Unintended Consequences

48 posts / 0 new
Last post

What's your favorite trick in 4e that exists solely due to poor writing? Doesn't have to be gamebreakingly powerful, but mildly abusable / inconsistent enough to be clearly unintended is what i'm looking for.

 

Examples might include:

 

  • O-ssassin shrouds Erachima-style leading to ranger-like damage output. 
  • Ire Strike Augment 2 allowing an ally to shift infinite spaces so long as they end adjacent to the target.
  • Forward-Thinking Cut Augment 1 not specifying either that it's supposed to be a pre-effect or that you have to charge using the unaugmented version of itself, allowing for up to 6 charges in one nova turn without an AP at level 7.
  • Trailblazing Assault not specifying 'unaugmented' in its Special: you can use this power in place of an MBA when charging, allowing for Chargedent Barrage chains.
  • Corellon's Boon of Arcane Might not specifying "level 1 at-will", allowing for ethereal sidestep or hexblade/binder pact boons as valid choices.
  • PMC not specifying "level 1 at-will", allowing for poaching Dual-Weapon Strike, a la Mia.

 

 Not thinking of too many more off the top of my head, but given that there's 3 ardent examples there, there's clearly plenty of poorly written/thought through psionic powers. 

I honestly think that the Rebreather trick was not intended work with hitting yourself.  I imagine they meant when you are dealt that type of damage by an enemy or the environment.

Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here

MC Cleric for BCL.

Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein

Matyr wrote:

I honestly think that the Rebreather trick was not intended work with hitting yourself.  I imagine they meant when you are dealt that type of damage by an enemy or the environment.

By RAW it shouldn't work anyway, since: "When a power has an effect that occurs upon hitting, missing, or otherwise affecting a target, the effect takes place only if the target in question is a meaningful threat."

 

Nirafelos wrote:

What's your favorite trick in 4e that exists solely due to poor writing? Doesn't have to be gamebreakingly powerful, but mildly abusable / inconsistent enough to be clearly unintended is what i'm looking for.

Maybe not my favorites, but to add some, at least:

  • Gauntlet Axe being slotless
  • Claws of the Griffon being 4 damage instances
  • Sharakim Blademaster's E11 being a quadruple hitter at least and being enhanceable by stuff like Long Step, etc. 
  • Resourceful Magician's E11 in combination with Mass Charm or Arti traps (with this one, I'm not sure, if it's unintended or not, since it's written very precisely)
  • Servitude in Death/Shackles of the Grave in combination with THP granting powers
  • Union of Three Fates being a triple hitter

 

 

 

Generator bladesingers. Not that strong, but I love the image.

pinkisthenewred wrote:

 

Matyr wrote:

I honestly think that the Rebreather trick was not intended work with hitting yourself.  I imagine they meant when you are dealt that type of damage by an enemy or the environment.

 

By RAW it shouldn't work anyway, since: "When a power has an effect that occurs upon hitting, missing, or otherwise affecting a target, the effect takes place only if the target in question is a meaningful threat."

Doesn't apply to any part of Rebreather unless you're trying to force move yourself by hitting yourself with Thunderous Breath or something.

 

My Favorite: Sarifal Blessing being it's own type of Vuln.

"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.

Zathris wrote:
Doesn't apply to any part of Rebreather unless you're trying to force move yourself by hitting yourself with Thunderous Breath or something.
It doesn't? Isn't the whole point that you're hitting either an ally or yourself in order to generate the damage? Preferably an ally, since that's easier to optimize around, but if the DM wants to call bag of rats, then you mostly just pull out a different character.

 

Revenant in general; too many cooks not paying enough attention to the ingredients.

 

 

Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director

The OP asked for favorite, and none of this is particularly to my liking:

 

- Voice of Thunder Paragon Path E11 poor writing basically making it an endless attack, repeatable every round

- Infernal Prince theme: Hellfire heart power asking for Primary Ability damage instead of Primary Ability modifier  nevermind

 

 

Keithric wrote:

 

Zathris wrote:
Doesn't apply to any part of Rebreather unless you're trying to force move yourself by hitting yourself with Thunderous Breath or something.

It doesn't? Isn't the whole point that you're hitting either an ally or yourself in order to generate the damage? Preferably an ally, since that's easier to optimize around, but if the DM wants to call bag of rats, then you mostly just pull out a different character.

 

Revenant in general; too many cooks not paying enough attention to the ingredients.

 

 

 

Zathris is right.  You can say 'I don't like that / its too strong / etc" to ban it from the table but the rules work perfectly fine.

Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here

Rebreathers are probably my favourite.  That and Lord of Fate Avengers with Rending weapons creating infinite damage loops.

Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.

Matyr wrote:

 

Keithric wrote:

 

Zathris wrote:
Doesn't apply to any part of Rebreather unless you're trying to force move yourself by hitting yourself with Thunderous Breath or something.

It doesn't? Isn't the whole point that you're hitting either an ally or yourself in order to generate the damage? Preferably an ally, since that's easier to optimize around, but if the DM wants to call bag of rats, then you mostly just pull out a different character.

 

Revenant in general; too many cooks not paying enough attention to the ingredients.

 

 

 

 

Zathris is right.  You can say 'I don't like that / its too strong / etc" to ban it from the table but the rules work perfectly fine.

Because of...?

 

I mean, I don't expect most DMs to cite bag of rats, but if one does, in what way is he wrong?

Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director

Because regaining your dragon breath when you take x damage is not the effect of a power? That's my guess anyways.

Keithric wrote:

 

I mean, I don't expect most DMs to cite bag of rats, but if one does, in what way is he wrong?


Well, for one, that interpretation breaks the difference between ally friendly/unfriendly powers. According to that interpretation, all attacks become ally friendly, because party members don't trigger effects of unfriendly bursts that they are caught in. Any DM citing that rule to nerf the rebreather is setting a dangerous precendent. After all, the rebreather is catching allies in the burst to trigger Nusemnee's Atonement to recharge the breath. Is all dragonbreath now ally friendly?

Basically what ekans said. The closest it comes to bag of rats is that you are using a power to indirectly damage yourself to benefit from a feat, which is the same as saying Ancient Soul only works with damage cause by not-you.

"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.

pink's interpretation also prevents BCL from giving allies a bonus to attack rolls. It's also not RAW, because at no point does it specify that the target has to be a meaningful threat to you or your party, so if we allow the target to be a meaningful threat to one's enemies, everything works fine - except hitting a bag of rats, because the rats aren't meaningful threats to anyone.

Unless they are, at which point the bag of rats ceases to be a bag of rats and starts being AAAAH A BAG OF RATS RUN.

Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.

pinkisthenewred wrote:

By RAW it shouldn't work anyway, since: "When a power has an effect that occurs upon hitting, missing, or otherwise affecting a target, the effect takes place only if the target in question is a meaningful threat."

 

Exactly. For the same reason, Healing Word doesn't actually do anything.

Bag of rats is pretty badly written. It's intended to stop things like out of combat punching a character with powers like renewing smite in order to get limitless surgeless healing.

 

Given that the DM has to read bag of rats and decide how it's interpreted, arguing that it could shut down _tons_ more powers is both correct and not very helpful. A DM can call bag of rats on rebreather and the trick stops working. He could technically call bag of rats on healing word... so maybe you shouldn't make him call it on rebreather, to prevent such crazed slippery slopeness? ;)

Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director

Keithric wrote:

Bag of rats is pretty badly written. It's intended to stop things like out of combat punching a character with powers like renewing smite in order to get limitless surgeless healing.

 

Given that the DM has to read bag of rats and decide how it's interpreted, arguing that it could shut down _tons_ more powers is both correct and not very helpful. A DM can call bag of rats on rebreather and the trick stops working. He could technically call bag of rats on healing word... so maybe you shouldn't make him call it on rebreather, to prevent such crazed slippery slopeness? ;)

 

Just means you should probably talk to your DM about what you are doing prior to bringing it to table.  If your DM doesn't want to let the rebreather work, don't bring it.  If your DM doesn't think martial healing should be able to bring you up from negative health, then don't bring a martial healer to table.

Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here

Exactly, yep. 

 

Oh, and it's worth note that the original "bag of rats" wording denies rebreather without also denying healing word. Apparently Rules Compendium introduced some errant definitions that potentially complicate life. Shocking, given how perfect the rest of the rules compendium is, I'm sure.

Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director

So old Bag of Rats applies because you are choosing to damage yourself? So you can't recharge breath by hitting yourself with a Torch either, and we can extend that to standing in a campfire you made yourself, but one made by other people is ok? Or is that also not going to work because you're "choosing" to be burned (assuming Fire breath of course). We could argue that because Rebreathers can get what, resist 60 fire that choosing not to get that much is choosing to take damage that isn't really a threat, so breath only recharges when you take 61 damage or more.

"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.

Whether damaging yourself counts for bag of rats obviously depends entirely on whether you are a threat to yourself.

can we..  can we not do this *points to almost all of the posts in this thread* again?  This thread is meant to be an entertaining read and it's already devolved into rules arguments.  Boring ones, might I add, that have been beaten to death over and over.  I just want to read what people think are quirky game elements that they enjoy being able to use but might not be intended to work in certain ways.  If I want a rules debate, I'll go read the threads related to that.  Unhijack this thread!

 

So to answer the OP, my favorite trick is the rebreather like Matyr because it's a beautiful combination of multiple game elements that, when brought together, manage to both be so very very broken and yet not immediately visible.  It's simple and yet difficult to understand fully.  Many knew about the feats but it took time for someone to really grasp the amazing destructive power that the build could unleash.  It's a fine line between what the RAI might be and what the general consensus is agreed to be.  It's the sort of build that when given to an inexperienced player, may very well cause the death of the character, not because of anything other than their own rebreathing.

"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Reapers Touch:  Not overly powerful, but you get a ranged 20 melee basic attack.  

Add Round About Charge to run around crazily and attack people.

 

 

 

Eerie Resurgence (+ Spring Step + Staff of the Traveler + Any teleport or shift booster + Falling Rules).

Free action to stand, which is a shift, which is a teleport, which can drop you 10', which deals a little damage and lands you prone, where you can stand up...

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Well, I think we're missing a couple of the elephants in the room...

Dragonshard items. They're at the exact levels you'd expect a slotted +1/3/5 item bonus item to be at. Yet they're unslotted. This is almost certainly someone at R&D not realizing they should be a typed bonus. And there should clearly be an equivalent for non-weapon implement options.
Backgrounds & Themes. The original backgrounds were much more powerful than the current ones are. In a sense, R&D sliced the original backgrounds into current backgrounds+themes. But the original ones are still available.

 

Both of those options completely influence the optimization of CharOp, particularly the Dragonshards.

Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

Well, I think we're missing a couple of the elephants in the room...

Dragonshard items. They're at the exact levels you'd expect a slotted +1/3/5 item bonus item to be at. Yet they're unslotted. This is almost certainly someone at R&D not realizing they should be a typed bonus. And there should clearly be an equivalent for non-weapon implement options.
Backgrounds & Themes. The original backgrounds were much more powerful than the current ones are. In a sense, R&D sliced the original backgrounds into current backgrounds+themes. But the original ones are still available.

 

Both of those options completely influence the optimization of CharOp, particularly the Dragonshards.

Eh...

Removing (or typing) dragonshard wouldn't change much.  It's simply tacked on damage.  Nearly every build would still be the same.

 

Not to say it wasn't a mistake.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Mello: it would change things in that the arms slot would actually become competitive, if you could get your item bonus to damage elsewhere - I'd take 1 point less per tier damage on most characters in exchange for something like Couters of Second CHances or some of the magic shields - or Shielding Blade Wrist Razors.  But it being untyped just means it's extra damage, and the Arms slot remains dominated by the +2/4/6 bonuses.

Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.

My current personal favorite is a non-combat exploit. A rather unfair "no one lies to the cleric" cheat. The party cleric is currently level 17, and his insight is high enough that Lolth herself, a level 35 diety of lies, has a decent chance of failing to beat his passive insight. Yeah, level 17, +32 to insight, and the thing is, he's not even fully min-maxed for insight. I've not looked to closely into it, but I'm sure he could squeeze in another +4 at the very least (and likely more).

 

And the surprising thing is, it doesn't really take much.

 

Just take Theme: Scholar and, by level 10, Feat: Traveler's Insight. Bam, a practically free +10 to insight. The cleric maxed his WIS, took a background that gave him a bonus in insight, and he's got the skill trained. He doesn't have any items that boost insight, and no other circumstantial bonuses, either. With these things (pretty much) in the player's control, you don't have to rely on the DM to give item bonuses to you.

 

And it really plays hell with the DM.

 

Just imagine you're interrogating someone. Is the person lying? Just ask the cleric. He'll know for sure. No creature that any party could have any hope of capturing could possibly have enough bluff to fool him, even if he's only half-listening. And with knowing every language out there, it's not like they can just talk in a different language to get away with it. It makes it much harder for a DM to purposefully mislead you with lies.

 

It's not class specific, either. Any WIS based class that offers Insight as a class skill has it easy. Other classes might not have it as strong, but a 10 WIS, insight-untrained character can be equal to one of the same level with 20 WIS and insight trained.

I'd love to read all that but your unnecessary bolding makes my eyes glaze over.

Knowing that someone is lying isn't all that great, since the person has to be consciously lying (#2 reason for using fanatical followers: they believe what you say is true, so anyone questioning them can't detect a passed down lie), it also doesn't help you discover the truth, people can continue to lie for as long as they want.

 

Still, it is nice for the inorganic skill challenges that LFR and most DMs are known for.

 

Better Trick: Take Damning Secret, now you can use your absurd Insight for Intimidation.

"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.

Oh, I haven't answered yet, have I?

 

My favorite trick that only works due to bad wording is everything in the Assassin's guide. Particularly Black Flame Form being indefinitely maintainable.

thespaceinvader wrote:

Mello: it would change things in that the arms slot would actually become competitive, if you could get your item bonus to damage elsewhere - I'd take 1 point less per tier damage on most characters in exchange for something like Couters of Second CHances or some of the magic shields - or Shielding Blade Wrist Razors.  But it being untyped just means it's extra damage, and the Arms slot remains dominated by the +2/4/6 bonuses.

Same effect would happen if you removed the +damage arm slot items.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

mellored wrote:

 

thespaceinvader wrote:

Mello: it would change things in that the arms slot would actually become competitive, if you could get your item bonus to damage elsewhere - I'd take 1 point less per tier damage on most characters in exchange for something like Couters of Second CHances or some of the magic shields - or Shielding Blade Wrist Razors.  But it being untyped just means it's extra damage, and the Arms slot remains dominated by the +2/4/6 bonuses.

 

Same effect would happen if you removed the +damage arm slot items.

 

No, because that reduces the overall damage, rather than make an interesting choice. Here's an interesting choice from a design perspective:
Have your arm slot unused, but need to do typed damage that is more likely to be resisted and need to get a wondrous magic item.
Have your arm slot used, but do untyped damage that isn't as likely to be resisted.

Then simply make arm slot items powerful and interesting enough that it is balanced.

Instead, it is 'how to simply overwhelm resist when it shows up' game.

Typed damage is so much more effective than untyped damage that I've wondered if WotC plays games filled with enemies with resistance, like hordes of demons. Who also have radiant resistance.

Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director

Keithric wrote:

Typed damage is so much more effective than untyped damage that I've wondered if WotC plays games filled with enemies with resistance, like hordes of demons. Who also have radiant resistance.

 

I think it is the typical fear of failure problem. They think the average player is worried their attack won't work at all, so they make lots of little incentives. Which they then forget all stack to the point of being able to bypass resist even if it is there.

Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

 

mellored wrote:

 

thespaceinvader wrote:

Mello: it would change things in that the arms slot would actually become competitive, if you could get your item bonus to damage elsewhere - I'd take 1 point less per tier damage on most characters in exchange for something like Couters of Second CHances or some of the magic shields - or Shielding Blade Wrist Razors.  But it being untyped just means it's extra damage, and the Arms slot remains dominated by the +2/4/6 bonuses.

 

Same effect would happen if you removed the +damage arm slot items.

 

No, because that reduces the overall damage, rather than make an interesting choice. Here's an interesting choice from a design perspective:
Have your arm slot unused, but need to do typed damage that is more likely to be resisted and need to get a wondrous magic item.
Have your arm slot used, but do untyped damage that isn't as likely to be resisted.

Then simply make arm slot items powerful and interesting enough that it is balanced.

Instead, it is 'how to simply overwhelm resist when it shows up' game.

Personally, I would...

 

item bonus = enchantment bonus.  One less thing to stack.

Dragon shards "enchant" weapons with a specific type of damage.  (i.e. it's now a battlecrazed frost weapon, much like magic ammo).

Resist are as common as vulnerabilities.  If 10% resist necrotic, 10% is vulnerable to it.

 

 

Or maybe some more fundemental changes, like you can only add an item bonus 1/turn.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The real problems are 1. monster HP grows too quickly proportional to core damage-scaling. and 2. average weapon enchantment is too weak and thus noncompetitive with frost's "lets you buy two other items which add damage", which really isn't even that great a benefit.

 

It's really too bad they nerfed bloodclaw the way they did, it was one of the few items that actually opened the field there. (Correct nerf was 1/turn, not 1/enc.)

erachima wrote:

The real problems are 1. monster HP grows too quickly proportional to core damage-scaling. and 2. average weapon enchantment is too weak and thus noncompetitive with frost's "lets you buy two other items which add damage", which really isn't even that great a benefit.

 

It's really too bad they nerfed bloodclaw the way they did, it was one of the few items that actually opened the field there. (Correct nerf was 1/turn, not 1/enc.)

1: I agree.  It's not the only math issue though.

2: A generic "everything from an item is an item bonus, everything from a power is a power bonus" would solve alot of these issues.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

You seem to be underestimating the problem. Even if Frost only let you take ONE other thing which added damage beyond normal boundaries, it would still be in the top 10% of weapon enchantments.

Adding to the list, Hybrid Executioner being able to deal extra d10 die roll with Assassin's Strike every level they don't (re)train an encounter power from their other class.

And now that I've finished Epic in both LFR and a Home game ...

Epic is an Unintended Consequence of making the game go to Epic.

 

I realize that 90% of everything sucks, and Epic content is no exception, but Damn ... I think the only actually intended consequences that show up in optimized epic characters are the "I didn't really die" effects that get handed out like brochures by booth-babes and that PCs are sexy barefoot* gods of death.

 

* Pants are also optional.

"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.