will generally take longer...

Thank you video game. Thank you for pimping my D&D.

Seriously. So now swords don't do any physcial damage. Its all imaginary. Its a blow to their inner child. Or mabye everything is now made by NERF. This has got to be one of the stupidest rules for any Pen & Paper RPG Iv'e ever seen, and even worse hiding under the guise of D&D.

Let me sit down and catch my breath a second. That huge battle axe really made me feel depressed when it hit me. I just need to find my happy place & recharge my batteries.

Wake up people!!! This is MMO. This is video game. Have your battle then sit down for a few ticks and maybe eat some rations to improve your regeneration rate.

Unless lasting injuries are represented by something other than HP, which is also a possibility.

I'm leaning towards this possibility. Lasting injuries, if there are any, should have significative and lasting effects that are independent of hit points. The removal of these injuries could be done through rituals or the like (requiring special materials and time, for example).
Thank you video game. Thank you for pimping my D&D.

Seriously. So now swords don't do any physcial damage. Its all imaginary. Its a blow to their inner child. Or mabye everything is now made by NERF. This has got to be one of the stupidest rules for any Pen & Paper RPG Iv'e ever seen, and even worse hiding under the guise of D&D.

Let me sit down and catch my breath a second. That huge battle axe really made me feel depressed when it hit me. I just need to find my happy place & recharge my batteries.

Wake up people!!! This is MMO. This is video game. Have your battle then sit down for a few ticks and maybe eat some rations to improve your regeneration rate.


You forget the most important question: How do you fight an emo :X?
Unless lasting injuries are represented by something other than HP, which is also a possibility.

This is in fact almost a certainty. With non magical healing availible HP now represents the fatigue and exhaustion that overcome a character until he makes a mistake and takes a serious wound (0 hp). Healing surges reinforce the idea, with a characters healing surges representing how much a character can push themselves in a day before being to exhausted to even have the clerics magic keep their guard up.

Thank you video game.

Actually every vediogame I've played does it the other way. Where being stabbed through the chest then shot point blank with a pistol before being slammed into the ground just takes some numbers off and you keep fighting. I don't have a problem with people playing that way, but claiming that way is more realistic is, well.....
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
Actually every vediogame I've played does it the other way.

I think he might have been referring to video game elements such as Final Fantasy tents, which equate full healing in exchange for extended rest (and the Gil to actually buy the damn thing; I'm happy running a LLG in FFVI, healing off my trusty Tintinabulum).
Thank you video game. Thank you for pimping my D&D.

Seriously. So now swords don't do any physcial damage. Its all imaginary. Its a blow to their inner child. Or mabye everything is now made by NERF. This has got to be one of the stupidest rules for any Pen & Paper RPG Iv'e ever seen, and even worse hiding under the guise of D&D.

Let me sit down and catch my breath a second. That huge battle axe really made me feel depressed when it hit me. I just need to find my happy place & recharge my batteries.

Wake up people!!! This is MMO. This is video game. Have your battle then sit down for a few ticks and maybe eat some rations to improve your regeneration rate.


Not all video games are like that. many 1st and 3rd person tactical shooters have body location used to determine death [2 arm shots or 1 head shot equal death Etc.].
If you are proposing that D&D should be more like that, with each blow dealing perminent and crippling damage resulting in near instant death, I'll pass.

The new emphasis on faster healing is to encourage more active and exciteing game play, people should be bold and not hold back when playing a high fantasy adventure game.
Not all video games are like that. many 1st and 3rd person tactical shooters have body location used to determine death [2 arm shots or 1 head shot equal death Etc.].
If you are proposing that D&D should be more like that, with each blow dealing perminent and crippling damage resulting in near instant death, I'll pass.

Heh, it sort of reminds me of the lesson I learned playing Fire Emblem. I kept wondering where I had to go to revive my fallen characters, only to realize that they were gone for GOOD.
The more characters can heal themselves, the more I can beat on them as the DM. The more I can beat on characters, the more action packed the game is. HP and healilng is still a resource you can empty. It will just take that much more violence to empty the tank. More violence = fun. Adding the 4E rule of extending negative HP beyond -10 has already made my current 3E game more violent by a significant degree, which is a good thing.
...whatever
House Rule possibility unless it's handled elsewhere in the system: being dropped to negative HP causes your Max HP to drop by one level-up's worth (5hp for the example of the rogue). You recover your Con modifier in Max HP for every day of full rest, or one point for every 6-hour rest, a week's worth of normal activity, or a month's worth of strenuous activity/combat.

In terms of fluff: normal HP damage could represent exhaustion and winding, being dropped to "bloodied" could be a heroic flesh wound, and being dropped to negative HP is a hit that takes you out of the fight and saps your stamina.
Heh, it sort of reminds me of the lesson I learned playing Fire Emblem. I kept wondering where I had to go to revive my fallen characters, only to realize that they were gone for GOOD.

Ya, the Fire Emblem series is harsh...
House Rule possibility unless it's handled elsewhere in the system: being dropped to negative HP causes your Max HP to drop by one level-up's worth (5hp for the example of the rogue). You recover your Con modifier in Max HP for every day of full rest, or one point for every 6-hour rest, a week's worth of normal activity, or a month's worth of strenuous activity/combat.

In terms of fluff: normal HP damage could represent exhaustion and winding, being dropped to "bloodied" could be a heroic flesh wound, and being dropped to negative HP is a hit that takes you out of the fight and saps your stamina.

See, now this is the kind of stuff 4e needs to start putting out to start drawing people back. This makes it less encouraging to just tank away with the looming possibility of being screwed for later encounters. However it should probably be proportional and not just if you go negative. It would still be a video game, but at least it would be a better made video game.
See, now this is the kind of stuff 4e needs to start putting out to start drawing people back. This makes it less encouraging to just tank away with the looming possibility of being screwed for later encounters. However it should probably be proportional and not just if you go negative. It would still be a video game, but at least it would be a better made video game.

You could houserule up something for if you drop to bloodied. I'm going off of the assumption that only a hit that takes you out of combat is important enough to heal from: everything else just needs a pretty girl to tie up your shoulder wound while you grimace and make manly pained expressions ;)

Even if there was something like this in D&D 4e, I don't think they'd show it off at DDXP, just like they didn't include rules for grappling and such in the preview info for 3.0
House Rule possibility unless it's handled elsewhere in the system: being dropped to negative HP causes your Max HP to drop by one level-up's worth (5hp for the example of the rogue). You recover your Con modifier in Max HP for every day of full rest, or one point for every 6-hour rest, a week's worth of normal activity, or a month's worth of strenuous activity/combat.

In terms of fluff: normal HP damage could represent exhaustion and winding, being dropped to "bloodied" could be a heroic flesh wound, and being dropped to negative HP is a hit that takes you out of the fight and saps your stamina.

I rather like this. Might use it in games where I want injury to be a factor.

Not my main game, which I want to be hugely cinematic - the current plan is for it to end with a fight against a god - but other, more down-to-earth games.
I rather like this. Might use it in games where I want injury to be a factor.

Not my main game, which I want to be hugely cinematic - the current plan is for it to end with a fight against a god - but other, more down-to-earth games.

Actually, it's also got me wondering how many variant rules will be included in 4th core.

A big feature of the D&D core books is the little sidebars that say things like "So you want a grittery game?"
We've always basically done this in our groups anyway. The tedium of managing the pathetic rest healing and healing spell slots just gets tiring. Consider this a chime in for heroes are heroes, and only something really critical should down them for that long.
Plus, the moment a smart group with somebody who has UMD of CLW on their spell list gets 750 GP, day-to-day HP in 3.5 ceases to matter anyway.
LOL @ blow to their inner-child!
T
Wake up people!!! This is MMO. This is video game. Have your battle then sit down for a few ticks and maybe eat some rations to improve your regeneration rate.

Since most MMOs are D&Ds little kids, meh.
Fact is worrying about hp between days is just an annoyance, game first game second game only.
If you really want to justify full heals after some rest, you can also say that clerics and paladins can channel the healing power of their gods to mend actual wounds completely over time. "Sleep, Brother, and let Bahamut enhance your rest" etc. It seems that the rules focus almost exclusively on combat-related mechanics (rituals and social encounters aside), allowing players to concoct all sorts of other fun things to fill in the gaps.
yeah I agree. I mean the few times ive had a cleric in a party they were always blowing every heal spell they had every night. The long game where we didnt well a type III bag of holding with nothing but healing potions came in handy. Now you no longer need that yay.
Oh, sure themocaw suggests a "Houserule" and it's "Wow, themocaw you're genius!" (Which, by the way this is not against themocaw who is, in my opinion, one of the more level headed and nicer people on these boards.)

"I" suggest using Houserules to change 3.5 to create a game more carefree and safe and suddenly it's "But we can't change everything!" "I might as well write the rules myself!"

Maybe it's the way I say things. I should work on my attitude. Maybe a good night's sleep will help.
It looks like 4e is explicitly acknowledging that HP is not simply a reflection of physical health. It is a reflection also of morale, drive, and a number of other factors.

Edit - The shift key press on the 4 was unintentional. Thanks to Loki5654 for pointing out my typo!!
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
Oh, sure themocaw suggests a "Houserule" and it's "Wow, themocaw you're genius!" (Which, by the way this is not against themocaw who is, in my opinion, one of the more level headed and nicer people on these boards.)

"I" suggest using Houserules to change 3.5 to create a game more carefree and safe and suddenly it's "But we can't change everything!" "I might as well wright the rules myself!"

Maybe it's the way I say things. I should work on my attitude. Maybe a good night's sleep will help.

Keep in mind this "house rule" is based off of incomplete information: my thoughts on how I'd handle lasting damage if WOTC didn't think of it themselves.
So now swords don't do any physcial damage.

Hit points have always been an abstraction. They've never represented pure physical-only damage. Even since the origin of D&D, even from the mouth (well, typewriter) of Gygax himself has HP never been pure physical damage.

It's a mix of everything. Wounds, will to fight, fatigue, everything. It's an abstraction and always has been.
I do agree that Hit Points has always been an abstract.

Only in a few games like the White Wolf system or Shadowrun do I think it's close to literaly "Distance between completely healthy and Dead"

That being said.. in 10th "How Does That Make you Feel?" Edition.. we will have transcended hit points. They will now be called "What Would you Like to Happen?" points. They work something similar to this (Note: Playtesting has not been completed for 10th Edition)

DM: You get struck. How does that make you feel?

PC: It makes me feel epic for taking such a mighty attack.

DM: Verywell then, What would you like to happen?

PC: Being amazing powerful and unstoppable.. I would like it to be a mere glancing blow. Something to give me a cool scar..

DM: Well Played (Note: In 10th Edition the DM must always compliment the players.), you are struck with a glancing blow that gives you a cool scar. Fortunately, the "Good Night's Sleep Rule" has been retained. And you are fully healed w/cool scar in tact.
The hardest part of transitioning to 4e, for me, is going to be learning to describe attacks in terms besides slashing, peircing and cleaving in twain.
Sig to be rebuilt soon The Descendants-- the webserial that reads like a comic book! World of Ere-- A campaign setting that puts style to the fore.
The hardest part of transitioning to 4e, for me, is going to be learning to describe attacks in terms besides slashing, peircing and cleaving in twain.

I think that once we see the flavour text that they are using to describe the various abilities that melee-type people have, it will be a bit easier.

That, and buying a thesaurus. :D
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
Stuff about MMOs.

Wish you were here, too.
DM: You get struck. How does that make you feel?

PC: It makes me feel epic for taking such a mighty attack.

DM: Verywell then, What would you like to happen?

PC: Being amazing powerful and unstoppable.. I would like it to be a mere glancing blow. Something to give me a cool scar..

DM: Well Played (Note: In 10th Edition the DM must always compliment the players.), you are struck with a glancing blow that gives you a cool scar. Fortunately, the "Good Night's Sleep Rule" has been retained. And you are fully healed w/cool scar in tact.

Medhia_Nox, that just made my day!
Sebby
"I'm a bonster. Rawr!"
Oh, sure themocaw suggests a "Houserule" and it's "Wow, themocaw you're genius!" (Which, by the way this is not against themocaw who is, in my opinion, one of the more level headed and nicer people on these boards.)

"I" suggest using Houserules to change 3.5 to create a game more carefree and safe and suddenly it's "But we can't change everything!" "I might as well write the rules myself!

And how does that make you feel?
... And are you gonna spend a what-would-you-like-to-happen point on that?
Sebby
"I'm a bonster. Rawr!"
Oh, sure themocaw suggests a "Houserule" and it's "Wow, themocaw you're genius!" (Which, by the way this is not against themocaw who is, in my opinion, one of the more level headed and nicer people on these boards.)

"I" suggest using Houserules to change 3.5 to create a game more carefree and safe and suddenly it's "But we can't change everything!" "I might as well write the rules myself!"

Maybe it's the way I say things. I should work on my attitude. Maybe a good night's sleep will help.

There are many arguments made have double standards. If your Pro 4th, you get to use all those arguments and hordes will back them up. But if your anti-4th you try and use one of those arguments and...well you saw what happened. Its complete poppycock.
Hit points have always been an abstraction. They've never represented pure physical-only damage. Even since the origin of D&D, even from the mouth (well, typewriter) of Gygax himself has HP never been pure physical damage.

It's a mix of everything. Wounds, will to fight, fatigue, everything. It's an abstraction and always has been.

I said "So now swords don't do ANY physcial damage."

I capitalized the key word in that phrase for you.

There is a difference between it being mixed representation and being almost purely exhaustion/morale based. A HUGE difference. To say that you can be in fight after fight and lose almost all of your HP in most fights and not require any actual physical recover is a complete joke.
Sebby, Auxmaulos.. you must now consider yourselves part of the Pro-10th "How Does that Make you Feel" Edition group.

Upcoming features:

"I Might Take a Minute To Consider Things" - New rules concerning Traps and how DMs shouldn't use them without telling thier players where they are!

"What Do you Think About This?" - Plot Devices To Use to Make Sure your Players Accept Your Hard Work on that Pesky Dungeon!

and "Life is Like A Box of Chocolates Full of Success" - Rules for Feats, Skills, and certain Success! Yum!
The HPs and healing recovery are the worst thing Ive seen from 4E so far... really really really bad ROLE playing game mechanics.
Sebby, Auxmaulos.. you must now consider yourselves part of the Pro-10th "How Does that Make you Feel" Edition group.

Upcoming features:

"I Might Take a Minute To Consider Things" - New rules concerning Traps and how DMs shouldn't use them without telling thier players where they are!

"What Do Think Abouyou t This?" - Plot Devices To Use to Make Sure your Players Accept Your Hard Work on that Pesky Dungeon!

and "Life is Like A Box of Chocolates Full of Success" - Rules for Feats, Skills, and certain Success! Yum!

Add: "This Isn't What We Want to Do Right Now" - random seeming encounter killing your player buzz? Consider it removed! NPC wants to talk to party about ramifications or complications to the party's super plan for defeating the BBEG ....avoided!

DM:"You guys are sneaking through the dungeon to get at the Dragonlords base of operations, throughout the web filled caverns the sound of clicking surrounds you, a large ominous form creeps around the corner, at first you can only see a few of many armored limbs until in brings the bulk of its body into view...and then you can see its eight eyes glowing a hellish crimson color, its fangs dripping vile poison... you can also see strange markings inlaid in the monsters chitinous black body and......"

Player "I don't know...."

DM: "What? What is it?!?"

Player "I just don't know about this encounter"

DM:"Ok?"

Player: looks around at other players in the group "yeah, this is isn't what we want to do right now".

(pause)

DM: "As you walk past the hideous ebony nightmare, it glares at you menacingly with all of it's eyes trained on your group. You try not to give it your back as you pass.."

Player "yeah....well, I don't think we are afraid of it" Looks around at other players as they nod their heads.

(pause)

DM: "As you walk past the spider, you can feel its eyes glaring menacingly at the back of your heads"

Players Nod heads in approval

DM: "So, how does that make you feel?"

Player "Well,.....we wanted to talk to you about your Dragonlord"

Player "Yeah....." (I can't get the sound of Lumbergh from Office Space out of my head)

(long pause)

Player "Yeah....."
Sebby, Auxmaulos.. you must now consider yourselves part of the Pro-10th "How Does that Make you Feel" Edition group.

Upcoming features:

"I Might Take a Minute To Consider Things" - New rules concerning Traps and how DMs shouldn't use them without telling thier players where they are!

"What Do you Think About This?" - Plot Devices To Use to Make Sure your Players Accept Your Hard Work on that Pesky Dungeon!

and "Life is Like A Box of Chocolates Full of Success" - Rules for Feats, Skills, and certain Success! Yum!

Yep. And it's still gonna be d20-based. Sort of. On average. Players will use a d30 and the scenery (10th edition term for NPCs and monsters) will use a d10.
Sebby
"I'm a bonster. Rawr!"
Hoping to get the thread back on track...

The HPs and healing recovery are the worst thing Ive seen from 4E so far... really really really bad ROLE playing game mechanics.

Why? Specifically, what sorts of games do you play, what is your ideal game, why does this negatively impact it, how could it be better? Alternatively, why does this negatively impact general rules of D&D?
My opinion, some people are over thinking this issue.

The HP-Recovery rules provide a more cinematic and exciteing game, they don't remove being hurt in combat they just downplay the importance of non life threatening injuries. It's very similar to how no rules exist for going to the bathroom in D&D, that doesn't mean that no one does just that it isn't worth wasting game time with.
All the healing and recovery time in 3E served only to break game flow and irritate people, it still exists in 4E but is more or less ignored.

For a visual look at this there's Conan The Barbarian. Meny people in that movie get cut up and/or beaten around, but except for the actual life threatening wounds they have no effect further in the movie.

Think on the classic quote "it's just a flesh wound"...