Stormtroopers - Builds abusing Mark of Storm

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STORMTROOPERS
Mark of Storm Builds

IMAGE(http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6457/stormtroopercorpsanh108.jpg)
Don't judge the book by the cover, we're actually quite different on the inside!



Following a discussion about the Dragonmark Mark of Storm in this thread, I ended up doing a few builds (ab)using the feat. This thread is primarily dedicated to improving those and finding/collecting new/other ones.

The five builds presented here should be fully playable through all levels. They all pack quite a punch and (of course) have relatively much control. Their main problem is feat starvation (especially the Storm and Cool Stormtrooper builds).


IMAGE(http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/7633/stormtroopersliding.jpg)
Sliding is fun!

Shielding Stormtrooper



Based on a Shielding Swordmage wielding a Spiked Chain, this genasi build aims to pump its MBA and threatening reach for devastating OAs with lots of control. The genasi race has an extremely nifty paragon feat to use with MoS, namely "Shocking Flame" which effectively adds a bit of Lightning damage to all melee attacks and lets this trooper use a weapon other than Lightning. MoS also has great synnergy with the Promise of Storm racial power. The +3 weapon, a high Int and the Lyrandar Wind-Rider pp gives very accurate and damaging melee attacks. With Giant's Might in Epic for extra reach and attack bonuses in those hard encounters, this build is quite a DPR- machine compared to most Shielding SMs. Double Manifestation and Windsoul for extra mobility. Should be a solid defender addition to virtually any party.

Shielding Stormtrooper:
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======

Shielding Stormtrooper, level 30
Genasi, Swordmage, Lyrandar Wind-Rider, Chosen of Tempus
Build: Shielding Swordmage
Swordmage Aegis: Aegis of Shielding
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Constitution
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Intelligence
Quickened Spellcasting: Sword Burst
Background: Any

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 26, Dex 15, Int 28, Wis 13, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 16, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 8.


AC: 49 Fort: 44 Reflex: 43 Will: 36
HP: 215 Surges: 16 Surge Value: 53

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +33, Athletics +22, Endurance +30, History +33

FEATS
Level 1: Spiked Chain Training
Level 2: Melee Training (Intelligence)
Level 4: Focused Expertise (Spiked chain)
Level 6: Mark of Storm
Level 8: Spiked Chain Expert
Level 10: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 11: Double Aegis (retrained to Total Aegis at Level 21)
Level 12: Shocking Flame
Level 14: Greater Swordmage Warding
Level 16: Two-Weapon Defense
Level 18: Weapon Focus (Light Blade) (retrained to Double Manifestation at Level 22)
Level 20: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 21: Quickened Spellcasting
Level 22: Extra Manifestation
Level 24: White Lotus Riposte
Level 26: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 28: Elemental Echo
Level 30: Two-Weapon Threat

POWERS
Swordmage at-will 1: Sword Burst
Swordmage at-will 1: Frigid Blade
Swordmage encounter 1: Sword of Sigils
Swordmage daily 1: Lashing Asp (retrained to Dimensional Thunder at Level 8)
Swordmage utility 2: Eldritch Speed
Swordmage encounter 3: Dimensional Vortex
Swordmage daily 5: Swordmage Shielding Fire
Swordmage utility 6: Swordmage's Decree
Swordmage encounter 7: Thunderclap Strike
Swordmage daily 9: Glamor Blade
Swordmage utility 10: Unerring Vision
Swordmage encounter 13: Seed of Fire (replaces Sword of Sigils)
Swordmage daily 15: Reaper's Challenge (replaces Dimensional Thunder)
Swordmage utility 16: Aegis of Lost Souls
Swordmage encounter 17: Snake Strike (replaces Dimensional Vortex)
Swordmage daily 19: Planar Shock (replaces Swordmage Shielding Fire)
Swordmage utility 22: Giant's Might
Swordmage encounter 23: Thunder Riposte (replaces Thunderclap Strike)
Swordmage daily 25: Sword Duel (replaces Glamor Blade)
Swordmage encounter 27: Circle of Devastation (replaces Seed of Fire)
Swordmage daily 29: Mirrorblade Army (replaces Reaper's Challenge)

ITEMS
Feytouched Starleather Armor +6, Bloodclaw Spiked chain +6, Opal Ring of Remembrance (epic tier), Shadow Band (epic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Boots of Teleportation (epic tier), Gauntlets of Destruction (paragon tier), Coif of Mindiron (epic tier), Periapt of Cascading Health +6, Belt of Vim (epic tier),
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Note: If you're wondering how/if Shocking Flame works in conjunction with Mark of Storm, please read the discussion that starts on post no 15 here. The discussion has so far not been able to come to a certain conclusion regarding the legality of the combo (although the RAW very much implies it).


IMAGE(http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/1203/stormtrooperwc.jpg)
Aww crap! Never enough DUMP stats...



Storm Stormtrooper


Basically a rather typical Stormwarden build, this genasi Ranger ends up with the Eternal Defender ED in order to dual wield glaives to great effect in epic. This trooper also MCs to both Fighter (for feats) and Swordmage (for Giant's Might) to become a truly epic reaching striker monster. Just as the Shielding Stormtrooper, it uses Shocking Flame to add the Lightning keyword to attacks.

Storm Stormtrooper:
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======

Storm Stormtrooper, level 30
Genasi, Ranger, Stormwarden, Eternal Defender
Build: Two-Blade Ranger
Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style
Background: Windrise Ports

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 28, Con 13, Dex 24, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.


AC: 45 Fort: 45 Reflex: 39 Will: 35
HP: 185 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 46

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +24, Perception +22, Athletics +28, Stealth +26, Acrobatics +26, Endurance +22, Arcana +22

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword) (retrained to Polearm Gamble at Level 24)
Level 4: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 6: Battle Awareness
Level 8: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 10: Mark of Storm
Level 11: Shocking Flame
Level 12: Prime Punisher
Level 14: Called Shot
Level 16: Heavy Blade Opportunity
Level 18: Two-Weapon Opening
Level 20: Blade Initiate
Level 21: Heavy Blade Mastery
Level 22: Acolyte Power
Level 24: Polearm Momentum
Level 26: Rending Tempest
Level 28: Prime Quarry
Level 30: Lethal Hunter

POWERS
Ranger at-will 1: Hit and Run
Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Ranger encounter 1: Off-Hand Strike
Ranger daily 1: Jaws of the Wolf
Ranger utility 2: Hunter's Privilege
Ranger encounter 3: Ruffling Sting
Ranger daily 5: Frenzied Skirmish
Ranger utility 6: Weave Through the Fray
Ranger encounter 7: Claws of the Griffon
Ranger daily 9: Attacks on the Run
Ranger utility 10: Shed the Mark
Ranger encounter 13: Off-Hand Diversion (replaces Off-Hand Strike)
Ranger daily 15: Blade Cascade (replaces Jaws of the Wolf)
Ranger utility 16: Evade the Blow
Ranger encounter 17: Untamed Outburst (replaces Ruffling Sting)
Ranger daily 19: Cruel Cage of Steel (replaces Frenzied Skirmish)
Ranger utility 22: Safe Stride (retrained to Giant's Might at Acolyte Power)
Ranger encounter 23: Nonchalant Collapse (replaces Claws of the Griffon)
Ranger encounter 27: Death Rend (replaces Off-Hand Diversion)
Ranger daily 29: Follow-up Blow (replaces Attacks on the Run)

ITEMS
Trollskin Elderhide Armor +6, Bloodclaw Glaive +6, Bloodiron Glaive +6, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Shadow Band (epic tier), War Ring (paragon tier), Belt of Vim (epic tier), Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Gauntlets of Destruction (paragon tier), Eye of Awareness (epic tier), Torc of Power Preservation +6
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======




IMAGE(http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2284/sadstormtrooper.jpg)
All those Bursts and Blasts need careful placement, or you may accidentally wind up alone without allies...



Cool Stormtrooper


This trooper is a dragonborn Sorcerer, specialized in getting as much as possible out of Wintertouched/Lasting Frost, Polearm Momentum, Draconic Arrogance and MoS. It is able to use MoS on nearly all attacks thanks to the Sorcerer's good selection of Thunder powers and Gloves of Eldritch Admixture. Spams Dragonfrost to great effect and slides or pushes and prones with virtually every attack, getting up to +14 additional damage bonus. A true AoE striker. (I think I was inspired by Ytterbium Dragon's really cool Dragonfrost spamming Sorc|Fighter, so thanks again for a great build!)

Cool Stormtrooper:


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======

Cool Stormtrooper, level 30
Dragonborn, Sorcerer, Kensei, Demigod
Build: Dragon Sorcerer
Spell Source: Dragon Magic
Dragon Soul: Dragon Soul Fire
Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (heavy blade group)
Student of the Sword: Student of Two-Handed Weapons
Kensei Focus: Kensei Focus Glaive
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Charisma
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Strength
Gritty Sergeant: Weapon Proficiency (Glaive)
Quickened Spellcasting: Dragonfrost
Background: Gritty Sergeant

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 24, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 28.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 16.


AC: 44 Fort: 38 Reflex: 37 Will: 43
HP: 169 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 43

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +23, Bluff +29, Athletics +27, Diplomacy +29, Intimidate +31

FEATS
Level 1: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 2: Reaper's Touch
Level 4: Arcane Implement Proficiency
Level 6: Focused Expertise (Glaive)
Level 8: Mark of Storm
Level 10: Student of the Sword
Level 11: Lasting Frost
Level 12: Wintertouched
Level 14: Polearm Momentum
Level 16: Draconic Arrogance
Level 18: Draconic Spellcaster
Level 20: Draconic Spellfury
Level 21: Quickened Spellcasting
Level 22: Polearm Gamble
Level 24: Arcane Familiar (Disembodied Hand/Rakshasa Claw for drawing/stowing Staff of Ruin as Free Action)
Level 26: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 28: Arcane Reach
Level 30: Deva Heritage

POWERS
Sorcerer at-will 1: Burning Spray
Sorcerer at-will 1: Dragonfrost
Sorcerer encounter 1: Bedeviling Burst
Sorcerer daily 1: Lightning Breath
Sorcerer utility 2: Elemental Shift
Sorcerer encounter 3: Ice Dragon's Teeth
Sorcerer daily 5: Thunder Leap
Sorcerer utility 6: Sudden Scales
Sorcerer encounter 7: Rimestorm
Sorcerer daily 9: Adamantine Echo
Sorcerer utility 10: Narrow Escape
Sorcerer encounter 13: Thunder Breath (replaces Bedeviling Burst)
Sorcerer daily 15: Lightning Daggers (replaces Lightning Breath)
Sorcerer utility 16: Draconic Majesty
Sorcerer encounter 17: Azure Talons (replaces Ice Dragon's Teeth)
Sorcerer daily 19: Prismatic Lightning (replaces Thunder Leap)
Sorcerer utility 22: Platinum Scales
Sorcerer encounter 23: Thunder Summons (replaces Rimestorm)
Sorcerer daily 25: Draconic Incarnation (replaces Adamantine Echo)
Sorcerer encounter 27: Thunder Pulse (replaces Thunder Breath)
Sorcerer daily 29: Wyrm Form (replaces Prismatic Lightning)

ITEMS
Bloodclaw Glaive +6, Siberys Shard of the Mage (epic tier), Staff of Ruin +6, Displacer Starleather Armor +6, Boots of Quickness (epic tier), Gloves of Eldritch Admixture (epic tier), Circlet of Mental Onslaught (paragon tier), Cloak of Displacement +6, Counterstrike Guards (paragon tier), Shadow Band (epic tier), Ring of Ramming (paragon tier), Belt of Mountain Endurance (paragon tier), Frozen Whetstone (heroic tier) (10), Rakshasa Claw Familiar
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======




IMAGE(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8200/emperorlightning.jpg)
Being a bit of a Wizard can give you new interesting ways to abuse thunder 'n' lightning and help you climb the ranks...

Thundering Stormtrooper
original build by Isenhertz



This hybrid stormsoul genasi trooper spams Thunderwave or a thundering Swordburst, augmented by the Academy Master pp and several feats. It also deals serious damage, especially with the Wizard powers thanks to the Elemental Empowerment and Dual Implement feats. As a mobile and very competent striker/controller with a minor in defense and the perfect thunder or lightning power for virtually any situation, this versatile trooper is highly adaptable to party/encounter/campaign needs and very fun to play.

Thundering Stormtrooper:


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Thundering Stormtrooper, level 30
Genasi, Swordmage|Wizard, Academy Master, Champion of Prophecy
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Assault
Prophetic Blessing: Prophetic Blessing Strength
Prophetic Blessing: Prophetic Blessing Intelligence
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Arcane Admixture II: Arcane Admixture Thunder II
Arcane Admixture Power: Sword Burst
Arcane Admixture II: Legion's Hold
Quickened Spellcasting: Sword Burst or Thunderwave

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 26, Con 12, Dex 15, Int 28, Wis 15, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 10.


AC: 45 Fort: 42 Reflex: 42 Will: 43
HP: 169 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 42

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +24, Athletics +28, Arcana +35

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +17, Endurance +18, Heal +17, History +28, Insight +17, Intimidate +16, Perception +17, Religion +28, Stealth +17, Streetwise +16, Thievery +17

FEATS
Level 1: Intelligent Blademaster
Level 2: Focused Expertise (Quarterstaff)
Level 4: Elemental Empowerment
Level 6: Mark of Storm
Level 8: Elemental Assault (retrained to Shocking Flame at Level 22)
Level 10: Elemental Echo
Level 11: Double Aegis (retrained to Total Aegis at Level 21)
Level 12: Arcane Admixture
Level 14: Staff Fighting
Level 16: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 18: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 20: Resounding Thunder
Level 21: Wizard Implement Expertise
Level 22: Quickened Spellcasting
Level 24: Robust Defenses
Level 26: Epic Will
Level 28: Weapon Focus (Staff)
Level 30: Arcane Admixture II

POWERS
Hybrid Swordmage at-will 1: Sword Burst
Hybrid Wizard at-will 1: Thunderwave
Hybrid encounter 1: Lightning Clash
Hybrid daily 1: Dimensional Thunder
Hybrid utility 2: Shield
Hybrid encounter 3: Shock Sphere (retrained to Blastback Swipe at Level 13)
Hybrid daily 5: Fireball
Hybrid utility 6: Fate-Spurned Foe
Hybrid encounter 7: Lightning Bolt
Hybrid daily 9: Blade Bolt
Hybrid utility 10: Blur
Hybrid encounter 13: Thunderlance (replaces Lightning Clash)
Hybrid daily 15: Ball Lightning (replaces Dimensional Thunder)
Hybrid utility 16: Borrowed Confidence
Hybrid encounter 17: Thundering Vortex (replaces Blastback Swipe)
Hybrid daily 19: Lightning Rod (replaces Fireball)
Hybrid utility 22: Oni's Gift
Hybrid encounter 23: Chain Lightning (replaces Lightning Bolt)
Hybrid daily 25: Bounding Lightning (replaces Blade Bolt)
Hybrid encounter 27: Maelstrom Blade (replaces Thundering Vortex)
Hybrid daily 29: Legion's Hold (replaces Lightning Rod)

ITEMS
Staff of Ruin +6, Siberys Shard of the Mage (epic tier), Antipathy Gloves (heroic tier), Eye of Awareness (epic tier), Torc of Power Preservation +6, Opal Ring of Remembrance (epic tier), War Ring (paragon tier), Belt of Mountain Endurance (paragon tier), Sandals of Avandra (epic tier), Displacer Starleather Armor +6, Trollhide Bracers (epic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======




IMAGE(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1259/stormtrooperrocks.jpg)
Sliding and proning your enemies truly rocks for a defender trooper, just remember to wield the right weapon...

Guardian Stormtrooper



A true master of defense, this stormsoul genasi trooper uses the Sigil Carver's Punishing Sigil to great effect. Any enemy that hits an ally of this trooper can expect to be hit by a MBA that both slides and prones them, leaving them in the worst position and open for further punishment. Through especially Polearm Momentum, Polearm Gamble and movement and reach powers, this Shielding Swordmage is a very mobile and durable defender that can control a large battlefield area, demanding a hefty resource tax from any enemy who whishes to attack an ally or the trooper itself.

Credits to billyh for the idea!

Guardian Stormtrooper:


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Guardian Stormtrooper, level 30
Genasi, Swordmage, Sigil Carver, Demigod
Build: Shielding Swordmage
Swordmage Aegis: Aegis of Shielding
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Intelligence
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Constitution
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Quickened Spellcasting: Sword Burst
Arcane Admixture Power: Sword Burst
Background: Any

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 22, Dex 16, Int 28, Wis 16, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 8.


AC: 49 Fort: 43 Reflex: 42 Will: 42
HP: 226 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 56

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +33, Athletics +23, History +33, Endurance +28

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +18, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Dungeoneering +18, Heal +18, Insight +18, Intimidate +15, Nature +20, Perception +18, Stealth +18, Streetwise +15, Thievery +18

FEATS
Level 1: Intelligent Blademaster
Level 2: Focused Expertise (Longsword) (retrained to Focused Expertise (Glaive) at Level 13)
Level 4: Improved Swordmage Warding (retrained to Greater Swordmage Warding at Level 12)
Level 6: Mark of Storm
Level 8: Elemental Echo (retrained to Battle Awareness at Level 14)
Level 10: White Lotus Riposte (retrained to Arcane Admixture at Level 11)
Level 11: Double Aegis (retrained to Total Aegis at Level 21)
Level 12: Shocking Flame
Level 14: Polearm Momentum
Level 16: Polearm Gamble
Level 18: Greater Aegis of Shielding
Level 20: Arcane Reach
Level 21: Quickened Spellcasting
Level 22: Elemental Echo
Level 24: Resounding Thunder
Level 26: White Lotus Riposte
Level 28: Epic Will
Level 30: Toughness

POWERS
Swordmage at-will 1: Sword Burst
Swordmage at-will 1: Frigid Blade
Swordmage encounter 1: Sword of Sigils
Swordmage daily 1: Dimensional Thunder
Swordmage utility 2: Eldritch Speed
Swordmage encounter 3: Dimensional Vortex
Swordmage daily 5: Swordmage Shielding Fire
Swordmage utility 6: Swordmage's Decree (retrained to Silversteel Veil at Level 16)
Swordmage encounter 7: Thunderclap Strike
Swordmage daily 9: Glamor Blade
Swordmage utility 10: Armathor's Step
Swordmage encounter 13: Seed of Fire (replaces Sword of Sigils)
Swordmage daily 15: Hunter's Pursuit (replaces Dimensional Thunder)
Swordmage utility 16: Aegis of Lost Souls
Swordmage encounter 17: Thundering Vortex (replaces Dimensional Vortex)
Swordmage daily 19: Planar Shock (replaces Swordmage Shielding Fire)
Swordmage utility 22: Giant's Might
Swordmage encounter 23: Thunder Riposte (replaces Thunderclap Strike)
Swordmage daily 25: Quicksilver Blade (replaces Glamor Blade)
Swordmage encounter 27: Circle of Devastation (replaces Seed of Fire)
Swordmage daily 29: Mirrorblade Army (replaces Hunter's Pursuit)

ITEMS
Displacer Starleather Armor +6, Bloodclaw Glaive +6, Siberys Shard of the Mage (epic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Gauntlets of the Ram (heroic tier), Periapt of Cascading Health +6, Shadow Band (epic tier), Opal Ring of Remembrance (epic tier), Belt of Vim (epic tier), Sandals of Avandra (epic tier), Coif of Mindiron (epic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======




Feedback, improvement suggestions and more MoS builds greatly appreciated!

/upho

IMAGE(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4811/stormtrooperlego.jpg)
Now you can make your own Stormtrooper build!




Change Log:

July 13: Added a note about the MoS+SF combo and the current discussion about its legality.
July 14: Added the Thundering Stormtrooper based on Izenhertz's build and a few more pics
July 19: Changed a few powers in the Thundering Stormtrooper build due to hybrid rules (not shown in the CB), changed the feat Arcane Familiar to Staff Fighting, replaced the Iron Armbands of Power with Trollhide Bracers and removed the Quickening Staff.
July 19: Added the Guardian Stormtrooper.
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
It may not be exatly what you're looking for, but you can start playing the Fisherman at low levels with a Warden with Fighter MC, Polearm Momentum, Mark of Storms, a Lightning Spear/Polearm and Rushing Cleats or some other way of increasing your Slides (an off-hand Staggering weapon, maybe?).
It may not be exatly what you're looking for, but you can start playing the Fisherman at low levels with a Warden with Fighter MC, Polearm Momentum, Mark of Storms, a Lightning Spear/Polearm and Rushing Cleats or some other way of increasing your Slides (an off-hand Staggering weapon, maybe?).

The problem with this approach are the MAD feats - you need to prioritize Str and Dex for paragon and epic, while you have to start/boost your Wis to 15 in heroic for PM. It might be doable with another race, but that ties a Lightning weapon to your main hand (forever?). If you play a Half-Orc or Longtooth and plan on ending up similar to the Fisherman, I guess starting with MoS etc might be a good idea (retrain for better options in paragon).
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
I'll pimp my storm sorcerer build again:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1211731&highlight=eberron+archetypes+series

Perhaps not as intricate as your builds, but it's pretty much just adding MoS and wind-rider to a typical storm sorcerer. It also has the "advantage" of not putting a dragonmark on an FR race. ;)
Stormsoul Genasi Assault Swordmage|Wizard. It has so much going for it: Elemental Empowerment + Elemental Echoes + Mark of Storm + Thunderwave/Admixed Swordburst + Resounding Thunder + White Lotus Riposte = Awesome.
It also has the "advantage" of not putting a dragonmark on an FR race. ;)

Genasi are in Eberron. I distinctly recall a section where it was stated that they didn't even know what they are. But they are in there.

http://community.wizards.com/play-by-post_haven The Play-by-Post recruitment hub for the forums. Stop by, join us, and sign up for some games while you are there

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71235715 wrote:
Genasi are in Eberron. I distinctly recall a section where it was stated that they didn't even know what they are. But they are in there.

Yep, they are AFAIK.
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
I'll pimp my storm sorcerer build again:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1211731&highlight=eberron+archetypes+series

Perhaps not as intricate as your builds, but it's pretty much just adding MoS and wind-rider to a typical storm sorcerer. It also has the "advantage" of not putting a dragonmark on an FR race. ;)

I like your build, it feels very much like an Eberron archetype (and thus it perhaps shouldn't be a genasi, even if there's a few of them existing in Eberron 4e IIRC).

And regarding my intricate builds, I've always liked having a bit of the unexpected and unusual in my builds, but looking at these it somewhat feels like I was just desperately trying to fit too much fun stuff into too few feat slots, refusing to acknowledge the futility of it all. So I'm not sure the builds are that much "better" because of it, just different, I guess... *sigh* Yes, these builds really did become intricate - a bit too intricate for my patience to tell you the truth...

*goes off to make a simple, straight-forward Sword 'n' Board Fighter using only the PHB*
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
1) Avenger using Overwhelming Strike at-will and a Lightning reach weapon.

Multi/hybrid fighter for Polearm Momentum. Mark of Storms and/or Rushing Cleats(AV) to make the slide at least 2 squares.

... I have all kinds of Glaive + HBO envy right now, but halberd could work as well to get the avenger staple High Crit with Deadly Axe if the build put resources into Str and the Fighter half.

Wis>Str>Dex

2) Eldritch Strike Conlock

Arcane Implement Proficiency [heavy blade, Lightning Glaive] Eldritch Stike + slide bumps and Polearm Momentum. This one is neat since it can Polearm Momentum at a distance with the right powers. Getting solid benefits from the Wind-Rider PP ain't bad either. I like this more each time I look into it.

Con>Str>Wis

3) Half-elf Bard -- if anyone can do it, a bard can do it better

Dilettante for slide or Lightning at-will. Grasping Shards with Combat Virtuoso and Lightning Keyword added seems pretty neat, even if it isn't knocking prone. Stat array to qualify for needed feats and keep Cha high is rough. This one seems it would have the most trouble keeping up Wis and Str for wanted feats, but with lots of Slides built into Bard powers, may be fun to play anyway.


Those pesky feat-requirement stats are rough on all of these builds. Tried to prioritize stats and keep them within one of the NAD-keyed pairs. May detail arrays and builds in a few days.


... and then there's always the Storm Sorcerors the feat thinks it was made for
Stormsoul Genasi Assault Swordmage|Wizard. It has so much going for it: Elemental Empowerment + Elemental Echoes + Mark of Storm + Thunderwave/Admixed Swordburst + Resounding Thunder + White Lotus Riposte = Awesome.

I like the sound of this! Please tell me you have already made a build? Or should I get back to the CB and battle those pesky feat slots again? ;)
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
1) Avenger using Overwhelming Strike at-will and a Lightning reach weapon.

2) Eldritch Strike Conlock

3) Half-elf Bard -- if anyone can do it, a bard can do it better

Those pesky feat-requirement stats are rough on all of these builds. Tried to prioritize stats and keep them within one of the NAD-keyed pairs. May detail arrays and builds in a few days.

Good ideas. I've been thinking quite a lot about an MoS + Eldritch Strike build myself, but as a hybrid Shielding SM (as the synnergies are great and the "reversed" defender tactics can get some great support from Lock powers). And please do post those builds!


... and then there's always the Storm Sorcerors the feat thinks it was made for

Heh, yepp! Well, guess I leave it to you to stat out a prime example of that one as well! ;)
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
I think you should think about why sliding is strong, and that can guide your builds. In heroic. Slide + Polearm Momentum is really strong, but I think fighter|warlocks do it better. In paragon, just about everything has reach, or teleports, or can otherwise deal with being prone. I think the Sigil Carver PP's 16th level ability is ridiculous with a melee basic attck thatslides, and you can pick up Magic Missile through hybrid or versatile master. In this case you don't need Polearm Momentum

Are there other PPs that can do something ridiculous with a slide?

Scorpion Knight: High Armor, High Damage in Heroic Safe Haven: Stay near me and never get hit Eldritch Avenger: Crit Fishing at level 12, LFR friendly

The problem with this approach are the MAD feats - you need to prioritize Str and Dex for paragon and epic, while you have to start/boost your Wis to 15 in heroic for PM. It might be doable with another race, but that ties a Lightning weapon to your main hand (forever?). If you play a Half-Orc or Longtooth and plan on ending up similar to the Fisherman, I guess starting with MoS etc might be a good idea (retrain for better options in paragon).

Yes, it's pretty much only doable with a +Str/+(Wis or Dex) race. And I'm quite sure there was a way in Paragon to get rid of the Lightning weapon and still work, but I can't seem to remember how it was.

Edit: Quick snapshot at level 4, assuming an off-hand Staggering weapon works:
Warden Magnet

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Warden Magnet, level 4
Longtooth Shifter, Warden
Build: Wild Warden
Guardian Might: Wildblood
Student of the Sword: Student of One-Handed Weapons
Background: Auspicious Birth

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 10, Dex 15, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 17, Con 10, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10.


AC: 19 Fort: 19 Reflex: 15 Will: 17
HP: 58 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 14

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +10, Athletics +13, Heal +10, Perception +10, Endurance +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Arcana +1, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +5, History +1, Insight +5, Intimidate +2, Religion +1, Stealth +3, Streetwise +2, Thievery +3

FEATS
Level 1: Student of the Sword
Level 2: Mark of Storm
Level 4: Polearm Momentum

POWERS
Warden at-will 1: Weight of Earth
Warden at-will 1: Thorn Strike
Warden encounter 1: Wildblood Frenzy
Warden daily 1: Form of Winter's Herald
Warden utility 2: Eyes of the Hawk
Warden encounter 3: Burst of Earth's Fury

ITEMS
Lightning Trident +1, Staggering Throwing hammer +1, Cloak of the Walking Wounded +1, Hide Armor of Cleansing +1
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
I like the sound of this! Please tell me you have already made a build? Or should I get back to the CB and battle those pesky feat slots again? ;)

Of course I do. ;) Here you go. Feel free to fiddle with the feat order, I just threw this together quicklike.

Genasi SMG|WIZ

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Ngara-Cai, level 30
Genasi, Swordmage|Wizard, Academy Master, Champion of Prophecy
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Assault
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Prophetic Blessing: Prophetic Blessing Strength
Prophetic Blessing: Prophetic Blessing Intelligence
Arcane Admixture II: Arcane Admixture Thunder II
Arcane Admixture Power: Sword Burst
Arcane Admixture II: Legion's Hold

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 26, Con 12, Dex 15, Int 28, Wis 15, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 10.


AC: 44 Fort: 42 Reflex: 42 Will: 43
HP: 169 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 42

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +24, Athletics +28, Arcana +35

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +17, Endurance +18, Heal +17, History +28, Insight +17, Intimidate +16, Perception +17, Religion +28, Stealth +17, Streetwise +16, Thievery +17

FEATS
Level 1: Elemental Echo
Level 2: Elemental Empowerment
Level 4: Elemental Assault
Level 6: Intelligent Blademaster
Level 8: Echoes of Thunder
Level 10: Mark of Storm
Level 11: Resounding Thunder
Level 12: Arcane Admixture
Level 14: Destructive Wizardry
Level 16: Focused Expertise (Quarterstaff)
Level 18: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 20: Double Aegis (retrained to Total Aegis at Level 21)
Level 21: Extended Aegis
Level 22: Wizard Implement Expertise
Level 24: Robust Defenses
Level 26: Epic Will
Level 28: Weapon Focus (Staff)
Level 30: Arcane Admixture II

POWERS
Hybrid Swordmage at-will 1: Sword Burst
Hybrid Wizard at-will 1: Thunderwave
Hybrid encounter 1: Lightning Clash
Hybrid daily 1: Dimensional Thunder
Hybrid utility 2: Shield
Hybrid encounter 3: Shock Sphere
Hybrid daily 5: Fireball
Hybrid utility 6: Fate-Spurned Foe
Hybrid encounter 7: Lightning Bolt
Hybrid daily 9: Blade Bolt
Hybrid utility 10: Blur
Hybrid encounter 13: Thunderlance (replaces Lightning Clash)
Hybrid daily 15: Ball Lightning (replaces Dimensional Thunder)
Hybrid utility 16: Borrowed Confidence
Hybrid encounter 17: Swordshock (replaces Shock Sphere)
Hybrid daily 19: Lightning Rod (replaces Fireball)
Hybrid utility 22: Oni's Gift
Hybrid encounter 23: Chain Lightning (replaces Thunderlance)
Hybrid daily 25: Bounding Lightning (replaces Blade Bolt)
Hybrid encounter 27: Dimensional Charge (replaces Swordshock)
Hybrid daily 29: Legion's Hold (replaces Lightning Rod)

ITEMS
Staff of Ruin +6, Siberys Shard of the Mage (epic tier), Displacer Starleather Armor +6, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Antipathy Gloves (heroic tier), Eye of Awareness (epic tier), Torc of Power Preservation +6, Opal Ring of Remembrance (epic tier), War Ring (paragon tier), Belt of Mountain Endurance (paragon tier), Sandals of Avandra (epic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======



Nova turn runs as follows:

Minor: Promise of Storm: Thunder or Lightning power deal +3d8 damage until the end of the next turn. Triggers Elemental Echoes: All Arcane powers get +1 to attack and +6 to damage until the end of the next turn.
Minor: Quickened Thunderwave, +36 vs FORT, a Close Blast 4 dealing 2d6+37 +3d8+6 damage and triggering Echoes of Thunder for another +3 to damage until the end of the next turn. If you hit two or more enemies, add another +4 to the damage from Destructive Wizardry.
Standard: Master's Surge (Chain Lightning), +36 vs REF, dealing 6d6+32 +3d8+6 +3 damage to the first target, 4d6+32 +3d8+6 +3 to two secondary targets, and 3d6+32 +3d8+6 +3 to all other enemies within a range of 20. If you hit two or more enemies, add another +4 to the damage from Destructive Wizardry.
Action Point: Legion's Hold (Arcane Admixture: Thunder), +36 vs WILL, dealing 2d10+32 +3d8+6 +3 damage to all enemies within a range of 20 and stunning them (save ends). If you hit two or more enemies, add another +4 to the damage from Destructive Wizardry.

If anything is still standing after that, continue the Nova the second round with another Thunderwave, Chain Lightning (not expended by Master's Surge), Lightning Bolt, or Ball Lightning.

Besides that, an Swordburst with added Thunder keywords means you have a Burst 2 at-will that Slides all enemies caught up in it one due to the Mark. If you slot White Lotus Master Riposte into the build, you can repeat the attack (not the whole at-will burst though) for another slide if any enemy previously hit decides to attack you.
So I have a question about the Genasi builds.

You mention that past level 11, a lightning weapon is no longer needed due to Shocking Flame. How does this interaction work?

If you add a bit of elemental damage to an attack, like for example lightning, does that make it a "lightning attack" and thus trigger MoS? And if so, could some quote be provided?

I'd really like to see how this works, since it's something I'm considering playing.
So I have a question about the Genasi builds.

You mention that past level 11, a lightning weapon is no longer needed due to Shocking Flame. How does this interaction work?

If you add a bit of elemental damage to an attack, like for example lightning, does that make it a "lightning attack" and thus trigger MoS? And if so, could some quote be provided?

I'd really like to see how this works, since it's something I'm considering playing.

Sure thing. From FRPG (p 139):

Shocking Flame [Genasi]
Prerequisite: Genasi
Benefit: When manifesting firesoul or stormsoul,
your melee attacks deal an extra 2 fire damage or an
extra 2 lightning damage, respectively.
At 21st level, the extra damage increases to 4.

It's a paragon tier feat, thus you can get it at lvl 11 and use any weapon you like, as Shocking Flame will add the lightning Keyword to any melee attack, meaning such attacks will now include:

Type of power * Original Keywords, Lightning
Type of action, melee
Hit: original damage, +2 lightning damage. At 21st level, the extra damage increases to +4 lightning damage

In my rather quick search of in the PHB, I couldn't find a quote that explicitly says that adding damage with a certain keyword to a power also adds the keyword, but it's kinda self-explanatory because it would otherwise be impossible to add typed damage to a power.

And Mark of Storm says (from the CB, I don't have EPG yet):

Whenever you hit an enemy with a thunder or
lightning power, you can slide that enemy 1
square.

"lightning power" = power with the lightning keyword (what else can it possibly be?).

Did this answer your question?
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
Mark of storms + storm pillar = infinate damage?
Mark of storms + storm cage = inescapable?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Funny thought, that. But I don't think Storm Pillar even triggers the Mark, seeing how there's no attack roll, and thus no "hit".
Mark of storms + storm pillar = infinate damage?
Mark of storms + storm cage = inescapable?



A picture just popped up in my mind: a group of very tired and very annoyed monsters with their hairs on end, twitchingly sliding back and forth, unwillingly getting different bodyparts slid into a pillar of thunder and lightning making them slide again in a kinda weird disco dance accompanied by FX lights and buzzing, crackling and zapping electric noises...

But (fortunately? unfortunately?) Isenhertz is correct. There's no attack roll and therefore no hit.
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
Funny thought, that. But I don't think Storm Pillar even triggers the Mark, seeing how there's no attack roll, and thus no "hit".

Does storm cage still do extra damage? (by makeing them enter the zone?)

Edit: or a cold lightning cloud of daggers with wintertouch/lasting frost, +1 slide? 1d6 + int + wis +5 cold + wis + 5 cold
Nevermind, you can only admixture once.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Something like this would make a good solid striker:

Revenant Dragonborn Vestige Pact Warlock/Lyrandar Windrider/Demigod

Str =
Dex =
Con = high
Int = high
Wis =
Cha =

Breath Type = Lightning, relevant stat = Con

Feats needed = Draconic Spellcasting (Lightning), Energy Admixture (Lightning), Implement Mastery

It's still under construction, but it gets about the highest to-hit you can get with a non-avenger, and it lets you use Con for just about everything (to-hit, damage, and extra damage) with good Int for rider effects.
Upho,

Unless you expicitly add the keyword to a power, I see no rules support for the notion that adding a damage type to a power also adds a corresponding keyword. You can have a melee attack that does some (or even all) lightning damage without it being a "Lightning" keyword power.

If you have text to the contrary, I'd love to see it. It would mean taking the PP Malec-Keth Jannisary (spelling) allows you to add a keyword to ALL you powers at 16th level.
In my rather quick search of in the PHB, I couldn't find a quote that explicitly says that adding damage with a certain keyword to a power also adds the keyword

That's because there is no such rule. There is in fact a difference between doing lightning damage, and having the lightning keyword. The reason stuff like Lightning Weapons work is because they have an at-will free action power that has the needed keyword, allowing you to add the keywords of that power onto your attack power.
That's because there is no such rule. There is in fact a difference between doing lightning damage, and having the lightning keyword. The reason stuff like Lightning Weapons work is because they have an at-will free action power that has the needed keyword, allowing you to add the keywords of that power onto your attack power.

Yeah. That's the same reason Gloves of Eldritch Admixture (yes, they're totally broken, move right along) can add keywords and not just typed damage.
See, that's what I thought - adding a certain damage type does not actually confer the keyword. The thing is, in this case it may not matter.

Mark of Storms triggers off of hitting with "a thunder or lightning power," not "a power with the thunder or lightning keywords." So the issue here is what actually constitutes something being a lightning power.

Either way though, upho's Shielding Stormtrooper looks like a good build even if forced to use a lightning weapon. Con mod to damage really seems like it'd do a good job of bringing a swordmage's DPR up to somewhat respectable.
Mark of Storms triggers off of hitting with "a thunder or lightning power," not "a power with the thunder or lightning keywords."

Oh, come on. Those two are obviously the same thing. What else would it mean?
Oh, come on. Those two are obviously the same thing. What else would it mean?

It could mean a power that deals thunder or lightning damage without actually having those specific keywords, in a way not unlike that upho has provided.

I agree with you 100% that it probably means keyword RAI, but a bit of official clarification would be nice. I may take this over to the errata board, just to see.

EDIT: Thread's up in the Eberron Errata board if any of you want to contribute.
1) Avenger using Overwhelming Strike at-will and a Lightning reach weapon.

As long as you realize your oath will hardly ever work.
That's because there is no such rule. There is in fact a difference between doing lightning damage, and having the lightning keyword. The reason stuff like Lightning Weapons work is because they have an at-will free action power that has the needed keyword, allowing you to add the keywords of that power onto your attack power.

Ooops! That's what you get from making assumptions without checking! :embarrass

Hmm... Seems I'm gonna have to rearrange my builds a bit. *sigh*
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
As long as you realize your oath will hardly ever work.

It's a strange interaction, but nothing in the rules as I've read them prevents you from benefiting from your Oath as well with an adjacent attack instead and making them 2-step into the space you left. Reach is the obvious application of the additional slide, but can be thought of as an added perk, at cost of OoE bonus. Even if disallowed by a stodgy DM, the benefit of making the Overwhelming Strike reach and proning your target is still worth the cost of a feat and losing the Oath reroll on the attack.
Upho,

Unless you expicitly add the keyword to a power, I see no rules support for the notion that adding a damage type to a power also adds a corresponding keyword. You can have a melee attack that does some (or even all) lightning damage without it being a "Lightning" keyword power.

If you have text to the contrary, I'd love to see it. It would mean taking the PP Malec-Keth Jannisary (spelling) allows you to add a keyword to ALL you powers at 16th level.

Yes in fact I do now! From PHB2 (p 218, emphasis by me):
Keywords: The power’s keywords appear next. The
keywords tell you the power source, any damage types
associated with the power
, accessories you can use
with it, and other associated effects.

I definitely think the lightning damage bonus of Shocking Flame is a "damage type associated with" melee powers (from FRPG, p 139, emphasis by me):
Benefit: When manifesting firesoul or stormsoul,
your melee attacks deal an extra 2 fire damage or an
extra 2 lightning damage, respectively.
At 21st level, the extra damage increases to 4.

I think it's working!

You really got me scared there for a while, Ordrek and Freylorn! I was not looking forward to reworking those builds again just because I'd made a stupid error in my reading of the rules...

And you can build an awesome Malec-Keth Janissary, Ordrek! :P
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
Upho,

I think that text provides a very strong argument, though I could see rational minds disagreeing. There was always a chicken/egg argument that having one didn't necessarrily produce the other, but this text seems to indicate that damage of a type alone is enough to produce the keyword (though I still wouldn't call it 100% clear). I'm going to use your interpretation for now in my games even if it does provide some significant power creep for some builds. I really hated being chained to a lightning weapon in order to use Mark of Storm.

If WotC clears this up to the contrary, it's back to the Lightning Weapon.

Until then, I need to find some means of doing lightning damage with my fey charger fighter build=)

EDIT- I also found this on p.55 of the PHB1:
"The other keywords define the fundamental effects of a power. For instance, a power that deals acid damage is an acid effect and thus has the acid keyword. A power that has the poison keyword might deal poison damage,
or it might slow the target, immobilize the target, or stun the target. But the poison keyword indicates that
it’s a poison effect, and other rules in the game relate to that fact in different ways. Dwarves have a bonus to saving throws against poison effects, for example."
The issue here, upho, is the old "All apples are fruits, but not all fruits are apples" thing.

All elemental keywords specify damage types. It's not stated, however, that all damage types specify keywords, and it may not be wise to interpret it as such without official word.

Really hoping it works though, because your builds look fun!
The issue here, upho, is the old "All apples are fruits, but not all fruits are apples" thing.

All elemental keywords specify damage types. It's not stated, however, that all damage types specify keywords, and it may not be wise to interpret it as such without official word.

Really hoping it works though, because your builds look fun!

A way to demonstrate this would be to find a power that does a type of damage without having that keyword. I don't have time to look for this, but if someone knows of one it would go a long way toward putting this to rest.

I think the argument most people use to dismantle Upho's interpretation is that some effects add damage types and specifically say to add a keyword or specifically have a keyword associated with them while others just add a damage type without mention of keyword. Thus the assumption is that adding a damage type does not necessarrily add the keyword. This line of reasoning may be erroneous because the real issue may just be that WotC is inconsistant in wording effects. The general rule may just be Upho's interpretation rather than the one that requires explicit addition of keywords.

On one hand, requiring explicit addition of keywords doesn't make sense logically because it creates a situation where a power does a kind of damage but isn't considered that kind of power. But on the other it makes some balance sense to make it more difficult to add keyword to prevent unintended combinations... like Mark of Storm sliding and proning everything with every power you use=)
It's exactly as you say, Ordrek - there are ways (as proven in this thread) to add elemental damage without specifically adding keyword. And as there is no overall rule to govern this, although there's nothing against it, people may need concrete proof it does work in order to use it in their games.

That's why I'm trying to get a flat-out ruling, to be honest - it's something I'm interested in using in a game, and I want to make 100% sure it's rules legal before I do. My wife (who will be DMing) would probably rule it in my favor regardless, but I have a thing against house-ruling things on my characters for some reason.
Do you really think that my MBA gains the frost keyword when it crits and I dont use the power on my frost weapon?
Of course I do. ;) Here you go. Feel free to fiddle with the feat order, I just threw this together quicklike.

Genasi SMG|WIZ

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Ngara-Cai, level 30
Genasi, Swordmage|Wizard, Academy Master, Champion of Prophecy
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Assault
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Prophetic Blessing: Prophetic Blessing Strength
Prophetic Blessing: Prophetic Blessing Intelligence
Arcane Admixture II: Arcane Admixture Thunder II
Arcane Admixture Power: Sword Burst
Arcane Admixture II: Legion's Hold

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 26, Con 12, Dex 15, Int 28, Wis 15, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 10.


AC: 44 Fort: 42 Reflex: 42 Will: 43
HP: 169 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 42

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +24, Athletics +28, Arcana +35

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +17, Endurance +18, Heal +17, History +28, Insight +17, Intimidate +16, Perception +17, Religion +28, Stealth +17, Streetwise +16, Thievery +17

FEATS
Level 1: Elemental Echo
Level 2: Elemental Empowerment
Level 4: Elemental Assault
Level 6: Intelligent Blademaster
Level 8: Echoes of Thunder
Level 10: Mark of Storm
Level 11: Resounding Thunder
Level 12: Arcane Admixture
Level 14: Destructive Wizardry
Level 16: Focused Expertise (Quarterstaff)
Level 18: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 20: Double Aegis (retrained to Total Aegis at Level 21)
Level 21: Extended Aegis
Level 22: Wizard Implement Expertise
Level 24: Robust Defenses
Level 26: Epic Will
Level 28: Weapon Focus (Staff)
Level 30: Arcane Admixture II

POWERS
Hybrid Swordmage at-will 1: Sword Burst
Hybrid Wizard at-will 1: Thunderwave
Hybrid encounter 1: Lightning Clash
Hybrid daily 1: Dimensional Thunder
Hybrid utility 2: Shield
Hybrid encounter 3: Shock Sphere
Hybrid daily 5: Fireball
Hybrid utility 6: Fate-Spurned Foe
Hybrid encounter 7: Lightning Bolt
Hybrid daily 9: Blade Bolt
Hybrid utility 10: Blur
Hybrid encounter 13: Thunderlance (replaces Lightning Clash)
Hybrid daily 15: Ball Lightning (replaces Dimensional Thunder)
Hybrid utility 16: Borrowed Confidence
Hybrid encounter 17: Swordshock (replaces Shock Sphere)
Hybrid daily 19: Lightning Rod (replaces Fireball)
Hybrid utility 22: Oni's Gift
Hybrid encounter 23: Chain Lightning (replaces Thunderlance)
Hybrid daily 25: Bounding Lightning (replaces Blade Bolt)
Hybrid encounter 27: Dimensional Charge (replaces Swordshock)
Hybrid daily 29: Legion's Hold (replaces Lightning Rod)

ITEMS
Staff of Ruin +6, Siberys Shard of the Mage (epic tier), Displacer Starleather Armor +6, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Antipathy Gloves (heroic tier), Eye of Awareness (epic tier), Torc of Power Preservation +6, Opal Ring of Remembrance (epic tier), War Ring (paragon tier), Belt of Mountain Endurance (paragon tier), Sandals of Avandra (epic tier)
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Nova turn runs as follows:

Minor: Promise of Storm: Thunder or Lightning power deal +3d8 damage until the end of the next turn. Triggers Elemental Echoes: All Arcane powers get +1 to attack and +6 to damage until the end of the next turn.
Minor: Quickened Thunderwave, +36 vs FORT, a Close Blast 4 dealing 2d6+37 +3d8+6 damage and triggering Echoes of Thunder for another +3 to damage until the end of the next turn. If you hit two or more enemies, add another +4 to the damage from Destructive Wizardry.
Standard: Master's Surge (Chain Lightning), +36 vs REF, dealing 6d6+32 +3d8+6 +3 damage to the first target, 4d6+32 +3d8+6 +3 to two secondary targets, and 3d6+32 +3d8+6 +3 to all other enemies within a range of 20. If you hit two or more enemies, add another +4 to the damage from Destructive Wizardry.
Action Point: Legion's Hold (Arcane Admixture: Thunder), +36 vs WILL, dealing 2d10+32 +3d8+6 +3 damage to all enemies within a range of 20 and stunning them (save ends). If you hit two or more enemies, add another +4 to the damage from Destructive Wizardry.

If anything is still standing after that, continue the Nova the second round with another Thunderwave, Chain Lightning (not expended by Master's Surge), Lightning Bolt, or Ball Lightning.

Besides that, an Swordburst with added Thunder keywords means you have a Burst 2 at-will that Slides all enemies caught up in it one due to the Mark. If you slot White Lotus Master Riposte into the build, you can repeat the attack (not the whole at-will burst though) for another slide if any enemy previously hit decides to attack you.

Ok, I've been fooling around a bit with your build and ended up with this:

Uphara-Cai


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Uphara-Cai, level 30
Genasi, Swordmage|Wizard, Academy Master, Champion of Prophecy
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Assault
Prophetic Blessing: Prophetic Blessing Strength
Prophetic Blessing: Prophetic Blessing Intelligence
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Arcane Admixture II: Arcane Admixture Thunder II
Arcane Admixture Power: Sword Burst
Arcane Admixture II: Legion's Hold
Quickened Spellcasting: Sword Burst

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 26, Con 12, Dex 15, Int 28, Wis 15, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 10.


AC: 44 Fort: 42 Reflex: 42 Will: 43
HP: 169 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 42

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +24, Athletics +28, Arcana +37

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +17, Endurance +18, Heal +17, History +28, Insight +17, Intimidate +16, Perception +17, Religion +28, Stealth +17, Streetwise +16, Thievery +17

FEATS
Level 1: Intelligent Blademaster
Level 2: Focused Expertise (Quarterstaff)
Level 4: Elemental Empowerment
Level 6: Mark of Storm
Level 8: Elemental Assault
Level 10: Elemental Echo
Level 11: Double Aegis
Level 12: Arcane Admixture
Level 14: Arcane Familiar
Level 16: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 18: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 20: Resounding Thunder
Level 21: Quickened Spellcasting
Level 22: Wizard Implement Expertise
Level 24: Robust Defenses
Level 26: Epic Will
Level 28: Weapon Focus (Staff)
Level 30: Arcane Admixture II

POWERS
Hybrid Swordmage at-will 1: Sword Burst
Hybrid Wizard at-will 1: Thunderwave
Hybrid encounter 1: Lightning Clash
Hybrid daily 1: Dimensional Thunder
Hybrid utility 2: Shield
Hybrid encounter 3: Shock Sphere
Hybrid daily 5: Fireball
Hybrid utility 6: Fate-Spurned Foe
Hybrid encounter 7: Lightning Bolt
Hybrid daily 9: Blade Bolt
Hybrid utility 10: Blur
Hybrid encounter 13: Thunderlance (replaces Lightning Clash)
Hybrid daily 15: Ball Lightning (replaces Dimensional Thunder)
Hybrid utility 16: Borrowed Confidence
Hybrid encounter 17: Swordshock (replaces Shock Sphere)
Hybrid daily 19: Lightning Rod (replaces Fireball)
Hybrid utility 22: Oni's Gift
Hybrid encounter 23: Chain Lightning (replaces Thunderlance)
Hybrid daily 25: Bounding Lightning (replaces Blade Bolt)
Hybrid encounter 27: Dimensional Charge (replaces Swordshock)
Hybrid daily 29: Legion's Hold (replaces Lightning Rod)

ITEMS
Staff of Ruin +6, Siberys Shard of the Mage (epic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Antipathy Gloves (heroic tier), Eye of Awareness (epic tier), Torc of Power Preservation +6, Opal Ring of Remembrance (epic tier), War Ring (paragon tier), Belt of Mountain Endurance (paragon tier), Sandals of Avandra (epic tier), Displacer Starleather Armor +6, Quickening Staff +6
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The most notable differences (besides a somewhat rearranged feat order) are:
  • Quickened Spellcasting (Sword Burst) instead of Extended Aegis - could it be that you intended to take this feat (seeing that you use it in your nova turn description) but happened to forget it when you added the feats in the CB? I think Sword Burst is slightly better in this case as it only targets enemies (even though you won't get the additional push that Thunderwave has)
  • Dual Implement Spellcaster instead of Echoes of Thunder - you can now also use a Quickening Staff +6 for additional Sword Burst/Thunderwave spamming! And of course all implement attacks get at an additional +6 damage boost
  • Arcane Familiar (Rakshasa Claw) instead of Destructive Wizardry - even though the CB doesn't seem to mind, you need to wield a staff in both hands in order to use it as a melee weapon, thus the familiar is needed in order to draw/stow one staff as a free action

A nova turn would be very similar to the one described by you, but the damage is slightly upped (about +3 from dual implement instead of Echoes of Thunder). Of course, depending on playstyle and campaign etc, Echoes of Thunder + Destructive Wizardry can give you more bang for the buck than Dual Implement + Familiar.

What do you think?
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A way to demonstrate this would be to find a power that does a type of damage without having that keyword. I don't have time to look for this, but if someone knows of one it would go a long way toward putting this to rest.

Done a bit of searching but without any luck, so far. All powers that deal a type of damage also have the keyword, it seems. And unfortunately when it comes to powers without any added effects (from feats or whatever), a power without the appropriate damage keyword would probably just prove a printing error by WotC, as the rule is that if a power contains typed damage, it also has the keyword. The uncertainty regarding added effects such as Shocking Flame would probably remain.

I think the argument most people use to dismantle Upho's interpretation is that some effects add damage types and specifically say to add a keyword or specifically have a keyword associated with them while others just add a damage type without mention of keyword. Thus the assumption is that adding a damage type does not necessarrily add the keyword. This line of reasoning may be erroneous because the real issue may just be that WotC is inconsistant in wording effects. The general rule may just be Upho's interpretation rather than the one that requires explicit addition of keywords.

On one hand, requiring explicit addition of keywords doesn't make sense logically because it creates a situation where a power does a kind of damage but isn't considered that kind of power. But on the other it makes some balance sense to make it more difficult to add keyword to prevent unintended combinations... like Mark of Storm sliding and proning everything with every power you use=)

I agree with all of this, although it seems quite a few of the builds which get the most out of MoS (and other similar effects) can (ab)use it without needing any combo related to the issue with keywords. So I guess if WotC intended keywords not to be added because of balance issues, they have failed, IMO.
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It's exactly as you say, Ordrek - there are ways (as proven in this thread) to add elemental damage without specifically adding keyword. And as there is no overall rule to govern this, although there's nothing against it, people may need concrete proof it does work in order to use it in their games.

That's why I'm trying to get a flat-out ruling, to be honest - it's something I'm interested in using in a game, and I want to make 100% sure it's rules legal before I do. My wife (who will be DMing) would probably rule it in my favor regardless, but I have a thing against house-ruling things on my characters for some reason.

Unfortunately, I think we will have to wait for an updated FAQ or errata to get a definitive ruling on this. And although I do think that the current RAW include significantly stronger arguments for adding keywords than not to, I think it's really hard to tell that this really was the intention.
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Do you really think that my MBA gains the frost keyword when it crits and I dont use the power on my frost weapon?

Well, although I think the RAW seem to support that, the relevance of this example is a bit questionable IMO. I was earlier actually thinking about using the same example as you have, but I believe it contains some components that make it a less valuable tool for helping us understand what the RAI are:
  • keyworded bonus damage feats/features (such as Shocking Flame) all say "your attacks/powers deal bonus damage of X type", none of them adds typed damage only to crits AFAIK
  • there are no keyword boosting effects such as MoS which specifically triggers of crits AFAIK - the feats/features etc in question all say "when you hit with/attack with/use an X keyword type of power" or similar - so while I think the RAW implies that you will get the effects of for example MoS when you crit with a Thundering weapon, it doesn't exactly add any balance issues to effects like MoS
  • you could say the example is only relevant to keyword boosting effects which happens on a hit, not to other boosting effects such as attack bonuses (f ex Storm Adept) or anything else related to your attack power before you actually roll the crit (f ex Resounding Thunder)
  • the example is of a weapon's extra crit damage meaning any conclusions drawn from this may (at least theoretically) only be applicable to special crit properties (which are only found in magic items used with attacks)

I think an example of an MBA with a Weapon of Summer (which has a keyworded damage bonus as a property) would be more relevant but even that may still only be applicabe to item properties and nothing else (especially since the rules for using an item's power with another power explicitly say that any keywords are added).
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I've added the hybrid build by Isenhertz to the OP and named it "Thunder Stormtrooper". Hope this is ok with you, Isenhertz?
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