Rogue

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Nice!

Anyone have a clue what the "1[W]" might mean? I'm guessing it stands for the weapon's base damage. But what about the number before it? Is it a multiplier?
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Interesting;

Positioning Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A false stumble and a shove place the enemy exactly where you want him.

Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Will

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square.
Artful Dodger: You slide the target a number of squares equal to your Charisma modifier.

Looks like we've done away with the Feint action and gone straight to attacks vs Will Defense. It feels odd from a 3e standpoint, but I think I like it.
It seems the scale for damage is a bit lower.
It seems the scale for damage is a bit lower.

That's a good thing if you ask me.

I always hated having to roll 50 d6's worth of damage for each attack.
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Nice!

Anyone have a clue what the "1[W]" might mean? I'm guessing it stands for the weapon's base damage. But what about the number before it? Is it a multiplier?

Im pretty sure you have it right. 1[W] is 1 times weapon damage, 2[W] is 2 times weapon damage, and so on.
Im pretty sure you have it right. 1[W] is 1 times weapon damage, 2[W] is 2 times weapon damage, and so on.

It doesn't look like you add your ability score modifier to damage unless a special ability specifically says to. I wonder what that entails.

I also wonder if it multiplies along with the X[W]'s base damage.
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Im pretty sure you have it right. 1[W] is 1 times weapon damage, 2[W] is 2 times weapon damage, and so on.

That's my take as well.

Notice how all the Powers have Dex as the attacking attribute and Dex adding to damage.

Also, it appears that a Rogue armed with a "light blade" can ignore Armor Class and go straight for the Reflex Defense. I assume a "light blade" is a dagger or shortsword, though maybe a rapier would count. It's not one of their initial proficiencies, though.
There's lots of tasty tidbits in here.

They finally blew the cover off of level 1 hitpoints:

Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5

This also looks interesting but I don't know how it works:
Healing Surges: 6 + Constitution modifier

Skills look a lot more managed, with about six at level 1.

Damage looks like it is scaled way down which means the pit fiend may not be as gimpy as we thought. This goes to the less die rolling the better. That's sort of a bummer, I liked the 180 hit barbarians, but I can understand why and we won't even remember the damage spread in 3e in time.

I like the WoW like talent path things and I LOVE the maneuver-style melee things. My current games are almost always built around the BoNS classes who everyone loves to play and loves to see played - including me.

The stat attacks vs stat defenses are interesting. I hope they're not too complicated.

I'm guessing 1[W] and 2[W] are multipliers. A little strange verbage that might have gone over easier just saying 1x weapon damage or 2x weapon damage.
That's my take as well.

Notice how all the Powers have Dex as the attacking attribute and Dex adding to damage.

Also, it appears that a Rogue armed with a "light blade" can ignore Armor Class and go straight for the Reflex Defense. I assume a "light blade" is a dagger or shortsword, though maybe a rapier would count. It's not one of their initial proficiencies, though.

Not to mention Positioning Strike which apparently allows a rogue to directly attack Will and do damage.

I wonder if there isnt a mechanic we're missing that requires these attacks to hit AC first before being compared to whatever defense they are targeting (like poison in saga). This seems strange for Reflex-based powers though since everything so far points to AC being necessarily higher than Reflex.
could someone post a summary?

link is down for the moment

Summary:

Rogue

"You look surprised to see me. If you’d been paying attention, you might still be alive."

CLASS TRAITS

Role: Striker. You dart in to attack, do massive damage, and then retreat to safety. You do best when teamed with a defender to flank enemies.
Power Source: Martial. Your talents depend on extensive training and constant practice, innate skill, and natural coordination.
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Strength, Charisma

Armor Training: Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short sword
Bonus to Defense: +2 Reflex

Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges: 6 + Constitution modifier

Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others. From the class skills list below, choose four more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dexterity), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dexterity), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dexterity)

Build Options: Brawny rogue, trickster rogue
Class Features: First Strike, Rogue Tactics, Rogue Weapon Talent, Sneak Attack

Rogues are cunning and elusive adversaries. Rogues slip into and out of shadows on a whim, pass anywhere across the field of battle without fear of reprisal, and appear suddenly only to drive home a lethal blade.

As a rogue, you might face others’ preconceptions regarding your motivations, but your nature is your own to mold. You could be an agent fresh from the deposed king’s shattered intelligence network, an accused criminal on the lam seeking to clear your name, a wiry performer whose goals transcend the theatrical stage, a kid trying to turn around your hard-luck story, or a daredevil thrill-seeker who can’t get enough of the adrenaline rush of conflict. Or perhaps you are merely in it for the gold, after all.

With a blade up your sleeve and a concealing cloak across your shoulders, you stride forth, eyes alight with anticipation. What worldly wonders and rewards are yours for the taking?

ROGUE OVERVIEW

Characteristics: Combat advantage provides the full benefit of your powers, and a combination of skills and powers helps you gain and keep that advantage over your foes. You are a master of skills, from Stealth and Thievery to Bluff and Acrobatics.

Religion: Rogues prefer deities of the night, luck, freedom, and adventure, such as Sehanine and Avandra. Evil and chaotic evil rogues often favor Lolth or Zehir.

Races: Those with a love for secrets exchanged in shadows and change for its own sake make ideal rogues, including elves, tieflings, and halflings.
Creating a Rogue

The trickster rogue and the brawny rogue are the two rogue builds, one relying on bluffs and feints, the other on brute strength. Dexterity, Charisma, and Strength are the rogue’s most important ability scores.

Brawny Rogue
You like powers that deal plenty of damage, aided by your Strength, and also stun, immobilize, knock down, or push your foes. Your attacks use Dexterity, so keep that your highest ability score. Strength should be a close second—it increases your damage directly, and it can determine other effects of your attacks. Charisma is a good third ability score, particularly if you want to dabble in powers from the other rogue build. Select the brutal scoundrel rogue tactic, and look for powers that pack a lot of damage into every punch.

Suggested Feat: Weapon Focus (Human feat: Toughness)
Suggested Skills: Athletics, Dungeoneering, Intimidate, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery
Suggested At-Will Powers: Piercing Strike, Riposte Strike
Suggested Encounter Power: Torturous Strike
Suggested Daily Power: Easy Target

Trickster Rogue
You like powers that deceive and misdirect your foes. You dart in and out of the fray in combat, dodging your enemies’ attacks or redirecting them to other foes. Most of your attack powers rely on Dexterity, so that should be your best ability score. Charisma is important for a few attacks, for Charisma-based skills you sometimes use in place of attacks, and for other effects that depend on successful attacks, so make Charisma your second-best score. Strength is useful if you want to choose powers intended for the other rogue build. Select the artful dodger rogue tactic. Look for powers that take advantage of your high Charisma score, as well as those that add to your trickster nature.

Suggested Feat: Backstabber (Human feat: Human Perseverance)
Suggested Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Insight, Perception, Stealth, Thievery
Suggested At-Will Powers: Deft Strike, Sly Flourish
Suggested Encounter Power: Positioning Strike
Suggested Daily Power: Trick Strike

Rogue Class Features

All rogues share these class features.

First Strike
At the start of an encounter, you have combat advantage against any creatures that have not yet acted in that encounter.

Rogue Tactics
Rogues operate in a variety of ways. Some rogues use their natural charm and cunning trickery to deceive foes. Others rely on brute strength to overcome their enemies.

Choose one of the following options.

Artful Dodger: You gain a bonus to AC equal to your Charisma modifier against opportunity attacks.
Brutal Scoundrel: You gain a bonus to Sneak Attack damage equal to your Strength modifier.

The choice you make also provides bonuses to certain rogue powers. Individual powers detail the effects (if any) your Rogue Tactics selection has on them.

Rogue Weapon Talent
When you wield a shuriken, your weapon damage die increases by one size. When you wield a dagger, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls.

Sneak Attack
Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and are using a light blade, a crossbow, or a sling, your attacks against that enemy deal extra damage. As you advance in level, your extra damage increases.
Level Sneak Attack Damage
1st–10th +2d6
11th–20th +3d6
21st–30th +5d6
Rogue Powers

Your powers are daring exploits that draw on your personal cunning, agility, and expertise. Some powers reward a high Charisma and are well suited for the trickster rogue, and others reward a high Strength and appeal to the brawny rogue, but you are free to choose any power you like.
Deft Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A final lunge brings you into an advantageous position.

At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling.
Target: One creature
Special: You can move 2 squares before the attack.
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.


Piercing Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A needle-sharp point slips past armor and into tender flesh.

At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.


Positioning Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A false stumble and a shove place the enemy exactly where you want him.

Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Will

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square.
Artful Dodger: You slide the target a number of squares equal to your Charisma modifier.


Torturous Strike
Rogue Attack 1
If you twist the blade in the wound just so, you can make your enemy howl in pain.

Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC

Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Brutal Scoundrel: You gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to your Strength modifier.


Tumble
Rogue Utility 2
You tumble out of harm’s way, dodging the opportunistic attacks of your enemies.

Encounter ✦ Martial
Move Action
Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Acrobatics.

Effect: You can shift a number of squares equal to one-half your speed.


Crimson Edge
Rogue Attack 9
You deal your enemy a vicious wound that continues to bleed, and like a shark, you circle in for the kill.

Daily ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude

Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target takes ongoing damage equal to 5 + your Strength modifier and grants combat advantage to you (save ends both).
Miss: Half damage, and no ongoing damage.
Gotta say that I'm liking what I'm seeing and while I've never liked rogues in previous editions, a 4E rogue could be my first. Regardless, so long as filching abilities from others classes will be as easy as stated, I know one of my first fighters will be borrowing rather heavily from the rogue. Riposte Strike and Sly Flourish definitely have me intrigued as well.
Not to mention Positioning Strike which apparently allows a rogue to directly attack Will and do damage.

You mean the one I posted earlier in the thread? ;)

I wonder if there isnt a mechanic we're missing that requires these attacks to hit AC first before being compared to whatever defense they are targeting (like poison in saga). This seems strange for Reflex-based powers though since everything so far points to AC being necessarily higher than Reflex.

Well, based on the flavor text around that particular ability; "A needle-sharp point slips past armor and into tender flesh," it may just be the ability to ignore the Armor Class stuff and go straight through to Reflex.
I find it strange that the two skills rogues get for free are on the list of additional skills they can take up. Also, it does not appear that Intelligence effects the number of trained skills (if it does, it isn't showing).
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I'm liking what I am seeing! I have to say, this is very much what I expected, and I am plesently unsuprised by most of it.

Pleasant surprises:
- Skills
- Proficencies
- Static HP progression
- Healing Surges
- Class Features!
- Builds (that are optional)
- blah
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I find it strange that the two skills rogues get for free are on the list of additional skills they can take up. Also, it does not appear that Intelligence effects the number of trained skills (if it does, it isn't showing).

It's possible that they're listed that way for Multi-Classing purposes. That way a Fighter X who comes over doesn't get screwed out of Thievery or Stealth.
You mean the one I posted earlier in the thread? ;)

Well, yes, and there's Crimson Blade that targets Fort.

Well, based on the flavor text around that particular ability; "A needle-sharp point slips past armor and into tender flesh," it may just be the ability to ignore the Armor Class stuff and go straight through to Reflex.

Im worried that defenders may get screwed big time if you sick a bunch of rogue monsters with attacks that target Will or Fort directly. Imagine a party facing a group of 4 monsters with 1 level of rogue and high Cha scores (Artful Dodger rogues). They all walk up to the defender, target his Wis and move him 10 squares around the battlefield! Even one monster with 18 Cha could walk up, hit the fighter's Will Defense and move him 5 spaces out of the way.

I really hope you at least have to beat AC first and i hope this is an example of what Mike Mearls refered to when he talked about people overreacting to something when they have put counterbalances in the game. Maybe there is a safeguard in place that hasnt been presented yet.
[W] definitely means weapon damage. I remember that denotation from the Paladin Smites article.

Couple of things that give me pause:

- I don't like is the very limited weapon choices of the Rogue. Saps were too fun. And where's the rapier on that list? Guess the Ranger is the rapier-wielding swashbuckler-type? Or maybe such a type is indeed a Fighter who uses his powers for rapier tricks and then takes a few Rogue-training feats?

- Yeah, I'm also skeptical about Intelligence as it relates to skills.

- Positioning Strike with Artful Dodger could be pretty broken as it's written. Hopefully they put some limitations on the use of this power.

Other than that, all aces. Love the static HP progression.
could someone post a summary?

link is down for the moment


A downed link is usually a glitch in the Matrix. It happens when they change something. :P

EDIT: I could have sworn it used to be 18 hit points and not 12.
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A downed link is usually a glitch in the Matrix. It happens when they change something. :P

Hope this is just another black cat and not a flashback to the implements article.
EDIT: I could have sworn it used to be 18 hit points and not 12.

Nope, always 12.

Loooooooove static hit points, btw.
A downed link is usually a glitch in the Matrix. It happens when they change something. :P

EDIT: I could have sworn it used to be 18 hit points and not 12.

I still have the Firefox tab open from before that poster said they had problem, and it says 12 here.
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5

Static HP and Point Buy. May as well be playing GURPS.

They've lost my group.
Static HP and Point Buy. May as well be playing GURPS.

They've lost my group.

They haven't lost my group just yet (far from it), but I know of a few players who are going to be PO'd about the static numbers.

Also notice that the 5 hit points you get at each level doesn't seem to include your Constitution bonus.
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Well, they way its been presented so far, what were saves in 3.0/3.5 now become defenses. You won't be rolling your will save against that spell, the caster will be rolling some kind of attack (new base attack system + relevant ability score the spell requires) against your Will Defense. That fire ball is against your Reflex Defense. They're like special attack AC now.
I really hope you at least have to beat AC first and i hope this is an example of what Mike Mearls refered to when he talked about people overreacting to something when they have put counterbalances in the game. Maybe there is a safeguard in place that hasnt been presented yet.

I doubt you have to beat AC first. That adds in an extra step which slows the game and makes the abilities unlikely to work.

I'm sure the counterbalances are such that defenders can shut down strikers ability to move around the battlefield.

Also keep in mind that Positioning Strike is an encounter ability. It may move the defender around, but it happens once, after which ey can move right back.
Im worried that defenders may get screwed big time if you sick a bunch of rogue monsters with attacks that target Will or Fort directly. Imagine a party facing a group of 4 monsters with 1 level of rogue and high Cha scores (Artful Dodger rogues). They all walk up to the defender, target his Wis and move him 10 squares around the battlefield! Even one monster with 18 Cha could walk up, hit the fighter's Will Defense and move him 5 spaces out of the way.

I really hope you at least have to beat AC first and i hope this is an example of what Mike Mearls refered to when he talked about people overreacting to something when they have put counterbalances in the game. Maybe there is a safeguard in place that hasnt been presented yet.

I'm guessing that there will be defender powers that could prevent forced movement, plus, remember that there are no longer poor save progressions and, judging from the Pit Fiend (spurious as that comparison may be, so please don't jump down my throat), the four defenses don't seem to vary all that much. That and positioning strike is just an encounter power not an at-will one, so hopefull we can trust Mr. Mearls on this one like you stated.

Edit - Ninja'd by Moribund
Also keep in mind that Positioning Strike is an encounter ability. It may move the defender around, but it happens once, after which ey can move right back.

Yeah, but I wonder if it is capable of moving people off of say...a high cliff ledge or over a ship's railing?
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I certainly hope so.

Considering features such as "nearby cliff" are considered part of the encounter now and taken into account when designing, I think that's just what this power is made for.
Static HP and Point Buy. May as well be playing GURPS.

They've lost my group.

Really? Having PC survivability determined by the whims of random chance was really keeping you in D&D?
I imagine all "slide" effects will have some built-in mechanic that makes it possible, but more difficult, to move someone off a cliff.

D&D Miniatures v2 has such a mechanic. The attack has to succeed twice.
I doubt you have to beat AC first. That adds in an extra step which slows the game and makes the abilities unlikely to work.

If saga and DDM gives us any insight here, they are already doing this with poison. You roll one attack then compare it to AC and then the appropriate defense.

I'm sure the counterbalances are such that defenders can shut down strikers ability to move around the battlefield.

If they have a power that stops rogues from moving away from them it useless because the rogue moves the fighter away and if they can stop the rogue from moving close enough to hit them then they've rendered the rogue useless against them, imbalancing things. The fighter needs a way to resist Will attacks.

Also keep in mind that Positioning Strike is an encounter ability. It may move the defender around, but it happens once, after which ey can move right back.

Think about how encounters are supposed to include more attackers though. The fast moving rogue enemies go first and 2 of them move up, eaching hitting the fighter's Will Defense and moving him a total of 10 spaces back from where he was. The other enemies then decimate the wizard who was only 3 spaces behind him in the first place if they go before the fighter. Even one rogue with a decent Cha could easily move a fighter right out of the way of the wizard (Cha 18 means 5 spaces of sliding). I hope the fighter has some decent way to resist this.

On a side note, its easier for a rogue to push a hill giant 20' than it is to move an 80 lb wizard an inch. lol
Static HP and Point Buy. May as well be playing GURPS.

They've lost my group.

Sorry, never made much sense that a Barbarian could, through some stroke of bad luck, have less hit points than a Wizard.

I used the average HPs rule, which was presented in the 3.5 DMG, when I DMed and it turned out much better, for all involved.
The_Fan:

"I certainly hope so.

Considering features such as "nearby cliff" are considered part of the encounter now and taken into account when designing, I think that's just what this power is made for."

*Nods* It will lead to some interesting tactics for both players and DM, like Defenders keeping enemies close to a cliff till the striker can streak past the Defender and hit one off the edge.
On a side note, its easier for a rogue to push a hill giant 20' than it is to move an 80 lb wizard an inch. lol

If he can fool him into overbalancing and taking a few steps in one direction then good for him. I, for one, like the direction they seem to be taking with the new defenses having more meaning and greater application.
Is it me, or does this preview give you the impression that they have gone a considerable distance in simplifying the system while at the same time making the actual tactics of combat more complicated. Powers seem more like chess moves than nuclear bombs, and winning at chess is more complicated than dropping a bomb on the enemy.

Also, it mentions two builds/rogue tactics. It doesn't mention all the powers for the rogue, so its possible there may be other builds/tactics in the PHB. The article doesn't mention learning feats/weapon profs/other class features or talents as you level up.
...whatever
Lord Almighty... I just logged on to check if any new DDM stat cards had been posted. (Wishful thinking, I suppose. Soon enough, soon enough.) Then I saw this. I think I may have had some kind of seizure. It's like waking up, and realizing it's Christmas morning. Wow, just awesome.

I'm kind of in shock right now. I just wasn't expect this much awesome so soon. It's actually kinda like how I felt when 4E was announced.

I'm sure the counterbalances are such that defenders can shut down strikers ability to move around the battlefield.

Also keep in mind that Positioning Strike is an encounter ability. It may move the defender around, but it happens once, after which ey can move right back.

I suddenly imagined some kinda of Rock/Paper/Scissors-style metabalance system at this comment; maybe Defender beats Striker beats Leader beats Controller beats Defender?

Man, I've gotta calm down. I'm getting effing giddy here.
*Nods* It will lead to some interesting tactics for both players and DM, like Defenders keeping enemies close to a cliff till the striker can streak past the Defender and hit one off the edge.

I just got the mental image of a Fighter and an ogre battling furiously at cliff's edge, then a small, halfling shaped blur comes out of nowhere.

"YeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrraawwwarrrrBONK"

Flying headbutt, falling ogre, heroic pose, fade to black.
My first thought was - why such a sad little set of proficient weapons?

My second thought was - as was mentioned already - fixed hit points and point buy stats will kill the appeal of the game for a lot of people, my friends included, and maybe even me.

However, we have long house-ruled that you gained a minimum number of HP based on half your hit die, so wizards always gained at least 2HP, Barbarians 6, you get the picture.
So maybe the fixed HP is not such a big deal.

I still don't get the tiny and unappealing weapon list. Any thoughts? Will you have to take feats/talents to get more weapons? Have they drastically reduced the number of different weapons in the game? What about quarterstaff, rapier, shortbow, sap?

On the up side, I like the way the mechanics are nice and clean and uniform for the powers/abilities. Looks like it will be easy to run.
(Having a bad day for other reasons. May taint review somewhat.)

Thoughts:

HP's : No dice? What?... wait, I've not been using dice anyway. nevermind. As a note, though, as I want to use PC classes for NPC's eventually, I would like to have dice or rules to creating them AS npc's... I could use it as written, but variable hit points tends to be useful in monsters.

Weapon Proficiencies: Is it my imagination, or is their list of weapons even smaller then it ever has been before? Rapier seems to have disappeared. No Short Bows? Unless Weapon Proficiencies mean something different now, this list is overly restictively narrow. In fact, the list is downright boringly narrow. 2 melee weapons? 3 ranged weapons, of which only one will seriously be considered? What the heck? I don't see how this is to encourage characters to build different looking rogues. It seems all rogues are going to be using the same weapons. ALL of them. I don't like that.

Skills and Defenses: Already stated my dislike for the Saga system, moving on.

Races: Just out of curosity, is there going to be a class that the developers has chosen as the ideal one humans go into, or are they left out of the loop? This isn't really an attack, but so far I've heard very little about humans in the new edition. I worry that they'll slide back to 2nd Editions Only Play Them If You Don't Want To Be Even problem.

First Strike - Wasn't this flatfooted before? Do only rogue get the flatfooted bonus now? Why only rogues?

Rogue Tatics - Descent, could stand to have one more in there though.

Rogue Weapon Talent - Get a horrible feeling that upping shirkin from a d2 to a d4 is not going to increase it's use in play with Hand Crossbows being prefered. +1 to hit with Daggers probably isn't going to be a horrible insentive to use, either, but may make Daggers see more use.

Sneak Attak - The damage drop isn't a big deal if the talents make up for the lack of bonus damage, really.

---

Only one other thing enters my mind, and I am sure that if I look it up in the D&D Mini's handbook it'll be answered. Okay, so now saves are in the hands of the offenders. They hit your defense, and then you take whatever. When damage is ongoing, though, and is says save ends, Who is rolling what when?

Overall...Underwhelmed. It's what I expected, in a way, but I don't like how really narrow it feels, or how the class seems to have this "I choose your weakest save and attack that" feel to it, which I feel will end up being the choice for a lot of people by 3rd level.

---

Out of curiosity, has anyone done any Player vs Player testing to see how they act against each other? I've heard a lot of Players vs. Enviroment testing, but not so much about the player vs player aspect. It's kinda important for NPC fights, as well as for the occasional "My party is fighting" thing that is bound to happen in my kid's games.
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