Best avenger weapon?

63 posts / 0 new
Last post
Ok, so Im building a deva avenger wis/int. My stats will be 18 wis 18 int with my terciarys up for grabs. The only two feats I know I have to have are

1) RRoT
2) Weapon proficency X

I dont know other than those what I need, and I dont know what weapon is best for them. The three weapons on the list are

Full blade
Executioners axe
Mordekan

At first level I will use a great axe but after that I want to use something with a little more punch. Or would more armor be better (take improved armor of faith or leather.)

Fullblade
Pro
+3 prof
High crit
Works on sunblade
Iconic

Con
Not brutal

Executioners axe
Pro
Brutal 2 + crit dice=awsome
High crit

Con
Basicaly has to be a jagged weapon
+2 prof

Mordekan
Pro
2d6 b1 is the highest DPR of any of these weapons other than maby fullblade
B1 on crit dice
Pro can be a crusaiders weapon

Con
+2 prof

Im leaning to mordekan but all 3 seem so balanced against each other I dont know which one is best.
Mordenkrad can't be jagged, and if you're (I assume) having issues with getting the Con to pick up Axe Mastery, you sure won't manage Bludgeon Mastery. Missing out on that 19-20 crit range at Epic seems like a mistake.
Mordenkrad can't be jagged, and if you're (I assume) having issues with getting the Con to pick up Axe Mastery, you sure won't manage Bludgeon Mastery. Missing out on that 19-20 crit range at Epic seems like a mistake.

The best way to get high crit is to get either jagged or take Radiant servant or the student path that gives you 18-20 crit range on radiant powers.

The feat masteries are rather lack luster because they require you to gimp your build.

Also mordekan would have to be a crusaiders weapon basicaly not a jagged one if you look its not under the mord.
I ran numbers in another avenger thread. Honestly, your best bet for a weapon may be a scourge. Carry two of them. It is high-crit and offhand. You can than qualify for all of the two-weapon feats like the new one that gives you a free basic attack if you crit. This is pretty nice for Avengers. Plus, you can actually qualify for flail mastery without unreasonable investment. This lets you get bloodiron weapons. Remember the Avenger gets +3 AC with armor of faith when in light armor without a shield. The feat gives you an additional +1 per tier. You really don't need to max DEX to have good AC. 19 STR and 19 DEX is doable. If you really insist on going INT as your secondary stat then you are actually going to take a damage hit, even with a jagged weapon.

I'd then go for the new avenger PP that gives another use of your channel divinity with action point usage. Pick up righteous rage of Tempus of course. :P

Unfortunately this is likely the best option for avengers right now. The other option is to do what I am going to propose to my DM. Duplicate all the dual wield feats for two-handers. If this is reasonable, then pick up a greatspear because you can qualify for that mastery as well.

PHB2 is full of two-handed fighters. Yet there isn't a single feat for them. Instead there are multiple good feats for dual wielders. Again. So, unless you take feat design into your own hands play their game and carry two weapons.
Scourge is high crit? Maybe you got the light pick mixed up with the scourge. The light war pick is indeed off hand high crit. Or maybe I'm missing something.

I think for dual wielding (unfortunately that's the high damage dealer) you want any high crit weapon. The Waraxe and Deadly Axe are great if you go Two Blade Warrior. I'd go Bloodiron or Rending Axe. With Rending Axe you'll get two extra attacks everytime you crit with Two Weapon Opening. Bloodiron gives critical damage next round plus an attack from Two Weapon Opening. So it's a matter of finding out if your critical damage is higher than your basic melee.

Unveiled Visage, an Avenger PP, allows you to get back a Channel Divinty power when you spend an AP. Punisher of the Gods gives you an AP when you crit. With those combined you can stab faces with the best of them. Even without Punisher of the Gods, Unveiled Visage is awesome. Two RRoT's every other encounter is solid. Unveiled Visage also lets you fly when you charge. Combining two of the coolest things about DnD is win.

If you don't want to dual wield I agree with SmCaudata's house rule that makes two weapon feats apply to two handers. It's probably what I'm going to end up doing. The two weapon disparity is lame. For 2handers I'd go Execution Axe, unless you can get Heavy Blade Mastery with the Fullblade. I think since you're inherently more accurate than other classes, the +2 prof hurts you less.
The problem with the Avenger is their reliance on WIS... which means your best bet for a weapon is an STR/WIS polearm...

That way you can go for the polearm feats... I would go for a Greatspear!
Scourge is high crit? Maybe you got the light pick mixed up with the scourge. The light war pick is indeed off hand high crit. Or maybe I'm missing something.

It has been off-hand and high-crit for the last two updates of the compendium (which is as long as I have been a subscriber.) Since it has stayed that way for a couple months I figured it was intentional. I cannot be the only one that has noticed it.

Compared to other weapon classes, making the scourge high-crit really doesn't cause any problems. It is only 1 point per [w] more damage than the light war pick. I suppose you could make it a superior if since it is basically a light pick with an extra 1 damage. I'd say you could just take the pick, but the 21 STR is out of reach for an avenger unless you totally neglect your dex or int, which may be doable.
The problem with the Avenger is their reliance on WIS... which means your best bet for a weapon is an STR/WIS polearm...

That way you can go for the polearm feats... I would go for a Greatspear!

Spear mastery requires the same 19 STR and DEX that flails require. The greatspear is not high crit. Lastly, it is only a 1d10 +3 without high crit. The greatspear actually does okay damage wise in the end when compared directly to a 1d8 high crit weapon except it falls very far behind when all of the two-weapon fighting feats get figured in.
It has been off-hand and high-crit for the last two updates of the compendium (which is as long as I have been a subscriber.) Since it has stayed that way for a couple months I figured it was intentional. I cannot be the only one that has noticed it.

Compared to other weapon classes, making the scourge high-crit really doesn't cause any problems. It is only 1 point per [w] more damage than the light war pick. I suppose you could make it a superior if since it is basically a light pick with an extra 1 damage. I'd say you could just take the pick, but the 21 STR is out of reach for an avenger unless you totally neglect your dex or int, which may be doable.

AV doesn't have it high crit, so that's what I was going by. Spending in Dex at creation and then ignoring it works fine. With Leather and Improved Armor of Faith your AC remains decent. Of course you're spending feats to do this though.
Spear mastery requires the same 19 STR and DEX that flails require. The greatspear is not high crit. Lastly, it is only a 1d10 +3 without high crit. The greatspear actually does okay damage wise in the end when compared directly to a 1d8 high crit weapon except it falls very far behind when all of the two-weapon fighting feats get figured in.

However a Greatspear is also a Polearm... so you can get Polearm Gamble (STR:15/WIS:15)... besides which, with 18 INT/WIS (which the OP wants) you will never be able to get any of the Epic tier feats for weapons, as you will not have the stat points to put into CON or DEX, as-well-as the needed STR score.

Polearm Gamble is the best Paragon feat you can hope for... and pretty good for the Avenger... it helps keep enemies away!
Fancy that, Undone needing advise for a character. Tempest Fighter get boring all of a sudden with marked scourge nerf? :p
Best weapon for an avenger? Whatever catches your fancy. This is a roleplaying game.

Best deity to worship for an avenger? Whoever catches your fancy. This is a roleplaying game.

-SYB
Best weapon for an avenger? Whatever catches your fancy. This is a roleplaying game.

Best deity to worship for an avenger? Whoever catches your fancy. This is a roleplaying game.

-SYB

True, although the converse of that would be, this is the optimization forum.
True, although the converse of that would be, this is the optimization forum.

Then to that I say why are you playing an Avenger? I thought this board determined that there was only 1 striker, and everything else was suboptimal.

So, tip of the day.
REROLL A RANGER!
Then to that I say why are you playing an Avenger? I thought this board determined that there was only 1 striker, and everything else was suboptimal.

So, tip of the day.
REROLL A RANGER!

Please do not troll someone with my favored class. Please.

Additionally, other Strikers have their place. Rogues have a great mix of abilities, and Warlock debuffs are second only to the Wizard. Avengers and Barbarians also show great promise, and they will have their place. Rangers are the pure damage Striker.

The Jagged weapon sounds like the best option at the moment, and your crit rate should be such that Axes will be favored. The Execution Axe seems to win the contest for me. I'll be back... with numbers!
Please do not troll someone with my favored class. Please.

... Seriously?
... Seriously?

Seriously.

I don't like trolling in general, and much less when it's with something I like.

Now, quit being a jerk. If you're not gonna contribute something, just keep your comments to yourself.
Seriously.

I don't like trolling in general, and much less when it's with something I like.

Now, quit being a jerk. If you're not gonna contribute something, just keep your comments to yourself.

Would it make you feel better if I changed my reroll statement to pre-nerfed Tempest Fighter instead of Ranger?

And technically my statement with reroll a Ranger was a suggestion and contribution.

And knowing Undone, this thread will disappear if / when Righteous Rage gets errata since that's what he's basing his entire character concept around.
Would it make you feel better if I changed my reroll statement to pre-nerfed Tempest Fighter instead of Ranger?

You'd still be trolling him, though. (Unrelated: It was only a mild nerf, to be honest).

I don't know what he did to you for you to do troll him, but let it lie. Take the moral high ground, man.

I will post numbers here for Execution Axe v. Fullblade shortly.
You'd still be trolling him, though. (Unrelated: It was only a mild nerf, to be honest).

I don't know what he did to you for you to do troll him, but let it lie. Take the moral high ground, man.

Boo, you are no fun.
And knowing Undone, this thread will disappear if / when Righteous Rage gets errata since that's what he's basing his entire character concept around.

QFT

-SYB
Execution Axe. Since Avengers get two rolls with OoE the +2 prof won't hurt as much, and two rolls allow you to take advantage of high crit that much better.
It'll be harder to qualify for feats for the Execution Axe than the Fullblade because the Fullblade would use Dex and Wis along with Str for feats, rather than just Str and Con. But, I there are enough feats out there that you won't be starved.
One-half of the tabletop gaming news podcast Going Last Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.
Execution Axe. Since Avengers get two rolls with OoE the +2 prof won't hurt as much, and two rolls allow you to take advantage of high crit that much better.

Fullblade also has high crit I think? I think you mean brutal, since then the execution axe has a higher min. damage than the fullblade.

So just looking at the weapons alone you are looking at higher attack vs higher min. damage.
Gauntlets of Destruction could diminish the superiority of execution axe over fullblade for avengers.
These gauntlets make any weapon brutal 1.

(I dream of using a vorpal falchion with gauntlets of destruction: 33% of getting 4s, and then rolling more d4 with 33% of... you know how it ends)
Why not an Urgrosh? +2 prof, d12 & defensive...
Execution Axe. Since Avengers get two rolls with OoE the +2 prof won't hurt as much, and two rolls allow you to take advantage of high crit that much better.
It'll be harder to qualify for feats for the Execution Axe than the Fullblade because the Fullblade would use Dex and Wis along with Str for feats, rather than just Str and Con. But, I there are enough feats out there that you won't be starved.

No need; Jagged takes care of the crit chance (you're not getting any Weapon Mastery feat with an Int-based Avenger anyway), and there are no other feats for Axes. The fullblade does have Heavy Blade Opportunity, but that would stretch the stats too thin IMHO.

@Toshihito: Sorry for being no fun. You are correct in your assessment, though; since weapon feats are basically out of the question, basic stats are what are being looked at here.

@The_Storyteller: You want Gauntlets of Destruction as a Execution Axe user anyway; the non-weapon crit dice aren't affected by Brutal 2. It does diminish the Execution Axe's advantage, though. I'll have to run numbers to see if the Avenger's increased hit rate would still make the Execution Axe a better choice.

Unfortunately, since Heavy Blade Mastery is out of the question, a Vorpal Falchion would lag behind the other two choices, due to a large reduction in critical rate. Maybe for Dex Avengers. Maybe.
Unfortunately, since Heavy Blade Mastery is out of the question, a Vorpal Falchion would lag behind the other two choices, due to a large reduction in critical rate. Maybe for Dex Avengers. Maybe.

I think it might be out of the picture for the Dex Avenger as well. With the double 18's you are really pigeon holed for feats. You only have 4 points to spend on other stats, so you *could* start with a 13 strength but no idea where you are going to get the other 8 points of strength to dump into it.

Personally, i'm not a fan builds where I have to buy 2 16's. It really depends on the character I am building.

Regarding the two weapons, I personally believe the Fullblade is better just on the principle I like +3 weapons. In my eyes hitting more often > better damage.
@The_Storyteller: You want Gauntlets of Destruction as a Execution Axe user anyway; the non-weapon crit dice aren't affected by Brutal 2. It does diminish the Execution Axe's advantage, though. I'll have to run numbers to see if the Avenger's increased hit rate would still make the Execution Axe a better choice.

I'm anxious to see the results of your math

Don't forget to add the +3 atk roll bonus from Weapon Expertise at epic calculations.

I would like to see
Jagged Fullblade+Gauntlets of Destruction vs Jagged Execution axe.

Last time a played with my human avenger I critted 4 times :D , 2 in the same battle and one of them was with the daily aspect of might (3[W]). Avengers are super fun to play. I never... never missed an encounter or daily with him (lv2: like 10 encounters). Great synergy with taclords and fighters. I'm planning on MC swordmage for some awesome strikerish powers like Bane Blade and Quicksilver Blade.
Pursuit Avengers really want to be using two weapons because of Two Weapon Opening. It's retarded but it's true. WotC keeps force feeding two weapon feats. With stuff like Student of Caiphon and Unveiled Visage it means you'll be critically hitting a lot which means more attacks. Even without RRoT, Two Weapon Opening is a key feat. I suppose a Retribution Avenger wants two weapons too, but you need Dex 13 to get TWF, which is the prereq for Two Weapon Opening.

I think it might be out of the picture for the Dex Avenger as well. With the double 18's you are really pigeon holed for feats. You only have 4 points to spend on other stats, so you *could* start with a 13 strength but no idea where you are going to get the other 8 points of strength to dump into it.

Personally, i'm not a fan builds where I have to buy 2 16's. It really depends on the character I am building.

Regarding the two weapons, I personally believe the Fullblade is better just on the principle I like +3 weapons. In my eyes hitting more often > better damage.

There's nothing about the Avenger that forces you to buy two 16's. Really you can easily be awesome with a 16 post racial in your main stat.

You don't need to max Dex (or Int for that matter) in order to have a decent AC. Leather and Improved Armor of Faith keep your AC decent. This means you can devote stat points to Str and Wis only if you desire. Also, starting with a 16 (even post racial) in a stat means very little when you're rolling 2d20 per attack. It might actually be better (from a point cost standpoint), but I'm not sure how to prove that mathematically. At any rate, while I'm not sure doing this is best, I do know that it's a solid option. Avengers corner the market regarding accuracy. In other words, there is nothing normal about an Avenger relative to the other classes. The rules regarding stat buys change with this class due to rolling 2d20 for attacks.
I really don't think there's a contest if you're an Isolating (int-based) Avenger: Student of Caiphon, Bloodiron Execution Axe. Remember, your at-will of choice already has the Radiant keyword. I ran the numbers in another thread somewhere even assuming that you only crit on 20s in epic; the execution axe was the winner in all three tiers of play. Gauntlets of destruction might bring the fullblade up a small amount, but probably not enough to make it pull ahead in the tiers of play where you actually have access to it. If you have a crit rate of 27.75% there's just no way a mordenkrad can compete.

Edit: here's the other thread
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18052980#post18052980
That's true; Student of Caiphon and Two-Weapon Opening make for a quite hilarious combination, especially if your main hand weapon is a Scimitar. But, in the meantime, I think I'll stick to big two-handers for now. I will test out the Fullblade and the Execution Axe shortly; for now, I have to look busy. :P
I'm not sure why anyone would even consider a weapon that isn't high crit. This eliminates Mordenkrad immediately.
I really don't think there's a contest if you're an Isolating (int-based) Avenger: Student of Caiphon, Bloodiron Execution Axe. Remember, your at-will of choice already has the Radiant keyword. I ran the numbers in another thread somewhere even assuming that you only crit on 20s in epic; the execution axe was the winner in all three tiers of play. Gauntlets of destruction might bring the fullblade up a small amount, but probably not enough to make it pull ahead in the tiers of play where you actually have access to it. If you have a crit rate of 27.75% there's just no way a mordenkrad can compete.

Ah, even better; someone ran the numbers already :D. I didn't know the Avenger had a Radiant at-will. That is made of glorious win for Avengers, but I think I'd err on the side of caution and pick up a radiant Execution Axe. This allows you to pick the power you want and still have the madness of Caiphon on your side. I'd reconsider the dual-18 array, though; the Avenger seems to be slightly MAD, and putting a couple points in other stats may do some good.
That's true; Student of Caiphon and Two-Weapon Opening make for a quite hilarious combination, especially if your main hand weapon is a Scimitar. But, in the meantime, I think I'll stick to big two-handers for now. I will test out the Fullblade and the Execution Axe shortly; for now, I have to look busy.

I don't mean to discount two handers. I'm a fan of the two handers (I also like two weapons too). I am just sick of all these two weapon feats.

Maybe Divine Power and/or Martial Power 2 will change the disparity.
I think it has to be executioners axe because of rending weapons being the best weapon when you crit over 25% of the time, it seems really good

Then to that I say why are you playing an Avenger? I thought this board determined that there was only 1 striker, and everything else was suboptimal.

So, tip of the day....

On the contrary burst damage and DPR are two totaly differant things. The avenger has a huge advantage in burst damage which can be better than DPR. (or no one would ever take pit fighter) Im trying to optimize for a burst character that doesnt require any daily powers or action points (not that they cant be added)

Fancy that, Undone needing advise for a character. Tempest Fighter get boring all of a sudden with marked scourge nerf? :p

Not at all, I hadnt gotten to get marked scourge yet, and losing a measly 4/7 damage at paragon isnt the end of the world.
Ah, even better; someone ran the numbers already :D. I didn't know the Avenger had a Radiant at-will. That is made of glorious win for Avengers, but I think I'd err on the side of caution and pick up a radiant Execution Axe. This allows you to pick the power you want and still have the madness of Caiphon on your side. I'd reconsider the dual-18 array, though; the Avenger seems to be slightly MAD, and putting a couple points in other stats may do some good.

The contribution from Bloodiron is absolutely massive; at level 11 it's about 15-20% of your damage with the radiant at-will as a Caiphonite. It will of course be hard to truly say until we see a wider suite of Avenger powers, but I think even in a sea of non-radiant encounter and daily powers you may want to use Bloodiron as your primary weapon and keep a -1 enh radiant weapon in your pocket for your non at-wills.

As for the MADness, I could see this being the case for a dex avenger; for them it might actually be worthwhile to get a fullblade or even a light blade for weapon mastery (they have no radiant at-will). They'd also most likely want some charging feats that require str and/or con.

But for an int avenger, spending points for hide armor isn't worth it (you have high enough AC as it is, and being hit by attacks actually INCREASES your damage, so you are basically the least squishy class in the game). And you can't get enough str/con to get axe feats without hurting your AC and lowering your retribution damage.
There's nothing about the Avenger that forces you to buy two 16's. Really you can easily be awesome with a 16 post racial in your main stat.

I know. I was just referring to the OP for a first where he states that he is buying 2 16's to have 2 18 stats after racial mods.
Well, I promised you numbers, and here they are:

Avenger/Student of Caiphon/Demigod:
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 12, Int 28, Wis 28, Cha 15

Feats:
Devastating Critical
Pact Initiate
Weapon Expertise (heavy blades)
Weapon Focus (heavy blades)
Weapon Proficiency (fullblade)

Gear:
+6 bloodiron fullblade
Gauntlets of destruction
Iron armbands of power +6
War ring

Damage Bonus Sources:
+9 (Wisdom)
+6 enhancement (+6 fullblade)
+3 feat (Weapon Focus)
+6 item (iron armbands of power +6)

DPR with Fullblade: (1-[1-0.55]2)*(38) + (1-[1-0.15]2)*(186) = 81.92 DPR

DPR with Execution Axe: (1-[1-0.50]2)*(39) + (1-[1-0.15]2)*(189) = 81.70 DPR

...So, it's basically a wash, with an ever-so-slight edge for the Fullblade.
+6 bloodiron fullblade

Cant executioners axe do way better than blood iron. Heck cant full blade?

Both can use reckless, both can use blood claw, but only the executioners axe can use rending (HUGE with RRoT)

Heck Rending has a 5% chance of attacking 3 times on any given attack and a 27.5 chance of attacking three times with RRoT. Doesnt this do a crap ton more than say, blood iron O.o which does nearly nothing.

Rending seems like a huge upswing for executioners axe, and sunblade for the full blade.
Well, I promised you numbers, and here they are:

Avenger/Student of Caiphon/Demigod:
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 12, Int 28, Wis 28, Cha 15

Feats:
Devastating Critical
Pact Initiate
Weapon Expertise (heavy blades)
Weapon Focus (heavy blades)
Weapon Proficiency (fullblade)

Gear:
+6 bloodiron fullblade
Gauntlets of destruction
Iron armbands of power +6
War ring

Damage Bonus Sources:
+9 (Wisdom)
+6 enhancement (+6 fullblade)
+3 feat (Weapon Focus)
+6 item (iron armbands of power +6)

DPR with Fullblade: (1-[1-0.55]2)*(38) + (1-[1-0.15]2)*(186) = 81.92 DPR

DPR with Execution Axe: (1-[1-0.50]2)*(39) + (1-[1-0.15]2)*(189) = 81.70 DPR

...So, it's basically a wash, with an ever-so-slight edge for the Fullblade.

I think with the advent of weapon expertise, assuming you need an 11 to hit is a bit low, but YMMV I suppose. I'm assuming level 30 is where you're doing the calc:

+9 wis
+2 prof
+3 weapon expertise
+15 1/2 level
+6 enh

+35 vs AC

A "normal" level 30 monster has 44 AC, so even without CA you're hitting on a nine. Of course there are no non-elite level 30s, but given that scaling is relatively smooth now I would expect that you'll be hitting on a 9 normally at least until mid-epic tier.

Edit: also, power attack! Probably actually worth using as an Avenger. :P So if we assume power attack and the baseline 60% to hit cancel out, that works out to be slightly more in favor of the fullblade; (+9*.75 vs +9*.7975) = .43 increase in DPR delta.
Cant executioners axe do way better than blood iron. Heck cant full blade?

Both can use reckless, both can use blood claw, but only the executioners axe can use rending (HUGE with RRoT)

Heck Rending has a 5% chance of attacking 3 times on any given attack and a 27.5 chance of attacking three times with RRoT. Doesnt this do a crap ton more than say, blood iron O.o which does nearly nothing.

Rending seems like a huge upswing for executioners axe, and sunblade for the full blade.

Rending gives an extra MBA on a crit. Bloodiron gives an extra 2*(6d10+d10)+d12 (reroll 1s, and reroll 2s on the d12 if it's an executioner's axe). That is 91 expected damage (91.5 with an execution axe), which is almost certainly more than an MBA does.