Weaksauce: An Overview of Class Deficiencies

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The first two were because I copied a pasted some stuff and neglected to take them out, despite literally saying to myself "Wardens suck as Hybrids"

Which Control Warlock PPs? Entrancing Mystic? The Warlock lacks enough great Charm powers to use it.

And Its not a great stickiness feature, its an solid one. The rest of the class' design and realities make it far less potent than it would normally be. Struggling to keep things adjacent and struggling to stay adjacent end up being the same problem.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Probably worth us trying to define a "controller pp" because frankly, I can see either including Planeshifter (it does improve your ability to control), or saying that basically EM and Pharlian Phantasmagorist are the only ones that you take because stuff like DO and FoH are just "+accuracy" which isn't the same.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
But when you're voluntarily repositioning yourself, you can be adjacent to the thing you want to be adjacent to. Which applies to both Blurred Step and LR.  It makes them bad at multi-target lockdown (something only Ultimate Defenders tend to be great at, lets be honest), but they can ruin the life of one monster per round and not let it get away from them. That is pretty sticky. Plus it isn't like they need things to be adjacent, within 5 is enough for LR, and the target doesn't even need to be marked.

The primary criticsm of Battleminds as defenders (other then the MBA issue) was always a weak punishment (that ought to be a category, actually, Cavaliers would qualify, Paladins qualify without a fair bit of investment). Mindspike just isn't that hot, but then MM3 was released and monsters started doing a lot more damage. Shielding Swordmages suffered in the other direction, their native punishment is now a lot weaker, with damage higher. It used to be decent, now you go shielding for the riders (well, rider).

Zelink, will you go into more detail on some of the points? Like listing which builds exactly aren't useful. You already specified the levels Wardens aren't capable of doing their job. To explain more in such a way would be a great help.
Probably worth us trying to define a "controller pp"


- Getting more targets in your bursts/blasts
- Save penalties
- Controller powers
I am not an English native speaker. What is meant by "Lack of MULTI-TAPS"? I recall this expression as a text entry system for mobile phones. Is - in this case - multi-taps referring to some sort of combinations or "combos", like minor/free action attacks and out-of-turn attacks? I am not sure.
I am not an English native speaker. What is meant by "Lack of MULTI-TAPS"? I recall this expression as a text entry system for mobile phones. Is - in this case - multi-taps referring to some sort of combinations or "combos", like minor/free action attacks and out-of-turn attacks? I am not sure.

"Multi-taps" usually references powers that result in multiple damage instances. Twin Strike being the most famous example. Flame Spiral being another.

"Off-action" attacks usually refers to attacks that are not Standard actions (move, minor, opportunity, immediate, free). Off-action attacks also result in strikers having a sufficent number of damage instances to keep up with monster HP.

I think Zelink is combining the two terms to indicate if a striker has sufficient access to multiple damage instances.
Ah, so Multi-Tap usually means powers, which already include multiple attacks, the like fighter's "Rain of Blows". Thanks!
Since this thread is a kind of "Don't say we didn't warn you" from CHAROP should we/you include instances where an inexperienced player would not understand the concept of a class or have different expectations for the class that make sense from liturature?

Like the PHB fighter not being  an unstopable killing machine by default or the wizard not being an army destroying auto win.

Or explaining Ardent and Battlemind to people with limited Fantasy/SciFi experience.
The sea looks at the stabillity of the mountian and sighs. The mountian watches the freedom of the sea and cries.
No, because then the entire thread will devolve into an argument about why people who want to play DnD to jack their god-wizard off into the faces of a captive audience are despicable human beings who deserve no concessions whatsoever from the rules.
Ah, so Multi-Tap usually means powers, which already include multiple attacks, the like fighter's "Rain of Blows". Thanks!



A multi-attack is simply where there are multiple targets in one power.

A multi-tap is where a target takes more than one damage instance from the source. 

Hence why Flame Spiral, which is both, is so good.
A multi-attack is simply where there are multiple targets in one power.



No, no it is not. That's an AoE attack, nobody uses multiattack that way.

Multiattacks attack the same person more than once.

Multitap is a slightly broader term that incorporates abilities that attack a person once but damage them more than once.

Abilities that attack multiple people more than once are known as "broken"
A multi-attack is simply where there are multiple targets in one power.



No, no it is not. That's an AoE attack, nobody uses multiattack that way.

Multiattacks attack the same person more than once.




Both area and close powers can be multi-attacks.  Pretty sure most people refer to Twin Strike as multi-attack and Surprising Stab as multi-tap (even though it is two attack rolls - since it is the same target) but YMMV.

Both area and close powers can be multi-attacks.



Technically, yes, but you can count the number of AoE multiattacks that exist on your fingers.
I am not an English native speaker. What is meant by "Lack of MULTI-TAPS"? I recall this expression as a text entry system for mobile phones. Is - in this case - multi-taps referring to some sort of combinations or "combos", like minor/free action attacks and out-of-turn attacks? I am not sure.

"Multi-taps" usually references powers that result in multiple damage instances. Twin Strike being the most famous example. Flame Spiral being another.

"Off-action" attacks usually refers to attacks that are not Standard actions (move, minor, opportunity, immediate, free). Off-action attacks also result in strikers having a sufficent number of damage instances to keep up with monster HP.

I think Zelink is combining the two terms to indicate if a striker has sufficient access to multiple damage instances.


You'll want to define that in the first post as it looks like we have diffreent ideas on what that means.
No, that's pretty much what Multi-tap and Off-action (or non-standard) have always meant.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I think the most worthwhile point is something I'm currently stuck on. What is a good controller PP?

There are less than 5 PPs that penalize saving throws, and most aren't great.
Most PP encounter powers are very good at control
There aren't many PP features than penalize attacks or impart control.

What are the top tier Wizard PPs?

Divine Oracle
Entrancing Mystic
Phiarlian Phantasmist
Messenger of Peace
Planeshifter

And the top tier Invoker PPs?
Divine Oracle
Morninglord
Devoted Orator
Flame of Hope
Hammer of Vegeance

Now lets look at each

DO-Its basically +action and +Accuracy, no +control
EM-Accuracy, penalizing saving throws, great +control
Phiarlian Phantasmist, solid powers, penalizing Saving throwing, +control
Messenger of Peace-really good control powers, +defenses, penalizing attacks, +control
Planeshifter, outside of the encounte power, not a ton of +control, but some general good benefits
Morninglord-Pure +leader and +damage, no control
Devoted Orator-+damage and bigger bursts, no control
Flame of Hope- +lead, no +control
Hammer of Vengeance, a solid group of power and features, probably the most control focused of the PPs.

So what do we have? About the 1/2 top tier controller PPs have any focus on control, and even most of those have their focuses in a few directions. 

Just some musings.


 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
You forgot Keeper of the Nine for Invoker. Though, really, Invoker PP selection is just fanastic.
Well, from a strictly philosophical point of view, if the definition of a word creates an issue... change the definition :D

Anyway, as i wrote before, i don't think that Invokers and Wizards should have that tag. Probably Invokers have better choices, overall, but you're not running a class-comparison thread.  
Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

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The PP's the generally provide the most +control are the more average Defender ones (ex. Son of Mercy as one of the better) that do stuff like "when you AP, you immobilize/slow/prone/slide targets you hit/are marked by you/are adjacent" and a lot of the worst striker and leader ones (seriously shaman, your spirit isn't supposed to replace your party members)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
A number of the Blue-rated wizard paragon paths improve control, such as by repositioning enemies (Arcane Wayfarer, Enigmatic Nethermancer), increasing burst size (Master of Flame), battlefield control through encounter wall powers (Rimetongue Caller, Spellstorm Mage), or improving your summon spells (Bonded Summoner).

So it strikes me that the wizard has a good selection of in-class control paragon paths. There's a wide difference between "the best PP is from another class" and "there are no good in-class PPs".

Indeed - it strikes me as very odd to claim, for instance, that Devoted Orator provides bigger bursts, no control - bigger bursts ARE more control, they add more targets to your control powers.  Enhancing burst size is one of the best ways to increase control on a class which already has the best powers and some of the best features to provide it in the first place.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
What I think it really boils down to for the most part, is that you can't land control if you can't hit your desired targets and/or as many targets as possible. And PPs that consistently make landing control easier are much more valuable than PPs that add additional control, but fail to hit consistently. And that's especially true for dailies.

Let's say a Wizard has a 75% to-hit chance and wants to use a burst power that will hit two targets. That's an average of 1.5 hits. With a double-roll, it is 94% or 1.88 hits and you're reasonably certain you'll hit your most favored target. If you can add an additional target, you'll average 2.25 hits, though you lose the certainty of hitting your favored target.

Dreamwalker is a great control paragon path for psions for that reason - you'll almost always add an additional target when using area bursts.

And that's why Wizard paragon paths don't look so great - some of them do add additional solid control, but getting double rolls or additional targets is so much more valuable from a practical perspective.
I think that's not so much an issue with other paragon paths being weak, but with Divine Oracle and the like being overpowered. Let's face it, if there was a striker paragon path that gave double rolls on all your attacks, then that would also be miles better than (almost) every other striker PP printed. Except for avengers, of course.
You've probably got a point there.  Even with the downside (which is a lot less of a downside than it used to be thanks to Sup Will), most melee characters would give their right arm to roll twice on all attacks, and it would massively enable critfishing as a more viable strategy.

But then, that's getting back to the tyranny of accuracy, isn't it?
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Depends. A lot of strikers are hitting on 2s as it is. Going from 95% to 99% is a small jump, especially since for the occasional 1 most of them have at least one encounter reroll. There is a real point where rolling twice is primarily useful for crit-fishing, not ensuring you hit. Plus that would not make a strong PP by itself, not by a long way.

"Overpowered" is a pretty variable term. From the handbook of the broken: "As a rule of thumb, if the DM can compensate without involving the players it's not worth mentioning in this handbook."

DO is not "overpowered" by that definition.
But then, if you get double rolls, you may be able to drop some of the accuracy boosters in exchange for damage boosters and maintain your hitrate and DPR.

But yeah, it would be probably more useful for critfishing, as I noted.

The funny thing is that our Planeshaper Divine Oracle wizard rarely crits, and his crits remove the target from play, so they're pretty vicious...
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Good idea for a guide. Random comments...

Paladin
I do not agree that it has lackluster Daily powers. Well, the Strength-based powers are a little worse than the Charisma-based powers, but there are still some good ones. 

Warlord
Certain builds have major problems with AC.

Warlock
Is "excessively fiddly" an identifiable problem?

Paladin, Warlock, Skald-Bard, possibly Ranger, others who depend upon Minor Actions to do their thing
Well, they depend upon minor actions to do their thing. That's a problem in many situations.
Warlord
Certain builds have major problems with AC.


Chain + Light shield is passible. Those who don't have int (i.e. str-cha) can easily afford the 13 con for scale prof - or battlefront leaders can take armoured warlord without the con requirement.
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Paladins only have one great daily per tier for Charisma Builds, and less for Str builds
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!