Hybrid Classes Mk. II: Electric Boogaloo

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www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/2009May2 wrote:
Last month, we posted a playtest version of a new character-building option slated for release in Player’s Handbook 3: the hybrid character. Thanks to your feedback, we’ve improved the hybrid character rules, now available for your perusal. We’ve also added the eight classes appearing in Player’s Handbook 2, meaning that the number of hybrid combinations available for playtest jumps from 56 to a whopping 272!

Further Edit: I'm not saying much more since I don't have the actual article, in case I get details from second-hand sources wrong.
... No, it doesn't work that way. You can't "upgrade" Oath of Enmity with Hybrid Talent. Hybrid Avengers only get the Roll Twiceitude* with Avenger/Avenger PP powers, forever.

CRISIS AVERTED!!!

* Totally a word
... No, it doesn't work that way. You can't "upgrade" Oath of Enmity with Hybrid Talent. Hybrid Avengers only get the Roll Twiceitude* with Avenger/Avenger PP powers, forever.

CRISIS AVERTED!!!

* Totally a word

Well, it seems like they don't receive the Oath of Enmity altogether. Which, like I said, means they'd get to select Hybrid Talent (Oath of Enmity) for the full version. I'm only going off my contact's message of "hybrid avenger gets CD, Armor of Faith and hybrid censure," so take it with a grain of sault.
Well, it seems like they don't receive the Oath of Enmity altogether. Which, like I said, means they'd get to select Hybrid Talent (Oath of Enmity) for the full version. I'm only going off my contact's message of "hybrid avenger gets CD, Armor of Faith and hybrid censure," so take it with a grain of sault.

The article is out which is why he's saying it doesn't work.

And.. it doesn't.
Well, it seems like they don't receive the Oath of Enmity altogether. Which, like I said, means they'd get to select Hybrid Talent (Oath of Enmity) for the full version. I'm only going off my contact's message of "hybrid avenger gets CD, Armor of Faith and hybrid censure," so take it with a grain of sault.

I've seen the actual article, and your source has misinformed you. The fact is, the Hybrid Version of Oath of Enmity is all that a Hybrid Avenger brings to the table.

Check it out, if you doubt me.
I've seen the actual article, and your source has misinformed you. The fact is, the Hybrid Version of Oath of Enmity is all that a Hybrid Avenger brings to the table.

Check it out, if you doubt me.

I can't actually check it because I don't have a D&Di subscription, unfortunately, but your word has been taken.
It looks like Warlords got a solid nerfing, too. I have a Warlord/Wizard hybrid that's all about ally buffing. All he gets now is +init and cantrips. 1/enc buff to ally ap is really rough.

Also, what does 1/enc Presence mean? When I use a warlord power that gets a bonus for 'Tactical Presence', do I have to burn my encounter's use of Presence in order to get the rider? What about a feat that requires 'Tactical Presence'? Do I burn my 1/enc use in to give an ally +int damage with Tactical Assault?

Assuming you have to burn your Presence to use stuff that depends on it (which would be strange if you didn't), the Hybrid presence hardly seems worth taking.

More interesting is the Armor Proficiency stuff. It is basically a two-for-one feat if you only get cloth. For either hide or chain, it's two feats to get there. I'm not sure how I feel about this one.

The 'Hybrid Talent' feat is clearly designed to let you fill in the gaps in one of your char roles, but Warlord seems to wind up with no solid class features to define him. My wizard side gets almost no class features (come on, cantrips?), but he does pretty well regardless. I can effectively control with controller powers as a hybrid wizard. I'm kinda struggling to lead as a hybrid warlord.

The first playtest of Hybrid gave warlords too much. However, I think this one took away too much. 1/enc ap cuts its effect to a quarter. I'd rather see it more reliable, but smaller. Perhaps set it at Intelligence Modifier / 4 instead. Let me pick a Presence and actually use it for my encounter riders.
Question:
The "Hybrid Talent" feat can only be taken once right?

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
On the armor note, some people felt that it was fine before while others felt you should get all the armor prof. from both classes to start with. This creates a middle ground. I actually like it this way.

Question:
The "Hybrid Talent" feat can only be taken once right?

Correct, but you can also get it once more if you do paragon hybriding(or whatever you call it).
..
Correct, but you can also get it once more if you do paragon hybriding(or whatever you call it).

Cool, I thought so, thank you. That was the only thing I thought might be sketchy would be if you could just take it more than once to eventually get everything...

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
It looks like Warlords got a solid nerfing, too. I have a Warlord/Wizard hybrid that's all about ally buffing. All he gets now is +init and cantrips. 1/enc buff to ally ap is really rough.

Also, what does 1/enc Presence mean? When I use a warlord power that gets a bonus for 'Tactical Presence', do I have to burn my encounter's use of Presence in order to get the rider? What about a feat that requires 'Tactical Presence'? Do I burn my 1/enc use in to give an ally +int damage with Tactical Assault?

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's just referring to the benefit you grant when an ally spends an action point, not to the additional benefit added to any power. My reading of it is that the powers would still get those benefits.
Anyone else really want to make a Swordmage/Avenger go Paragon Hybrid and have ridiculous AC through Swordmage Warding and Armor of Faith?

Despite the fact that it would probably make a horrible character.
First thing that jumps out to me is an urgosh wielding fighter/barbarian. Hybrid feat for battlerager, shock trooper paragon. When your encounter powers are hurricane of blades, storm of blades, rain of blows and shocking twister, all with a 2d6 weapon your in pretty good shape no matter where you go from there.
First thing that jumps out to me is an urgosh wielding fighter/barbarian. Hybrid feat for battlerager, shock trooper paragon. When your encounter powers are hurricane of blades, storm of blades, rain of blows and shocking twister, all with a 2d6 weapon your in pretty good shape no matter where you go from there.

A Khopesh is neither an offhand weapon or a light blade.

So I don't see it.
He did write urgrosh, not khopesh. Still, that's 1d12 damage, not 2d6.
A Khopesh is neither an offhand weapon or a light blade.

So I don't see it.

But an urgosh is an off and weapon and a spear, I think you need to reread what you quoted!
He did write urgrosh, not khopesh. Still, that's 1d12 damage, not 2d6.

Shock trooper makes it 2d6, and gives an nice encounter that has 3 attacks, it's a very underated paragon path.
... Well, that's what I get for posting at 1 in the morning. :surrender
Same, I guess, as I didn't think of the shock trooper ability.
So, ehm, what else is new and exciting? Anything that really stands out? How's the bard, for example? (I don't have access to D&DI where I am now.)
The Warlock's new Hybrid rules are really juicy. The new rules allow you to select a Eldritch Pact without gaining the At Will or Pact Boon (though the Pact Boon is a Hybrid Talent Option). This effectively fixes the argument of 4-5 max at wills for Human Hybrid Warlocks, but also opens up new doors of optimization since you can mix and match your at wills to best fit what you want to do, AND take a second Eldritch Pact complete with the At Will and Pact Boon through the Twofold Pact feat. You also get the bonus for the powers you select from Warlock based upon your Eldritch Pact.

I'm looking forward to seeing people customize the hell out of the new Warlock rules to maximize your potential output :-)
Anyone else really want to make a Swordmage/Avenger go Paragon Hybrid and have ridiculous AC through Swordmage Warding and Armor of Faith?

Despite the fact that it would probably make a horrible character.

hehe I thought of that too.

We have the new AC winner here. Swordmage Warding + Improved Swordmage Warding + Greater swordmage warding + Armor of Faith + Improved Armor of Faith + Leather + High Intellect. I can argue you get unhittable but with a roll of 20 :P

P.S Its a good chance now to nerf Armor of Faith to cloth armor only :P
Dwarf Battleragers are getting two ways to boost their hit chance, Twin Strike (and other multi-attack ranger powers), or Eldritch Strike (and other con based warlock powers).

A Rageblood Barbarian becomes much better at what he does with hybrid Battlerager. Ditto for Earth Warden hybrid Battlerager. Even a two weapon Ranger gets good milage out of the battlerager temp hitpoints, and extra damage feature.

Battleragers suck the fun out of optimizing.
Also, what does 1/enc Presence mean? When I use a warlord power that gets a bonus for 'Tactical Presence', do I have to burn my encounter's use of Presence in order to get the rider? What about a feat that requires 'Tactical Presence'? Do I burn my 1/enc use in to give an ally +int damage with Tactical Assault?

No, of course not. You always count as having the Tactical Presence class feature. You can only use Tactical Presence - the active form of it described in its entry - once per encounter. Consider the Wizard Arcane Implement options - even if I use my 'once per encounter' Staff of Defense, I still count as having the class feature when I use a wizard power that gets a bonus for 'Staff of Defense'.

Exact same thing here.

I am definitely in favor of this fix for Warlords. Combat Leader and Inspiring Word out of the gate is pretty strong (especially for a class that synergizes well with so many others). Weakening Commanding Presence keeps this from just being a full Warlord with extra options, and I think thats vital to keeping the Hybrid classes balanced.
The Warlock now gains a hybrid form of eldritch pact that doesn't include the at-will attack or pact boon powers (you can choose any at-will anyway).

One funny thing is that through Hybrid Talent, you can gain also the pact boon (if you also have the at-will attack corresponding to your pact) of your pact, but it's obviously much better to skip/retrain this and take Twofold Pact in paragon instead, giving you a total of three at-wills and one pact boon. And it saves your Hybrid Talent for another class feature.
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I'm a big fan of most of these. I feel like the Shaman gets my favorite class features almost unadultered and hybriding him with Cleric makes a pretty ballin' healer. Also, half-orc fighter|ranger/barbarian hybred talent tempest wielding a double sword... watch for it. The best part of these rules is the huuuge openings for new character concepts, such as the shaman|warlock Witchdocter posted on these forums, and a dwarf warlord|cleric Warleader. Add in the use of multiclass and we are to a point were there really isn't much you can't stat up now.
No, of course not. You always count as having the Tactical Presence class feature. You can only use Tactical Presence - the active form of it described in its entry - once per encounter. Consider the Wizard Arcane Implement options - even if I use my 'once per encounter' Staff of Defense, I still count as having the class feature when I use a wizard power that gets a bonus for 'Staff of Defense'.

Exact same thing here.

I am definitely in favor of this fix for Warlords. Combat Leader and Inspiring Word out of the gate is pretty strong (especially for a class that synergizes well with so many others). Weakening Commanding Presence keeps this from just being a full Warlord with extra options, and I think thats vital to keeping the Hybrid classes balanced.

As I play a hybrid warlord, I almost started loading up the flamethrowers when people mentioned that presences only worked once per encounter. I thought that meant you could only benefit from ANYTHING related to them once per encounter. Thank god it's not the case, since the nerf seems reasonable without turning the warlord into a pile of crap. His strength comes from the powers enhanced by his presence, not the presence itself, so the nerf is minor, but it still keeps him in line with the rest of the hybrids.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
A fighter|warden paragon hybrid-ing to receive both Battlerager Vigor AND Earthstrength? That there is some real synergy. You get to mark enemies with your hybrid Combat Challenge, mark one adjacent enemy each turn as a free action with your hybrid Nature's Wrath, use your Constitution modifier in place of your Dexterity or Intelligence modifier for your AC in light armor (hide armor, that is), AND you get the almighty Form of Winter's Herald as a level 1 daily. Good times.
...But Form Of The Winter's Herald SUCKS for a fighter. You don't get the immediate attacks on shift, so it actually hurts you. The rest is good, but that choice is, in the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar, a trap.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
A Eladrin Rogue/Fighter with Swordmage+Eladrin Swordmage Advance could easily equal 2w+2w with a +3 to hit as an at-will until you miss with the charge attack. Sure, you lose the sneak damage, but...

Pick up powers that can be used on a charge and you're set...
...But Form Of The Winter's Herald SUCKS for a fighter. You don't get the immediate attacks on shift, so it actually hurts you. The rest is good, but that choice is, in the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar, a trap.

You do, however, get opportunity attacks instead of melee basic attacks. Sure, they won't stop enemy movement, but they will make you incredibly sticky, and you will get to use Knockdown Assault on your OA to knock prone (and end movement anyway) while still retaining your immediate action for a Combat Challenge immediate interrupt, Warden's Fury, or Warden's Grasp.
I like that Warlocks get a pact by default, even though they don't gain the boon unless they pick up Hybrid Talent. Makes qualifying for Paragon Paths a lot easier.
Wishlist: -Alternate ability bonuses for pre-PHB3 races -Lots more superior implements or an official customization rule -Monk multiclass feat that grants Unarmed Combatant
Anyone else really want to make a Swordmage/Avenger go Paragon Hybrid and have ridiculous AC through Swordmage Warding and Armor of Faith?

Despite the fact that it would probably make a horrible character.

Deva puts 16 in both Int and Wis +2 both…18/18 12 in str 12 in con 8 in cha 10 in dex

Armor of Faith
The favor of your deity wards you from harm. While
you are neither wearing heavy armor nor using a
shield, you gain a +3 bonus to AC.

Improved Armor of Faith
Prerequisite: Avenger, armor of faith power
Benefit: While you are neither wearing heavy
armor nor using a shield, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.
The bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at
21st level.



Swordmage Warding
While you are conscious and wielding either a light
blade or a heavy blade, you maintain a field of magical
force around you.
This field provides a +1 bonus to AC, or a +3 bonus
if you are wielding a blade in one hand and have your
other hand free (not carrying a shield, an off-hand
weapon, a two-handed weapon, or anything else).

GREATER SWORDMAGE WARDING
Prerequisite: lIth level, Str l3, Con l3, swordmage,
Swordmage Warding class feature
Benefit: While your Swordmage Warding is
active, you gain a +1 feat bonus to all defenses.
At 21st level, this bonus increases to +2.

Armor Proficiency (Hide)
Prerequisites: Str 13, Con 13, training with
leather armor
Benefit: You gain training with hide armor.
Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Benefit: You gain training with leather armor.



Base def +1 will +1 Fort
11th level (+3 hide)+6 (Int 21)+5 (1/2 level) +5 (Class and feat)+9= 35 AC
20 Fort 24 Ref 25 Will HP 87 #hs 8
21st level (+5 hide) +9 (Int 24)+7 (1/2 level)+10 (Class and feat) +11= 47 AC
29 Fort 34 Ref 35 Will HP 148 #hs 9
30th level (+6 hide) +11 (Int 26)+8 (1/2 level)+15 (Class and feat) +11= 55 AC
33 Fort 41 Ref 42 Will HP 202 #hs 9


at 11th level that is 5 feats (hybri tal, Imp Arm faith, Great sw War, and 2 armor prof) out of 7...take one as Int blade master, and the other as Focus Expertise

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

Deva puts 16 in both Int and Wis +2 both…18/18 12 in str 12 in con 8 in cha 10 in dex

...

at 11th level that is 5 feats (hybri tal, Imp Arm faith, Great sw War, and 2 armor prof) out of 7...take one as Int blade master, and the other as Focus Expertise

Oh, it's quite doable, my comment was mostly a jab at Avenger powers being.. less than helpful and half your powers have to be from them.
Oh, it's quite doable, my comment was mostly a jab at Avenger powers being.. less than helpful and half your powers have to be from them.

Well it's half at first just because you don't have many powers, but the restriction is that you must have one of each category of power from each class. Once you have 1 power from avenger in each category nothing is stopping you from just taking swordmage powers. So at level 11 for example you can have this:

at-will: 1 avenger, 1 swordmage
encounter: 1 avenger, 3 swordmage
daily: 1 avenger, 2 swordmage
utility: 1 avenger, 2 swordmage

If you want to do more damage or something you can always multiclass for better powers, just as long as you keep 1 power from each of the classes in each category.
As I play a hybrid warlord, I almost started loading up the flamethrowers when people mentioned that presences only worked once per encounter. I thought that meant you could only benefit from ANYTHING related to them once per encounter. Thank god it's not the case, since the nerf seems reasonable without turning the warlord into a pile of crap. His strength comes from the powers enhanced by his presence, not the presence itself, so the nerf is minor, but it still keeps him in line with the rest of the hybrids.

I'm not so sure. Commanding Presence (Hybrid) functions exactly the same as Commanding Presence, except only once per encounter. So I go to check what Commanding Presence gives:
Choose one of the following presence benefits below.
The choice you make also provides bonuses to certain warlord powers. Individual powers detail the effects (if any) your Commanding Presence selection has on them.

It looks like the whole Commanding Presence is usable once per encounter, not just the subchoice it grants you. That means that if you want the text 'The choice you make also provides bonuses to certain warlord powers', you need to use your Commanding Presence use.
That...doesn't make sense. Don't we have the example of the Wizard AP powers to differentiate that from what hybrid talent stipulates?
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
That...doesn't make sense. Don't we have the example of the Wizard AP powers to differentiate that from what hybrid talent stipulates?

The wizard features don't help us much here:
You specialize in the use of one kind of implement to gain additional abilities when you wield it. Choose one of the following forms of implement mastery: Orb of Imposition, Staff of Defense, Wand of Accuracy.

And then in each of these subchoices, it specifies 'once per encounter'. So the wizard is very clear, you always have Implement Mastery, so you always 'gain additional abilities when you wield it'.

For the Hybrid Commanding Presence, it turns off the whole Presence except for once per encounter. And that appears to turn off the text that grants you benefits with your powers.
Is it just me, or does the hybrid divine challenge seem really weak? Especially since there's a pretty good argument that divine challenge is already too weak. It may be (barely) workable with a Charisma paladin|whatever, but it looks completely unusable for a hybrid Strength paladin.
Is it just me, or does the hybrid divine challenge seem really weak? Especially since there's a pretty good argument that divine challenge is already too weak. It may be (barely) workable with a Charisma paladin|whatever, but it looks completely unusable for a hybrid Strength paladin.

It is really weak. Hopefully paladins will get some feats that improve their marking abilities in divine power.

The major weakness to me is that it requires an immediate reaction to activate the damage ability.
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