How to Build A Nuclear Bomb

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First you obtain uranium-238 and then....

Just kidding. This build focuses on the all around killer wizard. His goal is to have huge damage spells that hit tons of people, produce lingering and highly debiliating effects (radiation) and do all this from near invincibility (AKA flying like a plane).

He really becomes a nuke at level 25, and then can do it multiple times a day at level 26, but he's still extremely effective once he's in paragon. NOTE: All wizards are weak during heroic. The basic goal is to try and keep him alive and kicking.

Eladrin is perfect for him because he is a wand mage (secondary orb mage), although elf is good as well. He need's a fully buffed int, and nearly fully buffed dex, and a decent wis, so unfortunatly, he suffers a bit from MADness.

Although the entire build is called the Nuke, my sample nuke will be called God-Killer, as he does everything a God does and then can actually damage them.

Thanks to TreantMonkLevel20 for the guide to Wizards because it was through his guide that I learned that Bolstering Blood pulses every time a creature moves with Blood Pulse up. Thanks also to Subedei who really got me thinking about how awesome Wizards really are.

Edit: As has been pointed out to me on the second page, the Bigby's Icy Hand trick does not work.

Races

Out of ****
Elf (****): +2 to Dex and Wis, two of the key abilities for this build. Wish it had a +2 to Int, but it's racial more than makes up for it.
Eladrin(****): +2 to Int and Dex, the two MOST vital abilities for this build. I think it's slightly better than Elf, but just slightly. The bonus skill is also great, as we will be saving a feat on either Stealth or Perception. I will be using the Eladrin for my build.
Githanki(***): +2 to Int is great, as is +2 to Con. Unfortunatly, we aren't going the staff route, so this is slightly wasted. Racial is decent as well.
Human(***): Humans gain an extra at will, and a +2 to Int. Not as good as Eladrin or Elf for this build.
Tiefling(***)- Bonus to Int and Hellfire Blood is awesome. No as good as Eladrin or Elf

Level One

God-Killer, Level 1 Eladrin Wand Wizard
Str: 8
Dex: 18 (16+2)
Con: 10
Int: 18 (16+2)
Wis: 12
Cha: 12

Skills:
Whatever 3 you want from Class List
Arcana (Required)
Stealth (From Eladrin Training)

Feat:
Toughness

At Will: (Difficult Choices....)
Illusionary Terrain
Scorching Burst (Switching to Thunderwave at 11)

Encounter: Force Orb (As much as I hate to say this, damage is your primary concern at this level. Your debuffs are weak, so this or burning hands is best for you.)

Daily: Flaming Sphere (Add Sleep to your spellbook. Sleep is great, but we don't have Orb mastery yet )

Levelling to 10

Level 2:
Feat: Armor Prof (Leather)
Util: Shield

Level 3:
Encounter: Freezing Rays

Level 4:
+1 to Int/Dex
Feat: Skill Focus(Stealth)

Level 5:
Daily: Bigby's Icy Grasp (add Web)

Level 6:
Util: Levitate (Hurray! Your first "fly" spell)
Feat: Skill Training (Perception)

Level 7:
Encounter: Winter's Wrath

Level 8:
+1 to Int/Dex
Feat: Alertness

Level 9:
Daily: Wall of Fire (Add Ice Storm)

Level 10:
Util: Blur
Feat: Improved Init

Level 11

God-Killer Level 11 Wand Wizard/Blood Mage
Str: 9
Dex: 21
Con: 11
Int: 21
Wis: 13
Cha: 13

Vital Skills at:
Stealth at +18
Perception at +13

Feats:
Toughness, Improved Init, Skill Focus(Stealth), Skill Training (Perception), Arcane Reach (replaces Alertness), Armor Prof (Leather), Resounding Thunder

At Will:
Illusionary Terrain
Thunderwave

Encounter: Blood Pulse, Force Orb, Freezing Rays, Winter's Wrath
Util: Shield, Levitate, Blur
Daily: Bigby's Icy Fist, Flaming Sphere, Wall of Fire

This is the level you start getting really good. Here's some ideas:
Blood Pulse (with Bolstering Blood), AP, Thunderwave--> Next turn Thunderwave.

Or Icy Grasp, AP, Blood Pulse(with BB), Move Hand 6--> Move hand 6, Move Hand 6
Each square your enemy leaves deals him d6+2d10(But same value every time). That means that each move 6 deals on average 14.5*6=87 damage.

Levelling to 20

Level 12:
Util: Soul Burn
Feat: Spell Focus

Level 13:
Encounter: Replace Force Orb with Thunderlance

Level 14:
+1 to Dex/Int
Feat: Danger Sense

Level 15:
Daily: Replace Flaming Sphere with Bigby's Grasping Hands(add Wall of Ice to spellbook though)

Level 16:
Util: Displacement
Feat: Seize the Moment

Level 17:
Replace Icy Rays with Ice Tomb

Level 18:
+1 to Str/Dex
Feat: Great Fort

Level 19:
Replace Wall of Fire with Evard's Black Tentacles

Level 20:
Daily: Gain Destructive Salutation
Feat: Pact Initiate

Level 21

God-Killer Level 21 Wand Wizard/Blood Mage/Demigod
Str: 10
Dex: 24
Con: 14
Int: 26
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Vital Skills at:
Stealth at +25
Perception at +17

Feats:
Toughness, Improved Init, Skill Focus(Stealth), Skill Training (Perception), Arcane Reach, Armor Prof (Leather), Resounding Thunder, Spell Focus, Danger Sense, Seize the Moment, Great Fort, Pact Initiate, Spell Accuracy

At Will:
Illusionary Terrain
Thunderwave

Encounter: Blood Pulse, Winter's Wrath, Thunderlance, Ice Tomb
Util: Shield, Levitate, Blur, Soul Hunger, Displacement
Daily: Bigby's Icy Fist, Bigby's Grasping Hands, Evard's Black Tentacles, Destructive Salutation

At this level, your big short range nuclear Bomb is Thunderlance. It hits a 6x6 area up to 2 squares away, and assuming you have Blood Pulse up, deals, 4d6+Int+4(2d10+1d6), average damage 80.

Bigby's Graping Hands hits two people, and if you have blood pulse up, you can deal 2d10+7 when you grab them, and then move them up to 20 squares to slam into each other. Even if they're only 6 squares away, they each move 6. Assuming a distance of 10, you can deal 2d10+7+10(1d6+2d10). Average damage 163.

Bigby's Icy hand is easier to use. Again average damage is 87 per 6 squares. You can move him up to twice per turn (3 times with an AP)(And 3 times with an easy to get and inexpensive, encounter use item).

Levelling to 29

Level 22:
Util: Timestop (or Mass Fly if you're the only person in your group with the ability to get it)
Feat: Arcane Mastery

Level 23:
Encounter: These powers are a little... meh. Replace Winter's Wrath with Acid Storm

Level 24:
+1 to Int/Con
Feat: Acolyte Power(Replace Acid Storm with Spiteful Darts)

Level 25:
Daily: HERE IT IS! Elemental maw! Decimate everything within Burst 2 once per day! (2 times if you burn an action point) Replace Bigby's Grasping Hands (unless you can house rule it to allow you to move the hands 6 squares like Icy Grasp) with Elemental Maw.

Level 26:
Util: Divine Regen
Feat: Second Implement (Staff)
*Note* This level is where it gets insane. Get Solitaire (Violet), and burn the AP to get your Daily back every encounter.

Level 27:
Encounter: Replace Ice Tomb with Confusion

Level 28:
Feat: Combat Anticipation
+1 to Int/Con

Level 29:
Daily: Replace with Evard's Black Tentacles with Legion's Hold

Final Stats

God-Killer Level 30 Wand Wizard/Blood Mage/Demigod
Str: 10
Dex: 24
Con: 16
Int: 28
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Vital Skills at:
Stealth at +30
Perception at +22

Feats:
Toughness, Improved Init, Skill Focus(Stealth), Skill Training (Perception), Arcane Reach, Armor Prof (Leather), Resounding Thunder, Spell Focus, Danger Sense, Seize the Moment, Great Fort, Pact Initiate, Spell Accuracy, Arcane Mastery, Acolyte Power, Combat Anticipation, Second Implement (Staff), Lightning Reflexes

At Will:
Illusionary Terrain
Thunderwave

Encounter: Blood Pulse, Spiteful Darts, Thunderlance, Confusion
Util: Shield, Levitate, Blur, Soul Hunger, Displacement, Time Stop, Divine Regeneration
Daily: Bigby's Icy Fist, Elemental Maw, Legion's Hold, Destructive Salutation

Elemental Maw is the nuke here: once they get caught in the "eye", teleport them 20 squares up, dealing 9d6+9+10d10 (from falling)+20(d6+2d10). Average damage 385.5 to all within burst 2 (without any items).

Bigby's Icy hand is your solo killer. While in the hand he can't do anything, and it's quite easy to cast Bigby's Icy Hand--> next round, Blood Pulse, Move 6, Time Stop, Move 6, Move 6, Burn AP gain Time Stop back, Move 6, Move 6, Use belt with Extra Move action, Move 6. 522 damage in 1 turn. Now, assuming your Ref is sky high like Gkers is, you'll probably hold him for a while. Next turn, Move 6, Move 6. Next Turn (soul hunger if you aren't 30 yet), Blood Pulse, Move 6. Next turn Move 6, Move 6. Over those turns, the monster is totally helpless, and you delt 957 damage. You can go on for a while like this if you're demigod. And if the monster DOES hit you, use displacement.




The Equipment Guide and Updates and Final Number Crunch are below Subedei's Post
You're right. All of the Orb Wizards should be Wizards in my example should be Wand Wizards. We have enough passive save penalties that the Orb is not as important now. The Wiz as a secondary attribute with a -2 penalty should be perfectly sufficient. Missing is going to be more a concern than them making their save.

Dex also gives us more initiative and more stealth. And what are the best vehicles to deploy nuclear missiles from? B-2s and submarines; stealthy vehicles!

This brings up another point. Superior stealth capabilities often means you get a surprise round regardless of how your initiative compares, meaning stealth is more important than initiative. Thankfully they have the same attribute dependency, so we can get TWO extra rounds on our opponents through a surprise round and superior initiative. If stealth is so effective, then it is important to be adequately defended against it.

Thus Perception, and thus Wisdom are extremely important as well.

So ALL members of your party need decent dex, need to be trained in Stealth, and need to have Skill Focus in stealth. At least two members of your party need to have decent wisdom, need to be trained in perception, and need skill training in perception.

Both stealth and perception are vital areas of optimization!

That said, I think Githyanki is about even with Eladrin.
Equipment Guide

Armor: Veteran, Shadowflow armors are both great.

Orbs: Orb of Insurmountable Force- Awesome with blood pulse. Try it with Thunderblast. It now can push anywhere from 5-10 squares.

Wand: Any wand will do, but you need at least 1 (because you need it for the Wand of Accuracy feature).

Boots: Boots of Eagerness are pure awesomeness. An extra move? For only 4,200 gp? Yummy. Boots of Quickness are also great for making sure Bigby's Hand is an auto-kill. Boots of teleportation are great for getting away.

Hands: Gauntlets of the Ram. +1 to push? Get it, no questions asked.

Head: Clockwork Cowl (I'll take an extra time stop any day), Phrenic Crown is good for imposing -saves

Neck: Cloak's of Displacement and Distortion are good

Rings: Opal Ring of Remembrance is godly (+2 to attack! and a decent daily! Tis crazy!). Ring of Ramming is also good (who doesn't want to push an extra square: Anyone know if wearing two of these can buff distance pushed by 2?)

Wonderous: Solitare (Violet), Mummied Hand

Strategies and Some Number Crunching

Assuming you have the Orb of Insermountable Force (appropiate +) and Thunderwand (appropiate +), Boots of Eagerness, any (appropiate +) Amulet, a Taclord (with appropiate int), and Veteran's Armor (appropiate +).

Level 11: At this level, you don't have a "Nuke" yet: you get a hand grenade. It's gonna hurt some people, but not decimate whole cities. It's just Winter's Wrath+Blood Pulse (usable on two turns, or 1 if you AP). Using Orb of IF+2, you can knock a target back 2 squares ( I'm a sad panda... don't worry it get's better in 2 levels). This deals in a burst 2 pattern 2d8+5+2+3(1d6+2d10)+2d6+7. Average Damage for 2 turns is, 73.5. It gets pretty good if you AP it though, dealing 73.5 damage this turn, 10 damage next turn (thanks to spending an AP) and possible damage after that. So you're basically hitting for 83.5 damage.

Your heat seeking missile is much more impressive. Using the Bloodpulse with Wand of Accuracy power (and CA), it's at +19 to hit 1 target, AP, +17 vs. Ref, and hit for 2d6+5+2+2d8+5+2. What get's scary is that for every move action you give up, you can deal 6(1d6+2d10) damage. Assuming in round 1 you give up your move action and use the belt of eagerness, you can deal an average of 204 damage, and the option to hit for another 174 damage next round.

Level 13 is where you get your first nuke, Thunderlance. You also are getting the Orb of IF+3. Combine these together with an AP, and push the target 8 sqaures in a burst 6 pattern. Your damage is 2d6+5+3+2+4d6+5+3+8(1d6+2d10)+10 damage next time the activate (if they do). Average damage, 175 to all within a 36 square region.

Level 18 is the next signifcant level. By this time, you have should have picked up a Ring of Ramming and a Orb of IF +4. Your Thunderlance combo is now hitting for 2d6+6+4+2+4d6+6+4+10(1d6+2d10)+10. Average damage, 198.

Level 22 is significant for your heat seeking missiles. Using the wand and an AP with a Taclord with a 22+ int, you are hitting at +29 with Bloodpulse and then at +29 with BIF. Damage is (assuming you use the Boots of Eagerness and Timestop is 2d6+7+5+2d8+7+5+24(1d6+2d10). Average Damage (in one round), is 388. You have the option of continuing this for another round, dealing an additional 174 damage.

Level 26 is the biggest level for this build. Getting a Solitaire (Violet) is of the highest priority. With it, you can gain elemental maw back every battle. Damage for elemental maw (assuming you use Orb of IF+5 after you teleport the creatures) is 2d6+8+5+9d6+8+5+10d10 (from falling)+40(d6+2d10)+10+7(d6+2d10)= Average damage 796.5, and they are dazed and knocked prone and have 10 ongoing damage (radiation ). Assuming anything is left alive after this cataclismic bomb, they have one chance to hit back at you (assuming you don't have some other way like Blur to make sure they don't). Next round, follow up with a Thunderlance with deals 4d6+8+5+6(d6+2d10). Average Damage, 117 damage. Average Damage over these two rounds is 913.5. Now assuming you crit on one of these creatures, you have a dilemna, but if only a few things are left standing, I suggest recharging Elemental Maw. Otherwise (if you're facing a crap ton of solos because your DM is a sap), you can AP Destructive Salutation at this point, or just wait for next turn, blood pulse, next turn EM again. Even your saves are nasty, as with the Phrenic crown, you're imposing a -5 on most saves.

Fully Decked Out Level 30

God-Killer Level 30 Wand Wizard/Blood Mage/Demigod
Str: 10
Dex: 24
Con: 16
Int: 28
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Equipment:
Armor: Shadowflow Armor +6 (Leather)
Weapon: Dagger (for out of combat attacking each other, trying to get a crit.)
Orb: Orb of Insurmountable Force +6
Wand: Wand of Thunder +6
Hands: Gauntlets of the Ram
Feet: Zephyr Boots
Head: Phrenic Crown(-3)
Neck: Cloak of Distortion+6
Rings: Opal Ring of Remembrance and Ring of Ramming
Waist: Baldric of Valor
Wonderous: Solitaire (Violet)


Vital Skills at:
Stealth at +36
Perception at +22

Feats:
Toughness, Improved Init, Skill Focus(Stealth), Skill Training (Perception), Arcane Reach, Armor Prof (Leather), Resounding Thunder, Spell Focus, Danger Sense, Seize the Moment, Great Fort, Pact Initiate, Spell Accuracy, Arcane Mastery, Acolyte Power, Combat Anticipation, Second Implement (Staff), Lightning Reflexes

AC: 40 (43 when spending an AP) (45/48 when farther than 5 away)
Def (Ref): 42 (43 when spending an AP) (47 when farther than 5 away)
Def (Fort): 36 (37 with AP) (41 when farther than 5 away)
Def (Will): 33 (34 with AP) (38 when farther than 5 away)

At Will:
Illusionary Terrain
Thunderwave

Encounter: Blood Pulse, Spiteful Darts, Thunderlance, Confusion
Util: Shield, Levitate, Blur, Soul Hunger, Displacement, Time Stop, Divine Regeneration
Daily: Bigby's Icy Fist, Elemental Maw, Legion's Hold, Destructive Salutation

Elemental Maw is the biggest nuke, when combined with Blood Pulse. Once they get caught in the "eye", teleport them 20 squares up. The combo goes blood pulse AP elemental maw. Blood Pulse is at 32 (+34 assuming CA)(+41 assuming CA and Wand of Accuracy Power). Elemental Maw is at +33(+35 assuming CA)(+42 assuming CA and Taclord with +7 int). The whole combo, using Orb of IF with EM, deals 2d6+6+9+9d6+9+6+10d10 (from falling)+40(d6+2d10)+10 ongoing+8(d6+2d10). Average Damage 819.5 damage with 10 ongoing damage and Dazed and Prone. I thnk that's pretty nuclear.

EDIT: Damage is really 20(14.5)(from teleporting up)+2(14.5)(from being pulled into the center)+8(14.5)(from the Orb of IF)+55(from falling)+31.5(average of 9d6)+8(Int)+3(if the creature isn't resistant to thunder)+6=538.5, with 10 ongoing and Dazed and Prone.

Bigby's Icy hand is your solo killer. While in the hand he can't do anything, and it's quite easy to cast this combo: Bigby's Icy Hand--> next round, Blood Pulse, Move 6, Time Stop, Move 6, Move 6, Burn AP gain Time Stop back, Move 6, Move 6. Combo deals 2d6+9+6+2d8+9+6+30(2d10+1d6). 481 damage in 2 rounds, and the solo can't do anything.

Legion's Hold is the aftereffects of the nuclear bomb. While it's not a very good damage dealing spell, everyone within 20 is stunned, only recovering 25% of the time.

Destructive Salutation is an auto stun spell.

With your util and item's, you have a a F6 speed, but nobody outside of 5 squares can hit you 1 per day, and all the rest of the day, they are at -5. This is your stealthy airplane. While you need help in hitting your targets sometimes (base command/Taclord), when you have them in your sights, they are dead.
FAQ

You can't teleport up with Elemental Maw!

Yes I can

How are you going to make sure you hit all the time? You're attack can't be high enough to do that...
As with planes with nukes, you do need help hitting your target this time. The nuke isn't a stand alone build. It needs a Taclord or Cleric to be most effective.

What is the optimal party for the Nuke?
3 People:
Taclord/Blood Mage (Major Attack Buffs, minored Nuclear Bomb) OR Taclord/Battle Captain
Orb Wizard/Divine Oracle (Majored Stunner, Minor Attack Buffs: Sky High Perception Needed)
All must be stealthy

4 People:
Taclord /Battle Captain
Wizard/Divine Oracle
Wizard/WotST
All must be Stealthy

5 People:
Taclord /Battle Captain
Wizard/Divine Oracle
Wizard/WotST
Bleed Mage
All Stealthy
Yup, good points Subedei. already had stealth in mind. Good point about perception as well (I actually hadn't thought about skills too much outside of stealth).

I actually have to say that eladrin AND elves are better than Githanki, simply due to the fact that Githanki lack a dex bonus and while the elf is missing the int, he makes up with a bonus to Wis and a kick-ass Racial (which is much better than the Eladrin's or Githanki's)
Yeah, Elves are still better. I think Githyanki are pretty much even with Eladrin though, and may be better than elves in certain specific situations.

It also depends heavily on the situation, meaning the style of game. If you're allowed to dictate when all the encounters happen, then stealth is going to be better, and thus Eladrin is going to be better. If the DM largely determines when combat occurs and basically drops it on top of you, then Githyanki may be better due to the superior initiative (your stealth isn't helping you as much, so initiative becomes the thing that determines who moves first because there's no surprise round) and more HP.

But yeah, in the vast majority of cases Elf will be superior. Combat is going to be shorter, so that reroll may actually be better than the +1 to hit from having higher Int, and the movement and perception bonuses are awesome.

I've actually come to the conclusion that for fighting other players (and NPCs with similar stats to PCs) the Staff of Defense is actually better than the Orb. For fighting things purely from the Monster Manual Orb is still better, of course.
For the Ultra-Group, I think that Elf would be the best choice as well. Unfortunately, I want this build to be acceptable for the normal game as well... hence Eladrin and Orb. I'm not sure if Staff is actually better though. IIRC, it only affects AC, and chances are good in a nuclear showdown, you're going to be hit by a whole bunch a vs. reflex, will, and a few fort.

Fort is the only problem, and I plan on taking great fort to help combat that. Eladrin get a +1 bonus to Will, and Wizards get a +2, so with the final Will and Iron Will, it will be pretty close to the Ref.
The passive bonus only applies to AC, sure, but the encounter power applies it's bonus to any defense. The real question is whether you can afford enough Con to make it worthwhile. With 16 Con it's nearly as good as Shield, but I think you'll likely end up with 14 Con in Paragon, and I'm not sure that's quite worth it.
Yeah, that was what I was thinking (which is why I'm going Orb).

On the other hand, assuming your Taclord is multied into wizard, look at blur, and imagine the entire party blurred. Yup, game over.
Note on staff: You can get a cheap level 3 Defensive Staff (from AV) which adds a persistent +1 to all 3 defenses and 1 AC (all item bonuses). You never have to upgrade it either.


I guess I just dont see the 'nuke'. 80ish damage at level 21 vs everything that you can hit with 2 attacks, one Close attack, using 2d10 HPs and 1 action surge to do it, just doesn't seem all that uber. (Thunderwhatever plus blood pulse) The other attacks are mostly single target.

Don't get me wrong. Its a good combo, but better utilized with a party in a more conventional (get it? ha ha! I kill myself. /sigh) way.

Remember, with 2 attacks that have to hit to do the nuke... assuming a 50% hit rate, only 25% of the baddies will actually be affected by both. 50% will be hit with 1 of the 2 powers, and 25% will be unscathed. Human Action Surge would be helpful here.

You could perhaps use some items that enhance push attacks to pump this up? Theres a few new things in AV that may be able to help. I think there is a force staff and a few other items that enhance pushes.

Note: This technique also relies that the 2d10 happens for EVERY square moved. There is some debate on this, as a push 4 may just do 1d6 times 4 plus the 2d10. Nothing specifically seperates each 1 square portion of the push as a seperate damage-dealing entity.


A wizard sneaking in alone to use this attack seems like a bad idea. Sure, you do lots of damage, but you wont actually kill anything. Your party will be too far away to really help you, so the counter attack will be lethal.




I would think that an orb-based WotSC would actually be more of an uber nuke. Use Cunning Weapon, and the -X to saves for Will attacks and spell focus for a large penalty to saves for ALL targets affected. Use Orb for bonus hozing vs the solo/elite.
Perma-stunlocking (or close to it) for a majority of enemies through Prismatic Spray or Legions Hold or Sleep just seems like a stronger nuke.
My Sorc Guide Link: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19649162/Joes_Sorcerer_Guide_AP_update_51509 My Genesi Wizard Blaster Link: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25082729/Miniguide_to_Genesi_LightningThunder_Blaster_Wizard_%2806-2010%29
The idea isn't so much a single wizard sneaking in to smack an encounter with a spell or two and then run away. You're supposed to have a whole fleet of stealth bombers and an AWACS, and the idea is to leave nothing left to counterattack you.

Everyone in your party does AoE damage, and in the case of the Bloodmages it is a significant amount of AoE damage. So if you have 5 members of the party and they all have an attack capable of hitting all enemies in the encounter, then all enemies get hit 5 times in the surprise round. At higher levels those attacks are also going to stun.

So you sneak up, hit everything with AoE damage in the surprise run, roll initiative, win initiative, hit everything again, when the enemy turns come up their stunned, so you get to hit them all again (and stun them all again if need be) and at this point they're most likely dead.

In the DoT mage thread we talked about 16th level characters doing hundreds of points of damage to entire encounters. If multiple characters are capable of that, then you're looking at around a thousand points of damage in a round to everything. If you get to take 3 rounds before they get to act, then that's thousands of points of damage.

So your enemies are just sitting around, minding their own business when all of a sudden they get hit for 3,000 some damage out of nowhere. When the dust settles there either isn't anything left, or whatever is left is so hopelessly outnumbered that the battle can be ended without expending any more resources, and without any danger.

Stealth is your primary mode of defense, both through the stealth skill and through spells. You have little need for silly things like HP and AC because your enemies shouldn't get to attack you.

The only thing you really fear is another stealth bomber or nuclear sub lurking out there in the shadows. As such you try to harden yourself against those devastating AoE attacks and invest heavily in perception...and more stealth!

I think this is a very modern style of warfare that more traditional D&D parties (and encounters) can't really deal with.
I think this is a very modern style of warfare that more traditional D&D parties (and encounters) can't really deal with.

Yep, and once the guerilla lurkers have outdone the nuclear stealth bomber team, the party might consider playing something not as broken. good concept, yet entirely unplayable as a group.
Here be dragons: IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cydyvkj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c54g6ac/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/csw6fhj/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cbxbgmp/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cz7v5bd/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/ccg9eld/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/c8szhnn/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/cp68b5u/.gif)
56767308 wrote:
Sadly, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting Next to be a great game. It has to do with wanting Next to determine who won the Edition War. [...] For those of us who just want D&D Next to be a good game, this is getting to be a real drag.
57870548 wrote:
I think I figured it out. This program is a character builder, not a character builder. It teaches patience, empathy, and tolerance. All most excellent character traits.
Yep, and once the guerilla lurkers have outdone the nuclear stealth bomber team, the party might consider playing something not as broken. good concept, yet entirely unplayable as a group.

The stealth bomber team ARE gorilla lurkers. They're just armed with nuclear weapons instead of assault rifles or grenades or something silly like that.

I don't see why you think this isn't playable as a group. It's a superb component in group strategy. Not fun? Quite possibly. I think it'd make most encounters too easy to be fun.

Fun isn't really the issue here though. I usually say "don't optimize power, optimize fun" when suggesting what people should play. We're not talking about what people should play in your average campaign with lots of roleplaying and whatnot, we're talking about what the most effective strategy for winning is.
Thanks for clarifying. I get it now!


So wouldnt the numbers be a problem? With 4 or more sneaking members, that is 4 times the chance of someone messing up the stealth roll.

If that happens, the WHOLE GROUP gets caught.

The reason I bring it up, is that our rogue was sneaking and I wanted the ranger to join em. But that would have forced another stealth roll. Since the rogue had made the roll, we didnt wanna play "double or nothing". Statistically, we would not have gained anything.
Adding a 3rd member would have been "50% more, or nothing", which is a real loser...
In this case, "the more the merrier" doesnt work!
My Sorc Guide Link: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19649162/Joes_Sorcerer_Guide_AP_update_51509 My Genesi Wizard Blaster Link: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25082729/Miniguide_to_Genesi_LightningThunder_Blaster_Wizard_%2806-2010%29
Note on staff: You can get a cheap level 3 Defensive Staff (from AV) which adds a persistent +1 to all 3 defenses and 1 AC (all item bonuses). You never have to upgrade it either.


I guess I just dont see the 'nuke'. 80ish damage at level 21 vs everything that you can hit with 2 attacks, one Close attack, using 2d10 HPs and 1 action surge to do it, just doesn't seem all that uber. (Thunderwhatever plus blood pulse) The other attacks are mostly single target.

Don't get me wrong. Its a good combo, but better utilized with a party in a more conventional (get it? ha ha! I kill myself. /sigh) way.

Remember, with 2 attacks that have to hit to do the nuke... assuming a 50% hit rate, only 25% of the baddies will actually be affected by both. 50% will be hit with 1 of the 2 powers, and 25% will be unscathed. Human Action Surge would be helpful here.

You could perhaps use some items that enhance push attacks to pump this up? Theres a few new things in AV that may be able to help. I think there is a force staff and a few other items that enhance pushes.

Note: This technique also relies that the 2d10 happens for EVERY square moved. There is some debate on this, as a push 4 may just do 1d6 times 4 plus the 2d10. Nothing specifically seperates each 1 square portion of the push as a seperate damage-dealing entity.


A wizard sneaking in alone to use this attack seems like a bad idea. Sure, you do lots of damage, but you wont actually kill anything. Your party will be too far away to really help you, so the counter attack will be lethal.




I would think that an orb-based WotSC would actually be more of an uber nuke. Use Cunning Weapon, and the -X to saves for Will attacks and spell focus for a large penalty to saves for ALL targets affected. Use Orb for bonus hozing vs the solo/elite.
Perma-stunlocking (or close to it) for a majority of enemies through Prismatic Spray or Legions Hold or Sleep just seems like a stronger nuke.

Hey you wanna know a secret?

A deep dark secret?

One NO ONE knows about?

I'll tell you

Lean Closer

Even Closer

Almost there

A tad more....

Well....

You see...

....

I WASN'T ****ING FINISHED!


80 Damage isn't a ton, you're right. But it's 2 encounter powers, what did you expect? Without my Equipment. (which will only add around 20-25, but still)

Seriously. I have dailies for when I want to kill someone.

Also, like I said at the top of the bleeping post, it really becomes a NUKE at level 25, when you get Elemental Maw. Take a chill pill. You can't fire a nuke until you gain some power, but 600+ damage to all within burst 2 is nasty.










I WASN'T ****ING FINISHED!


80 Damage isn't a ton, you're right. But it's 2 encounter powers, what did you expect? Without my Equipment. (which will only add around 20-25, but still)

Seriously. I have dailies for when I want to kill someone.

Also, like I said at the top of the bleeping post, it really becomes a NUKE at level 25, when you get Elemental Maw. Take a chill pill. You can't fire a nuke until you gain some power, but 600+ damage to all within burst 2 is nasty.

Ha! Clever use of spoiler boxes.

Yeah, I guess it was unfinished when I responded. However, I think it would have helped considerably if you had actually mentioned Elemental Maw as the ultra combo.



Anyways, I dont think that will actually work.


1) I seriously doubt elemental maw lets you teleport things up in the air. Wasnt there a cavaet somewhere about when teleporting baddies that you have to put em somewhere with solid ground on their feet?
Just like with pushes, you cant push something into the air.

Otherwise the spell would be stupidly overpowered. I mean really... you seriously expect a DM to ok adding 20d6 to everything in a 5x5 area, on top of all the other damage? Cmon...

Plus, everyone would teleport baddies off of cliffs or in underground pockets or over the lava.


2) If you cant teleport them up, then the Blood Pulse fails. You can teleport em way far off, but they have only 'left a single square', which is what pulse is triggered off of. Hence they take 1d6 plus the bolstering.
My Sorc Guide Link: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19649162/Joes_Sorcerer_Guide_AP_update_51509 My Genesi Wizard Blaster Link: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25082729/Miniguide_to_Genesi_LightningThunder_Blaster_Wizard_%2806-2010%29
Ha! Clever use of spoiler boxes.

Yeah, I guess it was unfinished when I responded. However, I think it would have helped considerably if you had actually mentioned Elemental Maw as the ultra combo.



Anyways, I dont think that will actually work.


1) I seriously doubt elemental maw lets you teleport things up in the air. Wasnt there a cavaet somewhere about when teleporting baddies that you have to put em somewhere with solid ground on their feet?
Just like with pushes, you cant push something into the air.

Otherwise the spell would be stupidly overpowered. I mean really... you seriously expect a DM to ok adding 20d6 to everything in a 5x5 area, on top of all the other damage? Cmon...

Plus, everyone would teleport baddies off of cliffs or in underground pockets or over the lava.


2) If you cant teleport them up, then the Blood Pulse fails. You can teleport em way far off, but they have only 'left a single square', which is what pulse is triggered off of. Hence they take 1d6 plus the bolstering.

Why wouldn't it? There's no place that says "When you teleport something, they must land on ground". It's what makes moves that move you so powerful.

Besides, elemental maw is the only power in the entire PHB that allows you to teleport them THAT far.

I did mention at the top that the build doesn't become a nuke until level 25.

Ok, let's look at it this way, if your DM doesn't allow you to teleport up. Use Blood Pulse-->Elemental maw and teleport them to 3 or so squares away from you. Use spiteful darts. Use the orb that allows you to knock people back farther. Congrats, you just knocked them back 18 squares and dealt 4d8+18(1d6+2d10). Over two turns, that's about 310 Damage. More than enough to kill any non-elite or non solo.
Well crud. I gotta hand it to you. Customer Service agrees with the Elemental Maw teleport cheeze!


Wizard:p.167; Elemental Maw

Q: For the teleportation effect of Elemental Maw (in addition, you teleport that creature to a square within 20 squares of you), can you teleport the target vertically? For instance, can you in that case teleport the target 20 squares into the air, causing them to fall and take another 10d10 falling damage?

A: Yes, you may teleport that creature vertically.

http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.php/4E_Customer_Service_Answers#Wizard:p.167.3B_Elemental_Maw



Nuke away!
My Sorc Guide Link: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19649162/Joes_Sorcerer_Guide_AP_update_51509 My Genesi Wizard Blaster Link: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25082729/Miniguide_to_Genesi_LightningThunder_Blaster_Wizard_%2806-2010%29
The less contraversial Blood Pulse Uber-cheese involves using the Gravity of the Moment spellscarred power. When you hit, you get to move slide the target 15 spaces and 10 on a miss. You then get to maintain the power each round for an additional 10 squares of movement. It gets really nasty if the whole party mutliclasses spellscarred so everyone can drag the solo 10 squares through the Blood Pulse. Throw in Burning Bloode for an extra 2d10 per party memeber's turn.

Plus, you can just have everyone bring a few low-level Veteran's Armors to recover Gravity of the Moment multiple times per day.
*Pained expression on face* Gah, I knew about this power already... and I've been struggling about including it or not...but... I don't know. If it was a lower level power, then by all means, I would take it. If it was a burst 2 (or even burst 1), again I would do anything to fit it in. But as it is, I'm in serious agony of whether or not to actually take it. I've already multied into warlock for spiteful darts (which is actually a great power for this build, allowing you to push 12 on a hit).

Damn, I just don't know.
The free 10 squares movement every round is nasty.
Sigh...I don't know why people are still "Optimizing" Blood Mage. We know. It's Broken as Hell. Why make more Threads about it?

Anyways, sorry it's not On Topic, I just had to ask.
Resident Logic Cannon
Sigh...I don't know why people are still "Optimizing" Blood Mage. We know. It's Broken as Hell. Why make more Threads about it?

Anyways, sorry it's not On Topic, I just had to ask.

We all know that murder pinball is quite easy to accomplish. What I'm trying to do is make a Wizard that can destroy everything in 1 cataclismic spell. If that means utilizing blood mage, I'm all for it.

It's actually been much harder than I thought, because I've been trying to optimize so many things and wizards have about 4 AOE push spells, or even AOE spells that deal a respectable amount of damage. Yes, the build is awesome at level 25! But I'm trying to find a way (other than a stunlocker) to make a wizard be able to knock out ALL competition (besides elits/solos) with a single fell blast (well, two and an AP) by level 13.

Good enough answer?
Well crud. I gotta hand it to you. Customer Service agrees with the Elemental Maw teleport cheeze!


Wizard:p.167; Elemental Maw

Q: For the teleportation effect of Elemental Maw (in addition, you teleport that creature to a square within 20 squares of you), can you teleport the target vertically? For instance, can you in that case teleport the target 20 squares into the air, causing them to fall and take another 10d10 falling damage?

A: Yes, you may teleport that creature vertically.

http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.php/4E_Customer_Service_Answers#Wizard:p.167.3B_Elemental_Maw



Nuke away!

Thanks for the link joemamma, I'll be sure to post it in my thread in the FAQ.
Well crud. I gotta hand it to you. Customer Service agrees with the Elemental Maw teleport cheeze!

Don't forget they also take falling damage :D

(Right?)

Veteran's Armor, anyone?

Sigh...I don't know why people are still "Optimizing" Blood Mage. We know. It's Broken as Hell. Why make more Threads about it?

The question now is: how broken?

After all, we didn't stop making Hulking Hurler builds until we could blow entire planets up in one shot. (At which point we ran out of ideas for things to explode, if i remember correctly.)
LOL. Broken is Broken, no matter the extreme. :P

But, yes, trying to see the limits of it is the intent of the CO Boards, so that's just fine. Good luck!


And yeah, they take the falling damage. :D
Resident Logic Cannon
Glad you see that CL... we already have a way to play murder pinball with 1 guy, now it's time to do it to 25.

Already had falling damage, but the funny thing is.... it's only an average of 55 damage.
deleted.
I had some questions about the numbers you had and was wondering if I was missing something.

Elemental Maw is the nuke here: once they get caught in the "eye", teleport them 20 squares up, dealing 9d6+9+10d10 (from falling)+40(d6+2d10). Average damage 666.5 to all within burst 2. Even if you DM says that bolstering blood does not count for every tick of blood pulse, it's still 235.5 Damage (but according to CustServ, that's the way it works).

using just your numbers I got...
9d6=31.5
9=9
10d10=55 avg
40(d6+2d10)=360 avg

total average of 455.5

I wasn't sure where the numbers came from so I parsed it out some...

pulse =2d6+int(etc)
maw1= 6d6+int(etc) 2 squares moved
maw2= 3d6+int(etc) 20 squares moved
drop= 10d10
bolstering blood on the blood pulse=23x2d10
pulse movement=22d6
int=18x3


33d6+56d10+54
which equals 115.5+308+54
or 477.5 avg damage


*side note, int(etc)= (focus)3+ (implement)6+ (stat)9=18

while still pretty nice damage, I'm not sure how you got in the 600's

The only way I could see it is if you calculated the maw moving the target 20 squares and then fell 20 squares, however the maw specifically teleports the target to the new location rather than traveling through the intervening spaces.

I would appreciate any clarification.

Bigby's Icy hand is your solo killer. While in the hand he can't do anything, and it's quite easy to cast Bigby's Icy Hand--> next round, Blood Pulse, Move 6, Time Stop, Move 6, Move 6, Burn AP gain Time Stop back, Move 6, Move 6, Use belt with Extra Move action, Move 6. 522 damage in 1 turn. Now, assuming your Ref is sky high like Gkers is, you'll probably hold him for a while. Next turn, Move 6, Move 6. Next Turn (soul hunger if you aren't 30 yet), Blood Pulse, Move 6. Next turn Move 6, Move 6. Over those turns, the monster is totally helpless, and you delt 957 damage. You can go on for a while like this if you're demigod. And if the monster DOES hit you, use displacement.

The main question I had about this was the bigbys spell, does it automatically grab or does it need a separate test? also normally moving a grabbed target requires a strength test, is that bypassed by the spell? And if so is that documented anywhere? If a test is still required what stat is used for that?
I had some questions about the numbers you had and was wondering if I was missing something.



using just your numbers I got...
9d6=31.5
9=9
10d10=55 avg
40(d6+2d10)=360 avg

total average of 455.5

I wasn't sure where the numbers came from so I parsed it out some...

pulse =2d6+int(etc)
maw1= 6d6+int(etc) 2 squares moved
maw2= 3d6+int(etc) 20 squares moved
drop= 10d10
bolstering blood on the blood pulse=23x2d10
pulse movement=22d6
int=18x3


33d6+56d10+54
which equals 115.5+308+54
or 477.5 avg damage


*side note, int(etc)= (focus)3+ (implement)6+ (stat)9=18

while still pretty nice damage, I'm not sure how you got in the 600's

The only way I could see it is if you calculated the maw moving the target 20 squares and then fell 20 squares, however the maw specifically teleports the target to the new location rather than traveling through the intervening spaces.

I would appreciate any clarification.




The main question I had about this was the bigbys spell, does it automatically grab or does it need a separate test? also normally moving a grabbed target requires a strength test, is that bypassed by the spell? And if so is that documented anywhere? If a test is still required what stat is used for that?

Average of 2d10 is 11. Average of d6 is 3.5. 40*14.5=580.
580+55 falling= 635

635+other mods =666. :D

For the Bigby question, the spell automatically grabs the target (the target can escape by hitting your Ref Def). As long as he is grabbed, you can move the hand 6 squares. Because the monster is grabbed, he also moves 6.
The question now is: how broken?

After all, we didn't stop making Hulking Hurler builds until we could blow entire planets up in one shot. (At which point we ran out of ideas for things to explode, if i remember correctly.)

How did you work out what damage you actually needed to do to destroy a planet?

Edit I would delete this post but then it would just be a empty area...
Average of 2d10 is 11. Average of d6 is 3.5. 40*14.5=580.
580+55 falling= 635

635+other mods =666. :D

For the Bigby question, the spell automatically grabs the target (the target can escape by hitting your Ref Def). As long as he is grabbed, you can move the hand 6 squares. Because the monster is grabbed, he also moves 6.

Blood Pulse

A mote of crimson plasma springs from your hand, streaks across the battlefield, and detonates amid your enemies, covering them in a blood-red shroud.
Encounter Arcane, Implement
Standard Action Area burst 3 within 20 squares
Target: Each enemy in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Hit: 2d6 + Intelligence modifier damage, and until the end of your next turn the target takes 1d6 damage for every square it leaves.

elemental maw...
In addition, you teleport that creature to a square within 20 squares of you. The creature arrives at its destination prone and dazed until the start of your next turn.

The target doesn't leave 40 squares, it leaves the one it teleports from than falls 19 more eventually landing in the 20th square.

20x14.5=290
He's right, because though Teleporting does count as "Moving" per se, it doesn't count as actually leaving each square from where you started.
Resident Logic Cannon
How did you work out what damage you actually needed to do to destroy a planet?

I believe the methodology was to calculate the amount of damage required to destroy a known quantity of iron, then multiply by the total volume of the earth. It worked out to millions and millions of points of damage, of course, but doable by the Hulking Hurler as long as you could find a big enough rock to throw.

I suspect that post is still somewhere in the 3e char opt forum if you want to dig around.

Also, unlike most movement with Blood Pulse, teleportation only counts the one square (as people have been saying). Blood Pulse counts how many squares you leave, which is one. (And then more when you drop to the ground, but only one by default.) That's different from a 20 square slide, for instance.
Yes, I was told that recently.

The damage really should be 20(14.5)(from teleporting up)+2(14.5)(from being pulled into the center)+8(14.5)(from the Orb of IF)+55(from falling)+31.5(average of 9d6)+8(Int)+3(if the creature isn't resistant to thunder)+6=538.5.

Still pretty nuclear.

Edited Main Build.

Do you think that this should be put up in the Optimization Library?
Edited Main Build.

Do you think that this should be put up in the Optimization Library?
Just found this build. Man, D&D players can be a SCARY bunch of people.

Question: anything preventing Bigby's Icy Grasp from moving creatures UP? As your solo-killer, could Bigby's Icy Grasp move the grabbed creature steadily up into the air until it was shaking the creature at 20 squares above the floor? Then when you're done shaking, just let go as a free action and you get an additional 20 squares of damage, wouldn't you?

I don't know if that would work or not; I'm probably missing something somewhere...
Just found this build. Man, D&D players can be a SCARY bunch of people.

Question: anything preventing Bigby's Icy Grasp from moving creatures UP? As your solo-killer, could Bigby's Icy Grasp move the grabbed creature steadily up into the air until it was shaking the creature at 20 squares above the floor? Then when you're done shaking, just let go as a free action and you get an additional 20 squares of damage, wouldn't you?

I don't know if that would work or not; I'm probably missing something somewhere...

Bigby's Icy Grasp is technically Forced Movement, and Forced Movement can never lift a creature off the ground.
Resident Logic Cannon
As long as he is grabbed, you can move the hand 6 squares. Because the monster is grabbed, he also moves 6.

Half of the build seems to hinge on this, which is false. The grab action says it ends if you move away from the target of your grab. Nothing about the Bigby's spell says it bypasses this restriction. It says you can move the hand, but does not say you can move the target.

So, if you cast Bigby's and it grabs your target, and then you spend a move action to move the hand away, the grab is ended, and the hand moves away - same as any other character.
Note: There is an action (standard action) to move someone you have grabbed - but the spell does not let you perform that action. You can only move the hand, or have it attack (and grab) someone else, or sustain a grab.

Even if you could, its a standard action to drag a creature, not a move action, so the writeup about getting a lot of move actions would need some work.
Q: For the teleportation effect of Elemental Maw (in addition, you teleport that creature to a square within 20 squares of you), can you teleport the target vertically? For instance, can you in that case teleport the target 20 squares into the air, causing them to fall and take another 10d10 falling damage?

A: Yes, you may teleport that creature vertically.

Which is the exact opposite answer from when I asked them the same question.

I think that you have to be able to teleport to a surface that can support you.
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