Sooo, has it happened yet?

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Before 4th came out there was a discussion titled something to the effect of "how long until they build a 4E Pun-pun?" in which many of the pre-releace haters said it would happen quite soon, and others said it woujld be a while before enuff loop-wholes could be gathered to creat such a beast.

So my question to you is this; has it happened, and if not what is the closes thing currently existing?
Before 4th came out there was a discussion titled something to the effect of "how long until they build a 4E Pun-pun?" in which many of the pre-releace haters said it would happen quite soon, and others said it woujld be a while before enuff loop-wholes could be gathered to creat such a beast.

So my question to you is this; has it happened, and if not what is the closes thing currently existing?

Pun-Pun isn't quite here yet, but the ranger PP called Horisont Walker gives you your action point back when you use it for a move action, and the Warlord Epic destiny Warmaster allows you to use however many action points you want per encounter, and allows an ally to take an extra action every time you do. The result is that your allies can all get infinite actions, and the warlord gets infinite move actions. I supose just for good measure you should optimize initiative to so nothing bad happens before you and your ally depopulates the planet, but that's just details.
Can you spend more than one action point per turn? You might get the action point back, but I don't think you can use another? And does it say you don't loose it, or that you don't loose it and you can still use it this encounter? It might just mean you can use your action point in the next encounter.

Always a GM, never a player (not really but sometimes feels like it).

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Can you spend more than one action point per turn? You might get the action point back, but I don't think you can use another? And does it say you don't loose it, or that you don't loose it and you can still use it this encounter? It might just mean you can use your action point in the next encounter.

As I said the Warmaster ability allows you to use more than one AP per encounter. Otherwise the Combo would be rather underwhelming.
So Warmaster "Shock and Awe" (24th Level) would need to be errata'd: "Whenever you spend an action point to take an extra STANDARD action."
and the problem is solved, no?
So Warmaster "Shock and Awe" (24th Level) would need to be errata'd: "Whenever you spend an action point to take an extra STANDARD action."
and the problem is solved, no?

Monsters that have more than one action point can use them all in the same encounter. They all have the caveat that they can't use more than one action point per round. This would simply need to be added to the Warmaster's Tactical Genius feature.

Tactical Genius (30th level): During an encounter,
you can spend as many of your action points as
you want. You can only use one action point per round.

Or something like that.
So Warmaster "Shock and Awe" (24th Level) would need to be errata'd: "Whenever you spend an action point to take an extra STANDARD action."
and the problem is solved, no?

If you wanted to remove this exploit your suggestion is one of the better ones I've seen. IMO the once-per-turn solution hametsuj and other suggest could actually makes the problem worse because effectively gives the warlord 2 move actions per turn and a bonus standard for one ally which is still to good, but not so ridicilously broken that it can't be used in a real game.

My prefered solution however is just to have the GM *****slap any player trying to use such a blatant exploit. Unlike with Demigod there is a crystal clear dividing line between ridicilously broken and reasonable, so the problem is really just theoretical. IMO there's no need to nerf legitimate uses of the Warmaster ability, in order to solve a problem that will never see play under any sane GM.
IMO there's no need to nerf legitimate uses of the Warmaster ability, in order to solve a problem that will never see play under any sane GM.

RPGA?

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It'll be fixed long before anybody reaches Epic (or Paragon I'd bet), considering they just released the level 4-7 mods.

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

RPGA?

4E RPGA expectations of DMs havev shifted enough that pimp-slapping in this manner won't (or shouldn't) be looked down upon.
4E RPGA expectations of DMs havev shifted enough that pimp-slapping in this manner won't (or shouldn't) be looked down upon.

RPGA's "DM Empowerment" doesn't extend to altering the rules of the game.
RPGA's "DM Empowerment" doesn't extend to altering the rules of the game.

But it DOES allow you to explain away blatant abuses in the wording. Warmaster is one thing, unstoppable genocidal juggernaut is another...
And it's an obvious problem that should have been taken care of and should have never seen print. The fact that a judge might be allowed to not let it into a real game is not an excuse.

This sort of nonsense will keep happening as long as the current "making the rules balanced is for sissies" mindset holds sway over WOTC, or whoever it is.
Actually, all they really need to do is Errata the Horizon Walker action point feature to state that you only get the extra action point for taking a move action once per round.

Problem solved.



But yeah, apart from the Apocalypse Twins there's no Pun-Puns yet. The Twins come close with their infinite actions, but they're not quite Pun-Pun level.
Actually, all they really need to do is Errata the Horizon Walker action point feature to state that you only get the extra action point for taking a move action once per round.

Problem solved.



But yeah, apart from the Apocalypse Twins there's no Pun-Puns yet. The Twins come close with their infinite actions, but they're not quite Pun-Pun level.

Not really. It should be more like 1/encounter. It won't matter under normal circumstances anyway.
Its very easy to fix, actually. You simply alter Horizon Walker, which is what is actually broken. Simply change its power to "If you have not spent an action point this encounter, you may make a move action as a free action. If you do, you count as having already expended an action point this encounter." This prevents all the abuse with the feature, preventing stuff like using it to heal yourself out of combat without spending healing surges, gaining AP-use triggered benefits every encounter, ect. in addition to preventing Warmaster cheese.

But yes, I'd say that the Warmaster/Horizon Walker cheese is pretty close to Pun-Pun; you can kill anything in the game with it fairly trivially. Though to be fair Demigod could kill anything in the game as well previously via DM cheese; this simply allows you to kill everything you can get to with actions and kill with attacks.
And it's an obvious problem

Obvious? The OP didn't know about it. Who decides if a problem is obvious? The last guy to double check interactions might have missed it, because the wording was changed before it got sent to the printers, and after Templating. Or he did see it and didn't correlate the two effects. Some people don't.

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RPGA's "DM Empowerment" doesn't extend to altering the rules of the game.

I don't know, I've heard a person or three that know something about something saying something along the lines of "fun at the table is more important than similarity of experience" aka not only is every table an island, but the way rules are arbitrated don't have to be in the same ballpark between two different tables as long as each table had FUN.
Technically the real trick to Pun-Pun was that he had infinite everything at like level 6. There's nothing like that yet, and a lot more abilities are verboten in 4e than were in 3e, so there's less of a chance something like Pun-Pun will come together.

Of course, there have been quite a few infinite combos in 4e already...
Infinities we've seen thus far(list to be expanded as people bring up stuff I forgot):
-Blade Cascade(now errataed)
-Infinite strikes on an opportunity attack(Twin Strike+HBO+Two-weapon Flurry+??)
-Demigod madness, especially using Elven Accuracy.
Possible applications include: infinite damage, crits on every attack
-Infinite Move - Horizon Walker+Warmaster
-Infinite Standard Actions - Horizon Walker+Warmaster
-Infinite exchange of Blows(that sweet barbarian power that takes you out of combat and has you just keep hitting a creature til one of you is dead).

Other punpunesque abilities:
-Can not die(fully intended, variety of methods).

In some ways pun-pun was a tour de force of the loopholes that cropped up over the course of 3.5e, enabled by a specific overpowered ability combined with some other overpowered abilities.

Really, we aren't looking for a 4e pun-pun(4e is structured such that it's unlikely the necessary abilities will ever exist). The real standard is the "ascended character," a character that we effectively accomplished in 3.5e with just the core books.

I suggest that we create the "TO Paragon" build, a build that represents the maximum potential TO can unlock in a character regarding infinities and nigh-infinities, and keep it updated as we progress through more splatbooks.
-Infinite exchange of Blows(that sweet barbarian power that takes you out of combat and has you just keep hitting a creature til one of you is dead).

Doesn't count... either one of you could choose to stop at any time,

Effect: After the attack, you can allow the target to make a
melee basic attack against you as a free action. If the
target makes that attack, you can make a melee basic attack against it as a free action. You can repeat this effect until the target chooses not to make the attack.

Most of the truely "game breaking" abilities are fully intentional Level 30 Epic Destiny Capstones
Doesn't count... either one of you could choose to stop at any time,

Well, it's still useful TO fodder. One of the TO tricks of the trade is converting a number of one sort into another sort. Often this meant finding a way to deal infinite damage to yourself, then turning that infinite damage either against a foe or inverting the damage into healing/temp hp, etc(see Omniscificer)

So while not 'broken' itself, this ability can become an 'engine' for the production of arbitrary numbers.

Already someone has used this very trick to charge a party's set of Lucklender weapons with nigh-infinite charges each day.
Well, it's still useful TO fodder. One of the TO tricks of the trade is converting a number of one sort into another sort. Often this meant finding a way to deal infinite damage to yourself, then turning that infinite damage either against a foe or inverting the damage into healing/temp hp, etc(see Omniscificer)

So while not 'broken' itself, this ability can become an 'engine' for the production of arbitrary numbers.

Already someone has used this very trick to charge a party's set of Lucklender weapons with nigh-infinite charges each day.

The thing is though, if the foe is smart enough to realise it can't win this exchange of blows, it'll just stop. And most monsters that aren't smart enough to realise this will stop when they're bloodied and try to flee.


It's a potentially infinite exchange of attacks until one of you goes down, but since either one can choose to pull out whenever they want it's not really an issue.
...actually, I can kinda see what's being done... From the sound of it, you want to attack an ally to make sure you get the combo off. (basically a "infinite attacks + ???? = Profit!" situation)
...actually, I can kinda see what's being done... From the sound of it, you want to attack an ally to make sure you get the combo off. (basically a "infinite attacks + ???? = Profit!" situation)

The thing is though, you still don't get infinite attacks because eventually one of you will die.
The thing is though, you still don't get infinite attacks because eventually one of you will die.

There are ways around that minor problem, such as Legendary Generals or Deathless Frenzy.
Deathless Frenzy doesn't get around the negative bloodied value. You hit your negative bloodied value, you die. End of story.

Unyielding Company is the only thing that subverts that, but as a Level 30 Epic Path feature, i'd expect it to break some rules. Even if you do stack Deathless Frenzy and Unyielding Company to make yourself immortal for a short while, the monster you're fighting is eventually going to decide to just not attack you anymore.


I suppose technically you could combine a pair of Barbarians both using Deathless Frenzy with Unyielding Company to get infinite attacks against each other, but i don't believe that's actually of any use to anyone, and i can't imagine any DM would let that happen anyway. "Ok, we attack each other an infinite number of times." isn't going to go down well with anyone.
Deathless Frenzy doesn't get around the negative bloodied value. You hit your negative bloodied value, you die. End of story.

I'm not sure you're right there. It's not 100% clear, but it does say you don't drop unconscious until you fail a death saving throw.
I'm not sure you're right there. It's not 100% clear, but it does say you don't drop unconscious until you fail a death saving throw.

Yeah, you don't drop unconscious. You just hit your negative bloodied value and die.

It doesn't say it overrides the negative bloodied value death, thus it does not. It just overrides the unconsciousness at 0 HP.
Of course, if you have Soulforged armor, that doesn't matter, because you can't die until the end of your next turn.

So, it goes like this:

A) Infinite attacks.
+
B) Lucklender weapon's.
+
C) Deathless Frenzy.
+
D) Soulforged Armors.
+
E) ????
=
F) PROFIT!
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Yeah, you don't drop unconscious. You just hit your negative bloodied value and die.

It doesn't say it overrides the negative bloodied value death, thus it does not. It just overrides the unconsciousness at 0 HP.

That's your opinion, as I said I don't think it's very clear.
As i said, although it can technically be used to get infinite attacks, eventually (probably sooner rather than later) the monster is going to decide he's sick of getting his ass whooped and will stop, and bam, combo over.

And as i also said, if you try it on an ally who goes along with the infinite attacks, i cannot see any sane DM anywhere saying O.K. to the line "We attack each other an infinite number of times."
Oberoni fallacy, man. Just because a DM can fix it doesn't mean it's not broken. It should be modified so that it DOES have a hard cap or some other limit.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Oberoni fallacy, man. Just because a DM can fix it doesn't mean it's not broken. It should be modified so that it DOES have a hard cap or some other limit.

Why? As far as i'm aware there's actually no advantage to doing infinite damage to your ally anyway.


Feel free to do infinite damage to your ally, all you'll end up doing is putting both of you at 1 HP.
....Aaaaaaaand granting us a nigh-unlimited bonus to AB which the whole party will use across the day, making every attack that is not a 1 a hit.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
....Aaaaaaaand granting us a nigh-unlimited bonus to AB which the whole party will use across the day, making every attack that is not a 1 a hit.

Really? What does that?
Lucklender weapons, as mentioned above.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Ah, i see. So you can basically blow two daily abilities (and have a second character blow one too) at level 30 to gain an infinite attack bonus to one attack for each of you, at the additional cost of reducing both of you to 1 hit point.

Seriously? I'm really not seeing a huge issue with that. Reducing myself and an ally to 1 HP and blowing a total of 3 daily abilities across 2 people just so both of us can get a certain hit on our next attack? Yeah, i'm not seeing that as a good idea.

Plus, each Barbarian can only do it once per day.


--EDIT--

Oh i see, you gain a permanent bonus to attack rolls equal to the lucklender weapon's enhancement bonus. Hmm, yes that is rather overpowered, even for the high cost required to do it.

Frankly, all you really need to do is change the target from one creature to one enemy.


I also suspect this falls into the "Bag of Rats" zone of stupid combos.
Um, again, didn't the PHB explicitly rule against "bag of rats" type tricks?

WOTC seems quite intent on holding onto the crazy notion that such exploits should be slapped down by the DM.
Um, again, didn't the PHB explicitly rule against "bag of rats" type tricks?

WOTC seems quite intent on holding onto the crazy notion that such exploits should be slapped down by the DM.

A couple notes:
1. Theoretical Optimization proceeds under the assumption that there are DMs who would rather apply the 'rule of cool' than place limits on characters.
2. There really are DMs like this. I had one. In fact, he was also my Rifts GM. We ended up conquering the Megaverse(hint: do NOT teach human supremacists technology secrets from other dimensions). Don't try to tell me that this stuff can NEVER fly, because occasionally it will.
3. Again, Theoretical Optimization is THEORETICAL. Enough of the complaints that no DM would allow this. OF COURSE most DMs won't allow this! That's not the point!
4. As has already been cited, Oberoni Fallacy. Broken is broken, whether the exploit will see gameplay or not.

[edit] As far as the usefulness of trading blows, Lucklenders are only the most obvious and current method of taking advantage of the 'infinite blows' engine. This kind of thing is the bread and butter of TO. In fact, Curse of the Twin Princes already makes it possible to deal nigh-infinite damage to an enemy using this exploit, and there are indications from the Artificer playtest that artificers will make it relatively easy to turn engines like this into infinite damage output. More splatbooks will just make it worse.
The thing is though, there is a reason why a person is the DM, as opposed to a computer, and that is so said person can make judgement calls.

There may be DM's who go "Ok" when you say "I deal infinite damage." but the game is assuming a 'sensible' DM (and i use the term 'sensible' lightly).



Personally, while i agree this is broken, i think it falls into the same realm as the Demigod + Elf certain crit trick; ruleswise it's legal, but no sane DM will let it pass.



Remember, the rules are the tiles, the DM is the grout between the tiles that oozes into all the gaps and fills them up. If you take away the grout then all of a sudden your tiles are full of cracks and don't hold together very well. This is not a fault of the tiles, it's your silly fault for taking away the grout.
It's not the fault of the rules if certain theoretical combos produce utterly absurd results, it's your still fault for taking away the DM, who largely exists specifically to stop just that.

If the DM didn't need to make judgement calls, then we wouldn't need a DM, we could use a computer instead.

I'm not saying it will NEVER fly, i'm saying that in your standard game, it won't fly. If it does fly then hey, every now and then it'd be kind of fun.
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