Kerrus' Whiplement caster

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inspired by the bola/netizards that have been popping up, I decided to try and see if I could optimize the lowly whip. And I discovered, in fact, I could.

All right. Now that I've smashed my incorrect preconceptions, let's get down to business.

The name of the game is Chilling Cloud. It's the power you'll be using the most and in turn getting the most out of. We're wizards, not strikers- even if we may have hybrided into one. We're in this game to control and confound. And that's just what we'll do.

Chilling cloud, for the record, is a nice little low damage power. No damage rolls, just flat int modifier damage, but it's an area burst 1 within 10. The real treat is that everyone it hits takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of our next turn.

But we're not stopping there- we're whiplement users. Via hybriding implements, and a disruptive whip, whenever we hit an enemy with a whip, we get to pick a target- and the enemy takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls against that target until the end of our next turn.

Already, you're hitting multiple enemies, who are going to be taking a -4 to attack rolls against a given target, and a -2 against everyone else. Originally I thought one could gith psychic lock the power, but I've discovered that dual implements don't work like that. Alas.

But we're not done yet, because there's so much more that can be done, so let's get to it.

The first is a favourite of mine: Mark of storm. It's not very useful at the heroic tier of the game because we won't be dealing much thunder or lightning damage- but on cometh paragon.

I've arcane admixtured Chilling Cloud into Chilling Booming Cloud- it's a thunder/cold power now. And I've taken some feats to help that out.

1. Resounding Thunder: This increases the 'Area 1 burst within 10' to 'Area 2 burst within 10.' That's a nice big area of effect there to be sure.
2. Solid Sound: After I use any power with the thunder keyword, such as the previously admixed Chilling Booming Cloud, I get a +2 to a non-AC defence of my choice. Those enemies will be looking to take me out of the picture so they can actually hit people, yanno.
3. To capitalize on the fact that granting such blanket penalties to such a decent area, I've picked up White Lotus (Master) Riposte. Thus, whenever one of my targets manages to hit me through the penalties, and bonuses, I can hit him back- but more importantly, since I'll be using chilling cloud, I can reposition, to catch any enemies nearby that I missed the first time around.

But there's more then just that- because the penalty the whip grants is only against a specific target. If I choose to hit targets I've already hit, then I can pick a second target for them to take the penalty on. -4 to attack rolls is potent, just look at cloaks of distortion. But these penalties don't adhere to such condtionals as 'ranged attacks from 6+ squares away'. So already, it's inherently better. Coupled with the range, and other possible amusement, and you have always useful technique for really, really snazzy battlefield control.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Garth Whiplement User_ the Untouchable, level 14
Shadar-kai, Wizard|Avenger, Abiding Reaper
Hybrid Avenger: Hybrid Avenger Will
Hybrid Talent: Armor of Faith
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Arcane Admixture Power: Chilling Cloud

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 22, Wis 19, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 12, Dex 11, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 8.


AC: 28 Fort: 20 Reflex: 23 Will: 23
HP: 90 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +16, Arcana +18, Religion +18, Perception +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +11, Endurance +8, Heal +11, History +13, Insight +11, Intimidate +6, Nature +11, Stealth +11, Streetwise +6, Thievery +9, Athletics +9

FEATS
Level 1: Two-Blade Warrior
Level 2: Whip Training
Level 4: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 6: White Lotus Defense
Level 8: Hybrid Talent
Level 10: Improved Armor of Faith
Level 11: Arcane Admixture
Level 12: Resounding Thunder
Level 14: Solid Sound

POWERS
Hybrid Avenger at-will 1: Radiant Vengeance
Hybrid Wizard at-will 1: Chilling Cloud
Hybrid encounter 1: Grasping Shadows
Hybrid daily 1: Renewing Strike
Hybrid utility 2: Distracting Flare
Hybrid encounter 3: Enmity's Reach
Hybrid daily 5: Stinking Cloud
Hybrid utility 6: Wizard's Escape
Hybrid encounter 7: Enemies Abound
Hybrid daily 9: Ice Storm
Hybrid utility 10: Channel Endurance
Hybrid encounter 13: Prismatic Burst (replaces Enmity's Reach)

ITEMS
Disrupting Whip +3
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
Oh Content, where art thou?
Fixed and open for business.
Oh Content, where art thou?
Love the idea, but I've got a question:
FEATS
Level 1: Two-Blade Warrior
Level 2: Whip Training
Level 4: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 6: White Lotus Defense
Level 8: Hybrid Talent
Level 10: Improved Armor of Faith
Level 11: Arcane Admixture
Level 12: Resounding Thunder
Level 14: Solid Sound

AFAIK, Two-Balde Warrior and Whip Training are both Multiclass Feats, so you can't get both. Is there something I'm missing that allows you to take both?

Edit: Also, why the Avenger Hybrid? I don't see anything that requires you to be an Avenger. Why not go, say, Warlord Hybrid and take Warlord Armor Proficiency? That also means you're a Martial class and don't need Two-Blade Warrior.

Edit 2: Nevermind, I just noticed why the Avenger Hybrid. It's to be proficient with Holy Symbols and being able to use the (Disrupting) Whip as an Implement, right?
3. To capitalize on the fact that granting such blanket penalties to such a decent area, I've picked up White Lotus (Master) Riposte. Thus, whenever one of my targets manages to hit me through the penalties, and bonuses, I can hit him back- but more importantly, since I'll be using chilling cloud, I can reposition, to catch any enemies nearby that I missed the first time around.

Unfortunately, that's a widely spread misconception. Note that WLMR specifically says you repeat the "at-will attack power's attack" against that enemy, not the full at-will. Still, another -4 to attack for that target can make a huge difference in the next turn.
AFAIK, Two-Balde Warrior and Whip Training are both Multiclass Feats, so you can't get both. Is there something I'm missing that allows you to take both?

Well, I don't see it in the OP, but the Windrise Ports background would allow him to multiclass in both Ranger and the Whip.
Well, I don't see it in the OP, but the Windrise Ports background would allow him to multiclass in both Ranger and the Whip.

Oh, there's a background that lets you MC in 2 classes? Nice!
Why do you need two-bladed warrior? Wouldn't a staff or orb in the offhand work better for you?
Windrise ports it is.

And I need two blade warrior to be a martial class so I can get whip training.
Oh Content, where art thou?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this same basic trick work with bolas as well? If I recall, they sacrifice damage to immobilize until the end of your next turn, right? That would be some crazy control.

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71235715 wrote:
As I first read the windrise ports background, my initial thoughts were of finally taking whip training for a non martial non bard character. But then, much to my dismay, I actually READ the background - and it specifies that "You can take class-specific multiclass feats for two classes other than your own, rather than one. You also gain one additional language of your choice." Notice that non class-specific multiclass feats (such as net/whip/bola training) are specifically left out of the benefit.
If they weren't class-specific(they do count as class-specific, by the way), they wouldn't have any restrictions on taking them, period.
They count as 'multiclass' feats, but not as 'class-specific' feats.

The specific text in question would be, from page 73 of Dragon 368, "Since the weapon mastery training feats require a great deal of focused training, each one is a multiclass feat. Normal rules for selecting multiclass feats apply." It does nothing to address them as being class-specific.

Also, you should notice all class-specific multiclass feats have a keyword or subtext (or however you wish to name it) such as [Multiclass Fighter] or [Multiclass Bard] or [Multiclass Avenger] etc., which names the specific class. The weapon training feats lack this specification.

I brought this up to Cust Serv back in February, and the rules loophole was affirmed after much escalation - it was then 'escalated' to development, theoretically, for a future FAQ or some such. Of course nothing has been done since (that I have seen, at te least)
I feel the need to overrule you.

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Oh Content, where art thou?
As I first read the windrise ports background, my initial thoughts were of finally taking whip training for a non martial non bard character. But then, much to my dismay, I actually READ the background - and it specifies that "You can take class-specific multiclass feats for two classes other than your own, rather than one. You also gain one additional language of your choice." Notice that non class-specific multiclass feats (such as net/whip/bola training) are specifically left out of the benefit.

The only restrictions on muliple multiclass feats are based on them being class specific:
Second, once you take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific feat for a different class.

So they either are class specific, and the background lets them take one along with another class specific feat, or they're not class specific and no one needs the background to take a weapon multiclass and a class specific multiclass.
The only restrictions on muliple multiclass feats are based on them being class specific:


So they either are class specific, and the background lets them take one along with another class specific feat, or they're not class specific and no one needs the background to take a weapon multiclass and a class specific multiclass.

Or they are not class-specific but they *are* multiclass feats, which would preclude you from taking another multiclass feat. Note that if they weren't class- specific, you would be able to take more than one of the weapon multiclass feats...

Also, what weapon types can be (disrupting)?
The restriction isn't on taking multiclass feats; it's specifically on taking "class-specific feat[s] for a different class." Again, weapon multiclasses are either class specific and work with the background or aren't and have no restriction on being taken after other multiclassing. I prefer to consider them class specific.

Flails, hammers, and maces can be disrupting.
The restriction isn't on taking multiclass feats; it's specifically on taking "class-specific feat[s] for a different class." Again, weapon multiclasses are either class specific and work with the background or aren't and have no restriction on being taken after other multiclassing. I prefer to consider them class specific.

Which is why I ended my post with "I brought this up to Cust Serv back in February, and the rules loophole was affirmed after much escalation - it was then 'escalated' to development, theoretically, for a future FAQ or some such. Of course nothing has been done since (that I have seen, at the least)"

Many of us would prefer to think of them as class-specific; however they are not.
Dragon 373.
So uh.... if I'm reading this right, either they're class specific and you need windrise ports to take them and another multiclass class specific feat, or they're not class specific, and you don't need to take windrise ports to take them and another class specific feat.

How the hell does this have anything to do with the build?

Moreover, if you knew it wasn't an issue in the first place, why the hell did you bring it up?
Oh Content, where art thou?
Though Sithobi pointed this out, he may not have been clear enough:

Dragon 373 clarifies that weapon multiclass feats are in fact class-specific MC feats, and so exclude other multiclassing (unless you're a bard or from the Windrise Ports).

It says specifically:

Weapon Mastery feats have appeared before in “We Who Are About to Die . . .” (Dragon 368, page 56) and “Playing Shadar-Kai” (Dragon 372, page 5). Those articles rightly described the initial training feats for weapon mastery as multiclass feats. They failed to make clear that those multiclass feats—Bola Training, Net Training, Spiked Chain Training, and Whip Training—are class-specific multiclass feats.

Thread Necromancy!

This build is currently non-functional since Windrise Ports no longer allows you to take two class-specific MC feats.  I do notice that this could be done a little more cleanly by using a Monk hybrid which will allow you to use any weapon you are proficient with as an implement, but then you have the problem of not being able to MC into a martial class and the Whip training.

So, any other bright ideas?
Found this out in the Net caster thread: You no longer need to be a martial character in order to take the Whip Training feat.  So, this build works without Windrise Ports after all!  Hooray!
I was wandering around looking for something interesting to do with a character and came across this.

For anyone like me who comes across this now, this no longer works as written here. The weapon used can no longer be a whip. You can still do it with a whip of Evil Undone if you want.

EDIT: Also Weapon of Oaths Fulfilled. But it seems like it would be a lot easier and give a lot more options to go with a monk for the hybrid.
You felt the need to necro a 3-year-old thread about something that doesn't work (anymore) to make a PSA about it not working....

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