"Thunderglaive" - swordmage|wizard controller

30 posts / 0 new
Last post
Here, we have a character whose aim it is to inconvenience monsters greatly. Starting at 2nd level, his thunderwave will knock monsters prone, in addition to pushing them. His wizard side is initially focused on immobilizing zones.

Eladrin swordmage|wizard, 2nd level

You could be a Deva as well and do this at 2nd level; you could be a human with a 16 INT and do it at 1st level (and have Magic Missile as well, for some really sneaky Reaper's Touch/Polearm Gamble stuff which Sithobi1 links to); or you could be a Stormsoul Genasi and do it at 4th level - taking as much advantage from Promise of Storm as anyone ever will.


STR 13
CON 10
DEX 15
INT 18
WIS 15
CHA 8

HP: 27 AC 15 Fort|Ref|Will: 12|15|15
Hybrid Aegis of Shielding, Cantrips
Skills: Acrobatics, Arcana, Endurance, Religion, Heal

Feats: Battle Awareness (heal), Polearm Momentum
At Will: Thunderwave, Booming Blade
Encounter: Grasping Shadows (a short duration zone, but a zone)
Daily: Dimensional Thunder
Utility: Shield
Weapon & Implement: Glaive

As you use your implement glaive on thunderwave, you will wisely knock your opponents back two squares, triggering polearm momentum, and leaving them prone. Towards the end of your career, you will knock them back more like 10 squares...

Progression through heroic:
Show


3rd level: Transposing Lunge
4th level: +1 INT, +1 WIS, Implement Mastery: heavy blades
5th level: Grasp of the Grave (mmm...they take damage when I push them into it, they are DAZED, they are knocked prone - it will take them a while to get out. The first round, they get to stand up.)
6th level: Amarthor's Step, Enlarge Spell (-2 to damage to increase the size of my blast - from the Arcane Power excerpts) - I'll take it, assuming that's really what it does
7th level: Winter's Wrath (it's a zone; extra damage from Thunderwave isn't a bad thing)
8th level: +1 INT, +1 WIS, White Lotus Riposte (INT damage to an opponent I hit with an arcane at will power if they attack me)
9th level: Ice Storm
10th level: +1 INT, +1 WIS, Leather Proficiency, Dimensional Dodge
11th level: +1 to all stats, Resounding Thunder (increase thunder blast & burst by 1) Paragon Path: Blood Mage, Encounter: Blood Pulse (yum)



Snapshot at 11th level:
Show

STR 14
CON 11
DEX 16
INT 21
WIS 18
CHA 9

HP: 78 AC 24 Fort|Ref|Will: 19|22|23

At Will: Thunderwave, Booming Blade
Encounter: Fey Step, Grasping Shadows, Transposing Lunge, Winter's Wrath, Blood Pulse
Daily: Dimensional Thunder, Grasp of the Grave, Wall of Fire
Utility: Dimensional Dodge, Shield, Amarthor's Step
Feats: Resounding Thunder, Polearm Momentum, Battle Awareness, Leather Proficiency, Implement Mastery (heavy blades), Enlarge Spell, White Lotus Riposte

At this point, we have an at-will blast 5 attack that pushes all opponents back 4 squares (more, with item help), knocks them prone, and gives a minor action shift if you hit someone. This combos well with Blood Pulse, I understand, because you can get them ALL the turn afterward, dealing an extra 4d6 damage to every target. You can teleport twice per combat. Grasping Shadows and Winter's Wrath give you a couple of mild encounter based zones to drop enemies into; Grasp of the Grave and Wall of Fire give you a couple of encounter-long zones to have them visit.


Paragon Progression:
Show

12th level: Soul Burn (utility), White Lotus Master Riposte (repeat the thunderwave attack against an enemy I hit who attacks me? Ooh...)
13th level: Frostburn to replace Grasping Shadows
14th level: +1 INT, +1 WIS; Arcane Reach (mmm)
15th level: Reaper's Challenge to replace Dimensional Thunder
16th level: Displacement; War Wizardry (-5 to hit allies in blast, half damage - just in case my allies haven't learned their lesson and worked on their thunder resistance)
17th level: Spidersilk Slash to replace Transposing Lunge
18th level: +1 INT, +1 WIS; Weapon Focus: Heavy Blades
19th level: Evard's Black Tentacles to replace Wall of Fire
20th level: Destructive Salutation; Hybrid Talent (Arcane Implement Mastery - pick orbs)
21st level: Demigod; +1 all stats, divine spark (INT & WIS), Martial Resolve, Spell Accuracy (replaces War Wizardry)


Snapshot at 21st level:
Show

STR 15
CON 12
DEX 17
INT 26
WIS 23
CHA 10

HP 124 AC 37 Fort|Ref|Will: 26|32|33
At Will: Thunderwave, Booming Blade
Encounter: Fey Step, Frostburn, Spidersilk Slash, Winter's Wrath, Blood Pulse
Daily: Reaper's Challenge, Grasp of the Grave, Evard's Black Tentacles, Destructive Salutation
Utility: Dimensional Dodge, Shield, Amarthor's Step, Soulburn, Displacement
Feats: Resounding Thunder, Polearm Momentum, Battle Awareness, Leather Proficiency, Implement Mastery (heavy blades), Enlarge Spell, White Lotus Riposte, White Lotus Master Riposte, Weapon Focus (heavy blades), Arcane Reach, Spell Accuracy, Martial Resolve, Hybrid Talent - Arcane Implements.

With Rushing Cleats and a Ring of Ramming, you can have some attractive push 8, knock prone at will action - in a blast 5. You can omit up to 6 allies from that blast...if an enemy is fast enough to charge you after that, you can do it to him again.


Epic Progression:
Show


22nd: Mass Fly, Epic Resurgence
23rd: Thunder Riposte & Crushing Titan's Fist for Winter's Wrath and Spidersilk Slash
24th: +1 INT, +1 WIS, Robust Defenses
25th: Necrotic Web for Evard's Black Tentacles
26th: Divine Regeneration, Arcane Mastery
27th: Confusion for Frostburn
28th: +1 INT, +1 STR, Implement Expertise (orb)
29th: Legion's Hold for Grasp of the Grave
30th: Divine Miracle, Epic Fortitude
Not bad.

One thing I'd change is that I'd say go with Aegis of Assault. Perhaps it's weaker than Aegis of Shielding, but your Shielding Aegis isn't going to be reducing much damage because of your low CON.

A list of CharOp Handbooks I'm currently updating:

Heart of the Dragon: A Dragonborn's Handbook

Infernal Wrath: A Tiefling's Handbook

Not bad.

One thing I'd change is that I'd say go with Aegis of Assault. Perhaps it's weaker than Aegis of Shielding, but your Shielding Aegis isn't going to be reducing much damage because of your low CON.

Thanks.

The problem is that the Aegis of Assault isn't going to be doing all that much damage, either, because of my lousy weapon. But you may well be right.
I made a similar build, using Magic Missile and Reaper's Touch along with Polearm Gamble.
I made a similar build, using Magic Missile and Reaper's Touch along with Polearm Gamble.

It's a nice, but actually quite different build. I wanted to use Polearm Gamble, but it only works on attacks with the weapon keyword. (Edit: oops, I am stupid; I was thinking of Heavy Blade Opportunity)

This build is entirely dedicated to knocking opponents prone (and pushing them into damage zones) every round with Thunderwave, from 2nd level on, in blasts of increasing size.

The link I'm seeing has Thunderlance, which is a nice enough power, and is, perhaps, relying on Magic Missile Wand push stuff? Are you sure it works when you don't wield the wand to do it? Are you sure it will work at all with Polearm Gamble?
Heh, I literally just thought of the thunderwave + controlling glaive combo minutes before finding this thread. I may actually try this out. I've been playing a dwarven thunderwave mage for a few months now and I've been looking for some ways to get more out of it. Autoprone sounds like a very nice addition.

On a side note, you don't have to be a hybrid to use this option. With the Arcane Implement Proficiency feat you can use heavy blades as implements. Granted you'd also have to spend a feat on glaive proficiency as a wizard.

That being said, I've been itching to try out the hybrid rules. I was just thinking of which class it would be best to merge with my push-bot. This may very well decide it. :D
Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
Heh, I literally just thought of the thunderwave + controlling glaive combo minutes before finding this thread. I may actually try this out. I've been playing a dwarven thunderwave mage for a few months now and I've been looking for some ways to get more out of it. Autoprone sounds like a very nice addition.

You totally don't need a controlling glaive, of course. If you qualify for Polearm Momentum, you'll push far enough.

On a side note, you don't have to be a hybrid to use this option. With the Arcane Implement Proficiency feat you can use heavy blades as implements. Granted you'd also have to spend a feat on glaive proficiency as a wizard.

I expect you're right, but it's hard to know for sure without seeing the actual feat. Has it been spoiled somewhere? This build doesn't especially use swordmage, and would be happy to get rid of it...although it takes the basic thing from something you can do at 2nd level to something you can do at 6th level.

That being said, I've been itching to try out the hybrid rules. I was just thinking of which class it would be best to merge with my push-bot. This may very well decide it. :D

Good luck!
It's a nice, but actually quite different build. I wanted to use Polearm Gamble, but it only works on attacks with the weapon keyword. (Edit: oops, I am stupid; I was thinking of Heavy Blade Opportunity)

This build is entirely dedicated to knocking opponents prone (and pushing them into damage zones) every round with Thunderwave, from 2nd level on, in blasts of increasing size.

The link I'm seeing has Thunderlance, which is a nice enough power, and is, perhaps, relying on Magic Missile Wand push stuff? Are you sure it works when you don't wield the wand to do it? Are you sure it will work at all with Polearm Gamble?

The wand doesn't require that you attack with it, so you just hold it in your offhand while you wield the glaive in your main hand. Polearm Gamble grants you a melee basic, Reaper's Touch makes Magic Missile a melee basic...
Nice build. Depending on your campaign you might be able to use the Gritty Sergeant background to get your proficiency and do this with a normal wizard without too much pain.

In theory you could do it at level 2 with a human wizard, but your int would go down because of the MAD so it isn't really worth it.


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
level 4
Eladrin, Wizard
Build: War Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Orb of Imposition
Gritty Sergeant: Weapon Proficiency (Glaive)
Background: Gritty Sergeant

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 10, Dex 15, Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 8.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 13, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 8.


AC: 17 Fort: 14 Reflex: 17 Will: 18
HP: 32 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 8

TRAINED SKILLS
Perception, Arcana, Religion, History, Diplomacy, Athletics.

FEATS
1: Ritual Caster
1: Battle Awareness
2: Polearm Momentum
4: Arcane Implement Proficiency

POWERS
1, At-Will: Thunderwave
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Mike Donais. Cryptozoic R&D
I expect you're right, but it's hard to know for sure without seeing the actual feat. Has it been spoiled somewhere? This build doesn't especially use swordmage, and would be happy to get rid of it...although it takes the basic thing from something you can do at 2nd level to something you can do at 6th level.

I don't want to spoil too much, but I will say you may want to check out rpg.net for some interesting info. From what I've seen the feat:
  • Lets you select any type of implement used by an arcane class
  • Applies to all your arcane powers
  • Specifically mentions what happens if the chosen implement is a weapon
Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
Use a Mage's Weapon and you don't even need to take the Glaive Prof feat... unless I'm mistaken and you can't make it a Polearm.

Great Idea! Makes me want to play a Wizard again.

Theziner
Take the feat from Arcane Power that allows you to use a new implement type for your class powers.

In other words, just take the feat so you can use Heavy Blades as an implement for your Wizard spells, and then you don't even need to touch Swordmage.
I'm hoping that Arcane Power will have some powers that make swordmages an OK class to hybridize with.

Wizard, after all, has almost nothing to offer here (except, um, all the powers, but I'm talking features here). I'm not using a wizard implement, and have no plans to until Epic. There's nothing wrong with the (incredibly passive) Aegis of Shielding that this character has -- the plan is to run around like a madman anyway, which is a good thing for a swordmage to do -- and having more hit points and healing surges is never a bad plan. Swordmage saves two feats, as well, and that's very useful. Being able to do the basic character trick earlier in your career is always nice.

Really, if there's a decent swordmage 15 daily and 23 encounter in Arcane Power, I'd just as soon stick with the hybrid.
Hmm.. well I have heard they're getting an Aegis of Ensnaring that teleports the marked enemy adjacent to you. I suppose you could mark an enemy then stand within thunderwave distance of a pit, fire, or other tasty hazardous terrain..

You could combine this with the level 15 daily Free the Storm Within. Teleport them next to you then push them away to trigger it's auto-damage.
Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
I'm hoping that Arcane Power will have some powers that make swordmages an OK class to hybridize with.

Wizard, after all, has almost nothing to offer here (except, um, all the powers, but I'm talking features here). I'm not using a wizard implement, and have no plans to until Epic. There's nothing wrong with the (incredibly passive) Aegis of Shielding that this character has -- the plan is to run around like a madman anyway, which is a good thing for a swordmage to do -- and having more hit points and healing surges is never a bad plan. Swordmage saves two feats, as well, and that's very useful. Being able to do the basic character trick earlier in your career is always nice.

Really, if there's a decent swordmage 15 daily and 23 encounter in Arcane Power, I'd just as soon stick with the hybrid.

Well, true, I guess. Still, I would think something like Cleric would be a better multiclass for power selection for a Wizard, given your already plentiful array of area damage powers.

Also, I wonder what the Half-Elf Bard version of this would look like. Thunderwave dilettante (or just Arcane Initiate if you don't want it at-will), Student of the Sword, Polearm Momentum, Combat Virtuoso, possibly Polearm Gamble & Heavy Blade Opportunity...
so... not to spoil the fun but.., how are you getting the polearm momentum feat without meeting the fighter prereq.?
so... not to spoil the fun but.., how are you getting the polearm momentum feat without meeting the fighter prereq.?

He takes battle awareness (fighter mc).
oh... I see he's using the hybrid rules...
Battle Awareness isn't hybrid, standard MC with feat from MP.
As you use your implement glaive on thunderwave, you will wisely knock your opponents back two squares, triggering polearm momentum, and leaving them prone. Towards the end of your career, you will knock them back more like 10 squares...

There's one thing I don't quite understand:
  • You don't add a weapon's proficiency bonus to implement attacks.
  • You don't add a weapons damage die to implement attacks.

But you do add the polearm weapon group type to implement attacks... Ehh...

Hypothetically, if you were using a non-magical Execution Axe as an implement, would your implement attacks also be brutal 2 and high crit?

I thought only the magical enhancement properties were added to implement attacks with weapons.

From MP:
Polearm Momentum
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Wis 15, fighter
Benefit: Whenever you use a polearm or a spear
attack
to push or slide a target 2 or more squares,
you can also knock that target prone at the end of the
forced movement.

(my emphasis)
Does Thunderwave actually qualify as a "polearm or a spear attack" even though the implement requirement is "Heavy Blade" and the weapon never even touches the target?

If this is true, weapons like the Khopesh, Fullblade, Spiked Chain and Glaive are much better than many implements. Even without having any magical properties. (A Sorcerer with a Khopesh or a SM with a Spiked Chain seems like tasty cheeses, for example.)
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
Why Booming Blade? I'd rather go with Sword Burst + Arcane Admixture: Thunder.

Close Burst 3, enemy only.
This build is AWESOME!!! I'm playing it right now, but I'm using a CUNNING Glaive. Oooh, baby!
Why Booming Blade? I'd rather go with Sword Burst + Arcane Admixture: Thunder. Close Burst 3, enemy only.


Close burst 4 when combined with both Enlarge Spell and Resounding Thunder. I'm currently playing a stormsoul genasi assaultmage who plans to (eventually) abuse this combination with HBO - AO for close burst 4? Yes, please!
Why Booming Blade? I'd rather go with Sword Burst + Arcane Admixture: Thunder. Close Burst 3, enemy only.


Close burst 4 when combined with both Enlarge Spell and Resounding Thunder. I'm currently playing a stormsoul genasi assaultmage who plans to (eventually) abuse this combination with HBO - AO for close burst 4? Yes, please!


Sword Burst doesn't work with HBO; it doesn't have the weapon keyword.  Booming Blade does.
just wanted to say how annoyed I am at this find. my wizard is level 5 and i haave been trying to  figure out for months how to get him to knock things prone with his tunderwave at-will and here you guys just do it by second level. man that ain't right
This looks really cool, but I had a few questions.

First, is knocking enemies prone worth dumping all those points into DEX and STR?

For a DM that won't violate a mark, do you think that this build has enough HP to stay up?

Why use an orb?  Don't you need both hands to wield the glaive?

I really like the concept, but don't have experience with hybrids or controllers.  
Thanks!


 
Hi everyone, i will also play a similar build to this in a new campaign. I guess i'll make a wizard/leader hybrid, cause the new group needs additional control and healing.

I will use arcane implement proficiency to use a glaive as implement. Can i use a glaive as implement with arcane implement proficiency, if i'm not proficient with the base weapon? Sure, i dont get proficiency bonus to basic attacks, but i dont plan on doing so anyway.

@Ex-Death: 1. Well, its like adding insult to injury. Withough mark of storms, no other class can knock areas prone at-will, with just 2-3 feats (and some stat investments). For example, Fighters can "only" do this to one enemy per attack.

2. Regarding the mark, you shouldnt play this build as primary defender. You probably shouldnt play swordmage as primary defender in any case. I guess that it works very good as secondary defender, to defend squishies, when the main tank is busy. All defenders are melee controllers of sorts, you just sacrifice durability in favor of control. Once your far enough, you can deny whole groups of enemies their action, if you get to daze them after the push. Or push them into a damage zone (like wall of fire) you created yourself.

3. Orb: Compared to other implement masteries, orb is one of the best on high levels. Allows you to lock down solos for an additional round, if you stack save penalties. But on heroic its not really useless. Using an embodient hand familiar or a battle harness, you can sheathe and draw items as free actions. So you as free action, you hold the glaive with only 1 hand (or stow it), draw the orb to use its power, stow it again and draw glaive. I think the "action" how to hold a weapon is not detailed, but it should be free.

Want anime-style Power cards? Then try the Touhou Power Cards!

I am building an 11th level Genasi "thunderglaver" wizard|swordmage with the new LFR rules.  What feats and magic items would you take to make this build.

Thanks!
As you use your implement glaive on thunderwave, you will wisely knock your opponents back two squares, triggering polearm momentum, and leaving them prone. Towards the end of your career, you will knock them back more like 10 squares...

There's one thing I don't quite understand:
  • You don't add a weapon's proficiency bonus to implement attacks.
  • You don't add a weapons damage die to implement attacks.
But you do add the polearm weapon group type to implement attacks... Ehh... Hypothetically, if you were using a non-magical Execution Axe as an implement, would your implement attacks also be brutal 2 and high crit? I thought only the magical enhancement properties were added to implement attacks with weapons. From MP:
Polearm Momentum Prerequisites: Dex 15, Wis 15, fighter Benefit: Whenever you use a polearm or a spear attack to push or slide a target 2 or more squares, you can also knock that target prone at the end of the forced movement.

(my emphasis) Does Thunderwave actually qualify as a "polearm or a spear attack" even though the implement requirement is "Heavy Blade" and the weapon never even touches the target? If this is true, weapons like the Khopesh, Fullblade, Spiked Chain and Glaive are much better than many implements. Even without having any magical properties. (A Sorcerer with a Khopesh or a SM with a Spiked Chain seems like tasty cheeses, for example.)




I know this is a terrible thread necro but was this question ever answered? Does using a glaive as the implement when casting thunderwave count as making a polearm or spear attack?


I know this is a terrible thread necro but was this question ever answered? Does using a glaive as the implement when casting thunderwave count as making a polearm or spear attack?



Polearm Momentum does not specify a melee or weapon attack, so using a qualifying weapon as an implement counts.