Help Mike's Netizard

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So the net expert feat says you slow everyone you hit with a net attack.

I figured it would be cool if I fired long ranged large AOEs while using a net as an implement and slow everything I hit.

It took a bit of work but I managed to pull it off, but you need a level 8 magic item. Disrupting Net +2. This says your net counts as a holy symbol.

Hybrid rules say that any implement for one class is an implement for the other class also. So hybrid cleric lets me use holy symbols as my wizard implement.

So I figured go with Genasi for strength and int. Build a good genasi wizard using elemental empowerment as well as a good melee strength cleric wielding a net as his melee weapon.

Due to enlarge spell scorching burst becomes a ranged 10, burst 2 (5 by 5) which slows and does 1d6+10 damage. 1d6+12 if you don't increase the radius.

His other 3 wizard powers are all AOE spells that get bonus damage from his Elemental empowerment and can be increased in size with enlarge spell. Acid Mire is really nasty because the target is slowed and in a 5 by 5 zone of difficult damaging terrain (speed 1!).

Note that you also need to use the Windrise ports background because you need to be in a martial class to take net training which is also a multiclass feat. I took Warrior of the Wild because I love being trained in perception and I liked having hunter's quarry bonus damage.

So my question is, I felt like I jumped through a lot of hoops to pull this off and it still doesn't work until you get a level 8 magic item. Can anyone find a trick to do it at a lower level?

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Netizard, level 8
Genasi, Wizard|Cleric

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 20, Wis 13, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 8.


AC: 22 Fort: 19 Reflex: 19 Will: 17
HP: 50 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 12

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +10, Arcana +14, Religion +14, Perception +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +6, History +9, Insight +5, Intimidate +3, Nature +7, Stealth +4, Streetwise +3, Thievery +4, Athletics +9

FEATS
Level 1: Elemental Empowerment
Level 2: Enlarge Spell
Level 4: Warrior of the Wild
Level 6: Net Training
Level 8: Focused Expertise (Net)

POWERS
Hybrid Cleric at-will 1: Righteous Brand
Hybrid Wizard at-will 1: Scorching Burst
Hybrid daily 1: Shield of the Gods
Hybrid daily 5: Acid Mire
Hybrid encounter 1: Healing Strike
Hybrid encounter 3: Fire Shroud
Hybrid encounter 7: Winter's Wrath
Hybrid utility 2: Shield of Faith
Hybrid utility 6: Wizard's Escape

ITEMS
Disrupting Net +2, Mage's Parrying dagger +1, Battle Harness Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +2, Gloves of Piercing (heroic tier), Casque of Tactics (heroic tier)
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

Thanks,
Mike Donais. Cryptozoic R&D
I just wanted to drop by and say what an awesome idea this is. Sadly I cannot come up with a way to do this earlier then you have.
Cool thanks Boffer.

Maybe I will look towards a paragon path for Netizard.

Mike.
Mike Donais. Cryptozoic R&D
Har har har!!

That is a very clever idea. I kind of expect most DMs to call BS on it though.

I mean, daggermaster to boost dagger implement usage is one thing, but casting a fireball through a net to slow everyone??

Still, the idea is sufficiently awesome that some DMs might even allow it!
My Sorc Guide Link: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19649162/Joes_Sorcerer_Guide_AP_update_51509 My Genesi Wizard Blaster Link: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25082729/Miniguide_to_Genesi_LightningThunder_Blaster_Wizard_%2806-2010%29
You're in R&D, just slip a feat that lets you use nets as implements into PHB3 :D

Seriously though I can't see a way to do it earlier either, but I wanted to say it's an interesting idea and it's nice to see that even Wizards R&D comes up with crazy char op stuff.

It smells unbalanced to me, but then maybe having to jump through all those hoops makes up for it. I guess you'd know whether it's balanced or not, though.

As for flavor I can kind of see it... The wizard has figured out ways to involve nets in all his spells -- fireball through the net becomes fire net which covers the same area, etc.
Well, one trick is that you can do it at 7 by taking your level+1 item as the net



Hmmm ... nets are flails right?
Wait, I'm seeing a logical contradiction here (imagine that!):

The point of a net is that you throw it to ensnare enemies...
But magic thrown weapons automatically return to you...
So what happens when you throw a magic net?

Obviously, by RAW, it imparts the slow condition and returns to you, but that clearly doesn't make sense (but then again it is "magical").
Genius, Mike. The Fluff applications available for this type of off-the-wall idea are astronomical in number. Nice.
Resident Logic Cannon
Wait, I'm seeing a logical contradiction here (imagine that!):

The point of a net is that you throw it to ensnare enemies...
But magic thrown weapons automatically return to you...
So what happens when you throw a magic net?

Obviously, by RAW, it imparts the slow condition and returns to you, but that clearly doesn't make sense (but then again it is "magical").

Obviously, by fluff, the net leaves behind a 'magical residue' in the form of a glowing energy web that inflicts the slow/whatever else. (;
I was looking at paragon paths to see where Netizard goes at level 11. It seems like with his 3 and a half classes he has a few reasonable choices. The ever popular blood mage is not bad of course.

The one I liked best was Spellstorm Mage from PH1.

The action point ability is good, +half level damage to 2 attacks. At level 11 he also can regrow an encounter power 1/day basically.

His level 11 encounter power also works well with slow since it takes extra movement to go through:

Storm Cage Spellstorm Mage Attack 11
Encounter - Arcane Conjuration Implement Lightning Thunder
Standard Action - Burst 2 within 20 (burst 3 if I expand it)
Attack: Int vs reflex
Hit: 4d6+ int mod damage
Effect: (this is even on miss)
You conjure a wall in the 16 outer squares of the burst (forming a square enclosure). Any creature that starts its turn adjacent to the wall or moves into a wall squares takes 10 lightning damage. Moving into a wall square costs 1 extra square of movemnt. It lasts until the end of your next turn.

His level 12 power creates a giant sustainable difficult terrain area (great with slow). His level 20 power teleports all enemies within burst 10 (11 expanded) to any other squares within 11. And damages them (and slows of course since you are a netizard). That is a 23 by 23 area of dps and slow and teleport.

Great synergy with this build.
Mike Donais. Cryptozoic R&D
You're in R&D, just slip a feat that lets you use nets as implements into PHB3 :D

Or a class that uses net as implements. Then you could take Arcane Implement Proficiency.
Or a class that uses net as implements. Then you could take Arcane Implement Proficiency.

That would defeat the whole fun of finding crazy builds and figuring out how to best combine the existing elements!
Mike Donais. Cryptozoic R&D
This idea is awesome. It gets even more awesome when you grab something like Chilling Cloud/Chill Wind/Vanguard's Lightning with Bola Training or Whip Training to Illusory Ambush/Vicious Mockery.
Heh, this got a good chuckle out of me. . . I'd definitly allow it, and I'm going to file it away for use.

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71235715 wrote:
So the net expert feat says you slow everyone you hit with a net attack.

I figured it would be cool if I fired long ranged large AOEs while using a net as an implement and slow everything I hit.

It took a bit of work but I managed to pull it off, but you need a level 8 magic item. Disrupting Net +2. This says your net counts as a holy symbol.

Hybrid rules say that any implement for one class is an implement for the other class also. So hybrid cleric lets me use holy symbols as my wizard implement.====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Netizard, level 8
Genasi, Wizard|Cleric

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 20, Wis 13, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 8.


AC: 22 Fort: 19 Reflex: 19 Will: 17
HP: 50 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 12

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +10, Arcana +14, Religion +14, Perception +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +6, History +9, Insight +5, Intimidate +3, Nature +7, Stealth +4, Streetwise +3, Thievery +4, Athletics +9

FEATS
Level 1: Elemental Empowerment
Level 2: Enlarge Spell
Level 4: Warrior of the Wild
Level 6: Net Training
Level 8: Focused Expertise (Net)

POWERS
Hybrid Cleric at-will 1: Righteous Brand
Hybrid Wizard at-will 1: Scorching Burst
Hybrid daily 1: Shield of the Gods
Hybrid daily 5: Acid Mire
Hybrid encounter 1: Healing Strike
Hybrid encounter 3: Fire Shroud
Hybrid encounter 7: Winter's Wrath
Hybrid utility 2: Shield of Faith
Hybrid utility 6: Wizard's Escape

ITEMS
Disrupting Net +2, Mage's Parrying dagger +1, Battle Harness Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +2, Gloves of Piercing (heroic tier), Casque of Tactics (heroic tier)
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

Thanks,

I thought about doing this sort of thing before when I was trying to build a bola bard, but you can't do it with an arcane class other than bard because Net Training is a multiclass feat for martial classes, and this build only classifies as a martial class due to a multiclass feat. You can't have two multiclass feats unless you're a bard. However, you can't use holy symbols for arcane powers as a bard with the symbol of corellon, so that still doesn't get us very far. Perhaps I'm missing something somewhere because I think it's a neat idea, but I just couldn't figure out how to make it work.

If the Char builder allowed it, it probably is a bug.
Right, your missing the windrise ports background which is brand new and lets you take 2 multiclasses.
Mike Donais. Cryptozoic R&D
He's using the Windrise Ports background - it allows you to take a second MC feat.

It's easier if you want to do a divine class (with either net or bola) since you don't need to do the hybrid to get the implement.

DIVINE OPTIONS

Base class (Cleric) + Windrise Ports + martial MC + Bola/Net training + Disrupting (Bola/Net)

Hybrid Cleric + hybrid martial class + Bola/Net Training + Disrupting (Bola/Net)

Those are good and take less resources. Invokers would be better though, but they don't use holy symbols.

Hybrid Cleric + hybrid Invoker + Windrise Ports + Bola/Net Training + martial MC + Disrupting (Bola/Net)

This gets you probably the best power selection; Invokers tend to have better range and area options than Clerics (and both are very kind for the discriminating "targets enemies" powers). The nice thing is that you don't lose too much on the hybrid options between Cleric / Invoker.

I suppose Druid would be an option to throw on there (and the idea of a druid in beast form running around using his Bola/Net implement to lock people down is funny ... but most of the Druid powers do that kind of stuff anyway).

ARCANE OPTIONS

Assuming you want to do Wizard (the controller with the biggest bursts) it would be

Hybrid Wizard + Hybrid class what uses a holy symbol + Windrise Ports + martial MC + Bola/Net Training

I'm tempted to see how it works with a Swordmage though ... obviously the biggest area powers are on the Wizard. Still, an expanding Swordmage power is fun.


EDIT: Ninja'd by Mr. Donais.

And, PS, posting builds with what is obviously an updated version of the character builder is just plain mean.
The Netizard would be terrific in a party with characters possessing the Black Hood Executioner feat. Or whatever the name of that feat that gives + damage vs slowed enemies (compendium is currently down).

I still think this is a good combo:

A tiefling wizard…
…With the feat Arcane Implement Proficiency (choosing the Swordmage’s implement of heavy blade)
…Using a Flaming khopesh as implement (using that weapon’s at-will so all damage is fire damage)
…Wielding that implement in two hands (to get the Versatile bonus of +1 to damage)
…and the Hellfire Blood feat for +1 attack and damage with fire attacks
…has all spell damage, including AOEs, become Fire, Brutal 1, +1 attack, and +2 damage
The Netizard would be terrific in a party with characters possessing the Black Hood Executioner feat. Or whatever the name of that feat that gives + damage vs slowed enemies (compendium is currently down).

I still think this is a good combo:

A tiefling wizard…
…With the feat Arcane Implement Proficiency (choosing the Swordmage’s implement of heavy blade)
…Using a Flaming khopesh as implement (using that weapon’s at-will so all damage is fire damage)
…Wielding that implement in two hands (to get the Versatile bonus of +1 to damage)
…and the Hellfire Blood feat for +1 attack and damage with fire attacks
…has all spell damage, including AOEs, become Fire, Brutal 1, +1 attack, and +2 damage

Can't you also make them High Crit, or is that melee attacks?

Hmm...bolas sound fun to apply to this trick, but you have to give up your damage to immobilize them, right? We could use a whip - a -2 penalty to attack rolls of whoever you hit sounds nice - combine with Psychic Lock and you're handing out -4 to hit to anyone in your bursts.
Card Dump!

Keywords
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Can't you also make them High Crit, or is that melee attacks?

Hmm...bolas sound fun to apply to this trick, but you have to give up your damage to immobilize them, right? We could use a whip - a -2 penalty to attack rolls of whoever you hit sounds nice - combine with Psychic Lock and you're handing out -4 to hit to anyone in your bursts.

Hm, I like the sound of that. Bards have a ton of psychic attacks, some of which already have debuffs. That's some serious hurt put onto monsters.
Right, your missing the windrise ports background which is brand new and lets you take 2 multiclasses.

Is it in the latest update of the builder? Because I cannot find it...
No, not yet. August I think is when it goes in DDI / builder.
I never understood why the character builder summary doesn't include the Background info ... at least the *name* of the Background, so something like this doesn't get confusing later on: "Wait. How did I pull this off again?"

You know what I mean? It's a neat trick, definitely.
It probably needs some tweaking and I totally give you permission to use this as a Paragon Path in PHB3 (give me props, though .. or not, since it was your idea originally...)

Feel free to critique and, once it's finalized, I'll post it in the Homebrew forum so it can be added to the Custom Class list.

---------

Netizard
"Here. Hold this!"

Prerequisites: any arcane class; Proficiency with the Net; not multiclassed

You like the feel of the Net as you let it slide through your fingers. Nevermind that you are a Wizard, you just like the feel of it. Maybe you grew up around fisherman or your brother is a net-wielding Fighter. Whatever the reason, you've taken up the net as well. But you have a difference: you're a wizard. And most wizards don't use nets. But you do...

Netizard Path Features

Net Training (11th Level): You gain the Net Training multiclass feat, even if you don't qualify for it normally. This feat replaces your Weapon Proficiency (Net) feat pick and cannot be retrained.

Throwing Action (11th Level): Whenever you spend an action point to take another action, you can make a basic ranged attack with your Net as a free action, using your INT in place of your STR for the attack and damage.

Arcane Net (16th Level): You can use a Net as your arcane implement.

Netizard Spells

Break Away Netizard Attack 11
As your enemy turns to run, your spells start flying!
_______________________
Encounter ✦ Arcane, Implement
Immediate Interrupt Ranged 10
Trigger: An enemy in range moves away from you willingly.
Target: the triggering enemy
Attack: Intelligence vs. AC
_______________________
Hit: 1d10 + INT damage and the enemy is pulled 2 squares.


Nothing but Net Netizard Utility 12
With a gesture, you impart your Net training on your allies, if only for a little while.
_______________________
Daily ✦ Arcane
Standard Action Close burst 5
_______________________
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, whenever one of your allies in burst makes an attack, the attack adds the following to the Hit line: "The enemy is slowed (save ends.)"
Sustain Minor: The effect persists.


Casting the Net Netizard Attack 20
You throw your net and watch as it hits multiple foes.
_______________________
Daily ✦ Arcane, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 5
Requirements: Must be wielding a Net
Target: One enemy in range
Attack: Intelligence vs. AC
_______________________
Hit: 2d10 + INT modifier damage. Make a secondary attack.
Miss: Make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: Each enemy in burst 3 of the primary target
Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. AC
Hit: 2d10 + INT modifier damage.
If we're throwing out expansion ideas anyway, it would be nice to see a barbed net as an exotic weapon, kind of like the spiked chain. It would be an interesting weapon in an of itself and you could set up a netizard with just Arcane Implement Proficiency (assuming barded net would count as a light blade).

Granted, there are plenty of other quirky weapons I'd like to see return such as the orcish shotput, the weapon that's basically a thrown log, and the gnomish dagger-turtle shell combo, though I suppose that last one could just be a spiked shield.

On a side note, if you can find a way to bring Dragging Flail into the picture that would be a nice touch. Slow + knocked prone + slide 1 is an excellent combo.
Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
I never understood why the character builder summary doesn't include the Background info ... at least the *name* of the Background, so something like this doesn't get confusing later on: "Wait. How did I pull this off again?"

You know what I mean? It's a neat trick, definitely.

Good news! The patch today added this exact feature! Talk about instant response time!
Mike Donais. Cryptozoic R&D
I like the idea of using a net as an implement.  I imagine the wizard holding the net and chanting his arcane magics.  The net then glows, with a color appropriate to the spell damage type, as that "energy net" then flies to the target(s).

Question:  Why do you even need Windrise Ports if you're a hybrid?  You already count as a wizard and cleric from being a hybrid, and if you only needed net proficiency, then the single martial MC feat would have you covered.  Did I miss something on your build that requires you having two different martial classes?
Since someone else resurrected the thread:

Monks can use anything as an implement, freeing up your weapon enchantment.

Human Bolaizards (Thunderwave and Winged Horde) have a lot of control against melee encounters.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I like the idea of using a net as an implement.  I imagine the wizard holding the net and chanting his arcane magics.  The net then glows, with a color appropriate to the spell damage type, as that "energy net" then flies to the target(s).

Question:  Why do you even need Windrise Ports if you're a hybrid?  You already count as a wizard and cleric from being a hybrid, and if you only needed net proficiency, then the single martial MC feat would have you covered.  Did I miss something on your build that requires you having two different martial classes?


I figured it out after reading the weapon feats... they are multiclass feats, so you needed that extra slot.  What a drag...

Thread Necromancy strikes again!

The recent change to Windrise Ports breaks this build, since you can now no longer MC into a martial class *and* the Net training. 

Has anyone looked at refreshing this build since the change to Windrise Ports?


Thread Necromancy strikes again!

The recent change to Windrise Ports breaks this build, since you can now no longer MC into a martial class *and* the Net training. 

Has anyone looked at refreshing this build since the change to Windrise Ports?




I believe net training no longer has the martial class prereq.

Thread Necromancy strikes again!

The recent change to Windrise Ports breaks this build, since you can now no longer MC into a martial class *and* the Net training. 

Has anyone looked at refreshing this build since the change to Windrise Ports?




I believe net training no longer has the martial class prereq.



So, this build can now be done with a Wizard|Monk hybrid.  Sweet.  I'll slap one together and see if I can make it look good. 
I was trying to figure out a way to do net-as-implement with the Half-Elf feat Adept Dilettante, but I'm not finding a feat other than multiclass ones (can't take) and arcane implement proficiency (no flail).

I'm currently exploring a net-based Battlemind using similar tactics.  Being a half-elf not only opens Adept Dilettante (which allows you to take some tasty feats from your Dilettante class), but also opens Foamgather Heritage/Warrior for an untyped +1 to hit with net and a grabbing at-will attack.  I'll post that build after it has had time to simmer.
question about this build. so does the net's slowing effect apply even if you aren't attacking with it as a weapon? for example, if a cleric used lance of faith through the disrupting net from 5 squares away, would he get the slowing effect from the weapon as well?
As intended by the people who wrote the feats?  No.

But the feats don't currently say "if you hit with a weapon attack while wielding the net".  They say "When you hit a target with your net".

Was a net your implement?  Yes?  It's an implement attack?  yes?  Then you hit a target with your net, just like you'd have hit a target with your wand were you wielding a wand.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Thanks for the quick reply.
Would anyone happen to know how to get the net as an implement without multiclassing or hybridizing?
Would anyone happen to know how to get the net as an implement without multiclassing or hybridizing?

Not really possible.
i was afraid of that.  I am currently using a Ki focus but was wanting to do it another way.  is there a way to get holy symbols without mc'ing or being a hybrid? which is almost the same question just more focused.
Sorry for the thread necro, but I found this off the wiki and enjoyed the build.


Isn't there a theme that gives you access to ki foci as implements?  Flame initiate or something like that.  Grab that as your theme and you're ready to go.  

Alternatively, if you're planning on being an illusionist (or at least a Cha-pumping wizard), you can hybrid Paladin.  You can get all armor/shield proficiencies with your Hybrid Talent and you get Hybrid Challenge, which usually will let you mark a dude and blast him for Cha damage each turn if you can include him in your attacks.  In addition, some Paladin powers use implements and are not entirely awful, so it's not like you're wasting some power choices.  And Bless Weapon is a pretty neat Utility 2, especially if you do have a lot of aoe spells.
Ki Focus can only be employed in conjunction with a weapon for weapon attacks.  It does nothing for the Netizard for implement attacks since it doesn't count as a net.  Now a pure or hybrid monk or assassin can also use weapons as implements, but that's another story.